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Iroquois dreams

OldCoyote

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The seventeenth-century Iroquois practiced a dream psychotherapy that was surprisingly similar to Frued's discoveries some two hundred years later. There is no evidence that Frued ever knew of these reports or could have had any inkling of this aspect of Iroquois culture. However, the Iroquois explained their concept of dreams to the Jesuit Fathers in terms remarkably similar to the words Freud used:

"In addition to the desires which we generally have that are free, or at least voluntary in us, and which arise from a previous knowledge of some goodness that we imagine to exist in the thing desired, We believe that our souls have other desires,which are, as it were, inborn and concealed. These... Come from the depths of the soul, not through any knowledge, but by means of a certain blind transporting of the soul to certain objects,"

The Iroquois also believed that a person's natural wish was often fulfilled through their dreams, "which are its language".. They were also aware that a dream might mask rather than reveal the souls wishes.

All of which is a remarkably sophisticated grasp of what we in a
Modern culture call psychiatry.

In conclusion, the Iroquois recognized the existence of an unconscious, the force of unconscious desires, how the conscious mind attempts to repress unpleasant thoughts, how these unpleasant thoughts often emerge in dreams, and how the frustration of unconscious desires may cause mental and physical illness. The Iroquois knew that their dreams did not represent facts but rather symbols- which had to be brought to medicine people, more enlightened than the common, whose sight, penetrates, as it were, into the depths of the soul.

Thoughts? :eek:
 

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TheScornedReflex

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Ha, the whole NZ air force out on flight. Yeah, fuck with us now Fiji!... Errr /derail.
 
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Thoughts? :eek:
Would it be fair to say that Freud is more of a "success" because he utilized a complex and more widely dispersed system of written language? And/or because he had a fancy piece of paper that said "degree"?

Would it also be fair to say that the lack of the role of medicine men in today's society is because the information itself is better suited to be passed on through non-written oral/experiential means?
 

OldCoyote

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Would it be fair to say that Freud is more of a "success" because he utilized a complex and more widely dispersed system of written language? And/or because he had a fancy piece of paper that said "degree"?

For these reasons I would call the Iroquois concept a "success". These were concepts formed without "professionals", without academy's, and without a lot of peer based reviews. IMO, Frued had all the right criteria working for him: I.E well educated, a professional status (focused on the subject), and working with peers.

Honestly, I'm not trying to demean what Freud accomplished -- In fact, Frued is the measuring stick.

If Frued equals success, and the Iroquois concepts equal Frued's- then wouldn't the Iroquois concepts equal success?

Would it also be fair to say that the lack of the role of medicine men in today's society is because the information itself is better suited to be passed on through non-written oral/experiential means?

This is a more complicated question..;)

First, by lack of role, you mean in society at large correct? They're still very much active in tribal settings. However, society as a whole could probably give a crap less about what some savage thinks of their dreams. This is the problem,IMO the natives have been branded with a stigma of being ignorant believers of faith and superstition when very few have actually peeked through the shadows to see what's really there.

I'm sure many oral traditions have fallen to the sands of time, it only makes me wonder how advanced of a society we could be living in-- if the knowledge the Red man possessed was deemed more valuable.
 
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If Frued equals success, and the Iroquois concepts equal Frued's- then wouldn't the Iroquois concepts equal success?
Agreed. :D
This is a more complicated question..;)

First, by lack of role, you mean in society at large correct? They're still very much active in tribal settings. However, society as a whole could probably give a crap less about what some savage thinks of their dreams. This is the problem,IMO the natives have been branded with a stigma of being ignorant believers of faith and superstition when very few have actually peeked through the shadows to see what's really there.

I'm sure many oral traditions have fallen to the sands of time, it only makes me wonder how advanced of a society we could be living in-- if the knowledge the Red man possessed was deemed more valuable.
I should probably expand on the "lacking" thing. I mean in terms of Western society at large. Everything has become specialized, often too specialized. Doctors fail to communicate with each other, let alone other disciplines. When's the last time your podiatrist spoke with your priest about their dreams? The Medicine Man has a broader range of knowledge, and more adaptability. Pharmaceuticals and cures are also profit-motivated and inadequately tested, and thus unsuitable for both the curing of sickness (due to profit motive) as well as serving an institutional structure that's built of their efficacy.

As far as peeking through the shadows, how open are those natives on the other side of the shadows to communicating? I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a large amount of hesitation involved given the disparity of understanding and stigmatization. I know this exists within the Wildlife field, especially regarding things like Traditional Ecological Knowledge.
 

Brontosaurie

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what have these tribal natives done to deserve our intellectual reverence and our respectful attention?

sure they discovered dmt and mescaline but what is their wisdom? where has their philosophy taken them? to me they are ignorant believers of superstition, no less than any other religious people, and quite possibly more than the commonplace monotheists.
 

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^I am pretty sure the tribal natives are asking the same questions about us.

Why is our wisdom better than theirs?

If you can answer that, what makes you right, or more worthy of respect?

Do we have a right to force our beliefs on anyone, despite what the nature of that belief may be?

Do we possess some inherent right by our own laws to defy their laws? We simply took that right by assuming their laws were either inferior or non-existent.

Why are they no longer considered important just because the stronger forces decided what was important and not important for them?

Have we even begun to consider the potential knowledge and wisdom we never bothered to explore (the results often more than several thousands of years of experience) that could potentially be integrated into our own knowledge-systems?

I think there is ignorance on both parts then, if we are to throw about that word.

One doesn't need records of achievement and Western-defined progress to be respected and intellectually revered.

We seldom stop to consider the values of what we deem as progressive.

Disclaimer: I am not anti-progress ---- in fact, I'm all for it. But that doesn't make me more superior to people who seemingly didn't follow that same line of progress as us.
 

Brontosaurie

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i tend to think a case rather weak when the only defense consists of skepticism and relativism.

awaiting substance from old coyote or THD, who seem to possess knowledge about the insight and potential utilities of shamanism etc.
 
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i tend to think a case rather weak when the only defense consists of skepticism and relativism.

awaiting substance from old coyote or THD, who seem to possess knowledge about the insight and potential utilities of shamanism etc.
Let's start with the basics. What makes anything worth y"our intellectual reverence and our respectful attention"?
 

OldCoyote

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what have these tribal natives done to deserve our intellectual reverence and our respectful attention?

sure they discovered dmt and mescaline but what is their wisdom? where has their philosophy taken them? to me they are ignorant believers of superstition, no less than any other religious people, and quite possibly more than the commonplace monotheists.

So by this reasoning Einstein's theory's would be irrelevant. His belief in a "god" would classify him as ignorant?

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."- Einstein

You highlighted a few discoveries the natives made (notably the new age hippies favorites) let me add to that with a few that made more of global impact.

Medicines that treated some of the oldest known diseases were used and spread by Native Americans; many had important medical uses and are still used today. In the Andes, Incas used "Peruvian bark," or quinine, to cure cramps, chills, heart-rhythm disorders, and other ailments. In the early 17th century, quinine was used in Europe to treat malaria, marking the beginning of modern pharmacology. Indians of the Amazon cured amoebic dysentery (a deadly infectionof the intestines) with a medicine they called ipecac, made from the roots of the plants Cephaelis ipecacuanha and C. acuminata. Ipecac makes people vomit, thus expelling the poisons from the body. It is still used for this purpose today by poison clinics worldwide. Curare, used as a poison on arrows by Native Americans in the Amazon, is used as a muscle relaxant in modern medicine. It was the first treatment for tetanus, and was used to relaxabdominal muscles before surgery and to relax patients enough to permit a breathing tube to be inserted into the windpipe during surgery. Today, curare is part of many different muscle-relaxant drugs. The most commonly used laxative worldwide came from Native Americans in northern California and Oregon, who used the bark of the cascare buckthorne as a cure for constipation. Although other cures for constipation existed at the time, this laxative was much milder. In South America, Native Americans used the coca bush, which replaced ether and launched local anesthesia in medical use. Today, cocaine is used innovocaine, one of the most important anesthetics in the world.

With the narrow minded view you illustrate, none of these discoveries would have been made.

In fact, I'd be willing to let you sit by my sacred fire, peel off some of my peyote, in the hopes that it would relive the intellectual constraints you've imposed on your world view..:D
 

Brontosaurie

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i asked some questions, seeking answers and providing my conclusions and perspective thus far. granted it was a bit off topic and perhaps accusatory but how do you get "narrow minded" from it? that association, if anything, is new agey.

(if i were in the same conjectural mode as you, i'd wager to say that your aggressively defensive stance indicates that your fascination with this stuff is entirely irrational)

the medicines are all good but they don't explain your interest in the philosophy, mythology and symbolism. would you propagate christianity because people who practiced it long ago identified some useful herb or made some mechanical invention? honestly those discoveries seem coincidental rather than integral to the religious practice. from what i can tell i have yet to receive a proper, relevant answer.

the einstein analogy is invalid. to be clear: i'm not asking you to defend your respect for the tribal natives' useful applicable discoveries (some of which i've even exampled myself), but your respect for their spirituality. you have demonstrated such.
 
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stuff like insight and potential utility is a good starting point, i imagine.
The problem we're going to encounter is that insight is experiential and both insight and utility are subjective. Meaning depends on one's relationship with the unknown.
the medicines are all good but they don't explain your interest in the philosophy, mythology and symbolism.
OldCoyote did a good job of answering this:
what have these tribal natives done to deserve our intellectual reverence and our respectful attention?
So I won't expand on it too much.

Our interest can never justify or convert your interest. It exists because of some... indescribable experiential umami.
i asked some questions, seeking answers and providing my conclusions and perspective thus far. granted it was a bit off topic and perhaps accusatory but how do you get "narrow minded" from it?
I could reason that narrow-mindedness depends on one's openness to the unknown. If one is open-minded, does the method matter?

You're essentially arguing that the choosing of a specific path highlights some sort of irrational bias and closed-mindedness, when in truth, if all paths are equal, then bias is eliminated. No one here is justifying their beliefs over another by means of their personal choice, and some of are indeed ping pong balls. What you're missing is the difference in intrinsic properties among individuals that guides agency (determined through what is very much a random or at least poorly understood process) that results in as close a thing as universal spirituality as there can be, enacted at the individual level, as per synchronicity. You're focusing too much on the meta; the result; the light at the end of the tunnel. You should be focusing on the tunnels. There is much theoretical overlap with anarchospirituality.

From a friend (R.I.P.):
Anarchospirituality
Paul Pojman

Atheism in its negation of gods is at the same time the strongest affirmation of man, and through man, the eternal yea to life, purpose, and beauty. Mikhail Bakunin’s God and State, and Emma Goldman’s “The Failure of Christianity” and “The Philosophy of Atheism” critique not only Christianity but spirituality in general. They argue that religion is a human creation arising out of primitive people's fears and is a symptom of human suffering (the standard Marxist critique). Furthermore, religion manifests as an authority over humans in two ways. It offers an external authority, a standard of morality and obedience, which can be manipulated by the state. Furthermore, God, as a supreme master, negates the possibility of true human freedom, leading to servility. Hence, in a reversal of Voltaire, Bakunin writes: “if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him.” In addition, belief in god permits oppression as it distracts us from efforts to make social progress by placing the real in the transcendent rather than here on earth. Finally, religious beliefs are scientifically false; atheism is justified by materialism, which is supported by science.

There are at least four problems. First, the link with materialism and science is not so simple, and the adoption of materialism for political purposes is dangerous. Science is indeed methodologically materialist (proceeding as though there is no non-material reality), but there is no deduction to metaphysical materialism (a claim as to what is True). Bakunin argues that science will always be an incomplete project, but nonetheless, he uses the authority of science to support materialism. However, if science is always to be incomplete, then we cannot know materialism is true (or what version of materialism). For instance, various panpsychisms are also fully compatible with science.

Many thinkers of Bakunin’s era (notably the philosopher-scientist Ernst Mach) regarded materialism itself as an ideology, potentially as malicious as spiritualism. The ideological use of materialism by Marxists lends support to this concern. For Bakunin, a metaphysical acceptance of materialism leads him to a simplistic positivistic view on the relation of society to science. While science should not be used by humans to claim authority over each other, he looks forward to the day when an adequate social science is developed with laws, which are “quite as necessary, invariable … as the laws that govern the physical world.” When these laws of social science, “by means of an extensive system of popular education and instruction, shall have passed into the consciousness of all, the question of liberty will be entirely solved.” It is unstated who is to determine when this social science is ready for application, nor who is to determine the methods of education.

Second, religious belief is not a prerequisite for spirituality. Although Bakunin and Goldman acknowledge that there are non-Christian spiritualities, they implicitly assume that all spirituality must include the idea of a transcendent realm, of something beyond the earth which is more important than here. However, many traditions, even within Christianity, encourage a skeptical attitude, or even utter ambivalence about belief.

Third, the claim that religion is detrimental to social progress may be true within many euro-centric contexts, but demonstrably false when applied to struggles against euro-centrism. The long fights for Black liberation, the anti-colonial and anti-apartheid movements in India and South Africa, as well as the various Liberation Theology movements of Latin America, have all drawn strength from spirituality. In doing so, they often were able to reclaim important aspects of their spirituality away from the dominant discourse; that is, the libratory moment was not a rejection of spirituality but a reclaiming and reconfiguring of it. The methods of non-violent non-cooperative direct action developed within some of these movements are today an important part of struggles for justice.

Fourth, there is no necessary connection between spirituality and inner servility. It is interesting that while Goldman references Nietzsche’s criticisms of Christianity, she ignores his openness to creative, individualistic, and ecstatic spiritualities. Many people turn to spirituality precisely out of libratory aspirations, taking responsibility for enacting the change in themselves they wish to see in the world, of healing, gathering strength for outer work, or for investigating and struggling with their own conditionings and imprisonments, whether social or biological.

An anarchospirituality might include horizontal social relations, active analyses of class, race and gender dynamics, a culture of tolerant skepticism toward metaphysical beliefs, lots of fun and play, and commitment to social change. Beyond minimum compatibility requirements, it has a lot to offer. Fighting injustice in the world is not enough; there is also injustice within us. For instance, anger is a reasonable response to pervasive social injustice. But anger can also be self-righteous, loudly proclaiming the truth of a barely understood ideology, blind to its own pain and confusion. Discerning the difference certainly does not require a spiritual community, but nonetheless, it is in such communities that discourses of inner work, self-discipline, and healing have been developed.
 

redbaron

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Oh for fuck's sake, would people please stop quote mining Einstein?
Happens in nearly every discussion about spirituality.
 

OldCoyote

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Agreed. :D

I should probably expand on the "lacking" thing. I mean in terms of Western society at large. Everything has become specialized, often too specialized. Doctors fail to communicate with each other, let alone other disciplines. When's the last time your podiatrist spoke with your priest about their dreams? The Medicine Man has a broader range of knowledge, and more adaptability. Pharmaceuticals and cures are also profit-motivated and inadequately tested, and thus unsuitable for both the curing of sickness (due to profit motive) as well as serving an institutional structure that's built of their efficacy.

As far as peeking through the shadows, how open are those natives on the other side of the shadows to communicating? I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a large amount of hesitation involved given the disparity of understanding and stigmatization. I know this exists within the Wildlife field, especially regarding things like Traditional Ecological Knowledge.

You're dead on..:)


I'm sure they wouldn't open up to just anybody, but for the most part, they want to share their knowledge. Like what's happening in the Amazon now-- As the old ways are fading off, Professors from around the world are documenting and or preserving it.

In another note, yes I did bring Einstein into this (I Apologize) :D

@Brontosaurie:

Maybe your not narrow minded, but compared to my extreme open-mindness- I think you are defiantly limiting your views.;) In your example of Christianity for instance. I would look into some of the inventions/medicine, Granted I wouldn't take up the cross and preach the faith(don't consider myself doing that here either).. I would defiantly take what's valuable and leave what's not.

I can do that-- reap the 'practical' benefits irregardless of the differences in spirituality.
 

OldCoyote

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Back on topic:

The Iroquois Huron and Seneca American Indians, as early as the first European contact in the 17th century, had developed a deeper psychological understanding of dreams than the white races of the time. They had no divinity but the dream – so wrote Father Fremin who studied their customs. They clearly described the conscious and unconscious, and said that through dreams the hidden or unconscious area of the psyche makes its desires known. If it does not receive these desires it becomes angry. The Iroquois therefore developed a system of allowing the dreamer to act out their dreams socially. Although a moral and disciplined group, during such acting-out the dreamer was allowed to go beyond usual social boundaries. This included receiving valuable objects or making love to another persons spouse. This was to allow unconscious desires to be expressed, thus avoiding sickness of body or mind. Such hidden desires were seen as the basis of individual as well as social problems.

I don't think we could handle it. That poor secretary..:eek:
 

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They had no divinity but the dream

Is this true? I mean, bearing in mind that you probably can't lump all Native American cultures into one monolithic group, I was under the impression that they were more or less polytheistic. Now that I think about it though, I don't really know anything about their spiritual practices beyond what movies and cartoons have taught me. :eek:
 

Brontosaurie

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wow.

what's practical about identifying with a coyote and an owl?

honestly you seem too close-minded to even process the words i write, judging by the prevailing abscence of any real answer. that's okay, though, as i'm likely the worlds biggest moron anyway.
 

OldCoyote

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Father Fremin's entire quote:

“The Iroquois have, properly speaking, only a single Divinity-the dream. To it they render their submission and follow all its orders with the utmost exactness.”



With regard to spiritual beliefs, the Iroquois believed that all living things were filled with an essence called orenda. Dreams were the main form of contact between orenda and human beings. Individuals would fast and pray to obtain a vision. Dreams expressed the desires of the most inner realm of the soul. The fulfillment of a dream was absolutely essential.

I guess the dream really was considered "The Divine" ..:confused:

The Chickasaws (my people) practiced a monotheistic religion and worshiped their god, Ababinili (he who sits above), atop ceremonial mounds.

I would bet that most tribes would consider themselves monotheistic.
 

OldCoyote

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what's practical about identifying with a coyote and an owl?

What's practical about bringing my free associating game from my introduction to here?:confused:
 

Brontosaurie

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What's practical about bringing my free associating game from my introduction to here?:confused:

i want to probe your thought patterns and test your logic. you and THD discussed something similar here but the question is better suited for your introduction, yeah.
 

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it only makes me wonder how advanced of a society we could be living in-- if the knowledge the Red man possessed was deemed more valuable.


I have to say your viewpoint to me seems like a cultural bias one in which you place the people you identify or as you say "your people" on a pedestal. The notion that these loose groupings that form a general idea that dreams have psychological bearing is as sophisticated as Freud's own complex theory seems ludicrous to me. As well I'm sure people everywhere in every culture have come up with similar ideas, the point is though that Freud's was in fact sophisticated(complex) enough to still be renowned today.

A quick google search on Ancient cultures beliefs on dreams returns this within a page of reading:

Some Terribly Colored Website said:
"However, ancient Greek thinker, Aristotle had a different understanding of dreams. He believed that dreams of sickness, for example, could be cause simply by the dreamer's unconscious recognition of the symptoms within the body. He also held that the dream could act unconsciously to bring about the dreamed event."


I think what you really mean when you speak of "how advanced" is how much more healthier people could be? because if you mean technologically advanced I'm going to have to laugh at you, sorry. And this health problem is not because the knowledge isn't there or is undocumented but because there's widespread disregard on an individual level for one's own mental and emotional health.
 

redbaron

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OldCoyote said:
In your example of Christianity for instance. I would look into some of the inventions/medicine.

Misconception. This happens often - people attribute knowledge gained to the overarching philosophy of the time period in which it was gained. What I mean is that for the better part of a thousand years, Christianity was the overruling authority on all matters to do with the physical world. When a physician discovers something important in the 1500's, people draw the conclusion that this is a discovery of religion when it's simply not the case.

The discoveries that people made of medicine were made through other means - through experimentation and observation. They are not the product of Christian teachings.

If you disagree, go ahead and find me any medical discovery made and I'll bet it was found in the same way - observational and experimental success.
 

OldCoyote

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@ummidk

I can see your cultural biased assessment.

In my mind- I'm a lost indian, Half naked and roaming around in a foreign environment. Psychology is a subject new to me, so I think it would be natural to conclude that I would take this new material and compare it to my cultural upbringing. What left me astonished is these 'technological' advances didn't really turn my cultural beliefs upside down as it has done for most.

The comparison to greek philosophy- I agree, Suits it better.. They where probably born around the same time I imagine... (I tend to aim high usually :eek:)

And yes, I did mean more advanced as In medicine wise..:)

If the Native Americans picked a subject to master it was the Earth. Not so much what you could do 'with' it, but what It could do 'for' you.That's why I believe they do bring something to the table-- even if it's just a plant, put it in a test tube, then put some science on it:)...

Now, some of the misconceptions:

1. I'm in no way affiliated with the Iroquois and or their beliefs. (I thought they were interesting and also indicated some intelligence and or wasn't ignorant)

2. I don't propose we throw away technology for sticks and stones.

3.I'm not a professor/preacher.

4.I'm not gonna start a cult by recruiting lost souls from internet message boards.

5.The Christian question was taken out of context-- It was phrased something like-"would I cram the bible down people's throat if it had referenced a magic herb"-- I replied something like- "cram the magic herb down and leave the bible"..

6. I do not work for the FBI. :eek:

7.I also do not form my ideas out before revealing them. (So be careful jumping to conclusions- you can't arrive at my conclusion before me ;))
 

redbaron

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OldCoyote said:
The Christian question was taken out of context-- It was phrased something like-

I'm less interested in what it was phrased, 'like' than how it was phrased. Perhaps I've misunderstood your meaning behind this post:

OldCoyote said:
Christianity for instance. I would look into some of the inventions/medicine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seemed as though you were implying there were indeed inventions/medicine arising directly from christian teachings that Brontosaurie should look into.

If that wasn't the case and you were just alluding generally to how Brontosaurie shouldn't dismiss things so quickly, that's different...you picked a pretty poor example to use but I can understand where you're going with that (if it was indeed what you meant).
 

OldCoyote

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If that wasn't the case and you were just alluding generally to how Brontosaurie shouldn't dismiss things so quickly, that's different...you picked a pretty poor example to use but I can understand where you're going with that (if it was indeed what you meant).

This...
 

Brontosaurie

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so what about the indian 'bible' has your interest?

you could say you're religious. that'd clear things up. you do seem to believe you're inhabited by a coyote spirit. at the very least you seem to think that native american spirituality has psychological merit.

i ain't the one dismissing here.
 

OldCoyote

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The most interesting thing about the NA's bible is there isn't one... I arranged my current interest in "it" with a very cleaver thing called a title--"Iroquois dreams"..:facepalm:

My religion consists of the world as a great mystery and that it was somehow made that way.. :D

And to clarify, I actually think I'm a coyote that shape shifted into a human in order to trick people into thinking I'm possessed by a coyote spirit....:eek:

I think Native Americans understood psychological behavior......:confused:

And I also think you take things way to literally..;)
 

Brontosaurie

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sigh

all you got is:

"haha, stupid to believe me"

thus you're pwning yourself and i'm redundant

i'm outta here
 

OldCoyote

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For if thy pwned they self, thy shall not be pwned by thy enemy's. :D

Don't go, I believe you where trying to drag me into some preconcieved notion.. If you wish, you could just lay it out and stop being so deceptive about it...;)
 

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In my mind- I'm a lost indian, Half naked and roaming around in a foreign environment. Psychology is a subject new to me, so I think it would be natural to conclude that I would take this new material and compare it to my cultural upbringing. What left me astonished is these 'technological' advances didn't really turn my cultural beliefs upside down as it has done for most.

Oh I agree, one must compare to his/her inputs, no one can judge from a vaccuum, I was more getting at the point that you said the Iroquis had a more or equally sophisticated grasp of the idea of psychology as Freud, and I disagree with that notion.



The comparison to greek philosophy- I agree, Suits it better.. They where probably born around the same time I imagine... (I tend to aim high usually :eek:)

Who was born at the same time as the greeks? Are you saying you believe these insights were provided by the divine to Aristotle as well as the Native Americans at the same time? If not I'm really lost as to what your trying to say.

Anyways the point I was trying to get across was not that Greek Philosophy correlates to this, but that psychology is at it's most basic level just the study of human behavior. Every culture has humans who behave like humans and no doubt people from every culture who were perceptive enough and intelligent enough to draw the conclusions would be able to make theories similar to those we're now proving, proving is a lot different than theorizing though.

And yes, I did mean more advanced as In medicine wise..:)

Again I don't think the knowledge about medicine isn't out there, it's more of what THD was getting at in that everyone is so specialized and book learnt in a specific area of medicine that a lot of the medical professionals themselves do not see the whole of health. The economic incentive to create addicts out of patients probably doesn't help either.


If the Native Americans picked a subject to master it was the Earth. Not so much what you could do 'with' it, but what It could do 'for' you.

Again....has not every culture sought to do this? whats the difference between what to do with it and what it does for you? One does something with it for oneself or another's benefit.

That's why I believe they do bring something to the table-- even if it's just a plant, put it in a test tube, then put some science on it:)...

But this is how the western field and every field of medicine developed, maybe not test tubes, but from plants, again no one can sit around theorizing in a vaccuum and draw any conclusions.

1. I'm in no way affiliated with the Iroquois and or their beliefs. (I thought they were interesting and also indicated some intelligence and or wasn't ignorant)

Maybe not affliated but you do seem to poesess a connection to them as a fellow "red man"

2. I don't propose we throw away technology for sticks and stones.

I might ;)

3.I'm not a professor/preacher.

4.I'm not gonna start a cult by recruiting lost souls from internet message boards.


4.I'm not gonna start a cult by recruiting lost souls from internet message boards.

5.The Christian question was taken out of context-- It was phrased something like-"would I cram the bible down people's throat if it had referenced a magic herb"-- I replied something like- "cram the magic herb down and leave the bible"..

6. I do not work for the FBI. :eek:

7.I also do not form my ideas out before revealing them. (So be careful jumping to conclusions- you can't arrive at my conclusion before me ;))

Umm great but I hope these were not directed at me because I do not believe them to be true(except maybe #1), did I come off as though I did? Oh and wtf does "I do not form my ideas out before revealing them" mean? you reveal your ideas before forming them?
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OldCoyote

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Oh I agree, one must compare to his/her inputs, no one can judge from a vaccuum, I was more getting at the point that you said the Iroquis had a more or equally sophisticated grasp of the idea of psychology as Freud, and I disagree with that notion.

Point taken, A Comparison to Frued's was apples to oranges-- My Fault.

Who was born at the same time as the greeks? Are you saying you believe these insights were provided by the divine to Aristotle as well as the Native Americans at the same time? If not I'm really lost as to what your trying to say.

No... I believe mankind started asking themselves these questions around the same time-- irregardless of race, location, or spiritual preference.


Anyways the point I was trying to get across was not that Greek Philosophy correlates to this, but that psychology is at it's most basic level just the study of human behavior. Every culture has humans who behave like humans and no doubt people from every culture who were perceptive enough and intelligent enough to draw the conclusions would be able to make theories similar to those we're now proving, proving is a lot different than theorizing though.

I like this, you have illustrated what's in my head that I haven't been able to convey.. Except, I would say the NA's did prove some of their theories, maybe not this one per say. But IMO, they understood psychology in their own form.

whats the difference between what to do with it and what it does for you?

its a reference to a cultural thing.. I don't believe we have domination over the earth, she can be a bitch if your not sweet to her. - I was grasping at the notion that NA's cared more about good medicine and herbs, than money and global empires..:)

But this is how the western field and every field of medicine developed, maybe not test tubes, but from plants, again no one can sit around theorizing in a vaccuum and draw any conclusions.

I do it all the time:).. I get you though...

the rest was not directed at you:)-- it was more or less a sarcastic rendition of how F'n probing the board is...:) :eek:

^^
Seriously, I appreciate your constructive criticism. It's more highly tuned than most's...Bravo :)

About my thoughts, I don't think ahead to the outcome, I jump in, then figure out where to come out.. :eek:

So nobody knows where I'm going with this..............
 
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