How do we reconcile the Dionysian and the Apollonian

[Tannhauser]

Recently I have been thinking about how to reconcile the striving for perfection of the intellect with the wild nature of humanity. I think that a lot of the time we are being torn between these two ideals. I also think that modern society has been leaning more and more towards the latter.

It hit me that this is basically the Dionysian/Apollonian dichotomy of Nietzsche. The Dionysian is all about experience, wild expression, or "saying 'yes' to life" as Nietzsche put it. The Apollonian is all about the intellect, rational thought. In Nietzsche's view it is inherently negative towards life, and that is why he thought Socrates viewed the hemlock as a cure for life. He didn't say that either of them was the right one though:

The issue, then, or so Nietzsche thought, is how to experience and understand the Dionysian side of life without destroying the obvious values of the Apollonian side. It is not healthy for an individual, or for a whole society, to become entirely absorbed in the rule of one or the other.

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_Tragedy)

So the question is – how does one do that in practice. And I mean especially on a personal level. It seems that the path of least resistance is to pick either one of them: you often see people very disconnected from the intellectual sphere, and on the other hand flat out nerds who completely disregard life itself and only focus on intellectual analysis. But as I think Nietzsche correctly realized, the correct way is to embrace both.

 

[TBerg]

Julius Evola said it was impossible because the rational channel will take contradictory and chaotic forms after having been flooded by the chaos of the id.

He also said that your conquering ego will often face setbacks, meaning that you need more than whatever mental artifice you have created in order to survive postmodernity. The time requires a sense of grounded being in which you don't create a newer and newer self, but merely begin to apprehend the causality of reality as it is, and thereby do not hold onto a certain sense of self but merely hold onto reality as it comes to you.

 

[Tannhauser]

That's interesting. I wasn't aware of this guy's work.

Apparently Nietzsche thought listening to Wagner could be a part of the solution, although I'm not sure how well that actually works. I am pretty sure music somehow plays a role though.

 

[TBerg]

Yeah, he's a good step off of Nietzsche.

One thing to understand is that your music would not agree with other's music in the postmodern world, and so your music will create discordance until we begin to sing the same tune.

The problem with postmodernity is that it is a cacophony.

 

[Tannhauser]

You mean as in joining the Dionysian feast as it manifests itself in modern culture? Certainly one would have to find the right crowds, the ones which satisfy one's Dionysian tastes. If I understand you correctly..

As to the general solution – can't one just read philosophy books on weekdays and go out during weekends? I think first and foremost, the Dionysian mode must be accepted on a philosophical level.

 

[Architect]

Romantic music, especially late Romantic like Wagner does capture the idea somewhat. In previous centuries music was bound by the court, so while emotionally expressive also didn't stray outside of those bounds. With the Romantic era, more or less kicked off by Beethoven, music expression came more from a spirit of individualism and self, and so included more of the Dionysus spirit. Gotterdammerung has some of this, but in a epic grand destructive way more than the typical free spirited Dionysus.

In practice I don't see much of an issue. For society we have both extremes - extreme intellectualism and intellectual thought, and on the other hand we have the Kardashians. Individually we can all have wild fun and also do our intellectual work (e.g. fun in the bedroom before we go to work). Where do we need reconciliation? Appears to me that we have two worlds for our self expression, they don't need to be reconciled.

 

[TBerg]

The music we hear is either something like deracinated voodoo, meaning that it has echoes of demonic possession, or has been deliberately constructed to confuse the sense of reality. Unless, of course, you find musical genres that still adhere to certain European forms. That would bring you closer to what Nietzsche had in mind when he was talking about the forms of Hellenic music that involved the tragic picture of reality rather than what he called the "cheerful Greeks" who descended from these origins and whose music made the tragedy of reality more opaque rather than clear.

 

[Black Rose]

Laughter is the best medicine.
I just googled "don't do drugs kids" memes in image search.
Thank God for earbuds and nightcore.
btw I'm high on Jesus,
I only do the drugs my doctor prescribes.
My energy is so drained right now. (bad day)
But I feel so self-aware.
As long as the music comes in clear I don't care what it is because: self-awareness.
Extraverted Sensation is the best thing ever. Makes me feel calmed down and alive.
To merge the Dionysian and the Apollonian read stuff online with the music playlist blazing and just relax.

 

[Nofriends]

Laughter is the best medicine.
I just googled "don't do drugs kids" memes in image search.
Thank God for earbuds and nightcore.
btw I'm high on Jesus,
I only do the drugs my doctor prescribes.
My energy is so drained right now. (bad day)
But I feel so self-aware.
As long as the music comes in clear I don't care what it is because: self-awareness.
Extraverted Sensation is the best thing ever. Makes me feel calmed down and alive.
To merge the Dionysian and the Apollonian read stuff online with the music playlist blazing and just relax.

and stfu

On the matter of the reconciliation of the Dionysian and the Apollonian, methinks it would best be reconciled through entering a state of perpetual idea creation, always using the elements of the brain to generate new understandings of the world, while simultaneously acting upon our primitive animal instincts, as does our body act upon such instincts as may we; with some degree of effort.

 

[Architect]

The music we hear is either something like deracinated voodoo,

The stuff being made for popular consumption isn't music, it's a product.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

I expect this to be difficult for some to decipher, but I think it's the best I can do, for now at least. Questions and clarification (Like names for concepts. Those are great) are welcome.

I'm not sure they're separate to begin with. That whole concept reeks of Apollo . Also, there are more than two camps out there. Looks like ol' Freddy focused favorably on the two that applied to himself the most. But anyway...

Within the individual, it can't be rectified. However, every individual has a certain lean, and groups can net balance through interaction and shared knowledge and experience. The most difficult part of this is trust (some in themselves, some in the non-self), which is really what makes it seemingly impossible because there's always a selfish asshole there to fuck things up, which in reality is probably because there's some ongoing flux or adjustment in the proportion of the given subpopulations that hold a given worldview. Different maturity/developmental levels of various individuals within subpopulations are yet another caveat. These result in that wonderfully terrible cacophony thing.

The best someone can do right now is want it, reject their complacent self, seek it, and trust. There's something about authenticity that inspires mimicry, which then invites integration, which should in turn convert the chaos into something both amazing and *adjective corresponding to the noun representing whatever it is that supplants and/or transcends hyperreality*.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

music

No no no. Much more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhUvo4xj2oU

^This is close, but there are problems, particularly that there is a directive figurehead (Hardwell) in control using stereotypical horseshit like "Are you ready to party!?!?," so the level of organic expression is limited. There are also various selfish individual actions occurring in the crowd. So there is discord. However...

Look at the organism depicted; Its individual components and their individual histories, their handheld (and other invisible) connections to others beyond, their coalescence in physical space, their future plans, their self-awareness, their emotion, various fractal derivations of personal meaning, interacting with the sound itself, and the effect it broadcasts. They're tasting just the first, tiniest waves of I'm not even sure how to describe this stuff with words because I'm clearly mixing up the singular and plural aspects of pronouns attempting to do it, which, ironically is exactly what we'd expect in trying to describe such a being *listens to 0:58-2:35 in the video above "the greatest illusion in this world is the illusion of separation..."*. I might as well ask "Interrogative word are you?" We might need a relatively virgin INTP under heavy chemical 5HT agonism to translate this. How does one explain the rhythm of being/life itself?

Watch someone criticize what I wrote above as some sort of gobbledygook devoid of explanation, actively demonstrating that they're missing the point, which by its own intrinsic properties (there's much more to connection than causality, my friends) or lack thereof cannot be explained. *pre-emptive facepalm*

Some might also benefit by viewing this in terms of a physical work of art instead. A painting's colors, design, feature placements, layering, etc. could be akin to musical attributes, for example.

 

[Nofriends]

"the greatest illusion in this world is the illusion of separation..."
this is classic pseudo-intellectual talk, the idiot finally came to a realization to which i reached at a very young age, namely that everything is interconnected, for example, when i exist my presence connects with all that surrounds me, so it is impossible to separate with anything, he believes cauz his gf repudiated him he still exists with her, because of the interconnections of our self to the universe.

and for many dimwitted rats, this is an illusion, when it is unequivocal and transparent to those most astute, such as myself.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

"the greatest illusion in this world is the illusion of separation..."
this is classic pseudo-intellectual talk, the idiot finally came to a realization to which i reached at a very young age, namely that everything is interconnected, for example, when i exist my presence connects with all that surrounds me, so it is impossible to separate with anything, he believes cauz his gf repudiated him he still exists with her, because of the interconnections of our self to the universe.

and for many dimwitted rats, this is an illusion, when it is unequivocal and transparent to those most astute, such as myself.

The fact that you're attacking me indicates that you value my input/response as something to test yourself against, so I'm honestly torn between giving some honest clarification vs pulling a Xeno (Diogenes) ->

I'll go with the former, because the cute factor of your lack of self-restraint hasn't worn off yet.

Realization != experience, nor does existence itself somehow constitute some sort of prima facie evidence of experience beyond the individual level.

 

[Nofriends]

The fact that you're attacking me indicates that you value my input/response as something to test yourself against, so I'm honestly torn between giving some honest clarification vs pulling a Xeno (Diogenes) ->

I'll go with the former, because the cute factor of your lack of self-restraint hasn't worn off yet.

Realization != experience, nor does existence itself somehow constitute some sort of prima facie evidence of experience beyond the individual level.

1. I never meant to attack you, I thought the idea that you cannot separate yourself from anything was promulgated by some pussy pop culture emo

2. I assumed you to understand on a deeper subconscious level, so you are not subject to my charges.

my realization was not gained through any experiences, but rather through deliberation.

and yes, it goes beyond the individual level, why is it that philosophers argue that upon death we become all and nothing? our self is absorbed into the entirety of the UNIVERSE, except my divine presence will have far greater effect than all of yours

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

i think youre all wrong and right at the same time

 

[Tannhauser]

No no no. Much more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhUvo4xj2oU

^This is close, but there are problems, particularly that there is a directive figurehead (Hardwell) in control using stereotypical horseshit like "Are you ready to party!?!?," so the level of organic expression is limited. There are also various selfish individual actions occurring in the crowd. So there is discord. However...

Look at the organism depicted; Its individual components and their individual histories, their handheld (and other invisible) connections to others beyond, their coalescence in physical space, their future plans, their self-awareness, their emotion, various fractal derivations of personal meaning, interacting with the sound itself, and the effect it broadcasts. They're tasting just the first, tiniest waves of I'm not even sure how to describe this stuff with words because I'm clearly mixing up the singular and plural aspects of pronouns attempting to do it, which, ironically is exactly what we'd expect in trying to describe such a being *listens to 0:58-2:35 in the video above "the greatest illusion in this world is the illusion of separation..."*. I might as well ask "Interrogative word are you?" We might need a relatively virgin INTP under heavy chemical 5HT agonism to translate this. How does one explain the rhythm of being/life itself?

Watch someone criticize what I wrote above as some sort of gobbledygook devoid of explanation, actively demonstrating that they're missing the point, which by its own intrinsic properties (there's much more to connection than causality, my friends) or lack thereof cannot be explained. *pre-emptive facepalm*

Some might also benefit by viewing this in terms of a physical work of art instead. A painting's colors, design, feature placements, layering, etc. could be akin to musical attributes, for example.

I think this is good. But as you said, it is slightly tarnished by the attempts to infuse it with cliché narratives.

Unrelated to that, I realized that Richard Feynman must have been a guy who, if not fully embraced the two sides, at least came quite close to doing it. Clearly an intellectual superstar, but also someone who liked playing bongo drums and going to strip clubs.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

1. I never meant to attack you, I thought the idea that you cannot separate yourself from anything was promulgated by some pussy pop culture emo

2. I assumed you to understand on a deeper subconscious level, so you are not subject to my charges.

my realization was not gained through any experiences, but rather through deliberation.

and yes, it goes beyond the individual level, why is it that philosophers argue that upon death we become all and nothing? our self is absorbed into the entirety of the UNIVERSE, except my divine presence will have far greater effect than all of yours

Okay, so then you're just oblivious then, which isn't as bad as it sounds. You're communicating on an emotional plane that you're not even aware exists. But that's PM/VM stuff. I don't want to derail.

Though I'm not talking about realization being gained through experience either. I'm saying that that type of experience is a manifestation of when things are rectified. There's a certain synchronicity of being (<-noun) involved and that one has to have some degree of empathic awareness on the meta scale as well as self-awareness in order to experience it.

We're all and nothing while alive too, but that's another derail. But the difference there is consciousness, obviously. One kinda needs to have that to achieve the awareness I just described above.

Unrelated to that, I realized that Richard Feynman must have been a guy who, if not fully embraced the two sides, at least came quite close to doing it. Clearly an intellectual superstar, but also someone who liked playing bongo drums and going to strip clubs.

I honestly think it's more common to find people who are close on some level, though I think it's more difficult for T or F-doms to achieve because it takes so much to develop the inferior.

I had an obvious and very legit INTP O-chem prof who underwent changes that I can only attribute to Dionysian things produced in the lab after hours. Imagine Ed Snowden passing out baked goods to the whole department and students like a madman daily (Daily), teaching students how to dance in lab, and going from scrawny nerd to ripped with pecs within a couple years.

Personally, I find it easy for me to help INTPfolk accomplish this, but very difficult to gain the trust required to reach that point.

i think youre all wrong and right at the same time

Marry me. RIGHT. NOW.

 

[Nofriends]

Okay, so then you're just oblivious then, which isn't as bad as it sounds. You're communicating on an emotional plane that you're not even aware exists. But that's PM/VM stuff. I don't want to derail.

Though I'm not talking about realization being gained through experience either. I'm saying that that type of experience is a manifestation of when things are rectified. There's a certain synchronicity of being (<-noun) involved and that one has to have some degree of empathic awareness on the meta scale as well as self-awareness in order to experience it.

We're all and nothing while alive too, but that's another derail. But the difference there is consciousness, obviously. One kinda needs to have that to achieve the awareness I just described above.

Marry me. RIGHT. NOW.

1. my insights into the world and human psyche likely exceed yours, so the prima facie is on you, and u remember from our last talk? your engram is like a person with half a cactus stuck in the ass, so u are perpetually emotional.

2. in the eyes of my inferior it does not surprise me that u find being to have a synchronicity attached to it, i have empathy, why else would i be ok with genocide? and i have subjugated myself to metacognition, so i fit the mold, but on what grounds do u necessify the foregoing? u are yet to have revealed to yourself the next plane of being

3. ofc we are, only idiots would feed the need to point at the elephant in the room, consciousness yes, but you forgo the interconnections with atmosphere and matter, ascertaining ur idiocy.

u are my little brute, i do not marry brutes.

side note:
have you guys noticed some people have a slave personality?

"it is ridiculous right?"
"i tried my best"
"we were not entirely sure, pls show clemency"
"it is so unfair though"

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

1. my insights into the world and human psyche likely exceed yours, so the prima facie is on you, and u remember from our last talk? your engram is like a person with half a cactus stuck in the ass, so u are perpetually emotional.

2. in the eyes of my inferior it does not surprise me that u find being to have a synchronicity attached to it, i have empathy, why else would i be ok with genocide? and i have subjugated myself to metacognition, so i fit the mold, but on what grounds do u necessify the foregoing? u are yet to have revealed to yourself the next plane of being

3. ofc we are, only idiots would feed the need to point at the elephant in the room, consciousness yes, but you forgo the interconnections with atmosphere and matter, ascertaining ur idiocy.

u are my little brute, i do not marry brutes.

1. Based on what? You scanned some articles on Machiavelli and some enneagram stereotype profiles? lol

2. Attached to it? It is it... "i have empathy, why else would i be ok with genocide?" lol "u are yet to have revealed to yourself the next plane of being" double lol given that I just told you that you weren't communicating on my level. I've been trying to guide you to it, via game theory and various other things along the trail of bread crumbs I've been dropping.

Spoiler

3. Only those without self-restraint would finalize an incomplete statement wherein they beget a response from the other to point out the obvious omission. Note that I said "one has to have some degree of empathic awareness on the meta scale as well as self-awareness." Meta-scale includes the "unconscious" and some degree because it's impossible to empathize with it because of its own nature.

And that wasn't directed at you, oh observant and magnificent one.

Spoiler

Artsu