First post

[chicklin]

So, a door opened up for me today. Took an MBTI test for the first time and figured out who I was...and that there were a bunch of people out there just like me (well, similar, anyway). Wow. I've been reading up on INTP traits for the last hour and it's almost freakish how well they describe me.

So, I've had a couple things that have been bothering me:

1. I've always been a little bit "off" but I have sort of conformed over the years to operate in a world that I don't feel like I fit into very well. I'm 33, a sr. manager (about to be an exec) at a large-ish, highly successful IT company. It's a great place to work and my career has progressed rapidly. BUT, I feel like I am completely different from all of my peers that are in similar leadership positions and I'm sort of concerned that I've gone down a path that may not be good for me in the long run. Most of my peers are much more structured, driven and "managerial", so to speak. I can't focus on anything for more than about 30 minutes and I'm constantly thinking and discussing in much more abstract terms. Figuring out why this is today I think might be a good first step to getting this under control and continuing to be successful "my way" rather than the expected, corporate way.

2. Building on #1, I feel that, while my brain still operates in an INTP way for the most part, I've almost completely lost my creativity and child-like wonderment/curiosity that the profile describes. It's like it's still there deep down inside but it's being repressed by work, marriage, kids, responsibilities, etc. As a kid, I was the prototypical young Einstein, very aloof, curious, constantly reading, learning, experimenting, etc. That has faded significantly and it drives me nuts. I want to embrace my inner INTP-ness. I'd be interested to hear some suggestions on how to get that back.

3. My marriage....this is a tough one. I have a wonderful wife and two exceptional kids (5 and 4). BUT...she is an ESFJ doesn't get me. Probably never will. It is very frustrating. As is typical, I have a lot of hobbies and rotate around through those frequently and I think it drives her nuts and she wonders why I don't want to sit on the couch and cuddle. Or go to dinner parties with her friends. Or hold hands in public...or at all. etc. Being an introvert, I am prepared to spend the next 50 years keeping my emotions bottled up regarding this, but that seems unhealthy, to say the least. I suspect this situation has a lot to do with #2 above, as well. Thoughts?


I'm looking forward to reading and contributing here. This is already fairly cathartic and I'm hoping to get back on the right track.

 

[TimeAsylums]

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she is an ESFJ

AHAHAHAHAHAAH

Welcome to the forum

 

[Cherry Cola]

You should get someone to act as a mediator (I'm supposing you'd weird her out or get her angry if you try to explain things directly to her, so have someone who you know your wife trusts and finds reasonable but who still understands you try to give her a few pointers), do it subtly and let it take the time it takes (even if it takes years) and you and your wife might come to "get" each other a lot better. That is supposing such a potential mediator exists. Else there's always counseling :P

the work related issues sounds like the kind of thing architect is good at giving advise on :O

 

[Duxwing]

So, a door opened up for me today. Took an MBTI test for the first time and figured out who I was...and that there were a bunch of people out there just like me (well, similar, anyway). Wow. I've been reading up on INTP traits for the last hour and it's almost freakish how well they describe me.

So, I've had a couple things that have been bothering me:

1. I've always been a little bit "off" but I have sort of conformed over the years to operate in a world that I don't feel like I fit into very well. I'm 33, a sr. manager (about to be an exec) at a large-ish, highly successful IT company. It's a great place to work and my career has progressed rapidly. BUT, I feel like I am completely different from all of my peers that are in similar leadership positions and I'm sort of concerned that I've gone down a path that may not be good for me in the long run. Most of my peers are much more structured, driven and "managerial", so to speak. I can't focus on anything for more than about 30 minutes and I'm constantly thinking and discussing in much more abstract terms. Figuring out why this is today I think might be a good first step to getting this under control and continuing to be successful "my way" rather than the expected, corporate way.

2. Building on #1, I feel that, while my brain still operates in an INTP way for the most part, I've almost completely lost my creativity and child-like wonderment/curiosity that the profile describes. It's like it's still there deep down inside but it's being repressed by work, marriage, kids, responsibilities, etc. As a kid, I was the prototypical young Einstein, very aloof, curious, constantly reading, learning, experimenting, etc. That has faded significantly and it drives me nuts. I want to embrace my inner INTP-ness. I'd be interested to hear some suggestions on how to get that back.

3. My marriage....this is a tough one. I have a wonderful wife and two exceptional kids (5 and 4). BUT...she is an ESFJ doesn't get me. Probably never will. It is very frustrating. As is typical, I have a lot of hobbies and rotate around through those frequently and I think it drives her nuts and she wonders why I don't want to sit on the couch and cuddle. Or go to dinner parties with her friends. Or hold hands in public...or at all. etc. Being an introvert, I am prepared to spend the next 50 years keeping my emotions bottled up regarding this, but that seems unhealthy, to say the least. I suspect this situation has a lot to do with #2 above, as well. Thoughts?


I'm looking forward to reading and contributing here. This is already fairly cathartic and I'm hoping to get back on the right track.

Welcome! I'm glad that you're seeking help. If you want to change careers, then find something that you're passionate about: a good way to start looking is to examine your past. Find what you always did anyway; for Architect, a user here, that thing was computers. He always managed to bring computers into whatever he did, and he never noticed that he did so until his wife told him. He now happily works as a programming architect. That thing, however, may be different for you; keep searching!

Tell your wife how you feel about your thinking that she doesn't understand you and ask that the two of you work to improve that understanding, perhaps by suggesting going to a marriage counselor. If she refuses to work, then you need to sit down and ask yourself a very hard question, "Do I want to stay with someone who refuses to try to understand me but is also the mother of my children?". Your kids are young enough that a divorce, if unavoidable, will be a distant memory when they grow up; ergo, don't be frightened of removing yourself if you think it best. Conversely, if she agrees, then keep up your end of the bargain and see that she holds up hers: if everything goes well, then she will understand you, and if you realize that she wants to understand you but cannot, then ask yourself the aforementioned very hard question with that knowledge in mind.

You likely face a long series of difficult struggles, but you are among comrades here. Do not adapt your life to your world but rather adapt your world to your life, and beware large, long-term commitments: Ti, Ne, and Si are bulwarks against the tricks of your inferior Fe--use them, and use them well.

-Duxwing

 

[Pyropyro]

Welcome chicklin!

Well I can't help you with 1 or 3. There are more mature members here that can help you out. but I'll try working with #2.

I think you have a bad case of suppressed Extraverted Intuition (Ne). That's most of where our childlikeness and will to discover stuff resides. Ne would be easily exercised by engaging in unfamiliar (but hopefully safe) activities. In my case, it was hiking and writing. I'm thinking of learning a language or an instrument in the future too.

Anyways, your Introverted Thinking (Ti), the logical and judging part, will think these activities as non-sense. However, these activities will actually improve it's judging and understading skills by providing it with more data to sift on. Just think about it. A computer with Word, PowerPoint and Excel is better for office work compared to a machine with just Wordpad.

 

[chicklin]

Well, I didn't mean to give the impression that we have a bad relationship or anything. That's not the case, we get along just fine, but I do sometimes feel like there's a piece missing. We just have very different personalities and sometimes it seems like we're speaking completely different languages. Coming across this Meyers-Briggs stuff has helped me understand why. I always sort of knew why, but seeing it defined and explained helps a lot.

 

[cynibon]

So, a door opened up for me today. Took an MBTI test for the first time and figured out who I was...and that there were a bunch of people out there just like me (well, similar, anyway). Wow. I've been reading up on INTP traits for the last hour and it's almost freakish how well they describe me.

Remember, MBTI is only a perspective. One of many. I think it would be a mistake to try to shoehorn your life into a single perspective. But you're probably aware of that.

So, I've had a couple things that have been bothering me:

Only a couple. You're winning!

1. I've always been a little bit "off" but I have sort of conformed over the years to operate in a world that I don't feel like I fit into very well. I'm 33, a sr. manager (about to be an exec) at a large-ish, highly successful IT company. It's a great place to work and my career has progressed rapidly. BUT, I feel like I am completely different from all of my peers that are in similar leadership positions and I'm sort of concerned that I've gone down a path that may not be good for me in the long run. Most of my peers are much more structured, driven and "managerial", so to speak. I can't focus on anything for more than about 30 minutes and I'm constantly thinking and discussing in much more abstract terms. Figuring out why this is today I think might be a good first step to getting this under control and continuing to be successful "my way" rather than the expected, corporate way.

Not surprising. Managers are people responsible for 'results', so seeking closure is a good trait to have. J not P. Why would you think it 'may not be good for me'? There must be some reasons, even if they're only vague foreboding at this point. What would you consider 'getting this under control'? Changing yourself? Changing the system? How do you define 'continuing to be successful'? Advancing up the executive hierarchy? Making more money? Being happier and more satisfied with your life, both personal and work? Having more material possessions?

It seems the people who decide where you work are happy with who you are. You're even aware of it. Have you asked them if your different style is a problem? People are usually happy to guide others; they feel validated, among other things. There's some risk in doing this. They might suggest things you should do that just don't work for you, and if you refuse, you could jeopardize your situation, unless you handle it skilfully

2. Building on #1, I feel that, while my brain still operates in an INTP way for the most part, I've almost completely lost my creativity and child-like wonderment/curiosity that the profile describes. It's like it's still there deep down inside but it's being repressed by work, marriage, kids, responsibilities, etc. As a kid, I was the prototypical young Einstein, very aloof, curious, constantly reading, learning, experimenting, etc. That has faded significantly and it drives me nuts. I want to embrace my inner INTP-ness. I'd be interested to hear some suggestions on how to get that back.

You can allow it free rein in another part of your life. Not the most satisfactory, but better than nothing.

Or you can modify your work to be more in accord with this. Maybe start your own business.

I think you've run up against a hard fact of work life, though. The system wants us to be a cog, to fill a role. It wants you to be an intelligent robot, performing the functions it requires in order to function optimally. It can tolerate some variation, but will quash too much.

Being independently wealthy would be the best solution.

3. My marriage....this is a tough one. I have a wonderful wife and two exceptional kids (5 and 4). BUT...she is an ESFJ doesn't get me. Probably never will. It is very frustrating. As is typical, I have a lot of hobbies and rotate around through those frequently and I think it drives her nuts and she wonders why I don't want to sit on the couch and cuddle. Or go to dinner parties with her friends. Or hold hands in public...or at all. etc. Being an introvert, I am prepared to spend the next 50 years keeping my emotions bottled up regarding this, but that seems unhealthy, to say the least. I suspect this situation has a lot to do with #2 above, as well. Thoughts?

You took to heart that saying that opposites attract, didn't you? The truth is, we feel comfortable around people that are like us, we feel an affinity, a rapport. So I think you have to find common ground with your wife. Meeting points. Even if it is only fond exasperation for your differences. As a team, you've got all the bases covered, and if you can get that working, it will be awesome. Understanding, tolerance, and acceptance will be part of building that team. Just out of curiosity, do you think 'you get her'? Do you think you ever will? Touche. If you go read the 'know you're ESFJ' thread, does it give you any insight? Ideas for building bridges?

 

[chicklin]

Thank you, random Internet stranger, for your feedback. If I could e-mail you a cold beer, I would.

Remember, MBTI is only a perspective. One of many. I think it would be a mistake to try to shoehorn your life into a single perspective. But you're probably aware of that.

Yep. It just happened to be a very good fit for how I viewed myself already. Not the end-all be-all of personality assessments.

Not surprising. Managers are people responsible for 'results', so seeking closure is a good trait to have. J not P. Why would you think it 'may not be good for me'? There must be some reasons, even if they're only vague foreboding at this point. What would you consider 'getting this under control'? Changing yourself? Changing the system? How do you define 'continuing to be successful'? Advancing up the executive hierarchy? Making more money? Being happier and more satisfied with your life, both personal and work? Having more material possessions?

It seems the people who decide where you work are happy with who you are. You're even aware of it. Have you asked them if your different style is a problem? People are usually happy to guide others; they feel validated, among other things. There's some risk in doing this. They might suggest things you should do that just don't work for you, and if you refuse, you could jeopardize your situation, unless you handle it skilfully

So, where I was going with this was that my style is just a little different than the other execs around me. I think I work in a place where I can embrace that and do it my own way, but there will always be certain expectations of how to manage your area of the business.

As far as 'getting it under control', I think that's simply deciding how much I will embrace and how much I will change and then sticking with that going forward. In terms of my definition of success, it's not material possessions. Money is certainly an aspect, but really only to the point that I don't have to worry about it anymore. What I really want is to actually make a difference (I work in healthcare IT, so that aligns pretty well) and be viewed as a valuable contributor and leader. On the positive side, being in a leadership role, I can deal with more abstract concepts and leave implementation details to others. One of the things I've been pursuing. But, there is still a structured management component to it that I struggle with sometimes.

Being independently wealthy would be the best solution.

Yes

You took to heart that saying that opposites attract, didn't you? The truth is, we feel comfortable around people that are like us, we feel an affinity, a rapport. So I think you have to find common ground with your wife. Meeting points. Even if it is only fond exasperation for your differences. As a team, you've got all the bases covered, and if you can get that working, it will be awesome. Understanding, tolerance, and acceptance will be part of building that team. Just out of curiosity, do you think 'you get her'? Do you think you ever will? Touche. If you go read the 'know you're ESFJ' thread, does it give you any insight? Ideas for building bridges?

It's probably arrogant, but I do think I "get" her. It seems easy to understand, I just don't relate to it. I'm probably wrong, though Most of my friends are not INTP-type folks, either, so I think it might help to seek out some folks like that to exercise that part of my brain. I live in a college town, surely there are all sorts of them running around here (with their head down, mumbling to themselves).

 

[cynibon]

Thank you, random Internet stranger, for your feedback. If I could e-mail you a cold beer, I would.

Brrrp. Thanks.

I think I work in a place where I can embrace that and do it my own way, but there will always be certain expectations of how to manage your area of the business.

This is a truth. I think it has to do with human beings. Results matter, but appearances do too. Being part of the team, being *seen* to be part of the team, *conforming* to be part of the team.

As far as 'getting it under control', I think that's simply deciding how much I will embrace and how much I will change and then sticking with that going forward. In terms of my definition of success, it's not material possessions. Money is certainly an aspect, but really only to the point that I don't have to worry about it anymore. What I really want is to actually make a difference (I work in healthcare IT, so that aligns pretty well) and be viewed as a valuable contributor and leader. On the positive side, being in a leadership role, I can deal with more abstract concepts and leave implementation details to others. One of the things I've been pursuing. But, there is still a structured management component to it that I struggle with sometimes.

Not optimal, but it sounds like you've found a reasonably good fit. There are millions of workers who would envy you. I think you're the kind of person who strives for perfection, though, and so you chafe at the compromise you're making. Here's a management quote for you, 'It's the irritation that causes the oyster to make the pearl'. So embrace your problems, welcome them, get out there and make those pearls. Go get 'em, cowboy! Rah, rah! <laugh> Parodying all those management seminars.

It's probably arrogant, but I do think I "get" her. It seems easy to understand, I just don't relate to it. I'm probably wrong, though Most of my friends are not INTP-type folks, either, so I think it might help to seek out some folks like that to exercise that part of my brain. I live in a college town, surely there are all sorts of them running around here (with their head down, mumbling to themselves).

Understanding is part of 'getting' it, but part of it *is* relating. It's the difference between understanding what a set of high heels does to a foot by watching a woman walk in them, and walking in a set of high heels yourself. I will give you that you are probably ahead of her, in that she likely doesn't understand you because that isn't how she apprehends the world. It's harder for her to 'try you on'. There was a movie where a guy and a girl switched bodies, and went through a day. Like that. Or 'Becoming Alien' by Rebecca Orr, a book that when I read it gave me that sense of being other, of stepping outside myself.

And look at it this way. You're willing to compromise yourself in order to have your career. You do the things that are expected, even though they aren't natural to you. So shouldn't you even consider doing that in your marriage? Cuddle once in a while. Hold hands, even if it seems strange and meaningless. Ask your wife about other things that if you did them would mean that you cared for her. The meaning of a communication is the response it elicits. That response may or my not be what you intended. So why not find out from her what communication from you will tell her what she wants to hear? Think of it like working for the marriage corporation, and as an employee you have to perform certain duties. Duties that will make a difference. Because, small as it is, a happy family, a successful marriage, makes a difference in the world.

 

[Brontosaurie]

welcome and thanks for a wonderfully descriptive introduction.

why don't you wanna cuddle with your wife? if i had one i'd cuddle her to death. maybe you did in the beginning but it has faded...

anyway i hope you will stay active and contribute from your perspective.

 

[chicklin]

welcome and thanks for a wonderfully descriptive introduction.

why don't you wanna cuddle with your wife? if i had one i'd cuddle her to death. maybe you did in the beginning but it has faded...

anyway i hope you will stay active and contribute from your perspective.

I've just never been a cuddle-y type of person. Same goes for public displays of affection. It's not her, it's me, I will definitely admit that.

Why am I that way? I don't know, just am. That's part of what led me here. The INTP profiles you read describe common traits but I don't think any of them explain "why". That's probably pretty damned hard to determine.

 

[own8ge]

971 post

 

[B.C.P.]

Chiklin, my best friend is an ESFJ. We're both males. We understand each other very well and we can have a great time together. It's actually really amusing when both of us get in a mood and I become an ESFJ while he becomes an INTP (our shadow functions emerge).

But there's a barrier between us. Not from a lack of understanding but from a lack of synchronization. Our communication styles are very different and we always see the opposite side of things. He is also absorbed in the world at large and what other people are doing while I am stuck in my head. He grounds me and I sometimes drag him into the clouds where, I think, he finds the air hard to breathe. It's been a tough friendship with many up's and down's. We often joke that we're like a couple.

My opinion is that, despite the fact we're different and can't see eye-to-eye, we exercise each other's inferior functions, especially when I talk to him about my relationships with women or other friends. He can help me understand how others may feel toward me, the place where I am most blind. Meanwhile, I help him understand the fundamental workings of the world, and the base motivations of others whereas his people-skills are good at detecting, not predicting. I've even been able to get him to abandon a couple of traditional values by throwing some solid reasoning at him.

Yes, you can convince an ESFJ of something if you try hard enough.

There's no reason why an ESFJ-INTP marriage can't work, but it's going to be a bit rough. I'd even venture to say that you're lucky you're not with an ESTJ. Nothing is more frustrating than a bossy traditionalist who thinks they can defend irrational values with their Te.

Good luck to you.