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New INF here

subwayrider

INTP wannabe
Local time
Today 1:20 PM
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
163
---
Location
USA
Hello, I am subwayrider. As with a lot of the other INFs, I've been unsure for some time as to whether I'm the P or J variant. I know a fair amount about MB as well as Enneagram, though I would consider myself an expert by no means. I come here to try and get a better grasp on logic, debate and the sharing of ideas. The discourse here appeals to me more than that on INTJs, and I find INTPs fascinating in their own ways.

:smoker:
 

Etheri

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 9:20 PM
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
1,000
---
If you're insanely lazy, never clean up and never get anything done and prefer a day where you have absolutely nothing planned, you're a P.
If you actually care about order in anything other than an abstract mathematical sense, if you want things tidy, care about the time of the day, finish deadlines with a margin of over 10% and actually make plans without other people absolutely forcing you to, you're a J.

Either way, we're all abit of both. Besides, atleast you're not an extraverted sensor, imagine how dreadful that would be ;). Welcome!
 

Nick

Frozen Fighter
Local time
Today 11:20 PM
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
349
---
Location
Isles of Long
^lol, perfect explaination on the P.

Want to know DEEP DOWN what we are as INTPs, here ya go
 

subwayrider

INTP wannabe
Local time
Today 1:20 PM
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
163
---
Location
USA
If you're insanely lazy, never clean up and never get anything done and prefer a day where you have absolutely nothing planned, you're a P.
If you actually care about order in anything other than an abstract mathematical sense, if you want things tidy, care about the time of the day, finish deadlines with a margin of over 10% and actually make plans without other people absolutely forcing you to, you're a J.

Either way, we're all abit of both. Besides, atleast you're not an extraverted sensor, imagine how dreadful that would be ;). Welcome!

Thanks. The issue with a lot of INFJs is that INFJ may be the most P-leaning type of all the Js. It's my understanding that the issue can be more complex than what you wrote above, but I would tend to agree.

I guess I should have said that I'm pretty sure I'm INFJ, but have the intermittent doubt.

Yes, I also find Se types... hard to be around for very long. They can be very charming and fun in short bursts, though.

Thanks for the welcome and the help!
 

Etheri

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 9:20 PM
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
1,000
---
I guess I should have said that I'm pretty sure I'm INFJ, but have the intermittent doubt.

Well, as far as my pattern recognition goes, I think that confirms your INF part atleast.

I quite sure someone here once described what most INTPs go through in their first months on the forum, and it included doubting they were truly INTP. Somehow, the doubt just seems inherent to us. I can't find the post however. (My P prevents me from doing anything other than the bare minimum,... Or it is laziness I am describing? :D)

(Random sidethought, while I've doubted being INTP, I honestly don't think I'd ever been so appealed to a theory which basically divides humanity in a bunch of boxes based on diffrences / preferances if it didn't seem to fit me so damn well...)
Either way, there are a bunch of INTJs around. And there's a bunch of people who change their type from time to time.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Local time
Today 4:20 PM
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
3,783
---
Hello, I am subwayrider. As with a lot of the other INFs, I've been unsure for some time as to whether I'm the P or J variant. I know a fair amount about MB as well as Enneagram, though I would consider myself an expert by no means. I come here to try and get a better grasp on logic, debate and the sharing of ideas. The discourse here appeals to me more than that on INTJs, and I find INTPs fascinating in their own ways.

:smoker:

Awww, thanks! :) INFX's are interesting, too.

This spoiler below this description will take you to a story that I use to greet each new member. I hope that it provides you with a good characterization of major forum members and a solid impression of what we're like along with an appreciation for the themes of self-overcoming (the example in the story being Fear vs. Bravery) and existential difficulties (the example in the story being ontology and meaning-making). However accurate this story is in describing the forum and its members, please, don't take it for a full psychoanalysis.

And for my critics, I've re-read the story and now understand why you might misunderstand what I meant as a perfectly innocent friendship. If you look at it the right way, it is creepy. So I replaced Jenny with Fukyo (@Fukyo is my biggest, best critic, so I've got to thank her somehow ;)) and modified the reader's interactions with her. Now, just because you didn't tell me (and to prove a point to Fukyo) I'm going to assume that you are a girl/woman/old lady in setting the pronouns and characters of the short romance arc.

As winter's snowflakes drift from clouds on high, you make soft strides o'er the ground below. Beneath your coat, bandages cover the wounds of battles past. You think of how your blood had run red as an autumn apple, making little crimson pools in the freshly fallen snow. Yet you didn't let the darkness take you; with fury that burnt like the summer sun, you'd risen, angry tears pouring down your cheeks. You'd wanted to make the seas run red with the blood of those who'd attacked you; to choke the rivers with their bodies; to rend the night with their screams of anguish! But they had gone, and you were alone.

You took what little you had left: a beaver-skin coat too ragged to sell, wool pants too tattered to wear, and love note-- now wet and nearly ruined-- from a John, boy that you'd met in the last town you'd been to, Evair. On that first night you'd met at the New Year's festival, he'd wrapped you in his coat when he'd seen you shivering, he'd listened when you'd ranted about the cold, and he'd had just that certain twinkle in his eye. When the night had ended,she'd taken you back to his house. Suddenly, you'd realized that you liked him, but not like that; he'd noticed, slapped his forehead, put his palm over his face, and said, "You're right, I'm taking things too fast; I'm sorry. Here, I hope that this helps," and offered you a silver piece to get a room at the town's inn. You'd said goodbye, walked down the steps, and trudged off through the gathering snow to that nice warm bed. There's a silver lining to every cloud, you'd thought to yourself.

The next day, you hadn't seen him. You'd looked for him by the ashes of the bonfire, in the tavern, and even in the jail. No luck. In desperation, you'd walked back to his house and knocked on the door. No response.

Oi, what a strange girl: Eager to get frisky one day and hidden the next. had rung your thought. How could anyone be so shaky with their feelings?

But as your eyes had passed over the top of his door frame, you'd found the answer. A Latin motto, in black gothic letters upon the worn white wood, had been there. It had read, Logica, Scientia, Veritas. Classic INTP.

I guess that Fe had gotten the best of him

And as the days had passed John had become but a foggy memory, and your time at the inn had come to an end. The innkeeper had given you a few hours that morning to pack your things: spare clothes, a few pieces of bread, a jug of water, a small knife. As you had been putting them into a burlap sack that you'd found in the post-New-Years garbage, you'd heard a knock on the door to your room. "Who is it?" You'd asked. No reply. You'd sighed, gotten up, and opened the door. No-one had been there, only a note. "To subwayrider," had read the title. Within, there had been all the signs of a love-struck thinker trying to express himself: crossed out words replaced with ones that were themselves crossed out and replaced with words whose definitions you could barely remember, forcefully pressed pen-strokes, and even a horridly scribbled picture mentioning a visit to a place called "INTP Forum". Another sigh had passed your lips; 'twas cute.

So with note in hand you had left that town, and with note in hand you'd been beaten down, cut, stabbed, and hurled against a sycamore tree by a roving gang of robbers. They'd left you for dead, but they had been wrong. And you had risen from your snowy resting place to take revenge by living-- living in a place where one could walk in peace. You'd ripped some cloth from your meager clothes and fashioned bandages to keep your wounds at bay, gathered your strength, and pressed on into the cold.

And so you stand in the freshly fallen powder like a springtime bud: hardy, strong, and alive despite the bitter cold of nature. You stride forward, eager to know what the world has in store, eager to forget the battles past, eager to let the wounds heal and let you live in peace. Zzzip! An arrow zings by! Snapped back from your thinking, you leap behind a snowbank!

"Halt, who goes there?" cries a woman's voice.

You press closer to the bank, shut your eyes, and shudder.

"Who goes there?!" she cries again.

Your chest rises and falls like a drum beaten by a madman.

"In the name of the order of the INTP forum, who goes there?" the woman cries out once more.

Your eyes flash open. You recall the note that you'd carried in your pocket. You realize that you might be saved!

"H-here! I-I'm h-here" you chatter, partly from cold, partly from fear.

"Then stand and unfold yourself!" comes the reply.

You rise and shout back, "I-I a-a-am s-s-subwayrider the B-Brave!"

The woman wears a thick, russet tunic-- warm enough to brave any chill-- navy blue pants, full mail, and hard leather boots. She carries a hard-used, rusty broadsword upon her hip, and, upon one of her rough, strong arms, a buckler that bears the image of a quill and inkpot. Beneath the symbol are the words, "Logica, Scientia, Veritas". Her mien is one of confident determination, and her eyes look upon the world with the air of long-dead heroes. Relieved, you walk toward her and exchange stories. Her name is Fukyo, and she's been guardian of the order of the INTP forum for years and asks if you'd like a place to stay. You nod, teeth still chattering in the bitter cold.

The two of you walk for hours on end, crossing wind-swept hill and frozen dale. The snow, which once fell but one flake at a time, now falls in huge sheets and piles in great drifts as far as the eye can see. The wind howls and roars like a demon, ready to swallow you both up. You shudder and shake, but Fukyo has nothing to wrap you in. The winter wonderland has become a frozen waste, and the sun, which sets early in the winter, falls below the horizon. The night is as black as pitch.

"H-how are w-we to g-get t-to the O-order?" you ask, teeth clattering together.

"Well, I know a song that will help us get home," she replies:

"In winter-tiding's starry night
See abbey fires burning bright
See the north-star's e'er fixed light
And you will find your home to-night"

Her voice croaks a bit with the cold, and you can barely hear the words over the blasting wind, but for that moment, she looks happy-- like woodpecker caught in a thunderstorm who finds brief respite beneath a tree. Yet the snow pounds down like huge bricks of lead. Each step is harder than the last, and you eventually drop to your knees in exhaustion.

"F-Fukyo, g-give th-this n-note to a girl n-named J-John in E-evair. T-tell h-her th-that i-it had k-kept me warm. Th-then, r-raise y-your s-sword to s-s-tormy c-clouds o-on h-high, th-then b-bring i-it d-down u-upon m-my n-neck; i-it's a b-better way t-to d-die."

"subwayrider, where is your courage?"

"I-in the d-drifts of s-snow"

Alice pauses, looking down at her boots. Then she kneels down before you and looks you in the eye.

"Come pain, come death, come suffering, your name is forever. Like a legend, it carries you thousands of miles. So rise, brave Shistea, rise and take the name that you were given!" Your jaw quivers a bit. Your whole body tenses up. With one great breath, you straighten to a height that you never known that you'd had. With the fury of the summer sun, with angry tears frozen on your cheeks, with all the courage of your name, you rise.

"Death's scythe shall clang upon the armor of my rage" you shout, too furious to chatter.

And so it does. Made warm by the heat of a summer sun within your breast, you press on for miles through the night and eventually come to a titanic castle. You barely make out a motto on its towering iron doors, "Logica, Scientia, Veritas". Alice smiles at you as you mouth the words. The sentries, who stand upon the walls, call down through the howling wind, "Fukyo the Guardian, who stands beside you?"

"S-subwayrider th-the B-B-Brave!" you scream up at them "A-and I-I'll c-climb up th-that t-t-tower and r-rip y-your throats o-out i-i-if y-you d-don't l-let us in! A-AM I-I C-C-CLEAR?"

Fukyo nudges your ribs, "Easy, easy, take it easy. We're reasonable people here, no need to shout".

"W-wait? Th-they're a-all INTP's l-like m-m-me?"

"Well, yes, for the most part; however similar we may be, though, some of our most colorful members aren't INTP's at all.". You tilt your head questioningly.

"Cognisant, for example, is an ENTP, and he's practically melded with the floorboards. The place just wouldn't be the same without his Ne-fueled dreams of humanoid robots and sentient AI. Just be careful with his feelings, though: he's sad and lonely so he tries to pretend that he's emotionless."

One sentry runs down and opens the a small door in the larger ones. The two of you enter and proceed into the bailey.

"My, my, my, is this subwayrider the Brave?" asks the guard. You snarl at him like a hungry wolf. He gulps. "For the title is well deserved!" The sentry directs you toward a large stone building just a little to the left of where you'd entered. He tips his helmet disappears into the falling snow.

The two of you reach the door, and Fukyo, upon smelling the crackling oil of roast boar wafting down from a kitchen window, lets out a glum, lonely sigh, and says,"Well, I suppose that this is goodbye, subwayrider. My place is out there, standing watch and searching the woods for others like you."; Then, she too disappears into the drifting flakes and howling wind. You open the door and enter.

You find yourself standing in the atrium of a great castle. A mosaic of light streams through stained glass windows bearing the visages of such great men as Socrates, Plato, Godel, Picasso, and Nietszche and creates bright, dappled pools the dim vastness. Dozens of archways carve tiny holes of black into the lower parts of the walls, and two white-bearded old men argue unintelligibly over what looks like calculus, but could very well be abstract modern art. You wander through the softly rustling halls and hear the clinking of glass and the ringing of laughter down another hall. Though they are far away, these festivities have a distant quality in themselves-- like the horizon at sunset, always so far away; curious, you walk through an archway and toward the far and merry sounds.

As you softly step over a fallen lectern, you hear the racket reach a climax. The laughter is still distant, yet roaring! You wish that you could enter, you wish that you could just walk in and slip into the crowd, you wish that you'd instantly be one of the members, but you know that such things take time; as you begin to walk away, the words of Fukyo transfix you like one of her arrows, "So rise, brave subwayrider, rise and take the name that you were given!". You imagine her standing beside you with that look of devil-may-care determination in her eyes, a gutsy smile on her lips, weather-beaten arms crossed over her breastplate, dinged and rusty sword hanging from her hip, and flakes of snow drifting from her hair. You stare at her and whisper, "But Fukyo, I can't; I'm just a wanderer. They've likely got years of philosophical, political, and scientific education and experience behind them; I'm only a kid."

With an incredulous chuckle and a hand on your shoulder, Fukyo replies, "Gimme a break, kid. These people were all once just like you: cold, lonely wanderers looking for a place to call home. And guess what? The order welcomed them with open arms."

"But that's inductive logic!" you reply, shoulder slinking back under her glove.

Fukyo retorts, "The matter at hand is scientific, not philosophical. We're looking to create an empirical model that will predict the most likely outcome, not every outcome."

"But what if a black swan arrives?" you implore her, imploring her to see the deeper philosophical question.

"I understand that my model does not account for every possibility, but since I am limited to knowing only inputs and outputs, not the true nature of the acceptance-rejection mechanism; therefore, the best that I can do is make an educated guess, and my guess is that you'll be brought into the fold swimmingly."

With a heavy sigh, you nod, "Point made, Alice, point made," escape the words. You glumly turn to face the entrance. Again her hand stops you!

"Hey? Is Shistea the Brave about to enter a room all sulky and sad?" she prods. Your silence unnerves her slightly, yet she presses on.

"subwayrider, listen,." she begins, a hint of compassion entering her voice, "We all get nervous when we're going to meet new people: Nobody can tell you what'll happen, they could be crazy, they could be murderers, they even might want to kidnap you and boil your skin in molten salt-- the whole gamut of human existence is a possibility when meeting people for the first time--"

"--see! You're just going to get yourself--" you butt in, sitting down again.

She continues with a voice quiet as a summer stream but as strong as mountain-tops "--even though we know that the next person could very well harbor deep animosity toward every living thing, we keep talking, for long years of lonely sorrow can be outweighed by just a few of friendship."

A long, quiet pause breaks her words, and you reply without a sound. You reach your hand up for some help in righting yourself and... find that she, being but a memory, isn't there. But her words echo in your mind, stirring a thunder in your heart. You rise without tears, a smile of fond reminiscence upon your face, whisper, "Thanks, Alice," turn toward the door, and enter.

A resplendent golden light beams down from a chandelier upon a long, broad banquet table piled high with all the beasts and plants of the earth. A sad boy of twenty-two years sits there, drunk, wearing a masquerade mask over half his face, and alone. But not quite. Around him, dressed in all the airs of high society, are figures made from brass and wood. From time to time, one raises an arm and brings it crashing down on the table as if it had heard something worth laughing over. Then the boy laughs, a creaking, distant, lonely laugh, one wet with wine. As you walk in, he sees your shadow on the table. As he looks up, his mask falls, and he roots you to the spot with eyes full of pain and loneliness. Then, a soft, shivering sigh passes his lips, he slaps his forehead, squeezes his eyes shut, then tips the table over with a tremendous crash and sprints out a door in the back yelling in an Australian accent, "I have no soul! Emotions are but a defect of my design. See the men of wood and brass-- they don't even wince when they're lonely!"

Disturbed, you gulp and step out of the room. Was that Cognisant? you wonder. You return to the atrium, but the two old men take no notice of you. You shiver underneath your mantle of snow and decide to look for a fireplace. Gazing about the atrium, you see an archway labeled "Kitchen" and proceed down its long, dark length. At archway's end, you see, nestled among cabinets full of delicious treats, succulent meats, and tiny kegs of cordial, a huge, perfectly square island table made of finely cut marble that stands upon a tremendous base of oak that tapers as it rises. Forgetting your cold for the moment, you take a closer look: Upon the oak are hewed tiny figures that tell stories of days long past: Two muscular men stack stones while surrounded by picturesque summer beauty above a caption that reads "The Founding," hundreds of tiny, haggard figures enter through the castle's wide-swung gates above a caption, "The Great Welcoming," and a titanic dragon stands upon the castle's tallest tower, breathing gigantic plumes of flame while the tiny figures of The Great Welcoming, now dressed in armor, fire arrows at it above the words, "The Fe War".

As you sit and examine these beautiful pieces, you hear footsteps and turn your head to the door. A man of about fifty years with snow-white hair and an equally pale goatee enters. His expression is one of stately calm, and his eyes barely widen when they fall on you.

"Architect, pleased to meet you." The man begins as he opens a cabinet to produce a large ham, "I take it that you've wandered in here of your own accord."

You'd reply, but the thought of that huge ham roasting over an open pit, fat sizzling an popping over the flame, is too much. You rise and run at him!

He shouts and bops you over the head with it! Dazed and rubbing your aching noggin, you slink back down. "Ohhh, owwww..."

Chuckling, Architect replies, "There's plenty more where that came from; take that as you will." and begins slicing the ham.

Defeated, you look down at your shoes. Your stomach growls, and Architect sighs and answers it: "If you had desired some, asking would have been preferable."

You smile, eyes widening, stomach growling. Cracking a bit of a smile himself, Architect hands you a slice. You wolf it down and look up to him for more. With a relaxed and slightly tired air, Architect cuts a big slice off and hands it to you. "Thanks, oldster!" You blurt out.

Without changing his mien in the slightest, Architect cocks an eyebrow, tilts his head, and replies with quiet sarcasm, "Oh? Am I 'oldster' now?" and walks back down the hall, chuckling softly.

You turn to the ham, licking your lips in anticipation. Its smooth sides are dotted with tiny flecks of rich and earthy spices, and as you bite into it you find that the flesh is juicy beyond compare, the rich flavors of pork and pepper and paprika swirl in your mouth. After wolfing it down, you let out a satisfied burp. With a good meal inside you, you go for some more exploring. In the atrium, you see another archway, one labeled, "The Sanctum of The Enlightened;" intrigued, you head inside: there is no light at the end of the tunnel, and you can smell incense.

The strength of the incense smell doubles each time that you halve the distance between yourself and its source. In so increasing, it goes from being just a light scent to a choking, overpowering gas that sends you into fits of coughing. Your eyes and nose run like raging rivers over the pale landscape of your face, you hunch over and wheeze as if you'd been trapped in a fire, your lungs burn as the smoke grows denser. Gasping for breath, you collapse onto your hands and knees.

You hear the soft clanking of distant chain-mail and slightly creaking voice. It's Fukyo! Blinking through the tears brought on by searing incense, you look her in the eyes. Wryly, she smiles, heaves you up by the arm, and leads you into the room itself. The tiny chamber is dimly lit by short, broad wax candles that burn like small, lonely stars in a midnight sky, and at the chamber's end are two men dressed in colored robes who each kneel before their own idol; with heads bowed hand hands folded in prayer, each man's silent whispers move like gentle moonlight winds and blow upon the small, ankle-high golden idol sitting before him.

"Shirstea the Brave, remember?" she whispers in your ear. You nod-- eyes calmer than they'd been before entering Cognisant's chamber-- and tap one figure's shoulder.

In unison, they speak with a steady, ethereal voice, each pointing to the other as his name is called "Greetings, traveler, we are Da Blob and Lyra. What brings your to our order?"

"Well," you wheeze, "I was cold." while scratching the back of your head, slightly unnerved by their stereophonic speech.

"Ah, I see, another world-weary one enters our midst. And why do you walk as if you were being helped by another?" continues the pair's eerie voice.

You pause and answer, "What you do mean, 'as if helped by another?' Fukyo is standing right beside me. Can't you see that?"

Lyra, the one on the left, turns to Da Blob and speaks: "Da Blob, this traveler has not yet grown accustomed to the powers of our incense, perhaps this Fukyois a hallucination?"

Da Blob, the one on the right, replies, "Indeed, he is hallucinating. Perhaps we can use him as a medium to worlds yet unseen. 'Hallucination' is just a term invented by psychiatrists unwilling to accept the Truth."

"Let me--" you pause to take a coughing breath, "-- guess: you're the monks of this order."

With single, smooth rotation of their heads, they look you in the eye and reply, "Indeed, we are."

Examining their robes for a moment, you noticed that they don't have exactly the same vestments. Da Blob's is a deep purple with a gold cross across the front, while Lyra wears one of navy blue with "Pod'Lair" emblazoned just below the collar.

You continue "You worship different idols, yet you speak of a single Truth, and you spend your days in here breathing this, what is it, concentrated rat poison?, yet you call me crazy."

"These are the mysteries of our order, traveler."

Fukyo, or at least, the image before your eyes, sound within your ears, and touch upon your skin that you believe to be an ontological entity that you refer to as "Fukyo," shrugs, sighs, and rolls her eyes as she replies, "Listen, guys, Shirstea is new here, and she could use some directions."

"Very well, fellow soul, please, give the wanderer to us." The pair ask.

"Are you kidding me!?" Fukyo counters, "Don't you remember the Noodle Incident?!"

"Nobody can prove that we did that!" they cry in protest, voices losing their ephemeral tone.

She sighs and drags you back down the hallway, grunting a bit under the strain. "You're awfully heavy for someone who wanders alone."

With a sheepish grin, you reply, "Under this cloak, I'm a wall of muscle."

"Oh really?" she asks as she sets you back down at the entrance. "Let me see, oh macho traveler, how this feels." and gives your bellybutton a good poke. "Soft as Sunday marmalade."

"My unassuming figure aside, what was the Noodle Incident?" you ask.

"It involved a hippo, a toaster, and a sack of frozen peas. You don't want to know the details." she replies. Disgusted by the images sent flying through your brain, you close your eyes and cover your mouth. "Gross!" you moan, and when you open your eyes again, Fukyo is gone; your limp, terrified form falls with a thump.

When you awaken, you find yourself strapped to wooden table in a dim room with a soft, white pillow beneath your head. A cloaked figure emerges from the shadows, holding a leather satchel that bears your name.

"Hail, traveler, and welcome to our quiet halls. You'll find a room down five doors and on your left-- mind the cobblestone floors, it's easy to stub your toe. The nights are a bit cold, drafty, and damp, but there's plenty of hot, crispy, succulent roast boar and cold, sweet, clear mead to wash it down. This place has a glorious history of titanic battles among the great knights of our order: Cognisant, Architect, Da Blob, and ProxyAmenRa, just to name a few. And in our finest hours, we've taken trophies: the heads of Norse Gods, the crimson blood of dreamers scorned, and the still-beating heart of a troll. Yet, if trade you seek, other manors may better able to help you.

For example, and though you likely didn't see it through the snow, the one-hundred story glass tower that you saw on the way in is a colony of ENTJ's; their very similar functions and yet different perspective on life have made trade and friendship with them both lucrative and interesting. But they are just as 'soulless' as we, and few have ever tried to mate with them-- a course I that highly recommend maintaining.

As a final detail, even we of the rational temperament can fall victim to our emotions. Try to remember that in your posts, as even a simple, "Alright, let's let this cool off for a few days" or "Oh, that must have hurt something awful; here's a dry shoulder *hug* " can work wonders when another poster is angry or upset."

With a gentle nod and the wink of an eye, he hands you the satchel. Therein you find your room keys, a thick, warm, cotton cloak, cold, slippery slices of partridge carefully wrapped in parchment paper, a small, hearty loaf of bread, and a frosty glass bottle of water from the castle's spring.

"Just in case you decide to leave, let this be a gift from our order" interrupts the figure "Oh, and do dig deeper, you'll be pleasantly surprised."

Reaching further into the satchel's murky depths, you find a scroll on which is written in small, neat script, an oath:

The Thinker's Creed

In brightest day,
In darkest night
No falsehood shall escape my sight
Let those who worship Madness' might
Beware my power,
Pure logic's light!

The cloaked figure touches your shoulder and asks:

"Swear you this oath? For only through it shall you find Truth, be it in the Void or another code. In times of darkness, let it be your candle."

I expand the story's middle periodically, so check back on other, later Introit posts if you like it.

-Duxwing
 

Cavallier

Oh damn.
Local time
Today 1:20 PM
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
3,639
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If you're insanely lazy, never clean up and never get anything done and prefer a day where you have absolutely nothing planned, you're a P.
If you actually care about order in anything other than an abstract mathematical sense, if you want things tidy, care about the time of the day, finish deadlines with a margin of over 10% and actually make plans without other people absolutely forcing you to, you're a J.

Okay, I agree except that the one INFJ I knew fit the first description much more than the second.

Welcome subway.:smiley_emoticons_mr

Edit: Don't mind Dux. We keep him around for the lulz.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Local time
Today 4:20 PM
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
3,783
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Edit: Don't mind Dux. We keep him around for the lulz.

Pardon my utter cluelessness, but... do you really mean that? If you do, then... ouch, man, that hurts.

-Duxwing
 

Cavallier

Oh damn.
Local time
Today 1:20 PM
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
3,639
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Please don't be offended. Dux dear, if we keep you around at all consider it a good thing. It's just that most of us aren't super appreciative of your way of doing things.

You see many of us are here because we see this place as a sort of sanctuary from a world always telling us we need to fit in more, be more social, and get in touch with our feelings. I suspect you mean well but this is one of the few places we can commune with our antisocial natures while concurrently discuss any little thing that crosses our minds. Often your posts and comments infer that we are wrong in doing so.

A polite suggestion? Read for a while and comment a little less. Take note of the things we seem to value and the things that we bristle at. Finally, accept what it means to be an INTP and maybe stop trying to "fix" us.

Also, you can assume that many of my one liners are tongue in cheek.;) Being kept around for the lulz is fairly close to being endearing in my book.
 

TheScornedReflex

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Hello and welcome.
 

subwayrider

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You see many of us are here because we see this place as a sort of sanctuary from a world always telling us we need to fit in more, be more social, and get in touch with our feelings.

For a people who are supposedly out of touch with feelings, you all sure seem polite and easygoing. I guess that doesn't necessarily entail being in touch with emotion, though.

I still very much relate to the sentiment, however. I felt cast out most of my life by the Extraverts and Sensors I was surrounded by. I never quite grew into myself until I found MB and started frequenting a few of the typology-based forums.

As you probably know, INFs are known to be lovers of fiction-- the story looks great! I'll be reading it shortly.
 

loveofreason

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Oh! The pig-man is tanked! You picked it. Must be the crashing conjunction of Ni-Se guts that give you such a feel for strangeness. In, you know... that INFJ way. Welcome.
 

Duxwing

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Please don't be offended. Dux dear, if we keep you around at all consider it a good thing. It's just that most of us aren't super appreciative of your way of doing things.

You see many of us are here because we see this place as a sort of sanctuary from a world always telling us we need to fit in more, be more social, and get in touch with our feelings. I suspect you mean well but this is one of the few places we can commune with our antisocial natures while concurrently discuss any little thing that crosses our minds. Often your posts and comments infer that we are wrong in doing so.

A polite suggestion? Read for a while and comment a little less. Take note of the things we seem to value and the things that we bristle at. Finally, accept what it means to be an INTP and maybe stop trying to "fix" us.

Also, you can assume that many of my one liners are tongue in cheek.;) Being kept around for the lulz is fairly close to being endearing in my book.

Indeed, I must, as I've been taught by previous forums, seek first to understand, then to judge. I have a hypothesis about why my posts are so emotional at times:

1.) For some reason, I always do the opposite of what the crowd does.
2.) My dad taught me to write fiction with powerful, deep imagery that grabs you by the heart-strings
3.) My therapist tells me to lean into my emotions instead of detaching from them

Hence, I try to use Fe here as a method of training it. I suspect, however, that such an idea is frowned upon here because, in a way, I'm doing push-ups in the parlor by honing my inferior function here. Do try to read my posts outside Human Relations, though; you'll find that I've got Ti and Ne to spare.

-Duxwing

PS Awww, I'm glad that I'm not just a clown to you. Being with people who care feels good-- I'm lonely at school. :)
 

subwayrider

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Oh! The pig-man is tanked! You picked it. Must be the crashing conjunction of Ni-Se guts that give you such a feel for strangeness. In, you know... that INFJ way. Welcome.

Thanks. I've already read some of your posts. You seem interesting. I've heard certain of the other types say they find us, INFJs and INTPs that is, at least from looking at us when we introspect, to have similar demeanor. Tandem functions make people seem more like each other, I guess. In any case, I find the logic here a lot easier to follow, and thus refute, than on INTJs.

I like the emoticons here :borg:
 

subwayrider

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Hence, I try to use Fe here as a method of training it. I suspect, however, that such an idea is frowned upon here because, in a way, I'm doing push-ups in the parlor by honing my inferior function here. Do try to read my posts outside Human Relations, though; you'll find that I've got Ti and Ne to spare.

From my perspective, it's always funny to witness young Thinkers wield Feeling because it's, by definition, immature and clumsy. I suppose Feeler logic looks the same way to you guys. Maybe we can help each other out since I'm here to train Ti.
 

snafupants

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An INFX? Wear an athletic supporter at all times. :D

The discourse here appeals to me more than that on INTJs
INTJs have discourse...with people?! I call bullshit.
 

subwayrider

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@Duxwing

I thought the story was great. The symbolism was intriguing and as a whole it was illuminating. The middle was too long for my taste, but otherwise terrific writing. Assuming you are INTP, it's interesting nothing the differences in writing style. For one thing, you seem to have a good grasp on sensory detail, which I would attribute to tertiary Si. I could never write with such detail, and when I read many of the writings that make use of it, I find I have a hard time visualizing it all.

I understand every type has an almost love-hate relationship with the inferior. It might actually be love-hate, if not for the fact that the times in which you end up indulging it, you're not really enjoying it. It just needs to be indulged. It's out of our control. That said, I find I hate manifestations of Se in myself, and a "War Against Se" is an apt metaphor for the relationship.

I would also like to see the lover from the beginning come back. But maybe that's just 'cause I'm a feely Feeler.
 

subwayrider

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An INFX? Wear an athletic supporter at all times. :D


INTJs have discourse...with people?! I call bullshit.

Your humor is much appreciated... as well your avatar. :eek:

Indeed, I find Te types to be, ehm, too sure of their opinions. I think it has to do with the deductive reasoning of Te. See, by my understanding, their logic is derived from the external evidence that precedes the reasoning, so it tends to be self-evident... which they're well aware of.

In certain circles, they call it the "Te Bitch-Slap."
 

snafupants

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Your humor is much appreciated... as well your avatar. :eek:

@subwayrider

Glad to hear it pleases someone. :^^:

Do you often ride the subway, subwayrider?! Where do you go?
Indeed, I find Te types to be, ehm, too sure of their opinions. I think it has to do with the deductive reasoning of Te. See, by my understanding, their logic is derived from the external evidence that precedes the reasoning, so it tends to be self-evident... which they're well aware of.

It's the other way around, at least with Ni-Te. Ni comes to a conclusion and Te scrounges for evidence to back it up. I'm saying that external evidence does not precede the intuitive grasp and perceived certitude of Ni conclusions...which is why INTJs may come across as arrogant jagoffs.

In an ESTJ, who also prominently uses Te, I would contend that the external evidence does indeed precede reasoning, because of the dissimilar position of Te in ESTJs and INTJs. Whether an ESTJ or ENTJ, Te reasoning comes first, then Si or Ni back up those conclusions and arrange them into larger folders.

In certain circles, they call it the "Te Bitch-Slap."

The Ni-doorslam is worse. :D
 

loveofreason

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My posts? They must be those strange missives from the past, entombed in amber, travelling through time without me.... And you opened them... they landed in a strange mind! Does that make me a resurrected alien face-hugger parasite? :eek:
 

snafupants

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My posts? They must be those strange missives from the past, entombed in amber, travelling through time without me.... And you opened them... they landed in a strange mind! Does that make me a resurrected alien face-hugger parasite? :eek:

@loveofreason

Did you locate the cough syrup again? What are you on about?

Amber? Aliens? Time travel? Sounds like a fun porno!:elephant:
 

loveofreason

echoes through time
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Cough syrup? Who needs cough syrup when you have alzheimer's!?
 

subwayrider

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You guys do DXM, too?! We have a lot more in common than I thought. I'm even starting to suspect I might be INTP... but I think I'm too emotional for that.

Did the Olney's Lesions thing turn out to be true? I hope not.

For the record, loveofreason's words seem to flow out of him/her the way a stereotypical INFJ's would. He/she even has an avy of two people hugging. The NF is strong in this one.

*BTW, is there a member blogs section on this forum? I need to get some stuff out.
 

subwayrider

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Glad to hear it pleases someone. :^^:

Do you often ride the subway, subwayrider?! Where do you go?

My city has no subway, unfortunately. The name comes from my memories of the times I've visited NYC. The subway is used by millions every day. You can get on one day, experience a powerful love-at-first-sight experience, not do anything about it, watch her get off at her stop with an overwhelming feeling of loss and longing deep within you... and then never see her again, even if you continue taking the same line every day.

The reason I like it is because "subwayrider" is synonymous with "anonymous," and it's that same anonymity I feel on these online forums. The people here live far, far away and do not know, will probably never know, me. So I am free to expose the sides of myself I would not show to those in my real life without fear of being judged a certain way then after.

It's the other way around, at least with Ni-Te. Ni comes to a conclusion and Te scrounges for evidence to back it up. I'm saying that external evidence does not precede the intuitive grasp and perceived certitude of Ni conclusions...which is why INTJs may come across as arrogant jagoffs.

In an ESTJ, who also prominently uses Te, I would contend that the external evidence does indeed precede reasoning, because of the dissimilar position of Te in ESTJs and INTJs. Whether an ESTJ or ENTJ, Te reasoning comes first, then Si or Ni back up those conclusions and arrange them into larger folders.

Right. The order of the functions matters. As I often end up doing, I was operating in some theoretical universe where a person's or an entity's entire repertoire of functions could consist only of Te. How crazy would that be? The closest you will ever get to that is a dominant function that is not adequately balanced with the other three. But, you know, even the auxiliary and the tertiary, in the right moments, can appear to be the person's dominant, unfiltered by those before it in the stack. So I would argue there are times when the INTJ's, and even the ENFP's, Te works seemingly much like the ETJ's. There were times when I even seemed ESTP-- and not in shadow mode. These times are admittedly rare and fleeting, however.

The Ni-doorslam is worse. :D

Ah. I've had to do that many times in my life. The last time was with an indecisive ENFP who was driving me Feeler-crazy not being able to make up her mind whether she wanted to be close with me or not. To us, it's a necessary defense mechanism we use so that we don't get hurt anymore. In P fashion, she, for her part, left things open between us-- because she still showed signs of interest-- but of course it's nearly impossible to get past that doorslam.

Does the mechanism seem weird to you guys? Does it hurt?
 

kora

Omg wow imo
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The reason I like it is because "subwayrider" is synonymous with "anonymous," and it's that same anonymity I feel on these online forums. The people here live far, far away and do not know, will probably never know, me. So I am free to expose the sides of myself I would not show to those in my real life without fear of being judged a certain way then after.

In a way, we're going to get to know you better than anyone you know irl then :D

Welcome. I'm Higs, nice to meet you.
 

subwayrider

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In a way, we're going to get to know you better than anyone you know irl then :D

Welcome. I'm Higs, nice to meet you.

Thanks. And you're exactly right. It's as if we're all riding the same subway train, sitting close to each other, taking in each others' appearances and mannerisms and scents, breathing the same air, maybe even holding lengthy discourse i.e. becoming quite intimate. And yet we don't know each others' names, where we come from, where we get off. So we remain anonymous in that sense. I always found the concept interesting.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
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My city has no subway, unfortunately. The name comes from my memories of the times I've visited NYC. The subway is used by millions every day. You can get on one day, experience a powerful love-at-first-sight experience, not do anything about it, watch her get off at her stop with an overwhelming feeling of loss and longing deep within you... and then never see her again, even if you continue taking the same line every day.

The reason I like it is because "subwayrider" is synonymous with "anonymous," and it's that same anonymity I feel on these online forums. The people here live far, far away and do not know, will probably never know, me. So I am free to expose the sides of myself I would not show to those in my real life without fear of being judged a certain way then after.



Right. The order of the functions matters. As I often end up doing, I was operating in some theoretical universe where a person's or an entity's entire repertoire of functions could consist only of Te. How crazy would that be? The closest you will ever get to that is a dominant function that is not adequately balanced with the other three. But, you know, even the auxiliary and the tertiary, in the right moments, can appear to be the person's dominant, unfiltered by those before it in the stack. So I would argue there are times when the INTJ's, and even the ENFP's, Te works seemingly much like the ETJ's. There were times when I even seemed ESTP-- and not in shadow mode. These times are admittedly rare and fleeting, however.



Ah. I've had to do that many times in my life. The last time was with an indecisive ENFP who was driving me Feeler-crazy not being able to make up her mind whether she wanted to be close with me or not. To us, it's a necessary defense mechanism we use so that we don't get hurt anymore. In P fashion, she, for her part, left things open between us-- because she still showed signs of interest-- but of course it's nearly impossible to get past that doorslam.

Does the mechanism seem weird to you guys? Does it hurt?

I'll tentatively hypothesize (no data to back me up, so please don't eat my limbs):

A Ni-Fe burst straight to the heart should put an INTP in the psych-ward if delivered at close range and before the INTP can react: the inferior function is vulnerable. I, for example, have Fe wounds from a girl having a crush on me for years, becoming my best friend in school, and then revealing her feelings to me in the worst way possible: face to face, in the hall, in one sentence. I was reeling for days, and the memory still haunts me.

Moreover, the Ni aspect makes the effect even worse because what seems immediately apparent to you, and therefore something that anyone and everyone should understand without explanation, is like the ramblings of a lunatic to us. The decision to shut us out would be, to the INTP, the definition of Absurdity. In one fell swoop, you demand a snap decision and then scathe our inferior function without too much logic and reason behind it. Worse still, the blast and fallot from these sorts of explosions are precisely why INTP's create their giant logical models: we must shield Fe!

To compare, imagine if an ISFP had a meltdown and wrote the hate-song of the century about you. While the other types might laugh out loud at this explosion, your Se would scream in pain, and your Fe would be baffled by Fi's high place in the art. The same is true for INTP's facing INFJ doorslams: INTP's use their iNtuition often, but not all the time, and their Fe isn't built to take hits.

Again, I wrote this entire thing using Ne assisted by Ti-Si for logic checks, so please don't eat my face: this in no way represents my most carefully researched and final opinion on the subject. I just threw it up here to see if it sticks, and if it does, then I'll save it to my memory.

Now, regarding my story...

*puts sunglasses on* LET THE 'SHIPPING BEGIN! *realizes that you're watching and might have no clue about what just happened* *removes sunglasses with a sheepish grin, scratches back of head* Heh-heh...

...Well, you see, subwayrider, there comes a time in every story's life where the readers begin to have certain... feelings about the romantic arcs of its characters. You know, warm and fuzzy feelings whenever the thought of two characters being together comes up? Wanting two characters to have a relationship is fittingly called 'shipping, and its appearance marks the beginning of a story's rise from unknown quantity to something better entrenched in the imaginations of its readers. For an author, therefore, seeing 'shipping among those who read his story can be quite rewarding because it shows that they like the characters!

So... that's why I shouted. :) As for bringing John back (or Jane, whichever fits for the next new poster) and having him/her romance the reader, I won't say what'll happen with that just yet.

-Duxwing
 

Cavallier

Oh damn.
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I think you both Dux and Subway would enjoy our Poetry Handmade and Blogging section under the Inner Sanctum area. Maybe you even be willing to dust off the shelves while you're there.
 

Matt3737

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Ewww....gross. An INF. Icky! ;P
 

subwayrider

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I'll tentatively hypothesize (no data to back me up, so please don't eat my limbs):

A Ni-Fe burst straight to the heart should put an INTP in the psych-ward if delivered at close range and before the INTP can react: the inferior function is vulnerable. I, for example, have Fe wounds from a girl having a crush on me for years, becoming my best friend in school, and then revealing her feelings to me in the worst way possible: face to face, in the hall, in one sentence. I was reeling for days, and the memory still haunts me.

This is to be expected, but: I don't understand. It's not like you were the one whose feelings were at stake. She's the one who risked embarrassment and rejection. Is it because you didn't want to hurt her? You would feel her pain like it was yours? Such is the nature of Fe. I would have politely rejected her if I didn't like her; I would have been so happy then and there if I had.

Moreover, the Ni aspect makes the effect even worse because what seems immediately apparent to you, and therefore something that anyone and everyone should understand without explanation, is like the ramblings of a lunatic to us. The decision to shut us out would be, to the INTP, the definition of Absurdity. In one fell swoop, you demand a snap decision and then scathe our inferior function without too much logic and reason behind it. Worse still, the blast and fallout from these sorts of explosions are precisely why INTP's create their giant logical models: we must shield Fe!

Good insight. I think I read somewhere that everyone's Ni is different. I think it is a bit easier to see the logic behind an INTJ's statements than those behind an INFJ's-- especially if the INFJ has not developed Ti. INFJs without Ti are the equivalent of crazies.

I see a bit of a parallel. I spend a lot of my timing shielding myself from sensory temptation, such as drugs and sex-- which I historically have problems with. Not just that, but part of Se entails accepting the world as you perceive it with your senses-- as it is. I'm constantly suppressing in particular this function of the function because it's a sin to my Ni-born, Fe-fed, idealism.

To compare, imagine if an ISFP had a meltdown and wrote the hate-song of the century about you. While the other types might laugh out loud at this explosion, your Se would scream in pain, and your Fe would be baffled by Fi's high place in the art. The same is true for INTP's facing INFJ doorslams: INTP's use their iNtuition often, but not all the time, and their Fe isn't built to take hits.

I'm afraid I don't see why my Se would scream in pain.

I agree with the rest, though-- especially the Fi part. I get that all the time.

Again, I wrote this entire thing using Ne assisted by Ti-Si for logic checks, so please don't eat my face: this in no way represents my most carefully researched and final opinion on the subject. I just threw it up here to see if it sticks, and if it does, then I'll save it to my memory.

Lol. Relax, I'm built for taking care of other people's feelings. :D


...Well, you see, subwayrider, there comes a time in every story's life where the readers begin to have certain... feelings about the romantic arcs of its characters. You know, warm and fuzzy feelings whenever the thought of two characters being together comes up? Wanting two characters to have a relationship is fittingly called 'shipping, and its appearance marks the beginning of a story's rise from unknown quantity to something better entrenched in the imaginations of its readers. For an author, therefore, seeing 'shipping among those who read his story can be quite rewarding because it shows that they like the characters!

So... that's why I shouted. :) As for bringing John back (or Jane, whichever fits for the next new poster) and having him/her romance the reader, I won't say what'll happen with that just yet.

-Duxwing

OK. The only problem I'm foreseeing is that the story will become even longer unless you take big chunks of it out and don't make the romance part very long. If I might make a suggestion: leave his/her reappearance for very close to the end, and you can then end the story with them going off together to do whatever they're going to do.
 

Matt3737

INFJ
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You couldn't at the very least post a different avatar?!

:P


Naw, I like being predictable and recognizable as far as cross-forum internet anonymity is concerned. =)

Or you might say I'm getting old and set in my ways. ;)
 

Duxwing

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This is to be expected, but: I don't understand. It's not like you were the one whose feelings were at stake. She's the one who risked embarrassment and rejection. Is it because you didn't want to hurt her? You would feel her pain like it was yours? Such is the nature of Fe. I would have politely rejected her if I didn't like her; I would have been so happy then and there if I had.

Long, regretful, and sad explanation inbound! Open the spoiler if you dare.

During middle school, she was my next-best friend in a school where I was alone: no real friends, no real connections apart from an ISTP that I'd known since I was sentient. Via e-mail, she and I told each other everything; our troubles, our successes, everything. She'd complain about her up-tight parents and I'd regale her with heroic tales of sailing and flight. She was an ISFP, I was an INTP. I provided the logic, and she provided the crazy. Being around her, I felt like I could be myself. Everywhere else, I had to pretend to an extent: Ne helped out a lot, but I was still the stoic, logical pariah whose occasional snide remark hit people like a low-orbit ion cannon. Nowhere else could I be utterly logical without reprisal. She was my next-best friend in a school where I was alone.

Yet she was shy, very shy. I had to use all my wits just to get her to sit next to me for the first time (the key was walking so slowly that she'd follow). I had to pry her open like a can with inch-thick walls, but once open, she was completely fine. And so was I. I could let my Ne-cloaking shield down, forget my Si's cries for propriety, and just give her Ti. No-one else appreciated my logic. No-one else even understood logic, mine or otherwise. Yet she listened, understood, and cared. Not even my parents could match that-- especially during my conversion to atheism.

So we got close. I looked forward to her e-mails, I looked forward to seeing her. I had something and someone to look forward to! Someone to think of, someone to be around. For me, an INTP who's had trouble finding friends, the experience was tremendous. So, Fe being Fe, I got attached to her. I didn't want to see her get hurt (not like that, I don't have those issues *shudders at thought*) or leave me. Her pain was, in a way, my pain. I was frustrated when her parents made her do a book of algebra problems over the summer even though her grades were stellar. So yes, the empathetic link was established. Stupid Fe! Stupid illogic! Stupid attachment!

Then came high school, and we grew apart. I was doing better, feeling better, and being better. I'd come out of the crucible alive. Yet I missed her in a way. On the other hand, I was kinda too lazy and nervous to restart the e-mail chain, which had simply fallen apart. At this point I figured that our time together was over, that she'd be a fond memory and a friend if I needed one so desperately that I'd be willing to bear the heat of "Do you like her?" and "Are you two dating?". So everything was going fine and dandy, the ship was sinking smoothly, and then it all came tumbling down.

In the moment that she asked me to go to the dance, I'd realized that everything that I'd had with her had been a lie. She'd wanted more than just friendship. She wanted hugs and kisses and dates and flowers and sappy love notes slipped into lockers between classes. I didn't. I wasn't ready for that kind of commitment (think of the break-up!) or emotional strain. Moreover, her painful shyness made me feel like I, being the more extroverted of the two of us, bore some responsibility in making sure that nothing odd would develop between us-- she might not voice her problem until it couldn't be solved by words. I cared about her. BIG MISTAKE, I know.

So then I realized that I'd violated that perceived responsibility not to let something like this happen. In an instant, I'd realized that she'd tried to send subtle signals all along and that I'd been blissfully ignorant of them. Everyone in my high-school grade but me knew about her crush. Now, at this point, you might be thinking: Duxwing is either in love and won't admit it or is protective (creepy) or is lying about how this story went down. In a trice, I will dispel your doubts about the last item on that list. That girl was UGLY. I mean ugly like an APE. She was Asian (no problem with that-- I'm no bigot and would be all over her if not for the next parts) with white skin, yellow-orange hair, buck teeth, and BO. Since the physical appearance of my friends doesn't matter to me, I had just tried not to look at her too closely lest I taste my lunch a second time.

Yet with romance, things are different. I could write flowery poetry for her and admire her from afar like a knight errant did for his lady, but she likely wanted to hold hands, hug, kiss, and slow-dance. I would literally want to puke if I did that with her. She's too darn UGLY. I just wish that she weren't so horrendously revolting. So, with a heavy heart, I said the worst thing that I could, "I don't know".

So I feel like I should have known, like I should have done something other than being an emotional blockhead. I can still see her running down the hallway, arms clutched over her chest, the white soles of her shoes flashing beneath the fluorescent lights. I could tell that she'd been hurt, and that made me hurt, too. She was one of the few people who's fate I cared about to any significant degree. Worst of all, from what I can tell, it had been love at first sight.

Good insight. I think I read somewhere that everyone's Ni is different. I think it is a bit easier to see the logic behind an INTJ's statements than those behind an INFJ's-- especially if the INFJ has not developed Ti. INFJs without Ti are the equivalent of crazies.

Did you get the INFJ joke in my story, then?

I see a bit of a parallel. I spend a lot of my timing shielding myself from sensory temptation, such as drugs and sex-- which I historically have problems with. Not just that, but part of Se entails accepting the world as you perceive it with your senses-- as it is. I'm constantly suppressing in particular this function of the function because it's a sin to my Ni-born, Fe-fed, idealism.

I'm afraid I don't see why my Se would scream in pain.

Hence the 'hypothesis'. :D The idea was purely one of functions: ISFP is Fi Se Ni Te, so I figured that they could use Se to hurt you like you can use Fe to hurt us. I'm glad to see the light now! So imagine instead that the ISFP gave you bad LSD and then tattooed hate-poetry on your forearms while you were out.

I agree with the rest, though-- especially the Fi part. I get that all the time.

Lol. Relax, I'm built for taking care of other people's feelings. :D

The empathy is strong in this one. :) We can always use some help in defusing emotional time-bombs. Moreover, we'll be glad to teach you the ways of logic; after all, INTP's aren't called "The Thinkers" for nothing!

OK. The only problem I'm foreseeing is that the story will become even longer unless you take big chunks of it out and don't make the romance part very long. If I might make a suggestion: leave his/her reappearance for very close to the end, and you can then end the story with them going off together to do whatever they're going to do.

Short? Short? I want my tale to be looooong!

Overall, I think that you'll fit right in.

-Duxwing
 

loveofreason

echoes through time
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@loveofreason

Maybe cough syrup got you there sooner...but you wouldn't remember that...

Maybe, maybe my dear girl... I forget alot of things these days. But I can never forget you - you or those long winter nights between us. You, me ...and those glycerine suppositories. :hearts:

For the record, loveofreason's words seem to flow out of him/her the way a stereotypical INFJ's would. He/she even has an avy of two people hugging. The NF is strong in this one.

Word stuff I have no explanation for except to say it's just another actor I let speak, yet comprises an essential thing that emerges through text - a proxy for the mute. That might be common for INFJs. Might be common for any consciousness.

The avatar on the other hand; that's a considered attempt to break down my own aversion to humanity and surrender to affection. Took me years to even stomach identifying with a humanoid avatar, let alone an image of (almost) human affection.

Snafu, it seems, has no such problem.
:elephant:
 

subwayrider

INTP wannabe
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I read the story. So terrible!

I... have become very wary of letting anyone get close to me that way for some time now. I realize people act out of self-interest more than selflessness... I understand the naiveté about her feelings. Perhaps your own interests clouded your judgment.

I'm a 4w5 so I'm pretty reclusive. It's the w5 that makes me seem like you guys, but... I do not want to be responsible for hurting anyone that way EVER. Fe makes us feel responsible for the feelings of others and I understand why you were hurting so much over it now. I know what it feels like-- not like that, though. I would never be so desperate for the pain I know would ensue. I do not wish it on anyone. Unfortunately, I've found the only way to avoid experiencing or administering that kind of torment (because TBH I'm considered fairly attractive) is to cut myself off from people. It's sad, but I find people too prone to drama to remain in any social circles. It's the best way for me to live, I've decided. People are too much animals to expect orderly and logical behavior.

Thanks for sharing.
 

subwayrider

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Word stuff I have no explanation for except to say it's just another actor I let speak, yet comprises an essential thing that emerges through text - a proxy for the mute.

I see.

I can pass for INTP.

Yet, I'm staunchly Fe-Se in comfortable social interactions. A bit like an ESTP. ;)
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
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I read the story. So terrible!

I... have become very wary of letting anyone get close to me that way for some time now. I realize people act out of self-interest more than selflessness... I understand the naiveté about her feelings. Perhaps your own interests clouded your judgment.

I'm a 4w5 so I'm pretty reclusive. It's the w5 that makes me seem like you guys, but... I do not want to be responsible for hurting anyone that way EVER. Fe makes us feel responsible for the feelings of others and I understand why you were hurting so much over it now. I know what it feels like-- not like that, though. I would never be so desperate for the pain I know would ensue. I do not wish it on anyone. Unfortunately, I've found the only way to avoid experiencing or administering that kind of torment (because TBH I'm considered fairly attractive) is to cut myself off from people. It's sad, but I find people too prone to drama to remain in any social circles. It's the best way for me to live, I've decided. People are too much animals to expect orderly and logical behavior.

Thanks for sharing.

I've come to the same sad conclusion. I just wish that we didn't have hearts of darkness. I have one, you have one, we all bear the ineffacable stain. The power games played out as alpha-types vie for power, the boundless, pitiless cruelty of humor, the absurd mating procedures, we're all guilty of engaging in each. Yet could we rise above such things? Could we ever make our world, the world of sand and steel, rock and bone, as soft and bright as the world that we can create for ourselves on this forum?

Yet there is no such thing as selflessness: Altruists see themselves either as white knights or servants. We must be content in knowing that those who help us are partially engaged in a fantasy world wherein they get to be the hero or serve their master, and that we, to different degrees, fulfill the same conditions when we act as altruists. But, of course, is there anything wrong in wanting to be a hero?

Finally, I know from personal experience that fulfilling relationships are possible: I would love that ugly girl if she weren't so ugly, I've close friends from my seafaring trips, and my ISTP friend, although somewhat an alpha, could be very stimulating. So we can learn to love and trust each other; we just need to find the right people to connect to. Albeit, the road to friendship can be rocky and dangerous, but I think that we must acknowledge how much we help others along the way. I bet that I gave that ISFP girl a good two-and-a-half if not three or more years of friendship and crushing, so there was a silver lining to even that tremendous thundercloud. I bet that we can do it, but not with everyone, so take heart, O lonely traveler of the underground, and see the positive alongside the negative.

Moreover, do you think that I should apologize to her for not having noticed and being so unwittingly hurtful?

-Duxwing
 

subwayrider

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Duxwing, I will reply to the rest of the post later, but I had a feeling the matter of the friend of yours has perhaps been, from the back of your mind, causing some unrest. I also assume you ask me because I'm INFJ? :D

Not very long ago, I found myself troubled by feelings of guilt over someone I'd hurt. I would go over and over it in my head and would at times get no rest because of it. I was scared to confront this person, because I knew that, in fairness, they should have been angry with me, hated me. For six months I let that stop me. For six months I let the guilt eat away at me.

Then, one day, I decided I needed to do it, if only for me. If only to stop feeling that guilt and for the feeling of knowing that I had done my best to right the wrong. I talked to her and... she wasn't angry at all. She accepted my apology and I felt instantly better. She and I are friends, again. I no longer carry that burden.

What you did isn't so bad, after all. It's not like you killed her family. But, if it's bothering you and weighing you down, I would recommend talking to her about it. It's OK to do it primarily for yourself.
 

subwayrider

INTP wannabe
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^lol, perfect explaination on the P.

Want to know DEEP DOWN what we are as INTPs, here ya go

I cannot stress enough how excellent that article is.

I might be ready to join the INTP clan from the sheer resonance the description had with me, but alas I have other factors to consider. The constant self-doubt, the quest for truth, the hatred of phoniness, the tendency to melancholy, the vulnerability of the emotions-- all centerpieces of my own life. I've noticed many of you have a tendency to self-hatred and the ensuing low self-esteem, which I understand perfectly. Not feeling smart enough seems a thing among many of you. A lack of certainty in your ideas is in the air. Quite the contrast to the overconfident INTJ, whom I can't seem to relate to nearly as well.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
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Duxwing, I will reply to the rest of the post later, but I had a feeling the matter of the friend of yours has perhaps been, from the back of your mind, causing some unrest. I also assume you ask me because I'm INFJ? :D

Ehh, more or less. :D I'm so clueless with Fe that I don't exactly trust myself to use it responsibly. Hence, I went to someone with some more, but not too much more: too much Fe and I ride the edge of consciousness (as I learned from nearly passing out while reading a very, very cute story a while ago). On the other hand, you came to us for logic-- that's why I said that there was trade between the INTP and INFJ castles.

Not very long ago, I found myself troubled by feelings of guilt over someone I'd hurt. I would go over and over it in my head and would at times get no rest because of it. I was scared to confront this person, because I knew that, in fairness, they should have been angry with me, hated me. For six months I let that stop me. For six months I let the guilt eat away at me.

Then, one day, I decided I needed to do it, if only for me. If only to stop feeling that guilt and for the feeling of knowing that I had done my best to right the wrong. I talked to her and... she wasn't angry at all. She accepted my apology and I felt instantly better. She and I are friends, again. I no longer carry that burden.

What you did isn't so bad, after all. It's not like you killed her family. But, if it's bothering you and weighing you down, I would recommend talking to her about it. It's OK to do it primarily for yourself.

You sound... oddly detached in describing this story.... almost as if you were shutting something out. Is this the fabled Ni-doorslam, but performed on your own feelings? The tone smacks of defense mechanism, but then again, I didn't notice a huge crush for years, so I'm very likely wrong. But then again... (ah, the joys of being an INTP: Ne keeps prodding you to edit, edit, and edit your theories some more).

Regarding the story itself, high-five! You lived to tell the tale, dude (well, I'm almost certain that you're a dude, but then again...) and can share your wisdom with others. :)

So it's settled, then. I'll summon my will and... hmmm... in all my theorizing about the ethics of belated reply I've noticed the necessity of speaking to her in private and at length in order to properly apologize and receive a reply.

From what you know about Fe, could you tell me which of the following would work best?

-->Asking her to meet me in the hallway at lunchtime. I'll need nerves of steel, but it could provide me with up to twenty minutes of uninterrupted conversation.

-->Ask for her e-mail or phone number with the explicit intention of apologizing. I'll need nerves of steel and lots of luck, but my reward is potentially unlimited time.

-->Use the few seconds before class to shoot in a few lines of "I'm not very good with feelings, so...". This requires only a bit of nerve, but it could send unwanted ripples through the grapevine-- I don't want this to turn into Blackhawk Down.

-->Arrange contact via her friends. She'll see this coming from a mile away, and the friend will be creeped out, but it could bring me back into their good graces if this crush story had been a fixture of their middle school socialization: I, of course, would have been the villain after she told me, and an apology might ease her and their frustration, too. I gave her the Ti-Fe freezer burn after she'd told me, you see.

-->Anything else that you can think of.

-Duxwing
 

subwayrider

INTP wannabe
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From what you know about Fe, could you tell me which of the following would work best?

-->Asking her to meet me in the hallway at lunchtime. I'll need nerves of steel, but it could provide me with up to twenty minutes of uninterrupted conversation.

-->Ask for her e-mail or phone number with the explicit intention of apologizing. I'll need nerves of steel and lots of luck, but my reward is potentially unlimited time.

-->Use the few seconds before class to shoot in a few lines of "I'm not very good with feelings, so...". This requires only a bit of nerve, but it could send unwanted ripples through the grapevine-- I don't want this to turn into Blackhawk Down.

-->Arrange contact via her friends. She'll see this coming from a mile away, and the friend will be creeped out, but it could bring me back into their good graces if this crush story had been a fixture of their middle school socialization: I, of course, would have been the villain after she told me, and an apology might ease her and their frustration, too. I gave her the Ti-Fe freezer burn after she'd told me, you see.

-->Anything else that you can think of.

-Duxwing

@Duxwing

I think the best way to do it would be the over the phone. Doing it over the phone is less terrifying than doing it face-to-face, where you might end up saying or doing something unintended for the sheer anxiety. E-mail is too detached and cold for something coming so much from the heart. The telephone is an excellent compromise.

I would go up to her during the precise time when you have very little time and say something along the lines of: "I'd like to talk later today. Could I have your phone number?" You'll have the perfect excuse for not having to say it then and there. She will have to oblige.

So, you're in high school, then?
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
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@Duxwing

I think the best way to do it would be the over the phone. Doing it over the phone is less terrifying than doing it face-to-face, where you might end up saying or doing something unintended for the sheer anxiety. E-mail is too detached and cold for something coming so much from the heart. The telephone is an excellent compromise.

I would go up to her during the precise time when you have very little time and say something along the lines of: "I'd like to talk later today. Could I have your phone number?" You'll have the perfect excuse for not having to say it then and there. She will have to oblige.

So, you're in high school, then?

Indeed. You can compare me to Dante in Comedia: where elementary school was my mortal life and middle school was Inferno, I am now in Purgatorio. The atmosphere here is quiet but sad, with a sense of passing through pervading it. Perhaps, if I self-actualize, I can create my own, modest version of Paradiso once I've left. Note that I am irreligious and the comparison, although something that I could identify with at first, is now rather jarring from my perspective: I look for no God.

Talking with you is quite different, I've noticed. The words that I use flow more freely, in a way. I think that my Ne is unconsciously emulating your style; normally, I use far more "small words," like as, if, but, not, then, to, and here-- perhaps to make my logic cutting and precise. Conversely, when I talk to you, I use fewer such words and instead string larger ones together in longer chains. Interesting. :cat:

As for asking her for her number, *gulp* I hope that you're right.

-Duxwing
 

subwayrider

INTP wannabe
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Talking with you is quite different, I've noticed. The words that I use flow more freely, in a way. I think that my Ne is unconsciously emulating your style; normally, I use far more "small words," like as, if, but, not, then, to, and here-- perhaps to make my logic cutting and precise. Conversely, when I talk to you, I use fewer such words and instead string larger ones together in longer chains. Interesting. :cat:

As for asking her for her number, *gulp* I hope that you're right.

-Duxwing

You're really quite brilliant for your age. I can only imagine what you'll grow up to be.

As to the girl issue: of course I'm right. :D

It'll work out. Just go through with it or you'll have no peace! You may never see her again after you graduate. You'll have to live with that, albeit small, thorn lodged in your conscience.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
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You're really quite brilliant for your age. I can only imagine what you'll grow up to be.

Beep, boop, Fe overload! Fe overload! Transitioning to emergency systems... ... ... transition complete! Engaging Fe-response: *hug*

As to the girl issue: of course I'm right. :D

It'll work out. Just go through with it or you'll have no peace! You may never see her again after you graduate. You'll have to live with that, albeit small, thorn lodged in your conscience.

Indeed, I can't leave this thorn in my conscience forever. I just hope that she doesn't cry or hang up.

-Duxwing
 
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