Egotistical/narcissistic tendencies and putting on appearances

[Rudolph Mondal]

HI, I'm Rudolph Mondal. I've been active on and off on this forum. Lately more off than on. If any of you remember me at all, perhaps you'll also remember that I used to write a start a lot of fairly existential, depressing (in a sense) threads which revolved all around me. You might also remember that I had some mental issues that I was grappling with. Well, you probably don't remember any of that, which is fine. I should come to terms with the fact that nobody but perhaps my parents and I actually give a shit about me.

Anyway, so I've been on this drug called vortioxetine which coupled with therapy and some degree of willpower have allowed me to be somewhat functional again. In my previous post perhaps I made it seem as if I accomplished this all on my own but in fact the medicine and therapy have gone a long way into helping me regain some degree of functionality. Some of you, perhaps most might think at this point that I'm trying to draw attention to my myself. That's probably true, I won't deny it but in the process I'm also trying to help myself.

I've realized though, that with the evaporation, so to speak, of issues due to the regulation of neurotransmitters in my brain, more fundamental issues have emerged. This is good. It's like I'm finding myself again after all these years.

I've realized that I have a somewhat narcissistic/egocentric personality which prompts me to wish to exert my superiority over others especially and perhaps particularly in intellectual manners at least subtly. As I've perhaps mentioned elsewhere, my motivation for pursuing intellectual interests is partly due to my desire to create a impression of myself which I'd like others to have of me. Of course, I'm also genuinely interested in all the stuff I say I'm interested in, to an extent. I say this because if I realize that an interest of mine doesn't hold the key to "unlocking the structure of reality" then I get quite upset and am not able to pursue that interest very much any more. If my motivation for pursuing that interest were solely based upon my intention to exert a certain image of myself, then the idea that the interest to me no longer addresses the structure of reality wouldn't lead me to lose interest in that particular area. So there.

I'm not sure if this is entirely a bad thing though, or even something that isn't very common. Of course I haven't had any experiences from someone else's vantage point so I wouldn't know for sure but I think a lot of people are motivated to do something because of the sort of impression of themselves that others would be lead to.

I'm curious though as to how this desire within me to have others think of me as being extremely intelligent arose in the first place. Since young everyone has told me that I'm pretty intelligent but somehow I've never been satisfied. I've always wanted to prove myself to be superior to everyone else. My self esteem gets crushed if I can clearly see that someone's probably more intelligent than I am. Actually, a story comes to mind. I used to have this friend between the ages of 16 and 19 whom I then considered to be my best friend. He's probably the most intelligent person I've come across in my life. People consider scientists or philosophers or inventors etc to be extremely intelligent but what they're seeing is maybe a little bit of intelligence but mainly what they're seeing is perseverance. But this guy was extremely intelligent in pretty much every conceivable way. His intelligence is very fluid and general such that in can be applied with equal success to any area. Sports, academics, writing, board games, leadership/management, music, art, social skills, you name it. In particular he's a great charmer, he's able to attract anyone he wishes to attract. He isn't exactly an ethical person though, he has somewhat of a manipulative streak which goes unnoticed by most people. But in any case, he devastated my confidence in myself the whole time I was with him. I don't meet up with him anymore because he always fills me with this heavy sense of being incompetent and unintelligent.

I fantasize a lot without realizing that I'm doing so. It's what I call an active fantasy in the sense that I'd pretend I'm someone else but while doing so I'd actually believe that I am that person at least to the extent that I share that person's characteristics and personality. I'd talk like that person and behave like him. Sometimes I realize it but let it go on anyway. For some reason other people don't tend to notice it so much.

Have you ever watched a video or perhaps in real life, be it say a lecture or a documentary or a film, whereby you get captivated by the person and wish, even unconsciously, to emulate him? Often after the lecture or documentary or film or whatever ends I'd behave like that person and talk like him. Even my accent changes. I do realize it sooner or later though but most of the time I suppress my realization and let the act continue anyway.

I know I've been quite critical of mbti lately but perhaps it is indeed an accurate characterization of one's personality. The problem, at least for me, is that I can't view myself objectively. Perhaps no one really can. When I do a type test or read about the descriptions of the various type, I'd always try to match it with what I believe myself to be but not who I actually am. Perhaps it's because I really have no clue of who I am. Every time I answer a question I answer it as who I believe myself to be. This works for most people because who they believe they are doesn't deviate too far from who they actually are but it isn't the case for me. I've put on too many appearances such that I've forgotten who I am beneath and believe myself to be the appearances I put on instead although now I realize that I'm not but well, this is probably an appearance too.

I've entertained the possibility that I might be an INFJ but everyone thinks they might be INFJ don't they? I'm fairly certain my enneagram tritype is 548/458 though if that means anything to anyone.

Please do share if you've experienced anything similar to what I've written. I get the feeling people don't like me much on this forum. But that's okay, it's the same everywhere I go anyway.

 

[Sinny91]

My attachment style was recently brought to my attention by a previous member here; up until then I had heard of attachment styles, but never even considered looking into mine, or the validity of the theory.

However, as I say, somebody brought to my attention that I fit the bill for 'Dismissive Avoidant'.. and so I was looking it up last night..

Type: Dismissive-Avoidant

Much of what follows also applies to the fearful-avoidant, who can be thought of as the avoidant who haven’t given up. So when we talk about “the avoidant”, it is about characteristics shared by both the dismissive-avoidant and the fearful-avoidant.

The two avoidant types (dismissive-avoidant and fearful-avoidant) share a subconscious fear that caregivers are not reliable and intimacy is a dangerous thing. The dismissive-avoidant individuals (who we will call*Dismissives) have completed a mental transformation that says: “I am good, I don’t need others, and they aren’t really important to me. I am fine as I am,” while the fearful-avoidant are still consciously craving an intimacy which scares them when it actually happens. Both types were trained not to rely on caregivers, but the Dismissive has dealt with this by deciding he doesn’t need others much at all, and so has little apparent reason to participate in the emotional signaling of a close relationship.

Dismissives are rarely so open about declaring themselves. They think highly of themselves and will tell you they value their self-sufficiency and independence—needing others is weak, feelings of attachment are strings that hold you down, empathy and sympathy are for lesser creatures.

A Dismissive often has a story of a previous relationship which was never fully realized or ended when his partner left—early in his romantic life, or perhaps long-distance. The memory of this idealized previous partner is used as a weapon when the Dismissive tires—as they quickly do—of a real relationship and its demands; no one could measure up to the one that got away. This is another distancing trick to keep real intimacy at bay.

Dismissives have poor access to early emotional memories, having built a defensive shield of self-esteem and self-sufficiency that requires negative memories to be suppressed:

Adults characterized as “dismissing of attachment” seemed unable or unwilling to take attachment issues seriously. They answered questions in a guarded way, without much elaboration, and often had trouble remembering their childhoods. They seemed to dislike and distrust looking inward. Some exhibited an underlying animosity that seemed to imply: “Why are you asking me to dredge up this stuff?” or “The whole point of this interview is stupid!” The dismissing adults spoke vaguely about their parents, frequently describing them in idealized terms. But when pressed for incidents that might illustrate such descriptions, their memories contradicted their assessments, as negative facts leaked into their narratives. Thus, one parent called his mother “nice” but eventually revealed that she was often drunk and swore at him. When asked if that bothered him, he replied, “Not at all. That’s what made me the strong person I am today. I’m not like those people at work who have to hold [each other’s] hands before making a decision.”

 

[Rudolph Mondal]

Interesting that you brought it up. I'm probably (very high probability) of the anxious-preoccupied type. Often though, especially around people I want to impress in some way, I pretend I'm of the dismissive-avoidant type. I think most people who see me in university would think of me that way if they were familiar with attachment types but that's only an act I put on, unfortunately.

People of the anxious-preoccupied type (who we will call the Preoccupied) are the second largest attachment type group, at about 20% of the population. Because their early attachment needs were unsatisfied or inconsistently satisfied, they crave intimacy but tend to feel doubtful about their own worth, making it harder for them to trust that they are loved and cared for. At the extremes, and with a more secure or dismissive partner, they are viewed as “needy” or “clingy,” and can drive others away by their demands for attention. Many have never been able to come to terms with memories of parental failures:

Often they spoke as if the feelings of hurt and anger they had as children were as alive in them today as they had been twenty or thirty years before. The childhoods they described were often characterized by intense efforts to please their parents, considerable anger and disappointment, and by role reversals in which the child had tried to parent the adult. But these memories were expressed in a confused and incoherent manner, as if they had never been able to get a grip on what happened to them and integrate it into a comprehensible picture. They seemed still so enmeshed with their parents that infantile feelings flooded and bewildered them as they recalled the past. –Karen, p. 386

This insecurity is often the result of an insecure parental figure who is herself too needy to allow her child independence with assurance:

A mother who has never worked through her own ambivalent attachment has probably been struggling all her life to find stable love. When she was a child, she may have been pained by the competent, steady caring that she saw friends’ parents give to them. As an adult she may be prone to a nagging, uncontrollable jealousy in any close relationships, where she feels cause for doubt. She may want to love deeply and steadily, but it is hard for her because she’s never been filled up enough with patient, reliable love to be in a position to give it…. Some preoccupied mothers frequently intrude when the baby is happily exploring on his own and push for interaction even when the baby resists it…. For if a mother unconsciously wishes to keep a baby addicted to her, there is no better strategy than being inconsistently available. Nothing makes a laboratory rat push a pedal more furiously than an inconsistent reward. –Karen, p. 375

As preoccupied children grow up, others notice they are too self-centered to quietly listen to emotional messages sent by others, and likely to be unreliable partners in games or work, as in this assessment by fellow students:

The preoccupied students—embroiled, angry, and incoherent when speaking about their parents—“were seen by their peers as more anxious, introspective, ruminative.” –Karen, p. 383

Since they require constant messages of reassurance, the preoccupied find it hard to venture away from their partners or loved ones to accomplish goals, and will undermine their partners if necessary to keep their attention for themselves. The classic clingy child or parent or partner is acting out their anxiety about abandonment:

[The preoccupied] are hypervigilant about separations, likely to become anxious or even panicky when left, and to be overcome by feelings of clinginess and impotent rage. They do not readily venture forth or take chances, for they do not believe their attachment needs will ever be met. They cling tenaciously to what they have, often using guilt and blame to keep their attachment figures on a short leash. –Karen, p. 385

Anxious [preoccupied] children learn to manipulate to get their needs met, and invariably their manipulations get carried over into adulthood. The child may become seductive or cute, act fretful, or make others feel guilty for not giving him the attention he wants, all depending on the what strategic styles are modeled or succeed in the family. –Karen, p. 399

In Hazan and Shaver’s study, preoccupied adults in a work setting “tended to procrastinate, had difficulty concentrating, and were most distracted by interpersonal concerns. They also had the lowest average income.” This inability to concentrate on anything but relationships handicaps the preoccupied, and makes them trouble for teams where they will put their need for reassurance ahead of the task at hand. As a team member, the preoccupied require more management time and attention, and produce less work.

In dating, the preoccupied put their best foot forward and try too hard, sometimes missing the subtle cues that would allow them to listen better to understand their partner’s feelings. They feel they must always prove themselves and act to keep your interest—they want constant interaction, constant touch and reassurance, which other types can find maddening. As long as they are getting the attention they want, they will let their partner get away with being difficult in other ways—even negative attention is keeping the touch game going. If their relationships last, it is often because they have found a partner whose insecurities dovetail with theirs, who will participate in a dysfunctional game similar to what they were raised with. While the preoccupied have strong feelings and can discuss them when calm, their feelings are centered around their needs for attention and the failures of others to provide it on demand. They commonly blame others for not understanding their feelings and needs while not feeling safe enough in the relationship to describe them openly. They want to merge with their partner, so this type is prone to codependence—a dysfunctional mutual dependence where neither partner matures further. They are profoundly disturbed by and resist even short separations. The single Preoccupied badly wants a partner and spends a lot of time feeling lonely.

The key to happier relationships for the anxious-preoccupied is working toward an inner feeling of security and independence. This is easier when a Secure partner is present — the reliability of the partner’s signalling and response reassures, letting inner security grow. But even the single Preoccupied can take a clue from their type label — they are preoccupied with the idea of a relationship. Getting involved with absorbing activities and friendships with others can take their mind off the problem of partner relationships. And self-coaching can help — replacing inner dialog about failings and worries about what others think of you with reassuring self-talk can help prevent overly-clingy and paranoid behavior that drives away significant others. Build confidence in yourself and your value by accomplishing real tasks, and try harder to see things from others’ point of view before acting on fears and anger about how they treat you. Soothe your own worries before they trouble others, and have more faith in their goodwill before you assume the worst.

 

[Sinny91]

I was looking for the article I read last night about attachments styles and narcissism, but I got distracted sorry.

 

[Rudolph Mondal]

I was looking for the article I read last night about attachments styles and narcissism, but I got distracted sorry.

Actually, I must thank you very much for bringing attachment types to my attention. It is mentioned for anxious-preoccupied types that:

Getting involved with absorbing activities and friendships with others can take their mind off the problem of partner relationships. And self-coaching can help — replacing inner dialog about failings and worries about what others think of you with reassuring self-talk can help prevent overly-clingy and paranoid behavior that drives away significant others. Build confidence in yourself and your value by accomplishing real tasks,

That's pretty much what I've been doing, only that I call it "immersing myself in external structures". So that means I'm on the right track towards resolving my issues, which is great.

Thank you once again!

 

[Jennywocky]

HI, I'm Rudolph Mondal. I've been active on and off on this forum. Lately more off than on. If any of you remember me at all, perhaps you'll also remember...

"... how you saw me in 'Only the Good Die Jung' and 'Typeless in Seattle' on The Simpsons!"

Anyway, so I've been on this drug called vortioxetine which coupled with therapy and some degree of willpower have allowed me to be somewhat functional again.

That's good to hear. I am glad you found something that has been helpful for you.

I've realized though, that with the evaporation, so to speak, of issues due to the regulation of neurotransmitters in my brain, more fundamental issues have emerged. This is good. It's like I'm finding myself again after all these years.

pretty common. Basically you solve one problem, and now that it's out of the way, you can dig a bit deeper and other problems are brought to light. It happens to anyone working through way through issues... So don't fret. And I'm glad you're feeling positive about it.

I'm not sure if this is entirely a bad thing though, or even something that isn't very common. Of course I haven't had any experiences from someone else's vantage point so I wouldn't know for sure but I think a lot of people are motivated to do something because of the sort of impression of themselves that others would be lead to.

Controlling other's perceptions of ourselves is a pretty common human ailment, although some people care more than others. The differences are more rooted in the motivations and specifics of the person in question, but having others view us the way we want to be viewed? Pretty normal. I guess at some point you have to decide how much you're willing to sacrifice and/or control others in order to make it happen, and whether that's something you can live with.

I'm curious though as to how this desire within me to have others think of me as being extremely intelligent arose in the first place. Since young everyone has told me that I'm pretty intelligent but somehow I've never been satisfied. I've always wanted to prove myself to be superior to everyone else. My self esteem gets crushed if I can clearly see that someone's probably more intelligent than I am. Actually, a story comes to mind. I used to have this friend between the ages of 16 and 19 whom I then considered to be my best friend. He's probably the most intelligent person I've come across in my life. People consider scientists or philosophers or inventors etc to be extremely intelligent but what they're seeing is maybe a little bit of intelligence but mainly what they're seeing is perseverance. But this guy was extremely intelligent in pretty much every conceivable way. His intelligence is very fluid and general such that in can be applied with equal success to any area. Sports, academics, writing, board games, leadership/management, music, art, social skills, you name it. In particular he's a great charmer, he's able to attract anyone he wishes to attract. He isn't exactly an ethical person though, he has somewhat of a manipulative streak which goes unnoticed by most people. But in any case, he devastated my confidence in myself the whole time I was with him. I don't meet up with him anymore because he always fills me with this heavy sense of being incompetent and unintelligent.

Well, for whatever reason you value those attributes, and in a group setting people tend to "fill roles" based on what they are good at it. I think it's normal to at least feel expendable if the thing you think you're best at or feel most good about yourself is constantly overshadowed by someone else who takes that role from you. At that point, either you find a place where you fit or you foster other parts of who you are in order to enjoy the relationship. Is there stuff you could offer in this friendship that your friend isn't good at? (for example) I think the more well-rounded we are as people, the more "types" of relationships we can actually have because we are able to shift roles. You wouldn't always have to be the Smart One, you could end up being the Creative One or the Kind One or some other contribution, and still feel good about things.

Have you ever watched a video or perhaps in real life, be it say a lecture or a documentary or a film, whereby you get captivated by the person and wish, even unconsciously, to emulate him? Often after the lecture or documentary or film or whatever ends I'd behave like that person and talk like him. Even my accent changes. I do realize it sooner or later though but most of the time I suppress my realization and let the act continue anyway.

I've had that feeling, but usually it doesn't go so far... If it's stuff that I have a TALENT for, sure... for example, great musicians inspire me to hone my own abilities. But sometimes I'll see someone who is a great motivator or someone who tirelessly can help others who are in trouble... that's not stuff I'm great at, and I run out of energy quick. So while I might feel momentary envy, I am aware of my own intrinsic strengths and weaknesses and, while I can always improve, I'm quick to recognize the fair range of my abilities.

I've entertained the possibility that I might be an INFJ but everyone thinks they might be INFJ don't they? I'm fairly certain my enneagram tritype is 548/458 though if that means anything to anyone.

Here's the reference material for that if anyone needs it:

Spoiler

458 – The Scholar Archetype

The 845 is the somewhat introverted, intelligent, headstrong, detached, hyper introspective problem solver with strategic thinking and emotional astuteness.

*Darkest tritype-458, 854, 584 (particularly when 4 or 5 are in charge)

Also if you are still considering 548 (or 845): she said this is the the most intense type, particularly if sexual. Intuitive, knowledgeable and direct. This is the type that really craves knowing what makes people tick and builds what she calls mental or internal maps that are quite astute as to what makes people do what they do. This tends to be the darkest of the tritypes because of the intensity of the 3 types (particularly if 4 or 5 is in charge). David said there is a propensity toward the grotesque, anatomical or intensely esoteric. This is the "true scholar" and the life mission is to disseminate what information is found. The blind spot is this has 3 types that can be prone to arrogance and the attachment to the internal map of what they've found can make them blind to new information as it comes in. So there will be a tendency to become fixed in their worldview or ideas particularly about people and not take in new information. So while the map is quite extraordinary that they've painted they may miss a whole region and thus not have the full picture. This is also the most cynical and the tendency to be so overly opinionated can make people turn off to their wisdom. She said when 8 is in charge there is a bit more compassion, and with an integrated 5 or 4 in charge you get a gifted spiritual teacher (Russ Hudson for example)
An intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and to find the hidden meaning in all things.

874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.

‎854 and 862 share the self-possessed confidence with solution mastery. The 854 is the artsy and intellectual 8 -- with a secret self-consciousness. The 862 is the champion rescuer, protector with a great need to help-- more duty.

the 468 is a true challenger and truth teller. The 4 may be shy but this Tritype is very intense and reactive--quick to speak their mind. The 485 is the true intellectual that has strong opinions about their feelings and thoughts but less reactivity. Sexual instinct with 4 dominant makes both tritypes more intense. The 468, however, is more dutiful and feisty whereas the 458 is one of the tritypes that lives in their head researching and following their own muse.

‎846 vs 845. These two tritypes are very different. Both take charge and seek solutions. The 846 is one of the most confrontational tritypes. The other is the 836. The 6 amplifies the 8 need for loyalty and trust. The 845 is more introverted and introspective. The 854 has 5 as a line of connection as well as in the tritype and makes this 8 more scholarly and focused on depth.

(4)-5-8 - The Power-Seeking 4
4-(5)-8 - The Reactive 5
4-5-(8) - The Withdrawn 8

Impenetrable inner world. They are complex individuals, but they are more characterized by the way they tend to push everyone away from them.

5-8-4: Most Intense Five. Needs creativity. Can be moody and melancholy.

458 is the most tough-minded and opinionated 4.

458 - Knowledgeable and direct 4. Most analytical 4. Craves knowing what makes people tick. Stronger Opinions.

845: Intuitive and knowledgeable 8. Most withdrawn 8, specially if introverted, 9 wing and/or sp.

The 458 is an active archetype...just more withdrawn...not passive like the librarian... more the expert as they gather knowledge but have a very definite point of view like the 478 and 468.

five with an eight fix: least intellectual, though perhaps the most mentally intense. unsettled by occasional fits of temper, sudden outbursts. affixed to notions of power; attitude of resigned realist. quietly guarded and insistent, may put others ill at ease.

eight with a four fix: the moody, loner eight. distinct outsider quality; as if on a highly
personal mission. tendency to feel exempt from conventional rules
and circumstances.

The 458 is more openly emotional and expressive. The 548 is more mental and reserved...like the difference between 4 and 5. Both are intuitive thinkers and tend to be introverted. They are intellectuals that take action when they feel strongly about something. Others are always surprised when the 8 appears as this tritype appears quiet.

A couple of distinctions...The 458 is more emotionally expressive than the 548. The content can be very different. The 458 is more inclined to talk about their feelings about a subject of interest whereas the 548 will be more reserved and speak about tinteresting facts about a subject. The energy of the 458 is focused on the analysis of their feelings first whereas the 548 is focused on the analysis of the information first.

Social increases the need to have the critical information needed to be interesting to others-- to be wise and in the know. Sp increases the focus on the the basics... the resources one must expend to have the information.What will the cost be? All 6 variations of the 458 will avoid being ignorant and speak up for what they believe in. For example, in contrast, the sp548 will be far more reluctant to speak than the sx845 but both fear being inadequate, incompetent and powerless.

The 4-5-8 is the most direct and blunt of all the tritypes, with the exception of perhaps 3-5-8

874 and 854 are very similar and can be difficult to distinguish as 8 has access to both 7 and 5. What is helpful is to look at the differences between 7 and 5. The most critical aspect engagement. The 7 engages and brings a positive outlook to the 84_. The 5 is more internal and brings more introversion and reserve. The 874 is more outgoing and spontaneous. it is the difference between facts vs activities.

seeing your place as in the shadows is exactly how the 458 describes themselves. The 458, 468 and 478 are all truth tellers in their own way. The 468 is the one that is hyper reactive and still seeks a fair authority. The 458 and 478 are their own authorities.

the 548 tritype is the 5 most likely to appear 4-ish.

I think that 458 tritype could be mis-typed as 5, but this is much less likely than a 548 being mis-typed as a 4. It is double reactivity and resultant emotional intensity/volatility of having 4 and 8 together that clashes with the 5, even when 5 is core.

out of 458/459/451 I'd guess that both 459 and 451 would seem more 5-like (or, more accurately, be more likely to be mis-typed as 5) than 458.

The 485 is an intensely original archetype with a passion to explore and find the hidden meaning in all things.

The 845 is more introverted intuition with the attention going inward. It can be darker and is more cynical.

(EIDB 548 tritype discussion thread: The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board - 5 4 8 Tritype ):

[Intense, especially with sx first. Independent, dark, cynical. Most eccentric, creative 5 that tends to swing between detachment and emotionality. Most 4ish 5, especially with four wing. Tough-minded, analytical 4 that is staunchly individualistic. Withdrawn, sensitive, creative 8. "Scholar" archetype if I remember correctly. Wants to know what makes people tick.

Actually, I think this 5 would be more fantasy oriented than information oriented. This would be the dreamy 5.

What I was criticising was the implication that the unique view a 5-4-8 creates is a monolithic system which doesn't change or adjust due to presumably stasis or narcissism or an inability to take criticism. Dynamism, flux and big intellectual shifts are much more likely.
While a 5-4-8 is likely to be an intellectual narcissist, I think any criticism that they are unable to change or adjust their view is the opposite of the case because there is an intense self-criticism as well. Change and flux are constant.

first, because 5-4-8's are unlikely to think in systems (which you've now agreed with), and second, because of their sensitivity to inconsistency, constant self-criticism and tendency to change positions.
I think there is an element of truth in the description though, in that 5-4-8's can be wilfully perverse and too arrogant to accept criticism from others. But they are likely to outwardly repudiate that criticism, and then later modify their views accordingly rather than stubbornly retain their original position.

My experience of this type is of course my only experience of any kind, so hard to be 'objective'. But here goes. I find it a complex, contradictory and often perplexing type to be. The 3 numbers pull against each other, and there is no social element(3, 6, or 9) to smooth the way. This is exacerbated if you have SO as your last stacking. Although all generalisations are suspect (including this one), it is particularly hard to generalise about this tritype. This tritype seems peculiarly subject to flux, and thus can vary greatly, or have many different real selves.
However, dark, eccentric, creative, cynical, sensitive, scholarly are not wide of the mark (although tend to create a caricature if taken too seriously). It's true that we tend to be intensely interested in the psychology of other people, if only because we are at an utter loss to figure out ourselves much of the time. In a way, we are natural scholars but too scholarly, polymathic and restless for universities these days, which reward the careerist specialist.
5-4-8's are subject to rapid oscillations of emotion and thought, equally capable of preternatural strength and weakness of mind at any given moment. One minute an angel, the next a cruel tyrant. A lot of love and a lot of hate. Exquisitely sensitive but all too capable of cruelty and callousness to others. One wants to know, in a totalizing and essential fashion, know poetically but know precisely as well, but never quite gets there.

We are paradox-mongers, live in metaphor, and are always trying to find new ways to say and see things (and hence are often pretentious) - i.e. iconoclasts - but can be as pedantic, systematic and anally analytical as anyone - i.e. using our 5-ness to beat others at their own games when they have underestimated us as loose, kooky or not with it.
5-4-8's have a predisposition to religion and philosophy, especially pessimistic and melancholic strains, but a commensurate disappointment with the lack of answers that satisfy us and a concomitant melancholy.

I would caution against such a romanticized view of this tritype as it may defeat the value of knowing one’s type. I would disagree with a lot of the first things you said about this combination – “many real selves” and “subject to flux”. I find a kind of coherency in that here you’ve got two reactive types (4,8) two rejection (5,8) two withdrawn (4,5) and three very independent, very resistant to anything that originates outside itself, and not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. The greatest fluctuation I feel is between feeling incredibly hard and strong to being very self-conscious and inept. Strong and Vulnerable are my two modes, brought out when I feel I am unable to make that leap across the fragments of words and space between myself and someone I have an interest in.

I believe Nietzsche and Gurdjieff were of this tritype, though G may have had 7 instead of 5, but Katherine Fauvre very much agreed with me when I said there was something “Hermetic” about this tri-type. There is a kind of de-construction of present systems and a reconstruction into something that subverts previously-held notions. I like to think of myself as an “ontological terrorist”. Nietzsche is a beautiful illustration of what I see as the gift of this tritype – of staring past the fragility in the conceptions humans, as living and rational beings, hope to cling to and look into something “under”, to poke around in [blocked due to guideline #4 violation], and reveal the beauty within it. Hades operates under a kind of 854 archetypal pattern. There’s the destructive power and energy to produce an impact of 8, along with the “ground-up” construction and innovation of 5 with the creativity and will to rebirth of 4. Of course, that’s only there in the best examples of this tritype, a call the rest of us can only hope to live up to.

There are of course coherent factors - otherwise there wouldn't be a category. However, I still feel that the concept of change over time is very important to 548. I guess this is what I mean by different selves - the many different selves over one's life (which is also true of everyone). That is, think of Heraclitus's saw - you cannot step into the same river twice. Not just because the river has changed, but because you are - that minute to minute one's self is mutating, adapting, contradicting itself. This does not necessarily have to defeat the concept of a core coherent self, but certainly challenges it.

I disagree with your point that 548s are not particularly concerned with objectivity, consistency, or interested in being accessible in any way. While these three values are pretty hard to attain, and difficult to define, they are pretty important to me, at least some of the time - and especially in any discrete intellectual task I want to complete.

5-4-8: more reactive and temperamental, such Fives find it harder to control their emotions than other tritypes. They are basically sensitive, reclusive and ingenious, occasionally indulging in (romantic) day-dreams and fantasies, but once in a while their fierce, visceral side reveals itself explosively and gets to surprise people who don’t know them well. These Fives are usually selfish and whimsical, considering themselves entitled to special treatment which they will sometimes claim aggressively. They are prone to mood swings and rage outbursts.
typical subtypes: sexual, self-preserving, 5w4
similar tritypes: 5-8-4, 4-5-8
flavours: innovative, temperamental, egocentric and intense

5-8-4: original, rebellious, temperamental and highly individualistic and independent, these Fives are can be extremely self-focused and mostly unconcerned with other people’s feelings and wants. They are often inspired and have great vision which they strive to turn into reality – they have a practical side which helps them. Although brilliant and resourceful, others may find it hard to deal with their self-important, narcissistic behavior and their oversensitivity to frustration – their violent reactions can be scary.
typical subtypes: sexual, 5w4, 5w6 (counterphobic wing)
similar tritypes: 5-4-8, 8-5-4
flavours: resourceful, defiant, visionary and reactive

I'm not sure of what type you are, I just don't know you that well.

The way you write, though, you don't come across as aggressive in an Eight way, especially in comparison to some other members here... in fact, you seem kind of apt to be pushed around by those with stronger Eight leanings. (That's just an honest observation.) You're low-key open and self-deprecating, and sound rather unsure of yourself. All of which you've stated as part of your content as well.

Sounds also like your Ego structure is not highly developed, for whatever reason; I think the Ego is where we find our tenacity, it's what we use to negotiate between the world's demands and our own internal impulses. You don't sound like you are driven by your Id except for maybe momentary bursts of emotions (when stressed), and you don't sound particularly driven at least by guilt like the Superego folks. You seem to be meandering about at the moment and spend a lot of time emulating others from your own words. [None of that is meant disparagingly; again, just observations.]

Usually INFJs seem more structured and more deferential to social expectations (they have a decent sense of what is expected of them) from their Fe Aux, but you seem to key off other things / have other motivations. Although I admit I don't have a ton of experience with INFJ guys, just females, so...

I was looking for the article I read last night about attachments styles and narcissism, but I got distracted sorry.

haha! Yeah, I was reading your post and trying to figure out how it was connected with his OP....

I'm more avoidant-fearful myself, if I had to pick the closest....

 

[Sinny91]

You're welcome
Now, can you fix me?

Lol Jenny, in the back of my mind, I too, heard an echo of Troy McClure aha.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

He isn't exactly an ethical person though, he has somewhat of a manipulative streak which goes unnoticed by most people. But in any case, he devastated my confidence in myself the whole time I was with him. I don't meet up with him anymore because he always fills me with this heavy sense of being incompetent and unintelligent.

Is that so? I find it difficult to follow. How was he unethical? Isn't it something you are making up to convince yourself that the decision to leave him wasn't entirely narcissistic and about your feeling of inferiority?

I've met with people who would rather make up things about their past just to preserve their self image.

Please do share if you've experienced anything similar to what I've written. I get the feeling people don't like me much on this forum. But that's okay, it's the same everywhere I go anyway.

So you've mentioned that only your parents care about you and now you mention this. I won't be hard on you because of your condition, but this is the same self-centered pattern that you probably should erradicate.

First off, it's awesome that someone cares about you at all, many people don't even have good parents to help them, any expectation beyond that is unreasonable, if you don't have anyone to care about you, it's because you didn't earn it and even if you earn the relationship it's often uncertain and difficult to maintain, or to enjoy the experience on both sides (it takes effort of two people, not just one to succeed at any interaction, some people won't like you and there's nothing you can do about it, it's just chemistry or bad luck).

Truth is that no one is expected to care about you, anyone reaching out to you and helping you is a gift that you should learn and know how to appreciate in life.


You seem very insecure about people liking you or finding you valuable, I think the key to that is being and not pretending. If you pretend, some might fall for your appearances but you will still see your lies, if you are a great person, people will flock to you naturally. How to be a likeable person? By doing and trying things. If you talk to someone, it shouldn't be because you want to make them respect you, that attitude is bound to fail if you expect reciprocity and provide no sincerity of your own.

 

[Rudolph Mondal]

Is that so? I find it difficult to follow. How was he unethical? Isn't it something you are making up to convince yourself that the decision to leave him wasn't entirely narcissistic and about your feeling of inferiority?

I've met with people who would rather make up things about their past just to preserve their self image.

That may be part of it but since I didn't elaborate, I don't think it's very fair to come to conclusions like that.

I won't be hard on you because of your condition

Sticks and stones will break my bones
But words will never harm me.

I think the key to that is being and not pretending. If you pretend, some might fall for your appearances but you will still see your lies, if you are a great person, people will flock to you naturally. How to be a likeable person? By doing and trying things. If you talk to someone, it shouldn't be because you want to make them respect you, that attitude is bound to fail if you expect reciprocity and provide no sincerity of your own.

If I do end up speaking to someone in person I do tell them the truth, that I don't know who I am and that I have narcissistic/egotistical issues. I try to be as honest as possible when conversing with someone one-to-one, I really do. What I say to the person would be what I believe to be true at that moment and later on I do try to clarify if I no longer hold those things to be true.

Also, I don't think people necessarily only flock to people who are great. (in the sense of being good and inviting and open etc) There are lots of examples in history which demonstrate otherwise.

Thirdly, if one asks me to Be, then who do I Be? If I am asked to Be who I am, how can I do so if I don't know who I am?

I agree that I am very insecure. I am trying to overcome that by as you said, doing and trying things.

 

[Rudolph Mondal]

Well, for whatever reason you value those attributes, and in a group setting people tend to "fill roles" based on what they are good at it. I think it's normal to at least feel expendable if the thing you think you're best at or feel most good about yourself is constantly overshadowed by someone else who takes that role from you. At that point, either you find a place where you fit or you foster other parts of who you are in order to enjoy the relationship. Is there stuff you could offer in this friendship that your friend isn't good at? (for example) I think the more well-rounded we are as people, the more "types" of relationships we can actually have because we are able to shift roles. You wouldn't always have to be the Smart One, you could end up being the Creative One or the Kind One or some other contribution, and still feel good about things.

I think that's very good advice for me. Thank you! I think being able to play more roles for me would be to engage in things I don't usually (or never) do. I've been trying that, albeit a bit slowly. For example, today (or yesterday, rather, since it's already morning here) we had an interview workshop thing in our university and I volunteered to be the one to be interviewed in my group so that the trainer could use my example to point out whatever had gone wrong. (or right) I was pretty nervous the whole time and the questions were tough for me since I'm not someone who often engages with the external world but I'm glad I did it because I learned a lot of things in the process and it loosened the barrier between myself and the external world.

The way you write, though, you don't come across as aggressive in an Eight way, especially in comparison to some other members here... in fact, you seem kind of apt to be pushed around by those with stronger Eight leanings. (That's just an honest observation.) You're low-key open and self-deprecating, and sound rather unsure of yourself. All of which you've stated as part of your content as well.

Perhaps me seeing myself as a 458 tritype was who I believed myself to be, an identity that I wanted to identify with. I don't know...there are layers of thoughts which go on inside and I don't know which layer to trust. Sometimes it seems like some sort of vicious cycle or loop. I don't know what to believe.

This is why initially this term I was heavily focused on the external world (academics) but I realized that it caused me to behave in an arrogant sort of way which caused me more harm than good. So my idea now is to try and focus on the subjects, say, for their own sake. To avoid using them as a means of trying to demonstrate my superiority. (which almost always backfires) But this approach requires me to look within myself and try and recognize my flaws and shortcomings...

Sounds also like your Ego structure is not highly developed, for whatever reason; I think the Ego is where we find our tenacity, it's what we use to negotiate between the world's demands and our own internal impulses. You don't sound like you are driven by your Id except for maybe momentary bursts of emotions (when stressed), and you don't sound particularly driven at least by guilt like the Superego folks. You seem to be meandering about at the moment and spend a lot of time emulating others from your own words. [None of that is meant disparagingly; again, just observations.]

Hmm...I think maybe I am driven by my Id to some degree. The reason why I say this is because I've realized that what makes me really contended, what I would want to continue on and on and not stop is to have intimate/deep conversations with people. I realized this because with other stuff like say academics, it's very interesting and all but once I finish the task I feel relieved while with having deep/intimate conversations with people, I don't want the experience to end.

Last Friday I sat down with a guy and a girl from my university and I felt that it was the most intimate conversation I'd had since maybe May last year. It was there that I realized I really enjoy having deep/intimate conversations with people because I asked them what they do to relax and when it came to my turn, I couldn't really think of anything and then I realized I was relaxed then and enjoying it and didn't want it to end and so I said I relax by talking to people...which isn't really something they expected since I keep to myself most of the time. I'd like to have the same intensity of conversation with those two again but I doubt it'd be possible. It was a once in a blue moon sort of experience.

At this point maybe it seems like I'm an INFP? I don't know.

I hope I can have a stable identity some day though. Are a lot of people my age (I'm 21) like this?

 

[Jennywocky]

I hope I can have a stable identity some day though. Are a lot of people my age (I'm 21) like this?

While it depends on the environment you grow up in (some environments can help clarify who you are, some environments beat you down and/or force you into situations where it's far more advantageous to be someone else), we're always learning and growing throughout life to some degree, and it's not always easy to put words to understandings especially in a particular typological lexicon.

I didn't even hear of the MBTI until I was 25. All I knew was that i felt very alone and that no one really grasped me. In college, I met 2-3 people who I really connected with, like they were "another me," and I didn't really understand why. When I ran across MBTI and then some other systems later, I finally realized that I connected with those folks because we shared similar motivations and ways of evaluating the world.

So I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Also, is it important that you know how to label yourself in the MBTI, or is it just important that you can recognize certain qualities about yourself (strengths and weaknesses), and figure out how YOU work? Regardless of what you call it? Can you just make a list of things that "are" you and things that "are not" you? One thing i can say when I look back at my life from this vantage point -- I actually knew who I was in terms of those traits and things from a young age, but I took the "long way around" and confused myself by overthinking them. I'm actually pretty much the same as I knew I was when I was a teenager but I doubted myself..

(The one trait I felt like I cultivated -- I didn't have it when young but developed it throughout some harsh adversity -- was courage. But maybe that's something you can't be sure you have as a trait until you see yourself going through scary experiences and refusing to quit. It needs experience to be labeled as such. Perhaps there are some other traits like that as well. Like consistency of character.)

 

[Rudolph Mondal]

While it depends on the environment you grow up in (some environments can help clarify who you are, some environments beat you down and/or force you into situations where it's far more advantageous to be someone else), we're always learning and growing throughout life to some degree, and it's not always easy to put words to understandings especially in a particular typological lexicon.

In the current environment that I'm in, I think thinking types have quite a bit of advantage over feeling types. I think that's true for most of the world actually, especially if one is a guy but it's particularly pronounced in a place like Singapore.

I didn't even hear of the MBTI until I was 25. All I knew was that i felt very alone and that no one really grasped me. In college, I met 2-3 people who I really connected with, like they were "another me," and I didn't really understand why. When I ran across MBTI and then some other systems later, I finally realized that I connected with those folks because we shared similar motivations and ways of evaluating the world.

When I first came across the mbti and the enneagram I felt as if finally there was a definition of sorts or a category to which the person I thought I was belonged to. But later I started questioning everything, whether I really was the way that I perceived myself to be and that opened up a whole can of worms that I've yet to resolve. I have friends in real life, certainly, but I don't think they're "another me" unfortunately. I suppose that's because I have no concrete self-concept to begin with.

So I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Also, is it important that you know how to label yourself in the MBTI, or is it just important that you can recognize certain qualities about yourself (strengths and weaknesses), and figure out how YOU work? Regardless of what you call it? Can you just make a list of things that "are" you and things that "are not" you? One thing i can say when I look back at my life from this vantage point -- I actually knew who I was in terms of those traits and things from a young age, but I took the "long way around" and confused myself by overthinking them. I'm actually pretty much the same as I knew I was when I was a teenager but I doubted myself..

Right now I'm very reluctant to make a list of things that "are" me and things that "aren't" me. I used to do that a lot in the past but then I realized that a lot of what I thought "weren't" me were actually aspects of myself that I ignored unconsciously because I didn't like those aspects of who I was. For example, I might think that I'm a fairly curious person but soon enough I go through a phase where nothing or very little interests me and everything seems pointless to learn. Right now, I think I'm interested in a lot of things but I don't know, maybe if no one valued me for being interested in those things I wouldn't be interested in them any more.

Maybe one thing that is constant is my continuous need for external validation for what I'm doing or who I am. I think I should probably mention this to my therapist and psychologist.

Maybe it was how I was brought up in the first three years of my life? I grew up in my Maternal Grandparents home and being the only child in the house at the time, I received a lot of attention from everyone. (Grandparents, Uncles, Aunts, Neighbours) I was extremely sheltered and everyone adored me very much. Maybe later I didn't receive that amount of attention and adoration as I did in my first three years because we moved to Singapore when I was three and the whole thing started..

But I suppose ruminating about the past doesn't help. The problem exists now and so I should focus on how to eliminate it at the present moment. I'm trying to improve things slowly by interacting with people more often and trying to immerse myself in the university environment. I felt very alienated from the university environment last term but this term I'm much more comfortable with it. I'm melting the barriers I've put up slowly. Thing is, people already perceive me to be a certain way which is why interacting with people is harder because right now its always me initiating the interaction. I suppose it'll get better with time.

Thanks for all your help and advice, btw. Much appreciated!

 

[tyjdx]

I actually knew who I was in terms of those traits and things from a young age, but I took the "long way around" and confused myself by overthinking them. I'm actually pretty much the same as I knew I was when I was a teenager but I doubted myself..

I have that same feeling, it's sort of a haunting one, really. I like that observation.

...he has somewhat of a manipulative streak which goes unnoticed by most people...

Manipulative streaks won't be seen by most people in general, else it would just be someone being... I don't know, bossy or socially incapable. Manipulation is effective because people don't know they're being manipulative. (I know this because I have been /that/ guy.)