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Diagnosed as Schizoaffective

Black Rose

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This happened in August 2009.
I take medication daily and have a shot once a month.

invega sustenna
Abilify
clonazepam
clomipramine

Any input would be appreciated.
 
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Any input would be appreciated.
Are you looking for any specific input?

Interesting...

I've been diagnosed as schizoaffective as well, but I doubt its accuracy: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=14678

I believe I'm bi-polar with rapid cycling and mixed states (I only hallucinate in certain states) w/ PTSD. How frequently do you hallucinate, and what are they like?


I assume the injection is due to an inability to adhere to a normal pill-popping regime?

What was the sequence of events/medications that led you to clomipramine?

How's life without dopamine (or, considering Abilify, with limited dopamine activity)? I find I can't live without it. I need it. I'm not me without it.


I find myself able to cope fairly well using 50mg oral THC 5mg CBD in tincture and 1g ground harmala daily, but I've yet to figure out how to chemically derive energy/focus. I can deal with the dietary restrictions necessitated by harmala. Considering ethylphenidate.
 

Black Rose

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Are you looking for any specific input?

Interesting...

I'm not a pharmacologist so am ignorant of whats been happening during my treatment.

I've been diagnosed as schizoaffective as well, but I doubt its accuracy: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=14678

I think my coping mechanisms were seen as such, I doubt what they say about me.

I believe I'm bi-polar with rapid cycling and mixed states (I only hallucinate in certain states) w/ PTSD. How frequently do you hallucinate, and what are they like?

I don't hallucinate. Its more paranoia. I get freaked out when I cant decide what to do when stressed.

I assume the injection is due to an inability to adhere to a normal pill-popping regime?

What was the sequence of events/medications that led you to clomipramine?

In 2011 I broke my computer and was so I went out more on my bike. I became interested in looking through my childhood belongings and reorganizing them by timeline. When I was picked up by my therapist I had mist some of my sesions and I was cursing that he did not like so he stoped the car in the midle of the street so I got out and walk to Carles Jr. where I was acting manic. People there called an ambulance I I went to the psych ward and told them I didn't trust people and had been flushing my medication down the toilet.

How's life without dopamine (or, considering Abilify, with limited dopamine activity)? I find I can't live without it. I need it. I'm not me without it.

I did not know it did this.

I find myself able to cope fairly well using 50mg oral THC 5mg CBD in tincture and 1g ground harmala daily, but I've yet to figure out how to chemically derive energy/focus. I can deal with the dietary restrictions necessitated by harmala. Considering ethylphenidate.

...
 

The Introvert

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chemically derive energy/focus. I can deal with the dietary restrictions necessitated by harmala. Considering ethylphenidate.

What are the dietary restrictions for harmala? What is the harmala used for, exactly?

Not sure if this is good advice but I find that small amounts of caffeine are enough for me to get up and get going (and also help with focus). You know that I'm a dopamine machine :D

I'm talking a cup of hot tea in the morning. It's enough to get a little boost without the caffeine flush or feeling too angsty. Caffeine seems to affect me more strongly than other people though.
 
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Take everything I say with a grain of salt, as I only have experience with myself and really have no right to recommend treatment to others. Just George has a Pharmacy undergrad, so it might be a good idea to run some things by him. Having given this disclaimer:
I don't hallucinate. Its more paranoia. I get freaked out when I cant decide what to do when stressed.

In 2011 I broke my computer and was so I went out more on my bike. I became interested in looking through my childhood belongings and reorganizing them by timeline. When I was picked up by my therapist I had mist some of my sesions and I was cursing that he did not like so he stoped the car in the midle of the street so I got out and walk to Carles Jr. where I was acting manic. People there called an ambulance I I went to the psych ward and told them I didn't trust people and had been flushing my medication down the toilet.
The key to schizoaffective is consistent hallucination (stated by my psychiatrist and therapist in opposition to the psychologist's recommendation of schizoaffective), so if you're not hallucinating, there's possibly no need for an antipsychotic (your injection).

When you can't get anything done, is it because you can't focus? If so, then an increase in norepinephrine and/or dopamine (accomplished by ADHD drugs like adderall, and my ethylphenidate) may be beneficial. However there is risk that they might send you into mania, and your docs are attempting to reduce your dopamine with both your injection and your tricyclic antidepressant (clomipramine), so they probably won't like the idea.

If you can eliminate the schizo- prefix from your diagnosis (diagnostic testing can help with this. See my thread I linked earlier), you're probably looking at a panic/anxiety disorder possibly coupled with some form of mood disorder. This opens the door to dropping your injection and possibly the clomipramine, and possibly adding a mood stabilizer, and possibly adderall or wellbutrin (<-more likely to be prescribed than adderall). Possibly.

So it seems you do have a legit history of irrational behavior under stressful circumstances, which is likely associated with epinephrine (adrenaline). Clonazepam could still be useful here, but it may need to be swapped with something else if your other meds change.

Another route might be an MAOI combined with a compatible anti-anxiety med, but they have a lot of reactions with other medications and diet, some of which could legit kill you. They're usually a last resort. You'd have to change your entire med regime and diet (which is what I did with harmala).

Ultimately, if you believe your diagnosis to be incorrect, then the best thing to do may be to request a different doctor and bring up your concerns with them (and/or request diagnostic testing). This whole theoretical process would be made easier if you actively demonstrated
I'm not a pharmacologist so am ignorant of whats been happening during my treatment.

...
DO NOT screw with anything on your own unless you understand the pharmacology. :beatyou: At least wiki.
 
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What are the dietary restrictions for harmala? What is the harmala used for, exactly?

Not sure if this is good advice but I find that small amounts of caffeine are enough for me to get up and get going (and also help with focus). You know that I'm a dopamine machine :D
Harmala is an MAOI that perpetuates mono-amines by inhibiting the enzyme that breaks them down (anything that ends in "amine." Like dop-amine :D and hallucinogens). The problem is that the same enzymes break down serotonin, and excess serotonin leads to serotonin syndrome.

The dietary restrictions basically consist of avoiding proteins and processed food, because they're full of tyrosine which is converted to serotonin.

And I'd wager caffeine has such an effect on you because you're a caffeine lightweight. :D Wait until tolerance sets in, then you'll need 3 cups of coffee a day.
 

DIALECTIC

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I found caffeine to be an "amplifier" to whatever mood i am in. If i am already in an elevated mood, it will transport me into an even more elevated mood... If i am in a negative mood, it will make me even more depressed... If i am in a "neutral" mood, then it will do nohting for me no matter how many cups of coffee i have, however i might get side effects instead (anxiety, etc).

However lack of sleep + caffeine (+ loud ipod music) will often induce hypomania... Which will induce a crash a few days later...


I was diagnosed with type 2 bipolar a few years ago but i totally refused to take any of the medication i was prescribed for it as i didnt want to lose the best in me. Instead i changed my diet, i started supplementing, i basically got rid of all my friends as i slowly realized i had nothing in common with them any more as my neurosis were vanishing, i stopped drinking and taking drugs, i started meditating twice a day and sadly that's the worst part: i became a bit of a recluse...

I think medications for bipolar etc. are for people to adapt to an alredy predominant neurotic society. Neurotic society makes people neurotic, then when selected people (more sensitive) can't adapt they think they are going crazy when in fact it's society that has gone crazy to start with !
 

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I find myself able to cope fairly well using 50mg oral THC 5mg CBD in tincture and 1g ground harmala daily, but I've yet to figure out how to chemically derive energy/focus. I can deal with the dietary restrictions necessitated by harmala. Considering ethylphenidate.

Have you tried ethylphenidate yet yourself? Or are you saying you are considering experimenting with it in the future?

I've been off Adderall for almost 6 months (anxiety and mood swings were too bad) but my focus is terrible. Under stress it gets even worse. I'm hesitant to go back on stimulants and definitely will be avoiding Adderall in the future but concentration problems are so bad at the moment (coupled with working at home on contract = last-minute deadlines, more stress, more concentration problems) that I've been considering experimenting with ethylphenidate or nootropics in addition to sticking with some recent lifestyle/schedule/structure changes.

The irony of concentration problems triggered by anxiety being temporarily alleviated by stimulants is so very unfair and ridiculous.

ETA: Just researched; looks like this stuff is very similar to Adderall and so probably not the best idea for me.
 

just george

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Elo :) "pharmacy undergrad" lol what is this term? I prefer the term "has the body of knowledge, can't be fagged working as one" :D

Listen in all honesty, for a bit of grounding, I would suggest reading about how the DSM for psychology works and how it came about. The DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) is the reference book for psychological "illness", where the big brains in psychiatry get together and have a vote on what new mental conditions have been discovered.

I mean that literally by the way. They don't diagnose illness with brain scans or blood tests or anything solid, they simply get together at a conference and say "hey, do you guys have any patients who all have these 5 habits? if so, do you agree that it is an illness? Everyone who agrees say yae, everyone who disagrees say nay" and bam, just like that, a new "disorder" comes into being.

Then the drug companies come in and say "you know, this drug that we use to treat severely crazy people might be useful for the people who have this new disorder that you just invented - would you feel comfortable prescribing it to people?" and just like that, a drug regime has been established for a newly invented disorder with a drug that was not created for it.

One of the worlds best psychologists was on his death bed, and admitted how the whole system works. He said, flat out, that ADHD was a made up illness, and did not exist. How did he know? He invented it.

Anyway the reason that I am saying all of this is because I don't want you feeling as if you are sick, and that whatever these people are saying is gospel, because as soon as someone feels as if they are sick, especially with "mental illness", it sets off a completely new set of mental consequences where they feel like something is wrong with them, or that they aren't as good as other people, or that the only answer to their new problems is a little white pill in a box that, if you read the fine print, has side effects a hundred times worse than whatever is supposedly wrong.

Now, here's the important stuff about schizo affective disorder.

Back in the day, when it was first kind of identified (because they aren't sure that it exists let alone know how to treat it), it was viewed as an episodic thing ie people got attacks now and again. When they brought out the DSM 4 or whatever the latest one is, they classified it as an ongoing disorder, that required ongoing medication.

So lately, when people have been diagnosed with this thing, they have been bombed with medication. When the medication doesn't work, the big brains say "hey, lets give them more medication, without taking the other medication away" and before you know it, you're on 12 different medications, each of which interacts with other ones causing its own slew of mood/thought changes, and the whole thing becomes exponentially undecipherable.

So, you want to know what I think?

I think you should get a second opinion from a doctor who doesn't know what you were previously diagnosed with. Preferably in another country. Preferably someone with a conscience.
 
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Have you tried ethylphenidate yet yourself? Or are you saying you are considering experimenting with it in the future?

The irony of concentration problems triggered by anxiety being temporarily alleviated by stimulants is so very unfair and ridiculous.

ETA: Just researched; looks like this stuff is very similar to Adderall and so probably not the best idea for me.
It's um... sort of a hybrid between adderall and cocaine. I'm considering... :o (But it doesn't mesh with harmala. At all.) L-DOPA, on the other hand... :smoker:

I've also found L-theanine to be effective in conjunction with caffeine.
Elo :) "pharmacy undergrad" lol what is this term? I prefer the term "has the body of knowledge, can't be fagged working as one" :D
How else does one say "a pharmacist who isn't a real pharmacist yet possesses the same body of knowledge as a pharmacist"? :D
 

TimeAsylums

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Listen in all honesty...
Pretty much agree on all fronts and points about the ridiculousness of Psychology as a whole, it is pretty much the same scale to which we use typology on the forum - generalities and theories. Unfortunately people are affected by them in their daily lives and I imagine the medication must work for some majority of people.
 
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I mean that literally by the way. They don't diagnose illness with brain scans or blood tests or anything solid, they simply get together at a conference and say "hey, do you guys have any patients who all have these 5 habits? if so, do you agree that it is an illness? Everyone who agrees say yae, everyone who disagrees say nay" and bam, just like that, a new "disorder" comes into being.
My fMRI disagrees.
fMRI being code for "expensive test ordered to squeeze more money out of my insurance company and just happened to actually show some anomalies in my HPA axis."
Then the drug companies come in and say "you know, this drug that we use to treat severely crazy people might be useful for the people who have this new disorder that you just invented - would you feel comfortable prescribing it to people?" and just like that, a drug regime has been established for a newly invented disorder with a drug that was not created for it.
I find it interesting that drugs prescribed to treat schizoaffective reduce dopamine while I find benefit from excess dopamine... :D
Anyway the reason that I am saying all of this is because I don't want you feeling as if you are sick
Indeed. One of the benefits Da Blob brought to the table was that constant reminder to view a "condition" as a positive set of traits that the bulk of humanity just never gets to experience.
So, you want to know what I think?

I think you should get a second opinion from a doctor who doesn't know what you were previously diagnosed with. Preferably in another country. Preferably someone with a conscience.
:kodama1:
 

Black Rose

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I had an eeg test in 09
all they told me was that I was high in theta and had "microseizures"?
 

just george

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Pretty much agree on all fronts and points about the ridiculousness of Psychology as a whole, it is pretty much the same scale to which we use typology on the forum - generalities and theories. Unfortunately people are affected by them in their daily lives and I imagine the medication must work for some majority of people.
Lobotomies work pretty well for some majority of people.
 

just george

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I had an eeg test in 09
all they told me was that I was high in theta and had "microseizures"?
Ok this is how "microseizures" work.

The human brain functions in a certain way. The only way to figure out how the brain functions specifically is to build a giant machine full of very sensitive magnets, put a person inside, and use the sensitive magnets to figure out which bits of the human brain are working at a certain time.

So what they do is put a person in the machine and start monitoring which bits of the brain become magnetic at different times.

For example, they put a person in the machine and tell them to think about food. A certain part of the brain lights up, and so the scientists say "this part of the brain must be associated with delicious food! Igor, write that down!"

Then they put people in while they are sleeping and do the same thing, or watching a horror movie and do the same thing, or whatever it is, until finally, they have associated certain emotions/feelings with certain brain activity.

Before I continue, it is important to say that this is the crudest possible way to measure what is actually happening, since there is no way to figure out what each neuron is saying to the ones next to it while it is active, plus it only measures magnetism in the brain, and says nothing of the various radio signals sent out between neurons.

So anyway, at some point, they did some brain scans on people who had epilepsy, and noticed that during a seizure, pretty much the whole brain went active (and the person fell over and started drooling, which is generally perceived by medical professionals as being "bad").

In epilepsy, these seizures happen for quite a long time ie minutes or maybe an hour.

When people have "micro seizures", what is seen in the brain activity scan is that the whole brain fires just like people who have seizures, but the activity only lasts for a split second - and so the person doesn't fall down or start drooling.

So the brain scientists think "hang on, this person is having a mini seizure, surely this can't be good - lets tell this person that they've got a disorder" but in reality, a logical person (like me) would say "something is going on here that I don't quite understand, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the patient particularly detrimentally, since there is no falling down, no drooling, and the person seems to be functioning okay".

In fact, when they did tests on people on LSD, they found that the brain scans of these LSD tripping hippies were quite similar to people having seizures, and so I would go further and say "this person is experiencing a state of consciousness that I really, REALLY don't understand, because I personally have to pay some sketchy dude for my LSD, and this guy is getting their trip for free wtf".

So in short, your brain is firing all at once, for a tiny fraction of time. What does it mean? Dunno. Do the psychiatrists know? Nope. Does anyone know? Nope. Is it bad? Dunno. Would I worry? If there is no drooling and no falling over, then I would have to say...nope :)

In short, Da Blob is right. Your brain is doing things that we don't understand, and you are experiencing something that we can't see, or perceive meaningfully. How you view this is up to you, and your choices are simply to think 1) "I am sick, something is wrong with me, give me drugs that chemically kill those neural patterns" or 2) "I'm special, and tune into a channel that other people don't tune in to."

The whole micro seizure thing is fascinating btw, in terms of the tiny amount of time it happens in. Ever heard a poem by William Blake, where the first verse says:

To see a world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour

These micro periods of massive brain activity remind me of that, for some reason. Iiiiintersting :)
 

just george

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[/SIZE]Equating a lobotomy with medication will not solve the problems of Psychology.

That's the point.

When you do an analysis of what happens to peoples brains long term after exposure to common brain drugs, a chemical lobotomy is exactly what happens.

If you think of neurons as tiny light bulbs, what happens when you are on meds is that the meds causes the neurons to flick on off on off on off very quickly until finally, they don't flick on any more.

Other meds ruin the natural neurotransmitter/neuromodulator cycle/system so that those neurons don't work properly either, to cause a change in behaviour, and in many instances, dependancy.

I don't call that healing. I call it brain damage.

See, this is why I can't work in pharmacy. I can imagine what they'd say: "JG, you're not supposed to tell the patient that these don't work! You're supposed to sell it to them, take their money, and keep them alive long enough to pay my house off! wtf are you doing?! Stop healing people, it's bad for business!!"
 

TimeAsylums

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That's the point.

I don't call that healing. I call it brain damage.

As far as I'm aware, no one calls it "healing." It's a treating of the symptoms.

I literally have zero statistics to run by, but like I said, I imagine the overall outcome of the medicine is more beneficial than the costs (pros > cons). That is, there is probably some large amount of people who do experience the negatives of what you have mentioned, or what people call "zombied," but for the larger majority it helps keep them functional in society/self (by choice). If it didn't work with the majority, then it would be declared to not work.

From what I assume, you're advocating that every single person diagnosed with a psychological disorder not take their meds.
 

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As far as I'm aware, no one calls it "healing." It's a treating of the symptoms.

I literally have zero statistics to run by, but like I said, I imagine the overall outcome of the medicine is more beneficial than the costs (pros > cons). That is, there is probably some large amount of people who do experience the negatives of what you have mentioned, or what people call "zombied," but for the larger majority it helps keep them functional in society/self (by choice). If it didn't work with the majority, then it would be declared to not work.

From what I assume, you're advocating that every single person diagnosed with a psychological disorder not take their meds.

I don't think it's that simple.
These drugs are very new. My psychiatrist friend says that, while he would never tell a patient this, we are not even very sure how most of these meds work, just that they do...sometimes...and sometimes also not or with severe side effects. :confused:

I wish there were more funding for projects like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteria But it's expensive, experimental, etc.
 

TimeAsylums

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I don't think it's that simple.
These drugs are very new. My psychiatrist friend says that, while he would never tell a patient this, we are not even very sure how most of these meds work, just that they do...sometimes...and sometimes also not or with severe side effects. :confused:

I wish there were more funding for projects like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteria But it's expensive, experimental, etc.

err...sorry, I missed your point.
 

r4ch3l

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err...sorry, I missed your point.

That I do not believe the pros of the drugs have been proven logically or scientifically to outweigh the cons as they are still in an experimental phase. I believe we will have a better picture in 20 or so years as the people on these meds get older and more research is conducted.
 

Black Rose

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Amen Clinics uses spect scan.
How is a spect scan different than fMRI?
 

TimeAsylums

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That I do not believe the pros of the drugs have been proven logically or scientifically to outweigh the cons as they are still in an experimental phase. I believe we will have a better picture in 20 or so years as the people on these meds get older and more research is conducted.

Of course they're in the experimental phase, how else are we to know what happens besides testing them.

Anyway, I'm not claiming they have been logically or scientifically proven, as with the past few posts, they probably have a higher correlation/generality -> back to psychology again.

So what is your opinion then? Would you advocate that they stop taking their meds??
 

r4ch3l

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Of course they're in the experimental phase, how else are we to know what happens besides testing them.

Anyway, I'm not claiming they have been logically or scientifically proven, as with the past few posts, they probably have a higher correlation/generality -> back to psychology again.

So what is your opinion then? Would you advocate that they stop taking their meds??

It's complicated, and ultimately everyone has to choose for themselves based on the evidence and their own experiences. I have my opinions, but they are...just my opinions.

I think that there should be a better metric for diagnosing people instead of just taking a stab at diagnosis and then throwing meds at people, hoping they work, then endlessly adjusting or trying new ones when they don't work or the side effects are too much or the person does not like how they feel on them. It bothers me that psychiatrists put up a facade of expertise when, really, they do not know what the fuck is going on so much of the time.

ETA:
Also, this:
Indeed. One of the benefits Da Blob brought to the table was that constant reminder to view a "condition" as a positive set of traits that the bulk of humanity just never gets to experience.

Also intrigued by the tests animekitty and TheHabitatDoctor have done regarding brainwaves. I have shitty insurance and doubt such tests have never been brought up but I would be curious in learning more about them.
 

TimeAsylums

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I think that there should be a better metric for diagnosing people

Such as?

Sorry, it's not my intent to play devil's advocate or something stupid here, but is there a better system? Yes, the system now is completely shit, but is there an easier/better/more effective implementation?
 

r4ch3l

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Such as?

Sorry, it's not my intent to play devil's advocate or something stupid here, but is there a better system? Yes, the system now is completely shit, but is there an easier/better/more effective implementation?

I am not positive that there is, but I am also not sure that I agree that some of these disorders are negative things that need to be corrected. As I said above I am interested in learning more about the tests that animekitty and TheHabitatDoctor spoke of because that may (or may not) be a better way to get a more accurate and specific idea of what is happening with individuals if they believe the quality of their lives are so compromised that they want to try out medication.

What I have the biggest problem with is people being told they must take medication and that something is objectively wrong with them. In my opinion patients should have options beyond medication should they choose not to take it (therapy, crisis care, diet/lifestyle/supplement counseling). But if they are willing to experiment with medication because they hope it will work then they should be able to work with doctors to do that as well.

I wish I had better answers to many of my own questions regarding psychiatry, but...I do not. I change my mind about it often. There was a Charlie Rose [--I know, what am I, 80?--] segment that featured a panel of neurologists and psychiatrists that I may re-watch again as they spoke about some new treatments that seemed to be proving effective with less side effects.
 
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Also intrigued by the tests animekitty and TheHabitatDoctor have done regarding brainwaves. I have shitty insurance and doubt such tests have never been brought up but I would be curious in learning more about them.
My understanding of the mechanism doesn't extend much deeper than the fMRI wiki article. I was in a mixed state and under high stress at the time and apparently my brain was lighting up like a Christmas tree (the ones with blinkers :D). Basically my left frontal lobe was dead compared to my right, and my amygdala was going nuts.

I think this is much more of a PTSD thing than a bischizopsychopolarective thing though.

I only consented because I had a 10% co-pay on a highly subsidized Cadillac of a plan. :angel:
 

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As far as I'm aware, no one calls it "healing." It's a treating of the symptoms.

I literally have zero statistics to run by, but like I said, I imagine the overall outcome of the medicine is more beneficial than the costs (pros > cons). That is, there is probably some large amount of people who do experience the negatives of what you have mentioned, or what people call "zombied," but for the larger majority it helps keep them functional in society/self (by choice). If it didn't work with the majority, then it would be declared to not work.

From what I assume, you're advocating that every single person diagnosed with a psychological disorder not take their meds.
First, you are making the kind of assumptions that a nice person makes. Which speaks well of you, of course, because it means that you are a good natured sort of person.

However (and it's a giant however) the people who make the decisions regarding the judicious application of medicine are generally psychopaths. They simply don't care whether or not the drugs work - merely that they sell.

Your post opens up a few other issues also. You used the phrase "keep them functional in society", which sounds good on the surface, but begs the question "What is wrong here - the person, or the society?"

It is my opinion that our society is much sicker than the people in it, and so people use drugs in order to cope with a world that sucks.

Next, you called the drugs "meds". On what basis, precisely, are they "meds"? Because they come in a white box, out of a pharmacy? Lots of drugs came out of those same boxes, that ended up being deadly poisons.

The only way you can call a drug molecule a medicine is if you can prove that it works - and at this point in time, it cannot be proven that they work. In fact, I would say that the case for them not working is stronger than the case for them working, particularly when you critically examine the mode by which they are brought to market, and assigned a medical use.

I am not saying that people should go off their meds. I am saying that they might not be meds, and that the person may not in fact be sick.

In university I was taught judicious use of medication ie the right drug for the right illness. It is painfully obvious that both pieces of information are missing, and that right now, we are in the midst of one of the worst human catastrophes in history. People in the future are going to look back to our time in horror.
 

just george

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I don't think it's that simple.
These drugs are very new. My psychiatrist friend says that, while he would never tell a patient this, we are not even very sure how most of these meds work, just that they do...sometimes...and sometimes also not or with severe side effects. :confused:

I wish there were more funding for projects like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteria But it's expensive, experimental, etc.
I was taught the same thing. They said:

"we know what they do on the surface, in that they change the amount of dopamine/serotonin in the synapse - but as for what they do after that, we have no idea. All we know is that they seem to work after a while".

If you're doing a drug study on these kinds of medications and want to see which group was the placebo and which was the active, you know the easiest way? Don't ask the patient if the drug is working or if they feel better. Ask if they have side effects. The ones with the side effects are on the active drug. The ones without side effects are on the sugar pill.

There is no way on this planet I would ever ingest a modern psych drug. If a doctor offered me one (and I pray that one does) someone is going to have to call the police.
 

just george

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Of course they're in the experimental phase, how else are we to know what happens besides testing them.

Anyway, I'm not claiming they have been logically or scientifically proven, as with the past few posts, they probably have a higher correlation/generality -> back to psychology again.

So what is your opinion then? Would you advocate that they stop taking their meds??
Um. You're supposed to test the drug extensively before giving it to half a billion people.

What the drug companies have done is akin to checking if a bullet works by asking people to play russian roulette.

It's a multi billion dollar industry. Independent studies have shown that at least (at least!!!) 50% of all studies produced, of any kind, are corporate studies, and are wrong.

Walking into a doctors office, no matter how good he/she is, when the information given to them has a 50% chance of being a flat out lie designed to sell a drug is not good medicine.

And if the drug companies are willing to flat out lie about the drug - why on Earth would they spend money to fund studies that end up with the billion dollar drug being pulled off the market, with the multi billion class action launched shortly thereafter?

It's like asking a rabid dog to please not bite you. Good luck.

(also, in all seriousness, whats with the tiny font? I have a tiny headache now :( )
 

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Still nothing disagreed on, yet the question remains, what do you suggest is to be done about this? hm? As far as I can tell, your "solution" is simply to abstain from drugs altogether...
 

TimeAsylums

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Let it collapse.

Alright...so all you have to do is convince everyone (I imagine a nice google would show some nice statistics) who is currently on any prescribed medication to just stop...
//or cause anarchy

ENTPs are great at non practical solutions.
 

just george

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Amen Clinics uses spect scan.
How is a spect scan different than fMRI?

Okay the first example is where the machine picks up magnetic fields in the brain. When an electric current flows and charge moves around, a magnetic field is induced. Since the brain is full of neurons which are a lot like wires, with current pulsing down them, they induce a magnetic field.

If you create a machine that is a huge shielded chamber, then the only magnetism in the machine is coming from the electrical pulses from your body - so you tune the machine in to pick those up.

The spect scan uses 2 different methods at the same time to produce an image. The first method is by injecting a radioactive fluid into your body that emits radiation (gamma radiation), and so you can produce a picture by looking at which parts of your brain are radioactive.

Since the radioactive stuff they inject into you only lasts for a little while, that part of the machine is used to see where blood is flowing in the brain. What they're looking for is if there is some sort of injury, or if your blood vessels in some way stop blood getting to the part of your brain that isn't functioning, or if lots of blood is going to an area of your brain that is setting off the seizure.

Just quickly, for the sake of clarity, be aware that the brain works a bit like dominoes - if some of your neurons fire, it can cause a domino effect that excites other parts of your brain, that then excite others etc until the whole thing is buzzing. So if you find out which bit is the first domino falling over, you can start making a diagnosis of wtf is actually going on.

The other thing done in the spect scanner is that x rays (different to gamma rays) are shot through your brain in 3D ie a little arm moves an X ray pulsing device around your head in a circle. The x rays are picked up by sensors in a circle, and the information goes into a computer to reassemble an image of what is going on in that slice of the brain.

They scan lots of slices of your brain, put all those images together, and so you end up with a 3D model of what is going on. Technically speaking, its the same principle as taking a panoramic photo on your camera, and having your computer piece everything together. Except with x rays, because they penetrate through your body instead of bouncing off your skull.

So in short, the difference is that the magnetic testing looks at what your brain is actually doing, by looking at the magnetic fields that it is actually creating.

The spect scan, on the other hand, is taking a photo of the architecture of your brain ie how it is actually put together, as well as where blood is going in the brain.

spect scans are complicated though, in that when they put the radioactive fluid into your veins, they attach the radioactive particle to any molecule they so choose. For example if you wanted to see where cocaine goes in the brain, you attach radioactivity to the cocaine molecule, get the patient to snort it, and then see which bits of the brain glow with radioactivity. You then combine that with a magnetic scan and can say "look, when the cocaine finally makes its way to this part of the brain, it freaks out! therefore this is the bit excited by cocaine".

In your case, I have no idea what they were looking for, or what molecule they attached the radioactive particle to. It was probably sugar or something.
 
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Alright...so all you have to do is convince everyone (I imagine a nice google would show some nice statistics) who is currently on any prescribed medication to just stop...
//or cause anarchy

ENTPs are great at non practical solutions.
You're pretty terrible at the ol' mutually exclusive thing, aren'tcha? :D

I suggest a more individualized (less generalized) approach to medicine. Oh chiropractor, where art thou?
 

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I suggest a more individualized (less generalized) approach to medicine.

Yo' ain't no room for that in the budget. Treating people with medicine and psychology in mind as specific individuals instead of generalizing as a whole scale, too expensive.
 

just george

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Still nothing disagreed on, yet the question remains, what do you suggest is to be done about this? hm? As far as I can tell, your "solution" is simply to abstain from drugs altogether...
I agree entirely with Habitat.

Controlled demolition of the entire edifice.

Stop prescribing to new patients. Begin meta analysis of what the drugs are actually doing. Begin study of how to properly and safely wind down treatment with these things. Figure out what therapies patients should be changed over to.

Then, find the people responsible, who have ever benefited from the whole disgusting thing, and take everything they have. None of this "I gave it to my wife" or "put it in my kids trust" or secret offshore account stuff - I mean everything. If their fingers touched it, ever, it is confiscated, and they all go to jail forever. No parole, maximum security, solitary confinement.

I'm only saying that because I'm not in a bad mood. The more I think about it, the more I start thinking "human lab rat" and "organ donor".
 
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Yo' ain't no room for that in the budget. Treating people with medicine and psychology in mind as specific individuals instead of generalizing as a whole scale, too expensive.
The budget remains the same. Patients choose doctors, and indirectly their own treatment. "Does it work?" "Does it feel good?" Errbody got time for that! Which is reflected in willingness to pay. At the end of the day the effective doctor who is well respected by his patients is a yes man. Dr. Feelgood.

*EDIT: Actually, the budget shrinks, quite dramatically in fact, after insurance considerations and the likely redaction of chemicals A-QQQ.
 

Black Rose

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In your case, I have no idea what they were looking for, or what molecule they attached the radioactive particle to. It was probably sugar or something.

I did not have a spect scan. I just know about it from the videos on youtube when I was searching for neurofeedback.
 
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Because I can use my madmin superpowers to read deleted posts, I'll just say that perhaps what's needed is a redefinition of "doctor."
 

TimeAsylums

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Because I can use my madmin superpowers to read deleted posts, I'll just say that perhaps what's needed is a redefinition of "doctor."

sans M.D/ph.d?

Fyi, should talk to Polaris about superpowers, apparently never received any


you made me type that whole bloody thing out for mere curiosity?

omg...voodoo dolls...where are my voodoo dolls

lmao, good samaritan
 

r4ch3l

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Your post opens up a few other issues also. You used the phrase "keep them functional in society", which sounds good on the surface, but begs the question "What is wrong here - the person, or the society?"

It is my opinion that our society is much sicker than the people in it, and so people use drugs in order to cope with a world that sucks.

Next, you called the drugs "meds". On what basis, precisely, are they "meds"? Because they come in a white box, out of a pharmacy? Lots of drugs came out of those same boxes, that ended up being deadly poisons.

The only way you can call a drug molecule a medicine is if you can prove that it works - and at this point in time, it cannot be proven that they work. In fact, I would say that the case for them not working is stronger than the case for them working, particularly when you critically examine the mode by which they are brought to market, and assigned a medical use.

I am not saying that people should go off their meds. I am saying that they might not be meds, and that the person may not in fact be sick.

In university I was taught judicious use of medication ie the right drug for the right illness. It is painfully obvious that both pieces of information are missing, and that right now, we are in the midst of one of the worst human catastrophes in history. People in the future are going to look back to our time in horror.

:applause:

If you're doing a drug study on these kinds of medications and want to see which group was the placebo and which was the active, you know the easiest way? Don't ask the patient if the drug is working or if they feel better. Ask if they have side effects. The ones with the side effects are on the active drug. The ones without side effects are on the sugar pill.

Interesting, I never thought of flipping it around that way. My friend is a biochemistry research person who says he is interested in studying the placebo affect more and I am going to ask what he thinks about looking at it this way instead...

For me it may be the opposite though; I had such a terrifying experience on the only drug I was on that I would probably anticipate side effects.
 

just george

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Interesting, I never thought of flipping it around that way. My friend is a biochemistry research person who says he is interested in studying the placebo affect more and I am going to ask what he thinks about looking at it this way instead...

For me it may be the opposite though; I had such a terrifying experience on the only drug I was on that I would probably anticipate side effects.
Get him to do it with vaccines.

Also tell him that I get discounts on bulletproof windows, because the people who prove that vaccines are also rubbish tend to be disapproved of, shall we say
 
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Get him to do it with vaccines.

Also tell him that I get discounts on bulletproof windows, because the people who prove that vaccines are also rubbish tend to be disapproved of, shall we say
Vaccines are far less common than pills. Chicken pox and flu vaccines, sure, but p-p-p-polio yo.
 

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Any input would be appreciated.

You did say *any* input. ;)

So you're going to get an earful. This is my synthesis of the information, and it's worth at least as much as you paid for it.

Warning, warning, long post ahead. Loooonnnnggg post ahead. Don't say you weren't warned.

First off, the chemistry of your brain isn't fixed. People like Dawson Church and Bruce Lipton are showing that the chemistry is dependent on the thoughts you think. Epigenetics. There are studies showing (sorry, no links, too lazy) that the brain is physically changed by meditation. And that the brain actively changes itself based on the thoughts you think. For example, if you think depressed thoughts, your brain enhances the region of the brain that thinks those thoughts, and prunes regions of the brain that you rarely use, like, say, those that think happy thoughts. The number I saw was that the number of neurons dedicated to a task can *double* in 24 hours.

Second, the response of your brain to stimuli is not fixed. Here's a quick and dirty overview of the brain. It is actually composed of three brains - the reptilian brain, the mammalian brain, and the primate brain.

The reptilian brain takes care of autonomous functions, and is also the source of fight, flight, or freeze response in response to stimuli. Anxiety is a result of spending time in this brain. It turns out that many 'threats' of modern life trigger this fight, flight, or freeze response.

The mammalian brain is the location of emotion, and the subconscious. The subconscious stores all our memories, and also uses emotion to create shortcuts for responses to everyday situations. Think of it as a giant look-up table. Red light? Foot off the gas, on the brake, etc.

The primate brain is the frontal cortex, and thus the seat of consciousness, of ego. Logical thought comes from here.

For the first roughly 7 years of life, the brain is in theta brainwaves predominantly. In other words, in hypnotic trance. As children, we are sponges, taking in all of our surroundings wholesale as a survival mechanism. And also putting in place all kinds of irrational traumas, because we have no filters. During adolescence many of the neural connections in our brain are pruned, and our brain shifts to beta brainwaves as its primary.

That's just all background, bare bones, and wrong and right too. The 50,000 foot picture.

What this has to do with you is that your symptom is probably not indicative of a malfunction of your brain hardware, but a malfunction of the software programming that your brain received while you were growing up. Your brain works perfectly, it's just running buggy software. So, if you correct the software, your symptom(s) will disappear.

I read the rest of this thread, and my sympathies are strongly with the arguments of just george. Psychology and psychiatry, in their present state, are primitive and ineffective.

I also agree that timeasylums raises a valid point; people have problems functioning, right here and now, what do we do about them? Throw them to the wolves?

My answer is that we teach them how to alter their brain chemistry, so they stop having their problem. That won't work for everybody, since there are people who truly have organic problems in their brains. Them, we let use drugs, and keep exploring. Genetics will eventually resolve this, probably sometime this century. Realistically, most people aren't going to be effective at self help. No inclination, no aptitude. The main thing though, is that our societal institutions shouldn't be sanctioning something as primitive and ineffective as the current state of the art as the *only* allowed method, and pretending it works. Is a person any better off if they're harmed by a sanctioned and authorized treatment than if they are harmed by an unsanctioned and unauthorized treatment? We're already experimenting on the population, let the experiment expand to include anyone who wants to participate. Yeah, there have to be safeguards, but that's detail.

Anyhow, what is this magic means for people to control their brain chemistry? The unconventional therapies that are so much more effective than conventional therapy. The group NICABM is encouraging the use of mindfulness as a therapy with some success. And that's fine. But I refer to the set of therapies listed below.

This is a list of resources that can be helpful if you want to change yourself. Most of them aren't conventional. That's because conventional or establishment therapeutic techniques in general aren't very effective (my opinion, in case there was a doubt). I recently saw a study where they had a 50% initial effectiveness rate, and thought it was OK. Huh?!?!! I think they've standardized the juice out of therapy in the name of science. I'm not interested here in satisfying regulatory board requirements, but in effectiveness. The trouble with establishment therapy, as I see it, is that they try to pretend that therapeutic interventions are like the hard sciences, like an engineering process. But each human is unique because her mental programming is unique. There is no human that has the exact same set of life experiences as another. So any psychological intervention will always have to have some art to it. The skill of the therapist matters, and the relationship of the therapist and patient. And this almost invalidates the concept of double blind studies. Is the person doing the intervention skilled? Are they the right person to be working with this client? It's like they are trying to write a mechanics shop manual for people. Sure, they do it with (mostly) the best intentions, but the result is still bad. Why do I write mostly? Because like any other union, they are trying to restrict competition for their own benefit. While cloaking their self interest in noble sounding reasons.

You can easily find such conventional therapeutic resources if that is your choice. So this is a list of alternative therapies. You are responsible for evaluating them, and deciding if they suit your needs. And you are responsible for what happens when you use them. If you don't want to be responsible, pay someone to take the responsibility. If you do go that route, and pay someone, make sure you are comfortable with him or her, that you feel a sense of trust when you are around him or her. Even the lowliest con artist can make you trust him or her, so you want to steer clear of anyone doing work on your mind that can't. This can make or break therapy. So let me stress again; if you use someone else for intervention, you need to feel comfortable with them, you need to trust them. Better no therapy than bad therapy. Bad therapy will aggravate your problems.

I call a therapy free if you can learn the basic technique without paying anything. Obviously, these people have to make a living, so they do sell materials to help you enhance your skills. Many of the people who sell self help materials will give you a grace period for you to try what you've bought, and if it isn't working for you, to return it for a full refund.

This list is not exhaustive. If you stumble across something that really turns your crank, and passes all your ripoff filters, and seems to be effective, use it.

Here's the list.

TFT, developed by Roger Callahan. rogercallahan.com Free. This is the grand-daddy of most energy techniques. People used this to then develop their own variation. Training materials are sold.

EFT, developed by Gary Craig. emofree.com Free. That's the official version, but he encouraged people to explore, and so you will find many variations. When he took a hiatus in 2010 for health reasons, there were approximately 1 million people on his mailing list. So this is a fairly popular technique. You can find thousands of case studies on the web, of EFT being used for a huge variety of issues and interventions. Some of them can seem hard to believe, and yet they happened. This is free, easy to learn, easy to use, fast, forgiving, and beginners can expect to get around 50 to 70 per cent effectiveness. I've seen online polls of experienced practitioners that suggest they get effectiveness north of 95 per cent. The EFT Masters website is good. I think lots of practitioners I've listened to and watched are effective, as well, though I have favorites. Way too many great people to list them all. You'll have to decide for yourself who you like. EFT can be done over the phone or using skype, and there are practioners that don't charge if you don't get at least some change in your issue. Some will do mini interviews to see if you are good fit for himmer. There are free audios, tutorials, and videos. And there are paid audios, tutorials, videos, and seminars.

EMDR, developed by Francine Shapiro. emdr.com Not free. An energy technique developed by Francine to resolve her own trauma. Books and DVDs for sale.

TAT, developed by Tapas Fleming. tatlife.com Free. Another energy technique. There are paid materials available.

BSFF, developed by Larry Nims. besetfreefast.com Free. Another energy technique. There are paid materials available.

Timeline Therapy, developed by Tad James, based on NLP timelines. tadjames.com Not free. Tad James is also an NLP trainer. Sells audio recordings of his trainings, as do many NLP trainers.

Matrix Reimprinting, developed by Karl Dawson. matrixreimprinting.com Not free. Based on EFT and Timeline Therapy. Goes back to the past using visualization and resolves issues as they happen. Changes the meaning of experience.

Hypnosis, formally studied starting a few centuries ago, around since there have been people. Free and not free. Milton Erickson is one famous hypnotherapist. There are lots of effective practitioners. Works directly with the subconscious to resolve issues. A search will turn up many audios and videos for sale online. And probably some free ones as well. Lots and lots of books. You can probably go to any library and find a hypnosis book. Self hypnosis is effective, though hypnosis is usually performed by one person on another.

NLP, developed by Richard Bandler and John Grinder. richardbandler.com Not free. Succinctly, this is the assembly language of the brain. Very powerful, but requires significant investment to get good at it. Richard Bandler is acknowledged as the master in this field. Connirae Andreas is one of many other skilled practitioners and teachers who runs trainings. A cheap introduction to NLP is the books edited by Connirae, 'Frogs into Princes', 'Tranceformations', 'Reframing and the Transformation of Meaning', 'Change Your Mind and Keep the Change', 'Using Your Mind for a Change'. The nuts and bolts are contained in 'The Structure of Magic I & II' and 'Patterns in the Hypnotic Language of Milton H Erickson'. Seminars are costly, but are pretty much essential to really get good. Richard Bandler, among others, sells videos of trainings. Because of the direct nature of NLP, it is necessary to be concerned with ecology. In most of these other techniques, the subconscious is acting as gatekeeper, so they are naturally ecological.

Core Transformation, developed by Connirae Andreas. coretransformation.org Not free. A form of waking hypnosis that works with the subconscious to resolve issues. There is a very reasonably priced book called, what else, 'Core Transformation'. Audios and videos are for sale, as well as seminars.

PSTec, developed by Tim Phizackerly. pstec.org Free. An unconventional approach that in my opinion is based on NLP and EFT. Fast, easy to use, effective. This works, but I have some concerns about how ecological it is. It's the closest thing to not requiring anything on your part I've seen.

Sedona Method, developed by Lester Levenson. sedona.com Hale Dwoskin. releasetechnique.com Larry Crane. Not free. An emotional release technique. Sold as audios and videos, and there are books. Lester died in 1993, but there are still audio and video recordings of him available. Worth watching or listening to if you can find them.

The Work of Byron Katie, developed by Byron Katie. thework.com. Free. This is more than a therapy technique. This is a spiritual path that resolves psychological issues. Actually, that's true of most spiritual paths. ;-) The basic technique is free to learn. There are videos of her working with people one on one on her website, and also part of her book, 'Loving What Is' as well.

Long term, I suggest meditation, whatever that means to you. To me it means letting your mind tick over without following it. Observer. Mindful throughout the day.

And brainwave entrainment. Like meditation with training wheels. If you listen to this regularly, it will change your awareness. Really. And it feels wonderful to entrain. Really. If you've ever meditated in a room with someone powerful, someone who projects the kundalini, you'll recognize the entrainment experience.

I recommend that, for starters, you go to the pstec site, download the free zip file, listen to the instructions after you unzip it, and then run a click track on the incident that led to your episode and your diagnosis. Then look up the personal peace procedure, and use one of the techniques to do it.

Remember, you did say *any* input. :)
 
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