How to explain the basic eight letters?

[Economica]

Hi INTPs

I'm really envious of your precision with language and concepts.

At CelebrityTypes we recently redid our about page, but we're dissatisfied with the blurbs around the basic eight letters.

We're reasonably satisfied with our blurbs for E/I and T/F.

But we could use some suggestions for how to improve our blurbs for S/N and J/P.

In particular, N can sound a little too much like P to the newcomer, just like S can sound a little too much like J.

Also, what are some good names for S / N and J / P?

The most intuitive for S / N would probably be abstract / concrete, but let's be honest: No one wants to self-identify as concrete, and it does kind of imply that abstracts are simply concretes with an extra layer. - Way to stack the deck for N-bias, right?

Similarly, what are some good single-word names for J / P ?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Architect]

On extroversion/introversion read Susan Cains book on the Power of Introversion. The key point is to compare them in terms of stimulation. Extroversion looks for external stimulation, introversion is toward self stimulation. Much better than something vague like "Extroversion is 'out there' and Introversion is 'in there', which has multiple interpretations.

A lot more could be said, however I think the premise is wrong. Taking a newcomer through the four letters is the root of many problems in MBTI, because everybody has all four letters in them. In particular, in their inferior which is the attractor point for a psyche they have their near opposite. This is why so many Sensors type themselves as intuitive, they hear from the letters that Intuition has to do with "Imagination" (a false understanding), and with intuition in the inferior (why so many sensors like religion) they consider themselves one. Just one example.

There is a way to package the functions in a manner that is palatable for beginners but you can figure that out.

 

[BigApplePi]

Tthe basic eight letters: ie TF SN JP

Hi INTPs

I'm really envious of your precision with language and concepts.

At CelebrityTypes we recently redid our about page, but we're dissatisfied with the blurbs around the basic eight letters.

We're reasonably satisfied with our blurbs for E/I and T/F.

But we could use some suggestions for how to improve our blurbs for S/N and J/P.

In particular, N can sound a little too much like P to the newcomer, just like S can sound a little too much like J.

Also, what are some good names for S / N and J / P?

The most intuitive for S / N would probably be abstract / concrete, but let's be honest: No one wants to self-identify as concrete, and it does kind of imply that abstracts are simply concretes with an extra layer. - Way to stack the deck for N-bias, right?

Similarly, what are some good single-word names for J / P ?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

I like this for remembering, but others may have better:

i/e- internal to the self/external to the self
T/F - order oriented/value oriented
S/N - sensual specifics/intuitive general
J/P - judgmental choosing/perceptive observing

Notice how this usage distinguishes:
i/e - boundary = the self
T/F - boundary = placement vs rating what is placed
S/N - narrow vs broad
J/P - directive vs observing

 

[Economica]

Thanks you two

As you know, we agree completely that "its not about the for letters." We take care to point this out in the very first question on the about page.

Yet we have never seen a function-based approach that was as easy on newcomers. Heck, even with the recent influx of people going "ITS ALL ABOUT THE FUNCTIONS, YOU NOOB!" whenever they see the eight basic letters, there is still mostly a poor understanding of the functions out there. People use a behavioral lens when gauging the basic eight letters and now that they've learned that "its about the functions" many of them just relay this behavioral method to the functions where that method does not belong at all.

But we get sidetracked.

Certainly, people longing for their repressed function might be part of the reason that Ss identify as Ns. But you don't see many ENTPs identifying as Si types. The phenomenon is much broader than that; it has to do with biased descriptions, bias amongst presenters, and cultural bias in general. If you go back to before WW2 you find a culture that was much more conducive to being a good Si type, for example, particularly in Europe.

There is a way to package the functions in a manner that is palatable for beginners but you can figure that out.

Are you sure?

We are aware that there have been several attempts in the recent year, but most of them have failed miserably.

Also, Susan Cain's book isn't so much about Jungian extroversion, but again more about behavioral factors. That's one reason she ends up with Obama as an introvert.

---

i/e- internal to the self/external to the self
T/F - order oriented/value oriented
S/N - sensual specifics/intuitive general
J/P - judgmental choosing/perceptive observing

Notice how this usage distinguishes:
i/e - boundary = the self
T/F - boundary = placement vs rating what is placed
S/N - narrow vs broad
J/P - directive vs observing

Thanks. We like "directive vs observing," we'll have to discuss using that.
Don't you find that some of your other terms make people not want to identify as Ss though?

 

[Paladin-X]

From my MBTI class lecture notes:

E vs I


S vs N


T vs F


J vs P


NOTE: S and Ns can both notice big picture & details, just as Ts and Fs can both come to logical or value decisions. However, Ss work from details up to the big picture, Ns work down. Fs consider people/tact first, then logic and Ts, vice-versa.

Simple guiding rule of thumb:

When in doubt...

E vs I choose I
S vs N choose N
T vs F choose F
J vs P choose P

 

[Economica]

Thanks

 

[BigApplePi]

Basic eight letters summarized

Yet we have never seen a function-based approach that was as easy on newcomers.

Need to add for newcomers or anyone: Experience with each type in spite of not knowing they are this type. How would you like to distinguish an ant from a termite or a circle from a square without ever having seen one?

i/e- internal to the self/external to the self
T/F - order oriented/value oriented
S/N - sensual specifics/intuitive general
J/P - judgmental choosing/perceptive observing

Notice how this usage distinguishes:
i/e - boundary = the self
T/F - boundary = placement vs rating what is placed
S/N - narrow vs broad focused vs generalizing
J/P - directive vs observing

Thanks. We like "directive vs observing," we'll have to discuss using that.

Don't you find that some of your other terms make people not want to identify as Ss though?

How about focused vs generalizing? Any other difficulties?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

In particular, N can sound a little too much like P to the newcomer, just like S can sound a little too much like J.

The issue is systemic, but I believe there's a workaround if you distribute the letters. If N seems too similar to P, and S seems too similar to J then just describe the different pairs.

SP
SJ
NP
NJ

 

[BigApplePi]

If N seems too similar to P, and S seems too similar to J then just describe the different pairs.

That does seem a problem. How can we distinguish?

1. One can have S and P as when looking at a big data file (S), just looking but not favoring any one datum over the other (P).

2. One can have N and J as when favoring (J) a broad (N) economic theory in a general way.