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Ni VS Ne : another attempt to comprehend what is not so comprehensible...

DIALECTIC

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Is it fair to say that Ne primary users will seek to construct a system of thought over a full lifetime, tying dots together as they go along from cause to effect (however without any finality / telos in mind at the beginning of their quest of Truth) ?

However because Ne / iNtuition is so abstract, Ne users will have problems expressing / articulating their ideas / thoughts (especially when Fe or Te are inferior...) with words and to make it "digestible" especially for sensors...

While Ni users being a lot more intuitively "mature" and therefore innately favoured by iNtuition, might perceive, very early in life, an overview of the very same system or its ideal portion, and in a deconstructing kind of way will start from the end point (becoming therefore its own cause), however because the vision of a Ni user is so abstract, Ni user will have problems materializing his system concretely...

That´s why us Ne users seem so aimless as we don't know where we are exactly going as there is always another dot to tie up it seems pushing us forward into finding yet another dot (to feed into our thirsty system / database) and so on pretty much for ever... While Ni users already foresaw the very final dot in their system, so they start from the end / goal to reach hence why they will not let it go from their sight...

So is it also fair to say that Ni indirectly feed off Ne endless findings / hard work, recognizing and deconstructing Ne erratic patterns and selecting one unique route (the ideal one according to the Ni user's own values) amonst all ? While Ne users will work their asses off finding all that is possible, Ni users will come along and choose only what is necessary !
 

Hadoblado

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I can't answer your question as I'm not particularly knowledgeable in that area but...

The difficulty of Ne users you describe should not be of such great difficulty for INTPs, as they have Ti in the dom. Thinking is good for.... well.. thoughts. When you feel lost for an endpoint, shouldn't you just be able to repeatedly escalate the level of inquiry until you find one? This may not be the natural inclination, but it's not a difficult habit to pick up. Learning/thinking is often easier when you have several converging starting points to anchor off.
 

Cherry Cola

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Being an extroverted function, arent ne intuitions more easily expressed than their ni counterparts?
I mean it's easier to excerpts than wholes, and ne lends itself to excerpts naturally whereas ni doesn't.
 

Brontosaurie

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you could switch N for T in that text and it would work as well
 

walfin

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Let's think about it another way.

Ni: srand(unsigned(time(0))); rand();
Ne: cat /dev/random
 

Architect

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So is it also fair to say that Ni indirectly feed off Ne endless findings / hard work, recognizing and deconstructing Ne erratic patterns and selecting one unique route (the ideal one according to the Ni user's own values) amonst all ? While Ne users will work their asses off finding all that is possible, Ni users will come along and choose only what is necessary !

What I've found is that the two complement each other. I'm married to a Ni dominant (INFJ) while I'm a Ne auxiliary (INTP). I see more possibilities, and combined with my habit of analysis will find answers that are more reasonable and calming. The Ni is more volatile because it can get stuck in a hole, which is the downside, but on the upside it also looks closer than I do and can find answers that I miss. It really is the classic "forest versus the trees" difference and they both are useful.

For example, we'll see some news item which she'll find upsetting. She sees all the detailed possibilities ("dive deep") of the event and views it in isolation. I'll take an expansive view ("broad and shallow") and put it in historical context. This is comforting to her as I point out that yes this is distressing, but compared to history it's to be expected and isn't as bad as it looks. However, after I've dropped it (off onto the next idea) she'll continue to consider it, and find out that there really is something new going on here and worth looking at. At this point it's easy for Ne to dismiss it (extraverted functions tend to be dismissive of introverted ones), but I've learned to (try) and pay attention. Oftentimes she comes up with ideas and analysis that I've glossed over.

I hope that illustrates the differences between the two.
 

DIALECTIC

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you could switch N for T in that text and it would work as well
And basically any other function in a way... Yes that's what basically what i described in another thread ("is Ti a lazy function") i.e Ti deconstructing / exploiting / "recycling" pretty much "effortlessly" what Te has constructed at great effort / cost...

Extroverted functions seems to be causal (from cause to effect without any real fixed goal as such), while their introverted opposites seem final / teleological (starting from the end / goal) missing the whole trial + error process in the way extroverted functions "passionately" get stuck in...?

- Ne will go from A to B...
- While Ni will detect C (the final goal Ne will not see), and from it will go to A without necessarily passing thru "experimental" B...
 

DIALECTIC

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However, after I've dropped it (off onto the next idea) she'll continue to consider it, and find out that there really is something new going on here and worth looking at. At this point it's easy for Ne to dismiss it (extraverted functions tend to be dismissive of introverted ones), but I've learned to (try) and pay attention. Oftentimes she comes up with ideas and analysis that I've glossed over.
Great analogy. Ive seen the same pattern with Ni users i know too. They seem to just "know" most of the time something i have missed... Then again, while the Ni user will obsessively focus on that single element he / she will miss other elements... So yes, as you say, Ni / Ne seem to complement each others in some way, as long as none is in the grip of his inferior function...

In an ideal / mature world, wouldnt Ne slowly elaborate "subsystems" Ni would have yet little problem deconstructing by pointing out logical flaws that can be eliminated and routes that can be neglected, therefore indirectly systemazing what are the most logical ideas into ONE coherent system, then Ne would take notice and add new routes to the system and the cycle wpuld o on ? So in other words a complementary relationship between Ne (construction) and Ni (deconstruction + amelioration...?

Ne seem to aimlessly create / synthetize subsystems while Ni effortlessly deconstruct them thru analysis and indirectly create / synthetize ONE SINGLE system out of all the subsystems produced by Ne !

Ni is therefore doing both a direct analysis AND indirect synthesis at the sam time ! Am i in the right ?



Also, what do you guys think:

- Mere ideas, i guess, could also called "subsystems"... The task of Ne would therefore be to bring similar ideas together "for the sake of it", in other words idealizing...?

- Concepts, ultra abstract clusters of "selected ideas / subsystems" could be called "systems"... The task of Ni would therefore be to create concepts aka systems for a specific end / purpose, in other words conceptualizing...?
 

DIALECTIC

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Being an extroverted function, arent ne intuitions more easily expressed than their ni counterparts?
I found that when stuck in the Ne-Fe loop of ideation-passion i can express my most abstract ideas in the most concrete / charismatic manner and win people over, however i havent had the privilege of experiencing this loop for many many weeks, plus i found that as i age / EVOLVE and isolate myself from immature people i am losing my social skills and therefore i have more and more problems communicating my ideas (however to WHOM in the real world ?!), yet i used to have no problem in my teens / 20s, granted however then my ideas about the world were totally wrong / monstruous ! :storks:
 

Architect

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Ne seem to aimlessly create / synthetize subsystems while Ni effortlessly deconstruct them thru analysis and indirectly create / synthetize ONE SINGLE system out of all the subsystems produced by Ne !

I don't see that. I'm the one creating the synthesized whole, while the Ni focuses on individual factors. Again think of the "shallow and wide" (Ne) versus the "narrow and deep" (Ni). Shallow and wide means synthesizing, while narrow and deep is a focusing on an individual element.
 

Cherry Cola

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I think you could kinda say that the trees are in the foreground for Ni, with the forrest being in the background.

Whereas with Ne the whole is in the foreground and the trees are in the background.

Ne making holistic claims on the basis of facts whereas Ni makes factual claims on the basis of an underlying completed holisticity.

Ne=Explicit Holism, implicit attention to detail (Si)

Ni=Implicit Holism, explicit attention to detail (Se)

Does that make any sense? :S
 

DIALECTIC

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I don't see that. I'm the one creating the synthesized whole, while the Ni focuses on individual factors. Again think of the "shallow and wide" (Ne) versus the "narrow and deep" (Ni). Shallow and wide means synthesizing, while narrow and deep is a focusing on an individual element.
I am not sure you understood what i meant ? I do agree with you that Ne is the synthetizer, however what i meant is Ni is analyzing / deconstructing / abstracting clusters of ideas, but by doing so it indirectly ends up with a system (the French would say "malgrés lui") without even synthetizing it in the first place... In order words, through the abstraction / "elimination" of ideas Ni perceives as useless, Ni is ending up with a system, however the problem of Ni is to be able to objectify such a system in the real world...

I picture a bit Ne as an intuitive child who keeps asking all the hard epistemological / ontological questions most people don't care about ("Awhat if ?", "Why ?", "What about ?") and speculate himself about the answers (since no one else can really answers them !)... I picture Ni as an intuitive wise man who benefits from all the countless questions / answers of the Ne child and take full advantage of them...

Ne creates the database... Ni exploits it...


Again, the same thing can be said about Ti vs Te...
I don't know enough about Se and Fi to be able to put Si and Fe in perspecive and abduct the same concept...
 

BigApplePi

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Ne - scans the horizon to take the possibilities of what's out there.

Ni - runs with a selected target with the aim to take it there.

One collects; the other selects.
One goes out there; the other originates inside.
 

crippli

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I like to think of it as Ne sit on a hill and scan the horizon. While Ni put on goggles and sticks it's head under the water.

The weather from the horizon will end up in the lake, and the lake will end up in the horizon. So the difference will mostly be what time-line one is operating on, as to what would be most relevant to the subject that is being investigated.. One can even take this further, and say Ni is mother earth, While Ne is out in space. And the above will still hold true.
 

Paladin-X

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Personally, I like this description by an ENTP on Personality Cafe:

The problem with the cognitive function descriptors that leads to a lot of confusion between the different functions is that one function will be described with traits that the other function possesses, and the other function will have those traits left out. For example, Fi is a value-based moral compass where Fe is an objective judgment of the morals external to the self. Somehow, it seems that many people get the impression that Fe is somehow less moralistic than Fi. I see the same confusion between Ne and Ni.

The truth is that both are abstract perceiving functions that are all about making connections between abstract ideas. They are both pattern-recognizing and they both deal in symbols and true meaning. The key to understanding both functions is to understand the methods by which they go about doing these things. Both are very different in these methods, and that is where their differences are. This is not something that is easy to explain to someone who does not understand the differences between the two functions in just a few sentences, so this is going to be a long post.

Ne

Ah yes, Ne. The best of the intuitive functions! Okay maybe not, but I like it a lot. The truth is that Ne is a really incredible function that is very powerful when used correctly. How Ne intuits ideas is objective. That is to say that it sees symbols, ideas, and patterns in the object at hand rather than the subject (Ni is subjective), so the Ne user sees an objective symbol. For the purposes of this post, please think of an object as anything that can be perceived, such as an object, situation, story, etc. That is not to say that Ne is always correct in its observations. The contrary can also be true. The reason behind this is that Ne will see all possible symbols and ideas for a specific object. However, the Ne user is not always conscious of all of these possibilities. What ends up happening to eliminate these possibilities is that the judging function Ne is working with at any given moment will assist Ne in eliminating certain possibilities. For example, with myself (Ne-Ti), if I saw a car parked, I could easily eliminate the possibility that it has been retrofitted with a rocket to launch it into space since there would be no visible rocket on it, and cars aren’t made that way (but it would be really cool!). That reasoning is that of Ti. If you would like a more colloquial example, ask an ENTP what it’s like when they really like a girl/guy or ask an ISFJ what it’s like when they are really worried about someone they love. Ne without a judging function is extremely irrational, and even with a judging function, that judging function needs to be well developed in order for the user to come to the correct conclusion about all of the possible ideas.

To summarize this particular point, Ne is an explosion of ideas that sees every possibility, given a specific object. Honing in on one idea is the job of whatever judging function that is working in tandem with Ne. An appropriate visual representation would be that of a supernova. What starts as a star explodes into all of its properties removed from the object itself and completely deconstructed. Ne does a similar thing. It completely deconstructs an object according to the ideas, symbols, systems, what have you associated with that object.

One thing that is heard often about Ne is that it is all about making connections. That is indeed true, but Ne needs to have a correct base to jump off of in order to make the correct connections. It is my belief that Ne on its own can make connections based on all of the possibilities it intuits, but those connections will have little relevance to the outside world. The resulting structure would look more like a giant ball of tangled Christmas lights a la Christmas Vacation rather than a structured and organized web. Knowing this, a well-developed judging function is crucial to Ne making the correct connections required for being a well-developed individual. So yes, Ne does make a ton of connections, but Ne without any other function does not do this well. Ni doesn’t either, but that’s for a different reason.

Ni

Again, as stated above, introverted intuition makes connections, sees symbols, etc. However, Ni is subjective rather than objective. Remember that we are thinking of objective and subjective in the sense that an objective function is all about the object at hand and the subjective function is all about the subject at hand. Given that, Ni without any other functions cannot intuit anything as it perceives based on past data that was gathered by the user. It must be presented with a goal, and it must have data that already exists to work. Where Ne can simply see through an object to its systems and symbols, Ni literally recreates them based on information that is known. In this way, Ni very much studies the subject at hand much like a student would study a subject for school. When studying, the professor or teacher will choose a textbook (or it is chosen for that teacher/professor by the “powers that be”), not all of the information in the textbook is relevant to the subject at hand. In that way, the student will not read through the entire book since the course may simply cover certain chapters. Ni is much the same way, and the Ni user’s past experiences and learned material (facts, feelings, etc.) can be thought of as the textbook in this situation. Ni will skim through the information in a very subconscious manner, ignoring what is irrelevant and including what is relevant. Eventually, much like a student towards the end of the course, what is to be perceived becomes more and more clear until, finally, what is being intuited is simply seen as a whole.

To use the astronomy example that was used to describe Ne, Ni is much like a nebula. A nebula, if you don’t already know, is a cloud of particulate and other forms of matter in space that slowly forms into a star system. Over time, what looks like an amorphous blob begins to collapse in on itself until a star is formed and possibly planets as well. These solar systems that are formed are there for the long term. Ni is much the same way. The systems and models that Ni forms are often very much long-term models and systems that will stand the test of time and hold up well under scrutiny. This is why Ni is often described as the long-term system building function. The more relevant information an Ni user possesses, the stronger the system that is being built. The less information an Ni user possesses, the weaker the system that is being built or the system may simply never coalesce.

To summarize Ni, where Ne is an explosion of ideas from one thing, Ni is where one idea coalesces from many ideas.

Clarifications

Ne is not a long-term system builder. This is a true statement. In fact, I believe there are only 4 types that are long-term system builders that use Ne. Those are ENTPs, INTPs, ENFPs, and INFPs. And to use the term “build” is somewhat a misnomer. Often an Ne/Ji user will stumble upon a long-term system or simply have an idea once the Ne/Ji has gathered enough information. In many ways, the long-term systems that Ne/Ji users might form can be superior to that of an Ni user, but most of the time they will not. The breadth of knowledge that an Ne user will gather brings new perspective to the systems being built, and it may present an angle that Ni would not have seen as relevant. However, this is somewhat rare. However, in terms of systems that already exist, Ne will almost always see what Ni does not.

Ni does not see the symbols and connections in ideas and objects external to the self. This is also a true statement. At least it is in terms of directly seeing symbols and connections between objects as they are directly perceived external to the self. Since Ni pulls information that is known to the user away in order to form symbols and systems, it does not perceive an object directly. It takes what is known about the object to form the symbols about that object. In many ways this is reinventing the wheel, so it cannot directly see the symbols in something external to the self. Research (other forms of perception, Je, or actual research) must be done about that object so that Ni can see the symbol.

Ni takes a long time. This is false. At least in most situations it is. Depending on the complexity of the system being intuited, Ni may instantly form a system or find something’s true meaning quickly, or it may take a long time. This is variable depending on how many moving pieces there are to Ni’s goal.

Ni is not specific. Ni is as specific as it needs to be. If information is not relevant to the system being formed, Ni ignores it. In this way, Ni users may be very general in the systems they form or they may be very specific. It really depends on Ni’s goal.

Source: http://personalitycafe.com/articles/84275-cognitive-function-ne-vs-ni.html
 

DIALECTIC

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Personally, I like this description by an ENTP on Personality Cafe:


The following part is interesting i thought:

One thing that is heard often about Ne is that it is all about making connections. That is indeed true, but Ne needs to have a correct base to jump off of in order to make the correct connections. It is my belief that Ne on its own can make connections based on all of the possibilities it intuits, but those connections will have little relevance to the outside world.

The "correct base to jump off of" is Si, the complementary function of Ne... Ne collects ideas and create the database, while Si remembers the ideas and basically IS the database ! Without a sufficiently mature / evolved Si to complement Ne, Ne gets lost in fantasy land, past mistakes aren't remembered and are redone again and again ("Fate Neurosis" / " Compulsion of repetition") and all the problems that go with it: bankruptcy, physical / mental illnesses...


"The impression they give is of being pursued by a malignant fate or possessed by some 'daemonic' power; but psychoanalysis has always taken the view that their fate is for the most part arranged by themselves and determined by early infantile influences. . . . Thus we have come across people all of whose human relationships have the same outcome: such as the benefactor who is abandoned in anger after a time by each of his protégés, however much they may otherwise differ from one another . . . or the man whose friendships all end in betrayal by his friend; . . . or again, the lover each of whose love affairs with a woman passes through the same phases and reaches the same conclusion." SIGMUND FREUD
 
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