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Insanity "Commune"

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The insane are the only suitable people to "help," appreciate, understand, and interact with, the insane.

The "sane" managing the insane breeds conflict. A thing cannot be transformed into its antithesis. I say this because it's not functionally a continuum (it structurally is); differences in perceptual awareness produce a very binary effect regarding knowing.

Come, my brothers and sisters! Let us pool our (physical) resources! Share in our (physical) experience! Form a new world! Achieve freedom! Something altogether different... :smoker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-Aeg_yWs9Y
filepicker%2FzqDDkLicSHO7KTI9R6bZ_kool_aid_man_.jpg
^LMFAOROFLCOPTERPOTATO :rolleyes:
 

Ex-User (9062)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY_cnXrL5-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoB_iOwxBOs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Leading_the_Blind
This vacancy is still vacant a tenant's so hard to find
A tenant who will understand about the owner going blind

The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left
The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left

His eyes were boarded-up when the last tenant got behind
And he cannot forgive said tenant for being so unkind
So unkind

The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left
The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left

This vacancy remains and prospectives are all declined
Because the owner's sight was bad enough but now he's lost his mind

The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left
The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left
Hey, don't eat my heart
You're eatin' my heart
Now stop eating my heart!

Cannibal

Hey, don't eat my stomach
You're eatin' my stomach
Now stop eating my stomach!

Cannibal

Hey, don't eat my brain
You're eatin' my brain
Now stop eating my brain!

Cannibal

Hey, don't eat my heart
You're eatin' my stomach
Now stop eating my brain!

Cannibal


time to get some fresh air in here...

Airloom.gif
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpauKNzfFlQ

Why are such things so far away and so short in duration (rhetorical)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY_cnXrL5-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoB_iOwxBOs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Leading_the_Blind
This vacancy is still vacant a tenant's so hard to find
A tenant who will understand about the owner going blind

The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left
The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left

His eyes were boarded-up when the last tenant got behind
And he cannot forgive said tenant for being so unkind
So unkind

The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left
The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left

This vacancy remains and prospectives are all declined
Because the owner's sight was bad enough but now he's lost his mind

The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left
The whole place is empty
The floor's all that's left
Hey, don't eat my heart
You're eatin' my heart
Now stop eating my heart!

Cannibal

Hey, don't eat my stomach
You're eatin' my stomach
Now stop eating my stomach!

Cannibal

Hey, don't eat my brain
You're eatin' my brain
Now stop eating my brain!

Cannibal

Hey, don't eat my heart
You're eatin' my stomach
Now stop eating my brain!

Cannibal


time to get some fresh air in here...

Airloom.gif
Blind leading the blind? "What an adventure!" said the chao! :D

Owner's lament... I could take this in both directions, depending on who's blind and who's blind to whom. And who isn't blind?

Cannibal? This thread. Especially this post in reference to jnani. *EDIT: And the most recent post.

Fresh air. What if you are the air? What if I am the air? What if we're all the dichotomous air amidst a perpetual cycle of vacuum and fulfillment? :cat:
INTP island?
Iceland's got some wide open spaces, amirite? But really, islands are too limiting and stereotypical.

Or, you know... I've got 10 acres of woods behind my house. Or maybe we congregate down south, far away from the feeezing death of annual snowfall. :p (That's right, feeezing! It's a word now; has nothing to do with the being next to the r on a QWERTY keyboard. :eek:)

In reality, though, primitivism isn't necessary.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpauKNzfFlQ

Why are such things so far away and so short in duration (rhetorical)?
Hm, i can't really sympathize with the young people.
They seem pretty shallow and only in it for their personal goals and addictions.
I don't know what to think about the whole exercise.
It seems like a holiday escapism.
Maybe some experienced persons can generate sociological knowledge out of it,
but on the surface it seems rather directionless.

Blind leading the blind? "What an adventure!" said the chao! :D
It's even more fun if you're intoxicated! :dolphin:

Owner's lament... I could take this in both directions, depending on who's blind and who's blind to whom. And who isn't blind?
It will always remain a mystery.

Cannibal? This thread. Especially this post in reference to jnani. *EDIT: And the most recent post.
How do they say nowadays?
"That escalated quickly."
sheep.gif


Fresh air. What if you are the air? What if I am the air? What if we're all the dichotomous air amidst a perpetual cycle of vacuum and fulfillment? :cat:
Oh no, i'm disintegrating! :ninjahide:

In reality, though, primitivism isn't necessary.
Not anymore and not yet.
 
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Hm, i can't really sympathize with the young people.
They seem pretty shallow and only in it for their personal goals and addictions.
I don't know what to think about the whole exercise.
It seems like a holiday escapism.
Maybe some experienced persons can generate sociological knowledge out of it,
but on the surface it seems rather directionless.
Is there anything like it on the same scale in Europe? I think it would be and seem less directionless if the duration between setup and cleanup lasted more than a week out of the year. Most of the transient youth only stay for 2-3 days.

Each gathering is an exercise in self-organization that allows some youth to cross the barrier to become oldie veterans who keep it going. There's going to be conflict and some game theory selective pressure in the mean time, but the results of this interaction are put into practice upon dispersal. There's also a dynamic within veteran development wherein secondary platforms begin to expand beyond the confines of the gathering. It's moving somewhere... towards permanence. Though that permanence may be a long time away.
It's even more fun if you're intoxicated! :dolphin:
Intoxication is an experience in itself. Don't want it competing.
It will always remain a mystery.
Maybe. :cat: If you build it, they will come.
How do they say nowadays?
"That escalated quickly."
sheep.gif
:D *inspects the sheep*
They make animatronic bait now?
*takes notes*
Not anymore and not yet.
Part time and integrated?
 

Pizzabeak

Banned
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????
2cxe39h.jpg
 
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@pizzabeak (*glances at House in the way* HOUSE!!! :beatyou: :p)
^​
<
:eek:
:eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :D :eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek: :eek:
:eek: :eek:
:eek:
 

Ex-User (9062)

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I really appreciate your input.
Speaking in freudian terms,
i tend to operate on super ego,
i have shut down both the ego and the id from interfering with my affairs with the outside world.
I recognize that this may be unhealthy,
that is why i am currently in BTH treatment.
But i can assure you that i am not schizophrenic.
I am schizotypal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-0YG0NIXNo
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Nice, Werner Herzog and Walden in one product?
What more could anyone ever possibly want? :eek:
 

nebnobla

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. / \
. / \
. /<()>\
. /_____\
. /______\
. /_______\
. /________\
./_________\

^ Plausible

. / \
. / \
. /PSYCH\
. / WARD \
. /_______\
. /________\
. /_________\
./__________\

^ More plausible

I.e. the path to enlightenment is a scam! (supposed to be pyramids)..
 

Ex-User (9062)

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. / \
. / \
. /<()>\
. /_____\
. /______\
. /_______\
. /________\
./_________\

^ Plausible

. / \
. / \
. /PSYCH\
. / WARD \
. /_______\
. /________\
. /_________\
./__________\

^ More plausible

I.e. the path to enlightenment is a scam! (supposed to be pyramids)..
[bimgx=250]http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Looks_3bcade_1485570.jpg[/bimgx]
But, hey... didn't you come here for the magic crystals?
 

nebnobla

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[bimgx=250]http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Looks_3bcade_1485570.jpg[/bimgx]
But, hey... didn't you come here for the magic crystals?

Was born with them just like you were; however, I seem to be more conscious of their awesome influence over all human perception.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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. / \
. / \
. /<()>\
. /_____\
. /______\
. /_______\
. /________\
./_________\

^ Plausible

. / \
. / \
. /PSYCH\
. / WARD \
. /_______\
. /________\
. /_________\
./__________\

^ More plausible

I.e. the path to enlightenment is a scam! (supposed to be pyramids)..
Quick google search reveals the truth:
[BIMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HY5uWkvnno8/TiQL8keM4EI/AAAAAAAAAJk/GJx-QiSo0ig/s1600/illuminati-dollar.jpg[/BIMG]
[BIMG]http://www.velveteenmind.com/.a/6a00d83451637969e2010536b24028970c-pi[/BIMG]

Thanks for this scam it was VERY enlightening :twisteddevil::kodama1::twisteddevil:
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Was born with them just like you were; however, I seem to be more conscious of their awesome influence over all human perception.

[bimgx=250]http://djbarney.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/cave_of_crystals_2.jpg[/bimgx]

Please elaborate.
 

nebnobla

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[bimgx=250]http://djbarney.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/cave_of_crystals_2.jpg[/bimgx]

Please elaborate.

From one of my other posts talking about the drug-mentality-emotional complex that you are designed by:

"All human actions are the indirect result of interactions of structures in the brain, drugs that have been predisposed from evolution, and happen to, when combined with logic (i.e. memory turned language, etc), have us avoiding stimulus that shoots "negative emotions," and yearning for the next moment that shoots us with "positive emotions.;" For example, think of things you enjoy doing like playing video games, things you do impulsively, etc, vs. things that take immense willpower to overcome (may crudely be modelled by amphipathic structure behaviour in different environments). These feelings will dictate your life almost to a predictable degree, and the chemical interactions defaulted for humans will eventually lead to the destruction of our race, as a democracy we cannot rely on a population of individuals to come up with solutions for problems (e.g. climate change, peak oil, population, etc) when each of those individuals cannot even think of them rationally cause they are too stoned on drugs that bring them down when they do; not to mention all the distracting stimuli that surrounds them and has them continuing their impulsive, one-sided trip of life.

My point in my first comment generally suggested that you may "run-your-program" with default parameters, i.e. without changing how the mental mechanics operates, or you may take control of it in a manner of profound grit, which may be appropriate if one finds themselves taking multiple SSRIs and medications to balance them out or is too depressed to do anything anyways, etc."

The second statement refers to self-medicating yourself in spite of the recommendations of authority, etc.

I think your more J than I am.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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From one of my other posts talking about the drug-mentality-emotional complex that you are designed by:

"All human actions are the indirect result of interactions of structures in the brain, drugs that have been predisposed from evolution, and happen to, when combined with logic (i.e. memory turned language, etc), have us avoiding stimulus that shoots "negative emotions," and yearning for the next moment that shoots us with "positive emotions.;" For example, think of things you enjoy doing like playing video games, things you do impulsively, etc, vs. things that take immense willpower to overcome (may crudely be modelled by amphipathic structure behaviour in different environments). These feelings will dictate your life almost to a predictable degree, and the chemical interactions defaulted for humans will eventually lead to the destruction of our race, as a democracy we cannot rely on a population of individuals to come up with solutions for problems (e.g. climate change, peak oil, population, etc) when each of those individuals cannot even think of them rationally cause they are too stoned on drugs that bring them down when they do; not to mention all the distracting stimuli that surrounds them and has them continuing their impulsive, one-sided trip of life.

My point in my first comment generally suggested that you may "run-your-program" with default parameters, i.e. without changing how the mental mechanics operates, or you may take control of it in a manner of profound grit, which may be appropriate if one finds themselves taking multiple SSRIs and medications to balance them out or is too depressed to do anything anyways, etc."

The second statement refers to self-medicating yourself in spite of the recommendations of authority, etc.

I think your more J than I am.

I don't see the relation to enlightenment, pyramids or crystals.
Am i missing something?
 

nebnobla

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I don't see the relation to enlightenment, pyramids or crystals.
Am i missing something?

The pyramid diagram is a political-cartoon thing of sorts describing that those at the top of the pyramid, i.e. the most enlightened, are not actually in control, and rather succumb to some sort of insanity upon becoming so enlightened. It is kind of like the "escalator to nowhere" from The Simpsons, except with a high incentive to get on the escalator, etc.

And the second part, I thought you were indirectly dissing me for a comment I left somewhere else recommending someone take a combination of vitamins and recreational drugs to supplement their issue, as you mentioned "magical crystals," it was the first interpretation of your statement; I apologize if I had mis-interpreted it.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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The pyramid diagram is a political-cartoon thing of sorts describing that those at the top of the pyramid, i.e. the most enlightened, are not actually in control, and rather succumb to some sort of insanity upon becoming so enlightened. It is kind of like the "escalator to nowhere" from The Simpsons, except with a high incentive to get on the escalator, etc.

And the second part, I thought you were indirectly dissing me for a comment I left somewhere else recommending someone take a combination of vitamins and recreational drugs to supplement their issue, as you mentioned "magical crystals," it was the first interpretation of your statement; I apologize if I had mis-interpreted it.

Okay, now i can sort of follow you.
And the idea for the pyramid cartoon, was it related to any particular post or to the topic as a whole?

Well, the crystal part was indeed about crystals, not vitamins or drugs.
The thing about recreational drug use is this:
the average user has no knowledge of what the substance is actually composed of.
This puts all the risk at the end-user, which is not an ideal situation.
On the other hand, i also mistrust the pharmacological conglomerates and their prescription drugs,
because long-term effects are never studied sufficiently before approval by the health administrations.
No worries, i don't "diss" people, i sometimes disrespect them.
But not in your case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64R0jBYtcGs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUIrj_2RHxk
 
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I.e. the path to enlightenment is a scam! (supposed to be pyramids)..
But wait! There's more! I'll give you two sets of enlightenment for only 3 easy payments of $14.99! (Standard shipping & handling rates apply. Sorry, no C.O.D.s).

The psych ward is certainly the antithesis of enlightenment. High school is a close second. :D What gets you admitted, on the other hand...

Personally, I've found the process to be akin to controlled schizophrenic thought.
My point in my first comment generally suggested that you may "run-your-program" with default parameters, i.e. without changing how the mental mechanics operates, or you may take control of it in a manner of profound grit, which may be appropriate if one finds themselves taking multiple SSRIs and medications to balance them out or is too depressed to do anything anyways, etc."
Your experience seems to be in tune with inferior Fe. Or rather, out of tune.

What you call profound grit is actually the opposite, trying to fill a bottomless pit. True grit is jumping in, being torn apart, and becoming the pit.
The pyramid diagram is a political-cartoon thing of sorts describing that those at the top of the pyramid, i.e. the most enlightened, are not actually in control, and rather succumb to some sort of insanity upon becoming so enlightened. It is kind of like the "escalator to nowhere" from The Simpsons, except with a high incentive to get on the escalator, etc.
This is true in my experience. Just to clarify: The pyramid is false in the sense that all are on an equal plane, but the perception of that plane varies by individual. The insanity is the creeping escalation of chaotic understanding. It's a ridiculously beautiful feeling. There's no word for it.

Why do you fear losing yourself? (Based on the mention of succumbing to insanity above, and the fear of falling asleep mentioned in your intro thread).
 

nebnobla

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Why do you fear losing yourself? (Based on the mention of succumbing to insanity above, and the fear of falling asleep mentioned in your intro thread).

Happened to my brother; I've learnt to let go of lots of my ideas every once and a while. I'll sit down and right them out and look for flaws or incorrect placement of concepts in logical hierarchy to ensure the ideas are sound, and that if I get thrown in The Ward, that I will be there based on reasons of merit and not false mental constructs of my own creation, lol. I believe the path to perfection only involves the recognition and removal of imperfections, like a sculpture; I only really keep ideas that I know for sure are consistent with the rest of my models.

In my brother's case, if you overcomplicate things and try to organize a fake social persona of a shield, to gain the validation of others, that organization will ravage one's ability to act naturally over time, cumulating in a manic episode. Thinking excessively can be useful but at the same time may separate you from reasonable reality; its important to consider your mental health as an INTP.

And I'll tell you, the people in that ward--some of them are the most composed and sensible people I've ever met, pretty much the only things that let me build respect for others. There are no Bros in The Ward, only thinkers really.

And it may sound weird for an INTP, but sometimes I like having people nearby or awake with me; when everyone sleeps the world becomes so quiet, it makes me depressed. 8 years ago I was sitting on my couch feeling cold, watching Saw for the first time. Before this day I was an idiot, I couldn't think, got bad grades, etc. During the movie, a wave of depression so noticeable hit me, it was like a head-rush; since then I have been a hyperactive thinker and couldn't sleep after watching that movie without self-medicating myself with substances, e.g. weed, alcohol, etc. It was like that event was a trigger to my INTP. Nowadays, environments that simulate that emotional state, i.e. cold room in the dead of winter, everyone sleeping, etc, tend to make me down. However, the fear of death, and the wonder of death, haunted me only for that first week after seeing the movie. I never think of death anymore, almost like I had gotten used to that fear, helping me model the universe from a more logical, and less emotionally-deduced path. Probably the best and worst thing that ever happened to me; that sick movie.
 
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Happened to my brother; I've learnt to let go of lots of my ideas every once and a while. I'll sit down and right them out and look for flaws or incorrect placement of concepts in logical hierarchy to ensure the ideas are sound, and that if I get thrown in The Ward, that I will be there based on reasons of merit and not false mental constructs of my own creation, lol. I believe the path to perfection only involves the recognition and removal of imperfections, like a sculpture; I only really keep ideas that I know for sure are consistent with the rest of my models.

In my brother's case, if you overcomplicate things and try to organize a fake social persona of a shield, to gain the validation of others, that organization will ravage one's ability to act naturally over time, cumulating in a manic episode. Thinking excessively can be useful but at the same time may separate you from reasonable reality; its important to consider your mental health as an INTP.

And I'll tell you, the people in that ward--some of them are the most composed and sensible people I've ever met, pretty much the only things that let me build respect for others. There are no Bros in The Ward, only thinkers really.

And it may sound weird for an INTP, but sometimes I like having people nearby or awake with me; when everyone sleeps the world becomes so quiet, it makes me depressed. 8 years ago I was sitting on my couch feeling cold, watching Saw for the first time. Before this day I was an idiot, I couldn't think, got bad grades, etc. During the movie, a wave of depression so noticeable hit me, it was like a head-rush; since then I have been a hyperactive thinker and couldn't sleep after watching that movie without self-medicating myself with substances, e.g. weed, alcohol, etc. It was like that event was a trigger to my INTP. Nowadays, environments that simulate that emotional state, i.e. cold room in the dead of winter, everyone sleeping, etc, tend to make me down. However, the fear of death, and the wonder of death, haunted me only for that first week after seeing the movie. I never think of death anymore, almost like I had gotten used to that fear, helping me model the universe from a more logical, and less emotionally-deduced path. Probably the best and worst thing that ever happened to me; that sick movie.
I find it interesting that your perspective is based on identifying and removing flaws as opposed to inclusion: accepting the flaws as part of the nature of the thing, and working around them, with them. The anti-sculpture is as much of a structure as the sculpture, #6. This also applies to the waking world vs the sleeping one. I also find it interesting that you see overthinking as catalyzing mania when my experience is the opposite. I attribute this to Ti-Ne vs Ne-Ti.

In my experience there are two kinds of people in the ward: overthinkers and animals; those too far engrossed in one to master and incorporate the other. These two represent the upper and lower portions of the bell curve of the human condition. Those who can and do integrate the two we affectionately call psychopaths. And I do mean affectionately. Society is obsessed with them, as I argue they should be, given their role.

Your experience with the movie and self-medicating is interesting to me in terms of cortisol and the role it may play in schizophrenia and PTSD, as well as the role of cannabis in neurogenesis in the HPA axis. Is your model less emotionally-induced, or have you incorporated that emotion into the structure itself?

My overwhelming urge is to encourage you to incorporate things that don't fit your existing models to induce changes in your models.... literally blow your mind. It's the most annoying itch imaginable to me; it demands scratching.

The movie experience was just the beginning, the first of many illuminating flashes. Quoting Kaligula: "Yes. And its just the beginning. It's like waking up and realizing there is still a maze, and then a mansion, and then an underground layer, all to navigate through." This basic idea is elucidated by Dabrowski (I don't remember if I've linked this to you previously, but it can't hurt, amirite?). If you don't find it, it will find you. The former typically has a much happier ending than the latter.
 

crippli

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The insanity is the creeping escalation of chaotic understanding. It's a ridiculously beautiful feeling. There's no word for it.
I should print this out and show it to my psychologist. And ask if she agree :D

My meeting today was odd. She(psych) was now very sweet(missed the appointment last week, overslept, told her I was sleeping). And everything that mattered was what I wanted. Maybe make a diagnose to the summer, she said. A few on the surface diagnoses was agoraphobia and dysmorphia. But these where just thoughts was looking wider, wasn't good if diagnose was inaccurate/caused it... I thought, phuu, in the clear. As those are understandable. But I tend to be rather sensitive. And I got the impression she wasn't fully honest.

In between asked what I felt about doing a stay at the institution? Opps?. In the way you ask if someone wants a cookie. And mentioned more contact with a doctor to look for medicine? I don't do medicine. Not even paracetamol.

Last year she was all into behavior, and no drugs. Today medicine seemed to be good stuff.

So what is going on? Do they think I got brain problems, or just being nice, and offer these services in case they should be to my liking.?

I feel like I'm intruding on this thread. That I do not belong. That means I got no brain problems, right?
 

nebnobla

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I find it interesting that your perspective is based on identifying and removing flaws as opposed to inclusion: accepting the flaws as part of the nature of the thing, and working around them, with them. The anti-sculpture is as much of a structure as the sculpture, #6. This also applies to the waking world vs the sleeping one. I also find it interesting that you see overthinking as catalyzing mania when my experience is the opposite. I attribute this to Ti-Ne vs Ne-Ti.

In my experience there are two kinds of people in the ward: overthinkers and animals; those too far engrossed in one to master and incorporate the other. These two represent the upper and lower portions of the bell curve of the human condition. Those who can and do integrate the two we affectionately call psychopaths. And I do mean affectionately. Society is obsessed with them, as I argue they should be, given their role.

Your experience with the movie and self-medicating is interesting to me in terms of cortisol and the role it may play in schizophrenia and PTSD, as well as the role of cannabis in neurogenesis in the HPA axis. Is your model less emotionally-induced, or have you incorporated that emotion into the structure itself?

My overwhelming urge is to encourage you to incorporate things that don't fit your existing models to induce changes in your models.... literally blow your mind. It's the most annoying itch imaginable to me; it demands scratching.

The movie experience was just the beginning, the first of many illuminating flashes. Quoting Kaligula: "Yes. And its just the beginning. It's like waking up and realizing there is still a maze, and then a mansion, and then an underground layer, all to navigate through." This basic idea is elucidated by Dabrowski (I don't remember if I've linked this to you previously, but it can't hurt, amirite?). If you don't find it, it will find you. The former typically has a much happier ending than the latter.

Well I used to integrate everything that sounded good in my mind into my grand structure; I was one of those kids that would be spelled by the sounds of words in sentences, e.g. watching "Into The Wild" and thinking that it was all good substance, that it all made sense. I've written many of notebooks of thoughts, just spontaneously writing for no reason. It was bullshit. I realized that just because something sounds legitimate does not imply it's correct. In fact, the sound of something should impose absolutely no weight on the logical merit of the statement. I also realized that these ideas I was spitting out were very much inconsistent with the patterns and trends that I've deduced from nature (that's how I validate things somethings), and thus it would justify my scepticism of an idea's logical merit. Every book I wrote was flawed; after going through them years later and identifying the flaws, I was left with little more than I had begun with, but it was the most coherent and sensible thing I had ever produced.

My truth is, that every INTP is doomed to produce huge amounts of random thoughts, about everything. This is like evolution creating a huge amount of random different designs based on spontaneous, instantaneous environmental factors; Of course, a few small percentage (much less than 1%) of those designs are in correspondence with nature, and the rest die off. This is analogous (not identical) to filtering legitimate thoughts--It is your responsibility to impose a selection on your ideas, as you are prone to come up with all sorts of ideas that seem to make sense, e.g. in a microsystem, although may not be consistent with the overall structure. If the incorrect ideas get into your concept map, and new ideas build dependencies on those ideas that may be incorrect, well--then your in big trouble. I could not imagine going back and revolutionizing foundational concepts, it's much easier to perform maintenance on the "outer-ring" concepts in the grand concept map, i.e. the ones that other ideas are not dependent on.

Your going to produce lot's of bullshit ideas in your life, there is no one on earth that has perfect thoughts every second. With INTPs, sometimes we can think an entire train of thought without analyzing it's logical merit. When I'm unsure about somethings logical merit, I look at the patterns that I swear by and stay "close to the border" of my grand concept map, i.e. my thoughts are not too farfetched or far-gone with respect to everything else I believe I know for sure. This also allows me to identify contradictions, inconsistencies, lies, etc, coming from other entities, in a second.

I am a scientist; I believe things "happen to be" in nature. I.e. I am an animal and I over-think, no polarity here; the ability to think is an object of being an animal, they are not on the same level of logical hierarchy. I've always been an animal, or rather, "a union of segregated regions with differing proportionalities of nanomachines that collectively operate a vehicle, fuelled by the cannibalization of other sorts of these unions." This is how I think of an animal--I don't think of it as just one thing, I must understand this thing on the most fundamental levels such that it is consistent with everything else, i.e. only using common factors can things be effectively compared such that legitimate logical concepts may be deduced. The first paragraph of my post here talks about this animal thing:

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=18286

And my understanding of emotions are clear--they are merely manifestations of differing proportionalities of chemicals (structures, i.e. 3D shapes..) in the brain based on stimuli picked up by senses and interpreted by the brain (a computer), etc. I believe any other interpretation may put them on a pedestal, i.e. put them too high on the order of logical hierarchy on concepts that describe the universe, which may lead to incoherent models.

And I am plagued in angst; but I feel like I am on the downhill now. For years I held an angst that was a product of my thoughts and ideas, but I feel like they are crystallizing now; it's beautiful. It's my meaning of life. When every idea is crystallized, when everything is entirely predictable and ordered, entropy will cease to exist, and time will become meaningless. I think my point of life is to stop time in this manner; mind you, it is a futile thing--our brain may not possess the processing power to do so, and even if a supercomputer figured it all out, well, then it probably means that we are in a simulation that is moderated by a similar supercomputer, which means we are in a permanent prison; a program, not a reality.
 

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I should print this out and show it to my psychologist. And ask if she agree :D

My meeting today was odd. She(psych) was now very sweet(missed the appointment last week, overslept, told her I was sleeping). And everything that mattered was what I wanted. Maybe make a diagnose to the summer, she said. A few on the surface diagnoses was agoraphobia and dysmorphia. But these where just thoughts was looking wider, wasn't good if diagnose was inaccurate/caused it... I thought, phuu, in the clear. As those are understandable. But I tend to be rather sensitive. And I got the impression she wasn't fully honest.

In between asked what I felt about doing a stay at the institution? Opps?. In the way you ask if someone wants a cookie. And mentioned more contact with a doctor to look for medicine? I don't do medicine. Not even paracetamol.

Last year she was all into behavior, and no drugs. Today medicine seemed to be good stuff.

So what is going on? Do they think I got brain problems, or just being nice, and offer these services in case they should be to my liking.?

I feel like I'm intruding on this thread. That I do not belong. That means I got no brain problems, right?

The way i see it is that your therapist might have run out of ideas to help you.
You need to consider that psychiatric drugs are given without proper methodology or even evaluation of your situation.
These drugs will have different effects on your integral brain structure and could result in mood swings, suicidal or aggressive thoughts, etc. etc.
The psychiatrist will continue to randomly administer his drug cocktails until some effect is achieved. Whether that effect is actually objectively positive or just a placebo effect, or even a delusion is irrelevant.
I would not want to take that risk.
 

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The way i see it is that your therapist might have run out of ideas to help you.
You need to consider that psychiatric drugs are given without proper methodology or even evaluation of your situation.
These drugs will have different effects on your integral brain structure and could result in mood swings, suicidal or aggressive thoughts, etc. etc.
The psychiatrist will continue to randomly administer his drug cocktails until some effect is achieved. Whether that effect is actually objectively positive or just a placebo effect, or even a delusion is irrelevant.
I would not want to take that risk.
Not a therapist, but a psychiatrist. I think it is the opposite, they have got more ideas. I did agree with a plan to adjust sleeping pattern. I'm nocturnal. Earlier(past 4 years) I've gotten an appointment every 2-3 months. Over new year she wanted a regular schedule of every week, together with a follow up person that would be more like a therapist, while she worked on the diagnoses. Said I was interesting. And that I could benefit from this. It appears they are worried that I'm becoming too disconnected from reality. And want to do something concrete to bring me back to earth. She asked about voices again. I told her I could hear my thoughts, and listen to them, that there was a lot going on in my head. But no one else but me had any access, that also me had limited access.
 

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I told her I could hear my thoughts, and listen to them, that there was a lot going on in my head. But no one else but me had any access, that also me had limited access.
Okay, but where is the objective criterion for mental illness here?
 

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Objective would be, do you hinder yourself or others in your life with these issues? Probably what would be objective in this context.
 

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Like I tell them. Real life may not be for me. She say I fulfill the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. The positive symptoms are more unclear. They believe I suffer, and that things could improve if I learned to live a more normal life. It's only in contact with other people my mind can become a bit odd. I'm still of the opinion they should do what I do, not the other way around. That would improve things for all <-delusional? Or true? who knows? It seems challenging to have it both ways.
 

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Well, what is then to be treated here?

I believe it's more complex than diagnose-or-not for mental illnesses. Mental illness is the ambient mental state, likely influenced most heavily by childhood experiences and the emotional weighting associated with each of them. The manifestation of these "illnesses" are likely best described in terms of chemical kinetics of the neuro-drugs that everyone lives by.
 

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things could improve if I learned to live a more normal life.
What exactly is that virtuous "normal life" you are talking about?
All i can see is pile of rubble and hatred.
Why would i want to adopt my mind to that MO?
 

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What exactly is that virtuous "normal life" you are talking about?
All i can see is pile of rubble and hatred.
Why would i want to adopt my mind to that MO?
Excactly. I tell them how other people experience life is different for me, that is also clear. My life is sort of like Alice in Wonderland. It's when the grown up people don't believe me, I get hurt. And I release the monsters to bite them. When I go around my mind is filled with wonders and stuff. It's the real life stuff(not that actually, but what is real for them) that fucks me up, and brings me close to psychoses.

I told her today that schizophrenic medication would effectively lobotomize me. She said they had come a long way. I need to make some effort to please them. So I'll go along with the meetings for awhile(I kinda like them, so it's okay, but not the new proposals...). Like the old jungle-word. "Sometimes the Phantom dresses like a normal person and mingle with the people"
 
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So much stuff to respond to... :storks:

@Crippli We'll take you! :D (Or uh... I'm the only one so far, so... :confused:)
 

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Is it so grave as to the point you are forced to please them? This seems terrible. I constantly find real life issues that are a bother and distract from interesting things.
 

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Is it so grave as to the point you are forced to please them? This seems terrible.
There is little here that is terrible. It's mostly good as far as I can see. Things are moving along as planned(some bumps).

I constantly find real life issues that are a bother and distract from interesting things.
I think that is what they wish to teach me. To like what one do not like. To believe, what should not be believed.
 

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It seems you don't object to playing games with people. With this attitude you will be able to find yourself in most situations, I think I described it inaccurately.
 

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I find it interesting that your perspective is based on identifying and removing flaws as opposed to inclusion: accepting the flaws as part of the nature of the thing, and working around them, with them. The anti-sculpture is as much of a structure as the sculpture, #6. This also applies to the waking world vs the sleeping one. I also find it interesting that you see overthinking as catalyzing mania when my experience is the opposite. I attribute this to Ti-Ne vs Ne-Ti.

In my experience there are two kinds of people in the ward: overthinkers and animals; those too far engrossed in one to master and incorporate the other. These two represent the upper and lower portions of the bell curve of the human condition. Those who can and do integrate the two we affectionately call psychopaths. And I do mean affectionately. Society is obsessed with them, as I argue they should be, given their role.

Your experience with the movie and self-medicating is interesting to me in terms of cortisol and the role it may play in schizophrenia and PTSD, as well as the role of cannabis in neurogenesis in the HPA axis. Is your model less emotionally-induced, or have you incorporated that emotion into the structure itself?

My overwhelming urge is to encourage you to incorporate things that don't fit your existing models to induce changes in your models.... literally blow your mind. It's the most annoying itch imaginable to me; it demands scratching.

The movie experience was just the beginning, the first of many illuminating flashes. Quoting Kaligula: "Yes. And its just the beginning. It's like waking up and realizing there is still a maze, and then a mansion, and then an underground layer, all to navigate through." This basic idea is elucidated by Dabrowski (I don't remember if I've linked this to you previously, but it can't hurt, amirite?). If you don't find it, it will find you. The former typically has a much happier ending than the latter.

I would add, that the most positively influential ability you will attain during this thing, is that of letting go; however, it is the most difficult to attain.

Also, I'd like to write a book; it would generally be based around the childhood experiences and events that culminated with my brother's madness. Myself, the narrator, would assume a second part of the story, which consists of the science of going mad, which would eventually come to realize that it is the intelligence that leads to said madness, and it is not the ward that is insane, it is the outside world. The Outside World is The Ward.
 
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@nebnobla

I assume your default urge upon reading this will be to write me off, but bear with me for just a second (and go slow if necessary). I've refined this to the best of ability, but do not hesitate to ask for clarification. And if something's redundant, tell me. A lot of what you're seeing from me/will see isn't me attempting to change you, but me searching for common ground. If it's not working out just tell me to fuck off. I take no offense. I recognize you're under no obligation to respond immediately, or at all.

I'm still pushing because 1) it's irresistible 2) I'm convinced that if we reach common ground it'll have the effect of an H-bomb in the best way possible. Blarraun actually just inadvertently identified this H-bomb conception of mine here, with Camera obscura/Pinhole projector. If we mirrors align we could illuminate something entirely unknown to both of us. (Imagine if we were all in the same room right now!?!? :eek:)

Every interaction I have with you feels like I'm looking into a mirror at my stereoisomer. This has never happened to me before. Fucking evil twin. :storks:
(^Meant in the best way possible, with a complete sense of awe. When things are beyond words I tend to use profanity :o).

Knowledge is a weight that holds you back while it's the gravity that keeps me stable as a 360° arch (a silo is an imperfect yet conceptually suitable example of such a structure, no? A fullerene is the perfect example.); Your lean towards determinism vs mine towards subjective compatibilism; Your removal of imperfections vs my inclusion of them; Your preference for the micro and mine for the macro. Manic experiences. It goes on. I am the empty space in your system and visa versa. I want to dumpster dive your mental interior. ;)

There are two divergent ways of assessing the world: determining what it is, and determining everything it is not. One is based on the assumption that everything is false; the other that everything is true. Both stop at the exact same ultimate endpoint, because the ideal system contains no false dichotomies. :phear:
My truth is, that every INTP is doomed to produce huge amounts of random thoughts, about everything. This is like evolution creating a huge amount of random different designs based on spontaneous, instantaneous environmental factors; Of course, a few small percentage (much less than 1%) of those designs are in correspondence with nature, and the rest die off. This is analogous (not identical) to filtering legitimate thoughts--It is your responsibility to impose a selection on your ideas, as you are prone to come up with all sorts of ideas that seem to make sense, e.g. in a microsystem, although may not be consistent with the overall structure. If the incorrect ideas get into your concept map, and new ideas build dependencies on those ideas that may be incorrect, well--then your in big trouble.
This is the best description of the differential use of the interaction between thinking and intuition I've ever seen. I've described my ENTP experience here, where Ti uses Ne as a go-for, forming a phallic mental probe. Without it Ti is useless, lost, and starving. You describe the same interaction but for an entirely different purpose; Ne is like an annoying housefly that won't go away!
I could not imagine going back and revolutionizing foundational concepts, it's much easier to perform maintenance on the "outer-ring" concepts in the grand concept map, i.e. the ones that other ideas are not dependent on.
For me, the foundational concepts are the outer ring concepts! This whole mess is akin to top-down vs bottom-up regulation of trophic structures! :balance:
Your going to produce lot's of bullshit ideas in your life, there is no one on earth that has perfect thoughts every second. WIth INTPs, sometimes we can think an entire train of thought without analyzing it's logical merit. When I'm unsure about somethings logical merit, I look at the patterns that I swear by and stay "close to the border" of my grand concept map, i.e. my thoughts are not too farfetched or far-gone with respect to everything else I believe I know for sure. This also allows me to identify contradictions, inconsistencies, lies, etc, coming from other entities, in a second.
Your description thus far has been amazingly useful.

Tangent: I wonder if the proposed stereoisomer relationship is the result of the accuracy of the cognitive functions used by Socionics. e.g. the Socionics INTp uses Ni instead of Ne.
I am a scientist; I believe things "happen to be" in nature. I.e. I am an animal and I over-think, no polarity here; the ability to think is an object of being an animal, they are not on the same level of logical hierarchy. I've always been an animal, or rather, "a union of segregated regions with differing proportionalities of nanomachines that collectively operate a vehicle, fuelled by the cannibalization of other sorts of these unions." This is how I think of an animal--I don't think of it as just one thing, I must understand this thing on the most fundamental levels such that it is consistent with everything else, i.e. only using common factors can things be effectively compared such that legitimate logical concepts may be deduced. The first paragraph of my post here talks about this animal thing:

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=18286
Hey, you're not the only scientist here. :beatyou: The benefit of Ecology is that it lies, on the macro-scale, at the juncture of agency and physics. I don't think of an animal as one thing either, but as part of one thing. Do you see where the boundary between our divergence lies now? Common factors and induction as well as deduction work in both directions.
And my understanding of emotions are clear--they are merely manifestations of differing proportionalities of chemicals (structures, i.e. 3D shapes..) in the brain based on stimuli picked up by senses and interpreted by the brain (a computer), etc. Any other interpretation I believe may put them on a pedestal, i.e. put them too high on the order of logical hierarchy on concepts that describe the universe, which may lead to incoherent models.
Your understanding of your emotions. :p Emotion for me is an uncontrollable driving force that must be reconciled. I'll bet the farm Fe-Si behaves in the same manner as Ne & Ti.
And I am plagued in angst; but I feel like I am on the downhill now. For years I held an angst that was a product of my thoughts and ideas, but I feel like they are crystallizing now; it's beautiful. It's my meaning of life. When every Idea is crystallized, when everything is entirely predictable and ordered, entropy will cease to exist, and time will become meaningless. I think my point of life is to stop time in this manner; mind you, it is a futile thing--our brain may not possess the processing power to do so, and even if a supercomputer figured it all out, well, then it probably means that we are in a simulation that is moderated by a similar supercomputer, which means we are in a permanent prison; a program, not a reality.
My question specific to this paragraph is: Do you believe that the downhill turn might end and reverse course in real time creative union?

My version of your goal of order and predictability is identifying alternative states of dynamic equilibrium that can be shifted into once the whole system is understood.

No lie, this is the best brain sex I've had in two years. :D The best non-autoerotic brain sex ever. :o

Tangent: Game Theory. This will sound counterintuitive, nuts, and backwards as hell, and you should ignore it, but consider that time can be converted to mass through the act of choice. You can choose to exchange mass for time with the caveat that both are inextricably linked to agency through motion; the placement of energy in physical space.
 

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Can I interrupt?:
This will sound counterintuitive, nuts, and backwards as hell, and you should ignore it, but consider that time can be converted to mass through the act of choice. You can choose to exchange mass for time with the caveat that both are inextricably linked to agency through motion; the placement of energy in physical space.
How would you specify this?
If you don't act in real world, and actions react with matter, you save time for another action. In fact, large mass slows time down around it. Large energy that can give you high motion also slows relative time. Mass is interchangeable with energy. In fact every real action you would undertake would make you spend time as you acquire mass and distribute it back. If that's how you view this it's not nuts, it looks like physics.
 
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Last year she was all into behavior, and no drugs. Today medicine seemed to be good stuff.

So what is going on? Do they think I got brain problems, or just being nice, and offer these services in case they should be to my liking.?

I feel like I'm intruding on this thread. That I do not belong. That means I got no brain problems, right?

It appears they are worried that I'm becoming too disconnected from reality. And want to do something concrete to bring me back to earth. She asked about voices again. I told her I could hear my thoughts, and listen to them, that there was a lot going on in my head. But no one else but me had any access, that also me had limited access.

She say I fulfill the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. The positive symptoms are more unclear. They believe I suffer, and that things could improve if I learned to live a more normal life. It's only in contact with other people my mind can become a bit odd. I'm still of the opinion they should do what I do, not the other way around. That would improve things for all <-delusional? Or true? who knows? It seems challenging to have it both ways.
You're not intruding if we're all nuts, right?

The apparently sudden shift towards medication is something I'd cringe at. Schizophrenia is widely (and wrongly, imho) believed to be the "worst" sort of mental illness because it disconnects one from "reality." Whereas normal individuals are, imho, disconnected from possibility. This perception of schizophrenia frequently leads to a push for medication.

The amount of time she took to evaluate you is a good thing, because one wants to be certain in such a strong diagnosis. However, so long as you remain lucid and articulate, I'd be hesitant. Perhaps a second (or third) opinion would be useful, and do your research and learn the mechanisms of action for each medication option before you take them.
I believe it's more complex than diagnose-or-not for mental illnesses. Mental illness is the ambient mental state, likely influenced most heavily by childhood experiences and the emotional weighting associated with each of them. The manifestation of these "illnesses" are likely best described in terms of chemical kinetics of the neuro-drugs that everyone lives by.
There are also larger structural components to consider, especially in the HPA axis. If cortisol causes paranoid symptoms, and negative symptoms of schizophrenia are attributed to insufficient dopamine, why does it make sense to further deprive one of dopamine and subsequently their creativity and the ability to feel pleasure?

http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-dopamine-connection-between-schizophrenia-and-creativity/0003505

Some look at excess dopamine in those experiencing positive schizophrenic symptoms coupled with reduced cortisol as indicative that these chemicals themselves are out of balance and should be pushed toward equilibrium with those of normal individuals. I look at the system and ask what the body is attempting to compensate for by altering the concentrations of these chemicals.

I would suggest that those who don't do well on antipsychotics try the opposite instead.
"Sometimes the Phantom dresses like a normal person and mingle with the people"
The wolf in sheep's clothing (also known as the shepherd) always eats for free.
Well. There are more jungle words.
"You never find the Phantom, s(he) finds you."
Can a Phantom find a Phantom? :cat:
I would add, that the most positively influential ability you will attain during this thing, is that of letting go; however, it is the most difficult to attain.

Also, I'd like to write a book; it would generally be based around the childhood experiences and events that culminated with my brother's madness. Myself, the narrator, would assume a second part of the story, which consists of the science of going mad, which would eventually come to realize that it is the intelligence that leads to said madness, and it is not the ward that is insane, it is the outside world. The Outside World is The Ward.
I embrace the idea that I do and will experience things that only very, very few others can. It's natural to me, and while it comes with flaws and weaknesses, it also comes with strengths.

I would totally read the book. :D I've considered starting a journal of my ideas and experiences myself, in case I do go over the edge. But for the record, I do not fear going over. Perhaps this is enlightenment, or some component of it.

I'm also reading The Invisible Landscape. I should be in my hands tomorrow. :D
Can I interrupt?:

How would you specify this?
If you don't act in real world, and actions react with matter, you save time for another action. In fact, large mass slows time down around it. Large energy that can give you high motion also slows relative time. Mass is interchangeable with energy. In fact every real action you would undertake would make you spend time as you acquire mass and distribute it back. If that's how you view this it's not nuts, it looks like physics.
I'm mostly saying to ignore it because I haven't worked it out yet. I'm not ready to address it and rectify the dichotomy; my mentioning of it is more of a means to gather information, searching for the missing link. It's rooted in the factoid that time is experienced subjectively, which is demonstrated by sleep, dreams, drugs, meditation, changes in mood, motion/driving, etc. What is the large mass or large energy in such a scenario? For example, cannabis produces the effect almost universally, but smoking a joint isn't anywhere close to say... the explosion of a supernova.
 

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I'm mostly saying to ignore it because I haven't worked it out yet. I'm not ready to address it and rectify the dichotomy; my mentioning of it is more of a means to gather information, searching for the missing link. It's rooted in the factoid that time is experienced subjectively, which is demonstrated by sleep, dreams, drugs, meditation, changes in mood, motion/driving, etc.
That clears it up a bit. Chemical level.
What is the large mass or large energy in such a scenario? For example, cannabis produces the effect almost universally, but smoking a joint isn't anywhere close to say... the explosion of a supernova.
It would be a difference between an over/under excitation state and over excitation that results in a collapse/release. I find it similar, comparing the tempo of signal release that makes time "feel" faster/slower and extreme gravity/energy scenario where time also becomes distorted.

add 2: You smoke and your mind gets denser as you relax, you excite and it's like blowing your thoughts, they storm across the space and start to form equilibrium by crushing and collapsing.

this could be too much of an interpretation, but who said we are sane here?
 
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