We're not actually "designed" to be anything. We're just products of natural selection.
Correct, we are a part of an emerging design by natural selection. We have been designed to do what we do in the same way a Pelican's beak was designed to effectively scoop fish right out of the water. It is a very appropriate term, regardless of how you probably didn't like that it sounds theistic.
The thing I believe you're missing here is that the weaker functions derive from the stronger ones. Yes, having Ti stimulated is the most exciting and fulfilling thing for an INTP, but learning to appreciate the weaker functions is something that is invariably understood through the lens of Ti!
I literally just said that in my first reply to the OP of this thread. Let me just speed up your Job here. I've already read this reply all the way through, and I'll just tell you now, that I am not "missing" any part of the way you understand it. Everything you have said through out this debate I am either already aware of and is no surprise to me, or it is just plain incorrect. I am not disagreeing with you because I am not seeing what you are seeing. Trust me, I see what you are seeing, I am disagreeing because I see more than that, or because you are misinterpreting what you are seeing.
So learning to appreciate Ne/Si/Fe more, for an INTP, will stimulate his Ti by giving him new ways to think about creating a more complete internal understanding of the causal principles of the universe. He will always understand everything most naturally in terms of Ti, but why do you assume that studying Ne/Si/Fe requires him to stop using Ti?
At what point did I say "studying Ne/Si/Fe makes an INTP stop using Ti"? The point of this conversation was never how stimulating would it be for an INTP to learn about themselves, it was about the relationship dynamic between a well developed INTP and ESFJ. No matter how developed they are, these two creatures are not designed to be stimulated by each other's presents, reguardless of "what can be learned." The very language each type speaks causes the other to have to use their inferior and tertiary functions in ways that are not conducive to their hierarchy. Now admittedly it actually is important for the growth of all types to have to modulate their higher functions with their lower functions from time to time, that experience will give them also give them another form of insight into themselves. But that does not mean that the INTP and ESFJ are purely energized by each other, just because they can potentially learn from each other, that alone will not be enough, it is still going to be far more unstimulated than it is stimulating. And for an INTP, the learning experience will probably be later on in reflection of the encounter.
You are clearly not paying enough attention to how types interact if you cannot see this oh-so-obvious fact.
It doesn't! Those attitudes simply derive from Ti for the INTP and end up rounding out and giving his Ti more things to think about. It's not, "Oh I am going to shut off my Ti so that I can study Fe now"; it's, "Oh I am going to stretch my Ti so that I can understand how Fe actually makes a lot of sense in Ti terms, once I get enough experience with it to really understand it."
Correct, very good. But you are not following what I am saying if you think that is what I meant. It would be impossible to turn off functions anyway. You need to ask yourself, how does one get their Ti to stretch to their Fe?
Is it through having ESFJs hammer one with Fe-Si? Hell no, that will just surpress the process of having to start with Ti and make you more annoyed by ESFJ. It is done by allowing your Ti to reach Fe on Ti's terms, which is done by stimulating to Ti to reach these far sides of the Psyche. Our Ti has to be called out to by another creature that speaks the same Logic-based language that we do, like an ENTJ for an ideal example, but others can have the same effect.
The ESFJs do not naturally speak our language. Do you know what I mean by that? They are speaking a language that places value and emphasis on Fe, human dynamics, and that is not where an INTP places most of their value, even when well developed. They speak a language that is lobbying for us to put human dynamics first, above all. Remember, even when an ESFJ is well developed, their Ti is only a tool of their Fe, Fe always comes first. Now had the ESFJ been speaking to another creature that speaks the same values-based languages, like an ISFP, then this would be a very stimulating encounter, as the ISFP put their personal values first, and the ESFJ will want to put said ISFP's Fi at ease.
And so hanging out with well-balanced ESFJs will provide a huge amount of Ti stimulation, because it lets the INTP find more new and exciting applications for Ti, by applying it to understanding the value in attitudes and value systems which are less familiar.
You don't have to stop using Ti to start learning about the other functions...quite the opposite, in fact.
Dude... really? Huge amounts of stimulation?
You are completely removing the interaction between an ESFJ and an INTP out of your equation. You are looking at this interaction as if it is a purely cerebral endeavor, yes reflecting on what an INTP has learned about his on Si and Fe is stimulating for an INTP, interactions are not composed solely of reflection, the INTP must actually interact with the ESFJ for this to happen, and the exchange of energies that is going to occur will not be stimulating for either party. No matter how developed an INTP is, they never like having their Fe tugged on by Fe dominants, and they never really inspire the INTP to reach into their Fe and meet theirs, like the ENTJ inspires the INTP to reach into their Fe and meet their Te.
You are speaking purely hypothetical, have you ever seen a Highly developed INTP and ESFJ interact? Would you even know what one looks like if you came across one? I'm sure you think you do, but I highly doubt it.
You're being idealistic, which is cute, but it just plain does not work like how you think it does in reality. Highly developed people are not always thinking "Hey look! A person a who functions in the opposite order as I do, let's go take notes on how they see the world so I can better understand myself!"
Highly deveped people still get annoyed by having their inferior functions tugged on, you never really get over that no matter how developed you are. This is why you don't see ESFPs and INTJs teaming up to take over the world, there abilities are not synergistic, they are suppressive. But ENTPs and INTJs on the other hand are a deadly combination.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, no matter how developed you are, your functions will always exist in a hierarchy, your higher functions will be stimulating and energizing to use, and lower functions will be draining to use out of order, and even suppressive to your higher functions when used like this.
It also addresses how well-developed the SFJs you are dealing with are. If they're not well-balanced, then it can be awfully hard to have productive relationships with them.
No it is going to be awfully hard to have productive relationships with them no matter what, being really well developed will basically just be damage control in such a condition. Meaning the two could have an understanding that they are very different, and even though they work in ways that are diametrically opposed, it is still valuable and does not make them useless or evil, but the way the other works is not conducive to the natural way they prefer to work. Which is why it is not a strong or ideal match up.
This whole paragraph is predicated on the erroneous assumption that learning more Ne/Si/Fe from other types requires temporarily blocking out Ti, or ceasing to do what is naturally most stimulating to you.
It's not about turning off Ti; it's about realizing that Ne/Si/Fe actually provide incredibly fascinating and stimulating new ways to continue stretching and improving Ti itself...that is what makes SFJs so fascinating from an NTP standpoint.
You are not even interpreting my arguments correctly. Nobody said anything about "Learning to use Ne/Si/Fe" we are talking primarily about opposite types interacting. Interacting with types that function in a way that is oppositely conducive to how you function is not even close to being the same as learning how to use Ne/Si/Fe.
There is actually not very much we can learn from an SFJ about our own Fe and Si, because their Fe and Si is not being accessed in the same way ours is. an INTP must access their Fe starting with Ti then to Ne then to Si then to Fe, we don't just bust it out for free like ESFJs do. So if you want to learn more about your Fe, you are best off learning about it from another better developed INTP, because they will be accessing it with the exact same hardware as you, and can teach you actionable advice on how to reach your own. As opposed to an ESFJ who does it naturally, and would look at the situation like "Why can't you just do it? I can do it easily, why can't you?"
The functions don't exist in isolation. They are all part of one bigger process. Improving the tertiary/inferior is not suppressive of the higher functions. Part of maturation is learning to recognize that all of your functions can and should work together as one smooth and well-oiled machine instead of being threatened or annoyed by the weaker ones.
I know they don't exist in isolation, I never said they did, come on man please follow this argument and stop interpreting what is not being said. Improving your lower functions is not suppressive, this is very true, but trying to access your lower functions out of your natural hierarchy is suppressive. The way you get yourself to function as a well oiled machine is by working in your natural pathway, out of order will not do you any good, and just creates stress factors.
Bam, that is all there is to it. I have been saying this the whole time, but that should clear it up.
For an NTP, Si derives from Ne; Fe derives from Ti. It's just a matter of building enough experience and perspective to see why for yourself. Once you learn to do this, the weaker functions will no longer seem like taxing chores, but like infinitely interesting explorations of new Ti/Ne terrain.
No actually they will always be taxing chores if you are trying to use lower functions in ways that are not conducive to your natural pathway/hierarchy. Again, being well developed does not rid you have having a natural pathway, it just allows you to master it. They will be less taxing when accessed through the pathway of your dominant, but they will always be chores that we don't really like doing and will feel very draining and unnatural for us, that is just nature for you.
I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but I'll repeat myself as many times as it takes you to get it.
Ti doesn't require suppression of Fe or vice versa! People who say this invariably suck at their weaker functions. Ti and Fe are part of the same whole.
Ti *does* require suppressing Te and Fi, however, which is why they are not part of the same cognitive function hierarchy. The point here is to become comfortable with your complete and whole self and stop viewing your less pronounced attitudes as foreign or alien or in conflict with your primary ones.
Do you even think about what we are talking about? Why do you think people suck at their weaker functions in the first pace? What, did nature just screw us over for no reason, and now we have to redeem ourselves from this original sin of poor lower functions just so we can be normal? It is not a matter of experience or perspective, it is a matter of biology, it is a matter of natural law.
It is simple, Ti advocates that we be dispassionate and address things as they are, Fe advocates that we put the harmony of the group first.
Ne advocates for Possibility, and Si advocates for one concrete answer, nothing else, no possibility.
It is laughably obvious how the relationships between these functions are suppressive.
tbh it just sounds like you are having a lot of trouble with Fe development and so you've made an erroneous assumption that it's unnatural for you. It may be difficult for you, but look at INTPs in their 50s and beyond: some of them have extraordinary command of Fe. You don't learn to push yourself into painful or difficult territory; you learn why that territory is actually far more comfortable and familiar than you realize thus far.
tbh, your ego is way bigger than it deserves to be, you suck at reading into your opponents, and you just plain don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Look, I know exactly what you are saying, there is no misunderstand on my part what so ever. The problem is, there are pieces of the puzzle that are missing from your perspective, and I have been trying to tell you what those pieces are from the very start.
Fe for Fe's own sake is not something that came readily for an INTP, this is always true, they would not be INTPs if that was not true. There is a way to make Fe come more readily to an INTP, and that is a pathway that begins with their Ti. The entrance to Fe is Ti. Becoming well developed makes the journey to Fe easier on you, it makes it more smooth, but there will always be a journey to get to it. Over time, and with experience of reaching your Fe, you will build confidence, and in that sense using it will seem easier because you are doing it more confidently, with more faith in its success. You will even learn to identify with it and see it as an important part of yourself. What does not change is that:
a.) it will never be as comfortable as your higher functions
b.) Having to use it when not on the terms of your higher functions will always be a draining experience.
c.) You will be able to access it with more energy and more confidence when you accessed it in your pathway.
By the way, I do actually have well developed Fe, I would not know what I know now if that was not true. Throw me into a pile of INTPs and I'll be one of the loudest, chattiest, touchy-feelyest, and pushiest INTPs in the pile. In fact I know how I function so well, that I am aware that I am not a magical creature that has escaped the nature of having a functional hierarchy like you seem to think you have. However, I didn't develop my Fe because I have SFJs around me storming me with their own Fe. I did it because I have made rituals out of using the energy momentum generated by my Ti to reach into the far sides of my psyche. and I did it over and over, getting better at it each time.
Have you ever developed a truly deep, close relationship with a well-balanced SFJ?
Didn't think so. If you had you wouldn't still be calling them boring and unstimulating--they're anything but. You just need to learn why their strengths can actually be understood and applied in terms of Ti, and can teach you a lot without requiring you to shift your focus too far away from that which is most comfortable to you.
You've developed closer relationships with NTJs than with SFJs because they share some shallow surface characteristics with you--i.e., a more impersonal/logical focus, more interest in analysis and abstract theory, etc. etc. You are noting surface similarities but missing the deeper picture in terms of underlying motivations, and thus you still don't understand how to relate to SFJs. You think you're relating deeply to NTJs, but you're not--you just get along better with them because:
A) They have similar surface interests a lot of the time, and
B) You don't understand SFJs or your weaker functions enough to recognize why they are, on a deep level, far more similar to you than NTJs will ever be.
You don't really seem to realize how deeply the way they view these topics differs from the fundamental axioms of your outlook. "We both like math and card games" is not a deep relationship; it's just a shallow surface similarity.
This is exactly why MBTI is awful--it focuses on surface similarities and actions instead of underlying psychological needs and motivations, and you've made exactly the same mistake.
I have a couple close SFJ friends, there is an ISFJ friend that I have had for years. But even though we actually do things together I would not say that our relationship is deep, and it is not because we are both fucked up and immature people. It is because we both have an underlying motivation, an underlying identity and a story that is dictated by our personality types. My very core is just not stimulated with what she produces, in the same way that she is just not very stimulated by what I produce. We could potentially force ourselves to act in ways that are out of our comfort zones for the sake of making the other's experience more stimulating, but why should we? Why should we force ourselves to invest our energy in another person who is not going to give it back to us? Why should we invest knowing we will not get a return on our investment?
That, is why I have way more intuitive friends then sensor friends. In fact, that is why EVERYONE tends to be attracted to those who are closer to their own personality types. It is all energy. When I invest my energy into my intuitive friends, I know that they are going to appreciate it, understand it, and give energy back to me. They will do it by validating my thoughts, applying what I saying, or even critiquing my materials in a way that I find interesting and can grow from. Either way, it is energy well spent.
Furthermore, my soul resides in my Ti, the material that comes from my dominant function are the materials that are closest to my identity. So when I send that material to other people, I just sent them the essence of my existence, and that is the kind of thing I want received well, because if you reject the materials of my Ti, you just rejected me.
I am not different than other humans, all that is different is that I start with Ti, for others it will be different functions, but the structure of how the work is the same. That energy relationship is always present. And that is why you don't see ENFJs and ISTPs, etc, cohorting together, it is not because they are shallow and poorly developed, it is because they get the best returns on their energy investments from other people that can appreciate and understand the materials that they naturally produce, in other words types that speak the same "languages" as they do.
It is time to open your eyes and get the fuck over yourself, you are overlooking the reality that is right in front of you while you blindly bask in your faux enlightenment. You can't even see what you are fighting me on, I am not an MBTIer SW, I promise you I am not using their principles or perspectives, and I am certainly not making the mistakes you think I am making. Why would personality types be drawn to do certain things and be around certain people, if our true nature was supposed to be to be around people who share poor energy relationships be? How would we even become well developed in the first place, if we start diametrically opposed to the people who are supposed to help us grow? By your logic, we need to have an understanding of JCE just to develop ourselves, because without it pretty much everyone would be stuck not understanding the people who are supposed to help them grow. You have to ask yourself, why would nature make such a retarded design? If what you are saying is true, then
prolonged adaptation stress syndrome should not exist, because that would mean there are no repercussions to trying to access your functions out of your hierarchical order.
If there is one thing you should take from how natural law works, it is that nothing good comes from resisting nature. We don't have a sex drive just so we can ignore it and pretend that it is the devil telling us to do evil things. We have one so we will be driven to reproduce and carry on the species. In that same sense, we are drawn to certain things and certain people, not because we are immature and don't understand ourselves, but because that is ol' mother nature telling us that we need move to a certain rhythm (which is dictated by our personality type) if we want to be charged with the energy to access our lower functions. We do not flock to the people that we have better energy relationships with because we are escaping our lower functions, we are doing it because these are the people that help us reach these functions.
This is all horribly inaccurate. I suggest rereading Psychological Types if you don't think anyone gives a shit where logic derives from.
That is the crux of the difference between Te and Ti. If you think NTJs are conceptualizing logic and structure the same way you are, you're sorely mistaken. They just happen to have similar surface interests--but that doesn't really mean a lot in the grand scheme of things.
If you had a deeper understanding of Si/Fe, you'd be able to find a lot more common interests with SFJs, and you'd find that they can teach you a tremendous amount about your areas of interest and vice versa. You probably just don't really ever give them an opportunity to do this because it requires stretching too far out of what you assume is your natural cognitive territory.
With a little shift in perspective, you'll begin to see that your natural cognitive territory extends in a lot of directions you haven't yet given much consideration.
LOL
Rereading Psychological types will not help you understand the reality of the personality types for the same reason that reading different translations of the bible will not help you learn evolution. What I speak of is a departure from the old ideas, such as your own.
I didn't say the TJs conceptualize logic and structure in the same was as Ti users, but that is irrelevant anyway. Again, nobody gives a shit how you are conceptualizing logic, all that matters to a thinker is: Is your logic strong? Does it work? Is it true?
If you can satisfy those things then any thinker will like your logic.
Logic is logic is fucking logic, all it has to do is make sense and you'll be speaking the language of Te and Ti.
Excuse me for a moment.
ATTENTION EVERY xNTJ TYPE ON THIS FORUM:
Has my mysterious Ti ways ever been an issue for you? Have I ever been hard to follow because I am cognitively reaching my conclusions in a way that is different from you? Has anything other than me making sense ever really mattered to our logic?
Yeah... I figured as much.
Okay I'm back, sorry about that, where were we?
Oh boy, the old "Ti and Te are two sides of the same coin" argument. Yeah this one is going around type forums and literature like the plague, but it couldn't be more wrong. What you need to figure out is that Ti and Fe are two sides of the same coin, two parts of the same integral whole. There are two judgment philosophies: TiFe and FiTe. Ti and Te are so radically different in so many fundamental ways that you haven't even begun to recognize yet, and here you assume they are similar simply because you have NTJ friends and no SFJ friends.
Surface similarities and common interests =/= true cognitive similarity. You just aren't comfortable enough with SiFe yet to recognize how much SFJs have to offer you, and you've never developed deep enough relationships with your NTJ buddies to see how vastly they really differ from you.
Goals and parameters can be set and defined through Fe just as well as Te. In fact, balanced Fe goals and parameters appeal much more highly to Ti than do Te goals and parameters, because Fe and Ti are ultimately the same thing.
TiFe derives logic from the self, and ethics from the collective.
FiTe derives ethics from the self, and logic from the collective.
You mean to tell me that good, enlightening, legitimate ideas, accurate representations of natural law principles are emerging on your forums, and you are stomping them out?
You have committed the most heinous crime against the Ti dom code, you are now my sworn enemy. Blood will be shed this morrow. Its damn shame, we could have been best friends.
Oh man, I am soooo tempted to make fun of you and call you immature because you are clearly too unenlightened to tolerate Te and see Te and Ti as two sides of the same coin, just to be a dick.
You know, there is really not much else I can say other than, "You're blind." It's a bit ad hominem, which is usually not my style, but its true. Not only did I just give you a beautiful explanation, which did not even register, you are posting on a forum filled with the exchange of Ti and Te, Ni and Ne, and you know what? We fucking love it. Now tell me, why is there not a SINGLE xSFJ on this forum?
Because they get nothing out of it! There is nothing here that is relevant to them, it is too cold and too weird for their tastes. Now if you were right, then this forum would be full of INTPs, ENTPs, ISFJs, and ESFJ, it would just be one big Ti, Ne, Si, Fe party, but the relationships between type don't work like that. Te will respect Ti before it respects Fi, and Ti will respect Te before it considers Fe. It is not because we are too undeveloped to leave our comfort zone, it is comfort zone is so much more validating and energizing. If you are looking for water, and you can either drink from the trickle dripping from the air conditioner, or you can choose the faucet, why the fuck would you choose the trickle?
That is why the intuitives are on this forum, and the sensors are together doing what ever they do, because humans prefer water from the tap.
It is literally playing out right in front of you, the phenomenon is right here on this forum, and you are suppressing it because it does not match up with your paradigm. Shame SW, shame on you.
lol no, not really. ENTJs don't value Ti on a fundamental level. They can learn to get along with Ti types through communication skills, but ultimately the internal Ji compass they're looking at for subjective value judgments is based squarely on Fi, not Ti. They derive ethics subjectively and logic objectively: you do the opposite.
Completely irrelevant!
Why does that matter? That is not a rhetorical question, explain to me right now why Logic cannot understand other logic if it does not share the same attitude, because that does not make sense at all. Since when has logic ever worked that way? You are acting like there is a war between Te and Ti using philosophers, where? Were the fuck is this epic battle taking place?
Tell me where it is, so I can show you why you are not looking at it correctly.
ENTJs don't apply Ti because it contradicts their basic worldview. You have some reading to do, my friend.
No it doesn't! In what way does it contradict their worldview?
An ENTJ's worldview is built around their Te, systems composed of logical principles that dynamically ebb and flow in the external environment. There is another function that understands the world in principles, Ti. Ti resonates with what is strong or weak, and can diagnostically pick our principles that work and that don't work for them. Here is an interesting factoid, what does not work for our Ti, very often does not work for other Ti's, and if it does not work for their's then it could be because there is a systemic principle that is causing this to occur. Te's ears just perked up, a what now? A systemic principle that cause improve my work flows? That's right Te!
And this is how Ti reaches out to Te, Ti can Improve Te, and Te can speak the right logical language to Ti to get it to move to even stronger positions. Fe does not have that effect on Ti.
Te: "Hey, you should do this my way, because it is faster, more cost effective, and smells better."
Ti: "Oh shit, that is actually a good idea. *starts doing it Te's way*"
As opposed to:
Fe: "Hey Ti you should do this my way, because if you don't you are a bad person."
Ti: "... What?"
ENTJs crush the models of other ENTJs who didn't apply Fi, not Ti. Te and Fi balance each other out as the user gradually recognizes that they are part of the same whole process.
Fi does make them stronger too, but Ti makes them air tight, which will make the ENTJ's Fi feel all the stronger about it.
Te tells them to derive logic from an externalized, collective, objective standard. "What do the experts say is logical and efficient? What source outside of me should I place my trust in to tell me what is logical?"
This combines with Fi to help them derive ethics from an internal, subjective standard. "What do my personal values, feelings and ethics tell me is inherently moral or immoral, independently of any external views or ideas?"
For TiFe types, though, this process is inverted: Ti asks, "What does my internal understanding of natural reasoning tell me is inherently logical and consistent, independent of what any external influence says?"
And Fe chimes in: "What do the people I consider myself emotionally connected to say about what is ethical and moral? What external standard apart from myself should I trust to help me decide what constitutes objectively ethical behavior?"
Ah okay, here is another flaw in your understanding: you have misconceptions as to what Te actually is.
Specifically the extroverted part, which you are taking too literally. And now because you need it (but mainly to piss you off), I am going to explain what Te is:
There are a couple words or metaphors that I like to use to explain Te, I'll be using both. "The game" and "The system"
A game has two underlying principles behind it, rules, and winning. Both concepts must exist for it to be considered a game. A game needs a set of rules to define how it is done, and what it takes to win. And without a way to win, well then it is not really a game at all, now is it? So with these two principles then you get two more principles: Playing the game well and playing the game poorly.
Now I explain that to you so I can have an easier time explaining the nature of Te and also Fe because it works in an extremely similar fashion. Both Te and Fe see the world as a dynamic environment, a game if you will, what separates how these functions work is also how they will define what it means to play the game well and not so well.
Te sees the world in terms of "The system." Everything is a part of a grand system, this system is a massive map of dynamic logical principles, rules that define how things work in the world. It is possible to play the system well, and doing so yields success in various forms, getting a job, writing a term paper, building a skyscraper, starting and running a business, etc. Failing to play the system well is due to incompetence, and will yield failure in various forums, losing your job, crashing your car, etc.
While the system is an objective entity, outside of the self, they are still a part of the system, and they understand the world based on the system's rules of logic. For example a Te user would actually not put their faith in an expert's way of doing something, if that way of doing something didn't work well, as I said, it is not that literal. If they can discover another way of playing the game that yield better results, they will take it, but they will not take it just because it is external to them. In that same reguard, if a Ti user has developed a style of accomplishing a task that began as something that was just meant to work for them, and a Te user sees that this procedure is a strong rock solid procedure, they will adopt it as their own, because what matters to a Te user is what is strong, what wins. This is how other people's Ti gets integrated into Te designed systems, because it is all a part of the same system.
It's like military training. When you go through basic training, you are taught all kinds of procedures that are supposed to be strong, and what will be successful in war. But when the soldiers actually go into the battlefield, they find that what they learned often does not apply very will in combat. So the Ti users start adapting their styles to what actually does work well for them, coming up with even better procedures. Many of these soldiers report back and notify officers of the situational principles that were happening on the battlefield that make the procedures that they are training the soldiers in ineffective, and that they would be more effective if they applied the Ti that the soldiers picked up through experience.
Now according to you, at this point the officers who are developing weapons or training soldiers would look at this Ti and say: "Wait a minute! Did you derive this logic subjectively? You did!? GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY OFFICE SOLDIER!"
But in the real world, nobody gives a shit how you derive your logic, and commanders want to win wars, so they will jump at the chance to listen and apply Ti if it will help their Te win.
I have worked for Te dom bosses before, and they fucking adored me. You know why? Because they would send me out with an objective, and I would report back with Ti calibrated new, faster, and more productive ways to accomplished their tasks. In their eyes, my Ti was the shizznit, because it helped them with the game. This is ultimately how Te and Ti are both a part of a bigger process and they converge with the universal and personal, because what is personal and ultimately help the universal, and the same goes for the other way around. Your friends back on the forum can see this, and it is pretty obvious too, maybe you should start listening?
ENTJs don't have Ti; any introverted judgment you see coming from them is based squarely in Fi. They don't do anything with Fe; any extroverted judgment you see coming from them is based squarely on Te.
You may be trying to teach them some sort of TiFe ideals, but they're still going to take those ideas, spin them around in Fi and then end up applying them externally in a Te way. You don't seem to understand the basic philosophical differences in worldviews between TeFi and FeTi--but you really should read up on it if you want to complete your understanding of this topic.
Again I will ask, have you read Psychological Types?
Again, completely irrelevant. It does not matter that they are Fi users, a Te dom identifies primarily with their Te, and there Fi is an Fi that exists in subordination to their Te. As long as they speak the language of Te, which is a language of systemic and logical principles, their presence will be understood and conducive to the language of an INTP's Ti, which is looking for directness and logical principles.
Perhaps you should take your eyes off the books and onto the real world around you? Because you are clearly missing it. This idea that Te and Ti have different worldviews (worldviews are not even defined by Te and Ti per se) is complete nonsense, and you would see that too if you were not so fucking blind.
Not nearly as amazing an explosion as INTP+ESFJ, assuming both are mature and well-balanced enough to handle each other.
You've mistaken surface similarities and common interests for true cognitive identification, which I'm afraid is a very grave mistake, indeed.
You are speaking purely out of hypothetical theory, really really flawed theory to boot. There is literally no examples of strong energizing relationships of INTP+ESFJ that you can point to, because in reality, it is just not a good dynamic at all. And you are going to say that they have to be well-balanced and mature for it to work, but that is just complete bullshit because you are essentially saying that they are so outside of what is energizing for them that they have to learn to tolerate each other by maturing themselves. Why? Why should we have to do something that we don't get any stimulating from?
And now you are going to say that we are stimulated by it, and I will respond with, no you fucking don't, go experience life and find out for yourself.
I'm not saying you should stop being friends with your ENTJ buddies--there's definitely a lot of value in having ENTJ friends. But you've convinced yourself they really understand/identify with/complete you, when in reality their private philosophical views contradict yours in a number of ways that would likely make you very uncomfortable if they shared all of them with you.
Were you scorned by an ENTJ in the past? What is with you and thinking they are these diabolical creatures that hate Ti just because it does not work precisely like Te, but they don't actually know that because they don't understand JCE. I'm sorry, but this is just complete nonsense, and reality refutes your claims.
lol, this happens because:
A) Neither of you is confident or competent enough in your weaker functions to appreciate the types that are actually more similar to you than each other, and
B) You have similar surface interests and you think this constitutes a deep level of cognitive similarity, but it doesn't.
Just like the ENTJ, if an INTJ sees that he can garner useful applications toward his goals from interacting with you, then he will. But he won't like or agree with the ideas your worldview is founded upon, and if you think he does then he's done a great job of simply avoiding issues which may cause disagreement with you.
After all, causing disagreement with you might get in the way of the external goals he's identified as the primary reason for interacting with you. And Te certainly wouldn't want that, now would it?
I wish I could go to your home right now, and just start tugging on your Si, just to show you that you are not some magical being that has transcended the shackles of personality type. Honestly, the fuck over yourself, because this "Mwahahaha I'm enlightened and mature and you're not just because you disagree with me!!" is starting to get old.
If you can't see that this interaction is a mutual exchange of energy, both of us are getting something out of it, we would not be friends if that was not true, then you are hopeless, and I am now getting bored of you.
rofl @ INTP telling ENTP he relies too much on theory and too little on real experience.
Who do you think you're talking to? I'm an Ne dominant; we predicate our entire lives on generating as many real experiences as possible so that we can derive the most complete understanding through the experience itself.
Then you have failed as an Extroverted perceiver, because you are not doing what you are supposed to be doing. You have allowed your understanding of the theory to blind you from the dynamics that are playing out right in front of you.
It seems apparent to me from this discussion that my real experience with typological differences (including my several very robust and substantial relationships with SFJs in my life) dwarfs yours.
Oh does it now? Look Kiddo, I have not even dropped a 1/100 of my knowledge of you, you'd see more if I didn't think you were a lost cause. I would not trust your experience or ability to type your way out of a paper bag for that matter if you were the last person on the planet. You talk big, but you have shown me that you don't know shit.
I also have some pretty good relationships with NTJs, but they don't really compare to the depth of my identification with the well-balanced SFJs because ultimately, our worldviews are simply based on completely different axioms.
Have you now? Well that is if you can even spot an SFJ in the first place, and I don't think you can.
I play cards games and computer games with NTJs too, and I've worked on creative projects with them as well. They can certainly be productive in that regard, but it sounds to me as if you simply have never developed a deep enough relationship with any of them (or with any SFJs) to know the difference between "we have some common interests and surface similarities" and "our cognitive hierarchies actually operate on fundamentally similar premises."
I have had very deep and even romantic relationships with NTJs actually. It has nothing to do with surface similarities, it has to do with energy, and the energy exchange is just better with them than with the SFJs.
Don't tell me about "real experience"--ENTPs are the ones out there having the real experiences that INTPs spend their whole days theorizing about in their basements. I've typed more people than you've probably met in your entire life.
Typed people incorrectly, rather.
Hehe, wow this is starting to get so immature that I feel a little dirty reading it. Hey way to go maturing yourself by the way.
Come back and talk to me when you've developed a deeply personal relationship with an SFJ, and maybe I'll take your claims a little more seriously. Until then I'm forced to assume you simply lack the experience to know what you're talking about.
It's hysterical to me that an INTP is telling an ENTP to let go of the pure theory and focus on the external realities around him. We're the ones who teach you that. Where do you think I derived the majority of my type theories? It certainly wasn't from reading books--it was from meeting and interacting with a great many different people in a great many different contexts.
Nothing substitutes for real experience--you just don't have enough of it yet to see why mine trumps yours.
No, you don't get most of your understanding from the real world. You know why I know that? Because if you did, you would not be telling me to go read more, because out there it does not work like how they say it does in the books. You can read every book on JCE and MBTI in the world, and not only would just end up reading the same thing over and over, you would not be getting any closer to an actual understanding of how the phenomenon actually works. You would just be reminded of the old ideas.
Jung said it best himself:
Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart throught the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul. -- Carl Jung
It is very interesting how you keep trying to read me, you are really bad at it, but it has been ongoing through out this conversation. With every reply you make, you keep making these Fe assumptions about my personal life. That is not the kind of thing an ENTP would be very comfortable with taking guesses about, especially in the context of "I'm right because you have no friends and are too immature to have deep relationships." That is a very Fe card to play. A very Fe preference card to play, rather. Hmmm, anyway, moving on.
I didn't really even claim that Jung was an authority. It's my personal opinion in my extensive experience with knowing, typing and interacting with hundreds of people of all different types that Fe and Ti (as well as TeFi, NeSi and SeNi) are all two sides of the same pair.
I would suggest considering that most ENTPs probably have more direct experiential basis from which to derive this sort of typological idea than you do--especially ENTPs as experienced in typology as I am.
Well, then it looks like you are the exception to that rule, yay for being unique!
You may not know me, but I'm kind of a big deal in online typology circles. I've definitely read all of the source material on this topic, but that's by no means the primary method by which I derive typological ideas. This is coming straight from my personal experiences, and I've had enough relationships with enough different people (including several extremely deep, interesting, fascinating and challenging relationships with SFJs) to know that you're way off base in most of your claims here.
So there.
ROFL. Did you seriously just say that? "I'm kind of a big deal?" really? Is it cold up there on your high horse?
Dude I just said Jung was wrong, why would you think using yourself as an authority would move me?
I would jump at the chance to debate authorities much greater than you, I am certain not going to flinch just because some guy thinks he is hot shit because he has read some books and has a reputation online. Your theory is painting your experience, it no longer matters how much experience you have if you can't even interpret it correctly. I don't know how old you are, so hey maybe you are right about having more experience, but that doesn't matter if you fail to make something out of that experience that is successful. The way I see it is if you have still not even discovered the energy relationships, of the that are occurring between types, which is the most fundamental manifestation of the phenomenon, then you are still at square one, old man. But that is okay, you'll see it eventually. Not by me of course, I have neither the patience nor the energy, nor the motivation to deal with people like you.
