• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

The Truth About Dishonesty

Solitaire U.

Last of the V-8 Interceptors
Local time
Today 12:56 PM
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
1,453
---
Bullshit! Chastising the little guy for stealing pencils from Robber Barons, and then implying some bullshit religious "Ten Commandments" crap as if NO priest has ever stolen an 8 year old boy's virginity is just asinine in the extreme.

You know what I feel when I dl that pirate MP3 and steal that inconsequential pencil from work? Retribution...petty but oh so satisfying.
 

Minuend

pat pat
Local time
Today 9:56 PM
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
4,142
---
Bullshit! Chastising the little guy for stealing pencils from Robber Barons, and then implying some bullshit religious "Ten Commandments" crap as if NO priest has ever stolen an 8 year old boy's virginity is just asinine in the extreme.

I don't think they made that point at all.

They were more giving examples of how we cheat in small scales. And the ten commandments thing wasn't really about religion, it just showed how our willingness to cheat decrease after being reminded of morality. Reading an philosophical artificial about morality would probably have the same effect.


You know what I feel when I dl that pirate MP3 and steal that inconsequential pencil from work? Retribution...petty but oh so satisfying.

Retribution for what?
 

Cognisant

cackling in the trenches
Local time
Today 8:56 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
11,393
---
I think the point, poorly made, was that theft has a lot to do with perception, if you did a survey asking people whether they'd steal from a large company store with good security or a small owner operated store with little security I'm fairly sure they'd pick the large company nearly every single time because the perception is that stealing from the large company is a relatively victimless crime.

Music is a perfect example of this, there's no justifying sneaking into a concert, however downloading pirated music is seen to be a victimless crime because the "product" being sold was never a physical thing in the first place and a pirate can make dozens of CDs for the price of a single, that is a CD with a single fucking song on it!

I have a lot more sympathy for software developers, game developers in particular, I honestly feel bad when I buy a game I like after it's on special because I know the developer isn't getting the money for it they deserve, although on the other hand I don't shy away from deriding people who buy Windows 8 especially at the inflated "newly released" price because it's just not necessary, the older versions still work fine and until they work out the bugs in this new version, and I guarantee there will be bugs and hackable exploits, you'd definitively be better off with an older version.

Anyway I think if as a society we want to discourage people from theft and theft like behaviour we need to change perceptions, in particular we need to make the victims of theft more apparent, for example if you steal from a large outlet store I guarantee it's not the shareholders you hurt, it's the people who work there because their hours and their bonuses are dependent upon the store's margins, and it's upsetting to have stuff stolen on your watch, nobody likes having to take opened packets and torn off tags off the floor, it feels like a personal failure, letting the team down.
 

Solitaire U.

Last of the V-8 Interceptors
Local time
Today 12:56 PM
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
1,453
---
And the ten commandments thing wasn't really about religion, it just showed how our willingness to cheat decrease after being reminded of morality.

I find nothing particularly moral in either religion or The Ten Commandments. Hence, I disagree entirely. If anything, my willingness to cheat increases after a "what passes for morality" guilt trip has been laid on me.




Retribution for what?

Being burned, cheated, robbed, lied to, and generally fucked-over by monolithic/minilithic power structures one too many times.

How many times must that 'morality axe' hanging over your head swing down on you before the blade is completely dulled?

I trust my own moral logic.
 

Niclmaki

Disturber of the Peace
Local time
Today 3:56 PM
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Messages
550
---
Location
Canada
Bullshit! Chastising the little guy for stealing pencils from Robber Barons, and then implying some bullshit religious "Ten Commandments" crap as if NO priest has ever stolen an 8 year old boy's virginity is just asinine in the extreme.

You know what I feel when I dl that pirate MP3 and steal that inconsequential pencil from work? Retribution...petty but oh so satisfying.

I think you missed the point, he even says that ANY moral ideals make it less likely for us to rationalize a cheat.

Don't get fixated on the examples -_-. You sound bitter, not objective.
 

Minuend

pat pat
Local time
Today 9:56 PM
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
4,142
---
I find nothing particularly moral in either religion or The Ten Commandments. Hence, I disagree entirely. If anything, my willingness to cheat increases after a "what passes for morality" guilt trip has been laid on me.

You don't have to find it moral to be reminded of morality. It's being reminded that is the clue, not the subject you are presented with.

Showing someone the 10 commandments in itself is not a guilt trip.

edit ninjaed
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 1:56 PM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,687
---
Interesting point. It agrees with my thesis that people are fundamentally honest and moral and that the best moral code - the Golden Rule - is built into us and does not come from religion. At any rate the results, including the "what the hell" effect sounds reasonable knowing human nature.

The major hole I see is he didn't mention anything about the mob effect. People will do bad things when in groups that they wouldn't do individually. Taking their banking example, the talk discussed the bad people as individuals, and not as a group. This is a key point because if you look into how the traders/bankers/market makers think in this context, say at a trial for insider trading which I've looked into, the prominent reason they cite for their behavior is that everybody is doing it.
 

Niclmaki

Disturber of the Peace
Local time
Today 3:56 PM
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Messages
550
---
Location
Canada
Interesting point. It agrees with my thesis that people are fundamentally honest and moral and that the best moral code - the Golden Rule - is built into us and does not come from religion. At any rate the results, including the "what the hell" effect sounds reasonable knowing human nature.

The major hole I see is he didn't mention anything about the mob effect. People will do bad things when in groups that they wouldn't do individually. Taking their banking example, the talk discussed the bad people as individuals, and not as a group. This is a key point because if you look into how the traders/bankers/market makers think in this context, say at a trial for insider trading which I've looked into, the prominent reason they cite for their behavior is that everybody is doing it.


The only part he mentions the group idea, is about the kid who was downloading music illegally and it was OK because everyone was doing it. Just a tool used in rationalizing a behaviour I think.
 

Solitaire U.

Last of the V-8 Interceptors
Local time
Today 12:56 PM
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
1,453
---
I think you missed the point, he even says that ANY moral ideals make it less likely for us to rationalize a cheat.

I completely understood the point, and totally disagree. Notwithstanding that 'moral ideals' are not universally definable, I believe there are situations where sound 'moral ideals' would make it JUSTIFIABLE to rationalize cheating.

Case in point: Our old Verizon internet service in the US had an average of 30 hours of downtime per month. Verizon's excuse for this was "Server overload during peak use hours." In addition to that, our contract stipulated "1.5 to 3 mbps" but in reality it never peaked at more than 980 kbps. Verizon's tech center's only excuse was that we were located in the middle of a "highly saturated service zone". Their service tech that troubleshot our problem blamed it on an antiquated, overburdened junction box 800 meters downwind that was well-known (by the field techs) to be causing bottlenecks.

Of course, we were still expected to fulfill the terms of our contract by paying our bill every month in full. Other than being very apologetic, Verizon was unwilling to either prorate us for the downtime or replace whatever equipment required replacement on their end.

So at the end of our year-long contract, we canceled Verizon, got together with our neighbor, bought an 8 port switch and 100 feet of ethernet cable, and kicked them down $20 a month to jack into their 3mbps TimeWarner conex.

What we did is a step beyond cheating. TimeWarner's service contract expressly forbids its customers from re-distributing its service, dog-forbid re-selling it.

But this situation didn't BEGIN with us saying, "Why should we pay Verizon $54.95 for internet service when we can give our neighbor 20 bucks a month for the same thing, thus benefiting both ourselves and our neighbor at the expense of Verizon and TimeWarner? Yeah, let's do it...Fuck the system!"

No, it began with Verizon assuming itself morally and legally un-obligated to inform us of service deficiencies in our area that were well-known by its personnel before signing us up. The culmination of this was that we felt morally (not to mention financially) OBLIGATED to take action to eliminate, not the monthly bill, but the stress, anger, and feelings of being cheated out of something that was promised us and never received in full.

Do you see my point yet? Sure, cheating sometimes begins with a guy simply pilfering pencils from his employer, but sometimes that guy's motivation runs far deeper than petty personal gain. Your video was very slickly produced, what with the witty illustrations and all, but it failed miserably to account for the underlying concrete realities of cheating.

Entities like Verizon, which legally insulate themselves from 'moral ideals' regarding cheating, then dump all the moral obligation on their clients, are themselves providing enormous encouragement for society at large to view cheating as a sound moral ideal in and of itself. All that "Bankers should have the opportunity to confess, blah blah..." was just asinine! I couldn't care less if Verizon were to publicly apologize for lying to me and robbing me of hundreds of dollars. Not that it will ever happen, until Verizon finds itself facing bankruptcy and is forced to apologize as part of its government bailout, like General Motors had to (We're sorry we pushed gas-guzzling SUVs on the American Public, now give us our 20 billion dollar bailout...uh, please. :) )

You sound bitter, not objective.

Is The Great Light of Objectivity at the end of my tunnel of bitterness paved in concrete? If it is, feel free to pursue your moral obligation to guide me there.
 

Niclmaki

Disturber of the Peace
Local time
Today 3:56 PM
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Messages
550
---
Location
Canada
I see, I see. It is a slippery slope indeed to decide when you are justified to rationalize a "cheat." You can't look at every situation and decide that cheating would be the WRONG thing to do. Sometimes it is the right thing to fo. In your example, I'd agree but for one thing. That being Timewarner paying the price as well.
I think the main point is we should pause before rationalizing our actions and take a glimpse at our own moral code more often.
And the part about the bankers apologizing is moreso reccomending a kind of confessing program wiyhin the companies. (Doubt it will ever happer) But, if they had a program that had them recognize when they were doing wrong they wouldn't end up with the "What the hell effect."

And by being bitter, I meant the bias was very strong. :p
 
Top Bottom