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The Return, Pre-Postmodernist Art

Cognisant

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I'm no expert on this myself but a prevailing notion I've been exposed to by more artistic intellectuals is that the world of art went wrong with postmodernism, that art as a thing by itself independent of context or external influence is an abomination.

What do you think?
 
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at root, it went wrong as soon as "abstractionism" was allowed to approach equivalence with art.

modernism is merely the inevitable rotten fruit of such dysgenic thinking.

post modernism is merely one of the branches a little lower down.

do some research into what picasso himself said about his motivations to create the "art" that he did

bottom line: there are those zombies who are intent on masking degeneration/ devolution with phrases such as "progressivism" when in effect the reality is that everything which results is the opposite of physicial/ cultural advancement of human being. Personally, I'd rather see human beings evolve up, up and away from the basic physical/ mental functions of the average animal.

Up until about 100 years ago, we had been evolving quite nicely too.

LiveLeak.com - This Elephant Paints Pictures Like a True Artist

^ Funny enough, even an elephant can demonstrate more humanity (as the painting demonstrates) than most modern humans.
 

Puffy

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Well, postmodernism is more than just an art-movement, like modernism was what lots of thinkers and philosophers in the humanities thought was the kind of zeitgeist/ paradigm/ culture of the period that preceded it, postmodernism is a branch term summarising lots of interrelated developments starting from around the 1960s.

This link Kuu left in an other thread, summarising the thoughts of some core postmodern thinkers is useful: http://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/postmodernism/modules/baudrillardpostmodernity.html

One could say that postmodernity is not an invention of artists, rather their art is a reaction to, and means to trying to understand, postmodern times. Either way, it's a really shaky term, there isn't an accepted definition, it's a bit loaded. Some don't even think we're in postmodernity anymore.

Personally, some artists who have been labelled postmodern -- William S. Burroughs, John Cage, Alan Moore -- are among my favourites. Yet I find most postmodern architecture ugly and dysfunctional, generally. Some postmodern philosophy I like -- Barthes, Baudrillard -- some I loathe with a passion -- here's looking at you, Derrida, you bastard. :evil:

In general I wouldn't rate artists and thinkers by the movements they're placed in, very often it's not their expressed wish but the result of someone else who puts them there for categorisation's sake. Go by the text.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Well, postmodernism is more than just an art-movement, like modernism was what lots of thinkers and philosophers in the humanities thought was the kind of zeitgeist/ paradigm/ culture of the period that preceded it, postmodernism is a branch term summarising lots of interrelated developments starting from around the 1960s.

This link Kuu left in an other thread, summarising the thoughts of some core postmodern thinkers is useful: http://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/postmodernism/modules/baudrillardpostmodernity.html

One could say that postmodernity is not an invention of artists, rather their art is a reaction to, and means to trying to understand, postmodern times. Either way, it's a really shaky term, there isn't an accepted definition, it's a bit loaded. Some don't even think we're in postmodernity anymore.

Personally, some artists who have been labelled postmodern -- William S. Burroughs, John Cage, Alan Moore -- are among my favourites. Yet I find most postmodern architecture ugly and dysfunctional, generally. Some postmodern philosophy I like -- Barthes, Baudrillard -- some I loathe with a passion -- here's looking at you, Derrida, you bastard. :evil:

In general I wouldn't rate artists and thinkers by the movements they're placed in, very often it's not their expressed wish but the result of someone else who puts them there for categorisation's sake. Go by the text.

Nice, i feel the same about Burroughs, Cage and Baudrillard.
My arch enemies are Ginsberg, Lacan, Bukowski and, like yours, Derrida.
I like Deleuze quite a bit.

But, when you think about Burroughs cut-up technique,
that pretty much sums up the "creative process" of about 90% of post-modernist artists and intellectuals.
It opened the door for all kinds of hacks.

It also helps to educate oneself on what happened at the Macy Conferences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macy_conferences

What illustrates the broader decisions made there is best depicted in
"Towers open fire":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjB--bgcBa0

A bit of "agenda revelation"... if you like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZlnfhIfIbk

Oh, on that elephant:
I think it's a trick. Look at the handler.
 
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Duxwing

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Some would even say that we are in the Post-Post-Modernist phase, upon which and others history can cast humorous light. Around 1700, people began to question their traditions in the Enlightenment and instead believe Rationalism or Empiricism. Then they questioned the Enlightenment's focus on reason and evidence and therefore substituted emotion during the Romantic Era. Then Romanticism was questioned with Expressionism, which was questioned by Post-Expressionism, which was questioned with Modernism, which was questioned with Post-Modernism, which is questioned by Post-Post-Modernism! History seems to repeat itself.

Recently literature seems to have become a playground for people who would have become philosophers had their intuitions not hopelessly and hideously warped their minds. By circular reasoning, by tautology, by equivocation--by the might of gods!--they shoehorn texts into 'frameworks' or 'perspectives' to find 'deeper meaning'. Worse, however much frustration this movement causes me, these lunatics hunt two or three layers of abstraction down in texts proselytize or propagandize, e.g., Animal Farm and miss allegories that are as clear as caricature.

For an example of this hyper-analysis consider Born on the Fourth of July, wherein a boy learns religion and nationalism from his culture and mother, who sexually represses and hits him, and then fights in the Vietnam War, during which he loses his penis and control of his lower body. He returns with PTSD that his experiences had caused and self medicates with alcohol: after a night of drinking he returns, furious at his country and mother. He screams that he will never have sex or children or even masturbate, that his culture "made [him] go" to Vietnam, and that he no longer believes in a God. She weeps with humiliation, first hitting him over the head and later telling him that he can't say "penis" in their house. A critic asked why he was so angry.

Erm... he lost his penis, control of his lower body, faith in his God and country; regrets having gone to war, and must now live with and love a woman who is the sum of everything that he despises and greatly encouraged his going to war (wherein he accidentally killed innocent civilians and one of his comrades). I would guess that he can hardly handle the trauma, hatred, stress, and cognitive dissonance and therefore lashes out in anger. Allegorically, he could represent the naivete of the young, and she could represent the Old Regime and culture; thus interpreted, the movie is a leftist masterpiece.

Whereas she shoehorned our lesson on identity and gender onto (and thereby trivialized) the work by claiming that he no longer knows what is expected of him and cannot see whether he is an adult, child, male, or female due to the loss of his genitals. This claim lacks evidence: he never complains about expectations or even mentions his gender or age identity. She tried to integrate post-modernism by some bizarre sleight of hand regarding lighting, basic inferences about mirrors enabling someone to 'see themselves,' and derived categorical critical imperatives from a single example.

I can't go on. I hate post-modernism and its hideous children. Works of fiction are not essays: they are products of the imagination to be enjoyed and savored.

-Duxwing
 

Cherry Cola

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Aye, nice post, describes the pattern I meant for Tango to be an allegory of :O
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Some would even say that we are in the Post-Post-Modernist phase. History can shed some humorous light on these phases. Around 1700, people began to question their traditions in the Enlightenment and instead believe Rationalism or Empiricism. Then they questioned the Enlightenment's focus on reason and evidence and therefore substituted emotion during the Romantic Era. Then Romanticism was questioned with Expressionism, which was questioned by Post-Expressionism, which was questioned with Modernism, which was questioned with Post-Modernism, which is questioned by Post-Post-Modernism! History seems to repeat itself.

Recently literature seems to have become a playground for people who would have become philosophers had their intuitions not hopelessly and hideously warped their minds. By circular reasoning, by tautology, by equivocation--by the might of gods!--they shoehorn texts into 'frameworks' or 'perspectives' to find 'deeper meaning'. Worse, however much frustration this movement causes me, I know that some texts proselytize or propagandize, e.g., Animal Farm, and then these lunatics hunt two or three layers of abstraction down to find allegories that are as clear as caricature.

For an example of this hyper-analysis consider Born on the Fourth of July, wherein a boy learns religion and nationalism from his culture and mother, who sexually represses and hits him, and then fights in the Vietnam War, during which he loses his penis and control of his lower body. He returns with PTSD that his experiences had caused and self medicates with alcohol: after a night of drinking he returns, furious at his country and mother. He screams that he will never have sex or children or even masturbate, that his culture "made [him] go" to Vietnam, and that he no longer believes in a God. She weeps with humiliation, first hitting him over the head and later telling him that he can't say "penis" in their house. A critic asked why he was so angry.

Erm... he lost his penis, control of his lower body, faith in his God and country; regrets having gone to war, and must now live with and love a woman who is the sum of everything that he despises and greatly encouraged his going to war (wherein he accidentally killed innocent civilians and one of his comrades). I would guess that he can hardly handle the trauma, hatred, stress, and cognitive dissonance and therefore lashes out in anger. Allegorically, he could represent the naivete of the young, and she could represent the Old Regime and culture; thus interpreted, the movie is a leftist masterpiece.

Whereas she shoehorned our lesson on identity and gender onto (and thereby trivialized) the work by claiming that he no longer knows what is expected of him and cannot see whether he is an adult, child, male, or female due to the loss of his genitals. This claim lacks evidence: he never complains about expectations or even mentions his gender or age identity. She tried to integrate post-modernism by some bizarre sleight of hand regarding lighting, basic inferences about mirrors enabling someone to 'see themselves,' and derived categorical critical imperatives from a single example.

I can't go on. I hate post-modernism and its hideous children. Works of fiction are not essays: they are products of the imagination to be enjoyed and savored.

-Duxwing
This was a good illustration of the degree of ridiculousness that our current state of thought and education can achieve.
I hope that in a few hundred years we can look back at this time and craft comedies out of this.
 

Cherry Cola

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What do you mean? Nm got it tired and slow in the head ATM. Only reading rest of this evening.
 

Seed-Wad

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To anyone using the term post-post-modernism, this can only be done in the art world, as the art world is ridiculous.

For any other uses, please consider the following:

Modernism is the act of 'liquefying solids', or in normal language: breaking down traditional rules and limitations. Modernism started somewhere around the renaissance with the objective to find the perfect set of rules to be put in place after the liquefaction; the utopia.

Post-modernism happens at the moment modernism turns on itself, as even 'modernism as a process' is not perfect, so it has to be liquefied as well. This results in an attitude of: everything is relative/subjective, even the value of something subjective is subjective.
So you get a kind of recursive liquefaction that leaves a culture totally immobile. Plus, the original goal to find a perfect set of rules becomes a strange, useless and impossible enterprise.

It is no wonder the utopia/dystopia model is out of fashion. The opposite of freedom is insignificance of choice; the opposite of a utopia is a world upon which nothing can have a grip except for continuously synthesizing and liquefying forces that are more or less random in nature.

About beauty and true art. I thought this documentary really captured my opinion better than I could myself:
http://documentaryaddict.com/Why+Beauty+Matters-542-documentary.html
(It's sometimes a bit pedantic, but, I don't know, that doesn't bother me personally)
 

Moocow

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I'm no expert on this myself but a prevailing notion I've been exposed to by more artistic intellectuals is that the world of art went wrong with postmodernism, that art as a thing by itself independent of context or external influence is an abomination.

What do you think?
Isn't believing that art can exist in a vacuum just ignorance? There isn't really a vacuum to exist in and that's why anything, no matter how mundane, can be interpreted as an analogy of some kind.
 

Meer

Jermbl
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Well, I don't know anything about the various flavours of modernism, but art certainly took a wrong turn with conceptual art.
 
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