Tertiary Function

[OmoInisa]

I'm hunting for some stories about people's struggles with the tertiary.
The all-consuming fixation I have right now around my lifestyle revolves around my seeming hopelessness with the tertiary Si. I just can't seem to get a hold of myself and keep to a solid daily routing.
I've planned out how my evenings will go. It's not terribly demanding or tight. I just can't discipline myself to follow it. I usually end up surfing the web for most of the evening or otherwise doing anything other than what I'd resolved to do.

So the question is, can anyone here relate? Also to the Ni-doms here, what are your issues with your Fi/Ti?

The tertiary is known as the mobilising function in Socionics, and for good reason. I believe an INTP's success or failure in life (and therefore happiness) depends strongly on mastery of Si to a fair level of competence.

This brings me to the issue of Architect's type. It's a notable controversy on the forum, and those who see him as more of an ISTJ than an INTP of course have a point. He (or at least his written presentation) projects a high level of Si mastery.
This may or may not be obvious to him or his detractors, but that Si mastery is I believe the single most significant cause of the popularity of his persona on the forum.
We welcome help in relation to our tertiary. And so someone who evidently uses it expertly is held in high esteem. And so they should.
Hopefully those making mischief on poor old Archie's thread may desist and divert their attentions here, and let him finish in the manner he desires (and common decency and maturity demands of the culprits).
I might ask Cherry to reflect on why he enjoys the forum so much, despite being an INFJ.

Whether Architect is an INTP or an ISTJ (or anything else for that matter), his presence on the forum is a major help for the younger INTPs (among whom I count myself, even at 30).

So I'd also like to hear from other older INTPs (on the wiser side of 40) about what their relationship with their Si has been like in the past, and now.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I like it because people are expected to make sense in combination with the lack of taboos, which in turn encourages honesty and allows debates to play out fully without coming to a halt whenever someone says something that doesn't follow social norms. People don't resort to taking offense as a way of arguing. That and the fact that there are occasionally interesting subjects being discussed.

I'm not sure I enjoy the forum "so much" though! Maybe it just speaks to my tertiary

It has also given me a larger vocabulary which is great. Expressing internal thoughts is easier for Ji Doms than Si doms afaik. I think hanging around here has made me better at expressing my internal thoughts with clarity.

 

[Architect]

I'm hunting for some stories about people's struggles with the tertiary.
The all-consuming fixation I have right now around my lifestyle revolves around my seeming hopelessness with the tertiary Si. I just can't seem to get a hold of myself and keep to a solid daily routing.
I've planned out how my evenings will go. It's not terribly demanding or tight. I just can't discipline myself to follow it. I usually end up surfing the web for most of the evening or otherwise doing anything other than what I'd resolved to do.

That sounds more like Ne auxiliary than Si tertiary. It's common I believe for INTP's to have an overdeveloped Ne. For one, being extraverted it seems bigger than it is (or should be). Two, being extraverted it gets more strokes than Ti. And three, childhood in the modern world seems to encourage Ne more than Ti in young INTP's.

For the tertiary, I've gotten sucked into a melancholic desire for the past, and reminiscence for the past which I'd associate with Si. Also, I've experienced being too reliant on past information, and I've seen it with other INTP's. Too easy to make judgement on what has happened before versus present data. These were more of problem when I was younger, over time I've mitigated the issue.

The tertiary is known as the mobilising function in Socionics, and for good reason. I believe an INTP's success or failure in life (and therefore happiness) depends strongly on mastery of Si to a fair level of competence.

Hm, I think mastery of Ti (dominant) plays a bigger role. Will think.

This brings me to the issue of Architect's type. It's a notable controversy on the forum, and those who see him as more of an ISTJ than an INTP of course have a point. He (or at least his written presentation) projects a high level of Si mastery.
This may or may not be obvious to him or his detractors, but that Si mastery is I believe the single most significant cause of the popularity of his persona on the forum.

Sounds reasonable. INTP's are information seekers, having an older INTP who can clearly articulate the exact kind of answers young INTP's want must be alluring.

So I'd also like to hear from other older INTPs (on the wiser side of 40) about what their relationship with their Si has been like in the past, and now.

See above. I'd add that what I now identify as Si was always comforting to me. Indeed, the past is usually comforting because our minds rearrange and edit our memories.

Best way to see Si in action is spend time with a Si dominant ISFJ. I had thanksgiving with two of them a few years ago. The host had the <brilliant> idea of going around the table and saying what we were thankful for. An insipid tradition, and this time it backfired. The first ISFJ talked about Thanksgiving pasts, and people who were missing from this one (they passed away). He started to cry, then one of the kids (strong ESFP) broke down, then the other ISFJ broke down when it came to her. You can imagine I sat there disgusted, and thought about how this should be about the kids, not these nasty adults and their memories.

Anyhow find an ISFJ if you want to see Si in full swing.

 

[TheManBeyond]

I remember when i was a little kid, i was listed for some years in a religious school with nuns as teachers, i remember clearly how they took us to some kind of reunion, they called it a retreat, it was an auxiliary activity to name it some way. The thing is that they put us into a little chapel and made us close our eyes for some time. Then one of the nurses started talking to us about our family and specially our fathers, basically she was saying something like: "imagine your father and mom dies today, what would you feel, what would you have told him if you had the choice?". We were like 7-8 years old.
I didn't liked it and found it dumb, i remember clearly how i was competing against other badasses to not cry. The thing lasted for about 10 minutes, i was laughtning while 90% of the class were crying in endless pain becuz of a speech.
The thing is, forums are kinda like a competition.
EDIT: btw, i forgot another weird part of the story, when mothers and fathers knew about that specific activity they started asking if their sons had cried or not and nuns were saying with a smile on their faces: yes they cried

Dark shit.

 

[Brontosaurie]

interesting questions

i've been thinking of making a similar thread. i don't know if you've encouraged it or rendered it redundant :$

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Possibly wrong but:

Fi

I am too trusting/honest about certain aspects I probably shouldn't be for my social health. I easily idealize relations and preserve them longer than what might be considered rational. I either over-indulge in personal feelings and attachments or ignore them completely/chronically. I'm somewhat okay with opportunistic behavior in individuals but seeing it done in public/publicly as a group makes me uncomfortable. I expect a lot and give much less than I think I do. I have urges to "do the right thing" but I'm often hesitant and believe the urge still counts. I'm easily disarmed by "good behavior", as that's all I really want from others. Likewise I can be manipulated by "positive attention", the conscious part of me believing nothing is wrong.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, I'm in my 40's and have an inexplicable connection to my past -- it's comforting in a way that I can't explain as it seems to bump up against my rationality and my openness. Why should I care at all about foundational core experiences that give me a sense of stability simply because I am familiar with them and they were part of my life? But I do.

I've bumped around a lot over the course of my life although remaining mostly in the mid-Atlantic east USA. And as I age, I thrill more and more at going places far away and very different from where I am now -- I even realized that I *need* those kinds of experiences because I get bored and too settled and thus stagnate. Yet, whereas where I grew up is rather boring in some ways (rural PA, all hills and streams and fields and trees, not much to see once you've seen it), when I move away too long I actually miss it even if I'm in a more beautiful locale. I miss it because it was my childhood and it's familiar to me and part of "me," and going back is still like a magical unfolding. It was hard when Mom moved this summer after Dad's death, because I knew that the property was no longer "mine."

Still, for the opposite tact, that house itself held a lot of dark memories for me, and I'm glad to never set foot in it again. Every time I went back as an adult, it seemed dark and dreary and foreboding, like all the pain I experienced there as a child was oozing out of the walls. Rationally, of course, that's not "true" -- I process it as human psychology in that we're like the cat sitting on the burner, intense emotions can be tied to intense memories and/or proximity, it's just how we're wired -- but the subjective experience is that of suffocation.

I still listen to a lot of music I loved as a kid (even Christian Contemporary despite now identifying mostly as an agnostic) -- it immediately brings back feelings and experiences I had had at that time, it's a throwback to an older me.

I can go on and on with that stuff, but the end thing is that those things -- the memories, the sensations, the sounds, the visuals -- anchor me back to the person I was then and I get a sense of continuation and coherence in terms of who I am now. It's like a time machine... or rather, time ceases to matter.

Because of that, I actually grew more fond of personal family ritual as I got older and especially raising my kids. We handled Christmas in a particular fashion as part of anchoring those kinds of shared experiences, and repeating them helped our family feel like a family and are things I still think of fondly.

This would tie in with Architect's comments too about "depending on past information." When I was younger, I tended to base my rationality on information I got at one time in the past, but as I went more and more into the world, I was able to see that there was an endless supply of information that could be overwhelming sometimes to process (and I have to add "filters" to present myself from drowning) and that I couldn't afford to stick with just the small initial subset I started with -- wrong assumptions -> wrong conclusions. I've seen INTPs who get one view of the world anchored in their head and aren't open, and they do come off as more ISTJ.

The thing is, as a tert, that's about all it does for me.

The OP refers to getting schedules into place -- patterns, routines, all that. I've always sucked at that... or, rather, I did okay when I was under the care of my ISFJ mom, but ever since, especially the more and more the Ne took hold, I just haven't been able to get things under wraps. I work hard at it, but... just really bad at routine. Always have been. Probably always will, I realize now. That's the tradeoff -- it's hard to be both open and flexible AND routine/structured. You're usually one or the other, and the extremity of the one determines how hard the other is. I'm pretty damned flexible.

Latest problem -- trying so hard to get into an exercise/diet habit, and still struggling. Been trying for 1-2 years. Keep falling on my face. In this regard, I miss my ex who was ISFJ and really good at that level of self-management and dragged me along simply because of proximity. I'm on my own now and afraid I've only got as much discipline as a comet that travels 10,000 years before repeating its course (so it's on a routine but you wouldn't know it).

Best way to see Si in action is spend time with a Si dominant ISFJ. I had thanksgiving with two of them a few years ago. The host had the <brilliant> idea of going around the table and saying what we were thankful for. An insipid tradition, and this time it backfired. The first ISFJ talked about Thanksgiving pasts, and people who were missing from this one (they passed away). He started to cry, then one of the kids (strong ESFP) broke down, then the other ISFJ broke down when it came to her. You can imagine I sat there disgusted, and thought about how this should be about the kids, not these nasty adults and their memories. Anyhow find an ISFJ if you want to see Si in full swing.

That sounds like a tangent in terms of "things we're thankful for" (unless they were happy so-and-so was no longer around), lol. That does sound much like my ISFJ mother, though.

My crappy ISFJ Thanksgiving story involves my hardcore ISFJ Christian ex-MIL who dominated holiday gatherings and at the very last Thanksgiving I spent with them forced everyone present to read an assigned Bible verse and then share three things they were thankful to God (the Christian God) for.

She also knew full well that there were those of us at the table who did not share her religious values but to her it was the "right thing to do" and how she had always personally felt, so we were forced to go along with it or create a scene, and it was at her house, so....

Talking to her about religious ideas was impossible because she had been raised a certain way, and so these things were automatically true and change was a betrayal of the "right" values.

 

[Cognisant]

I'm on my own now and afraid I've only got as much discipline as a comet that travels 10,000 years before repeating its course (so it's on a routine but you wouldn't know it).

You ought be immortal, in fact I think INTPs with their ability to continue a conversation from years ago as if no time had passed are the perfect type for an ageless existence.

I used to be like that but I'm an ENTP now, the present is a fleeting distraction and the past is so vauge I can hardly tell if it's real, all I truly see is the future, with such clarity and intensity I feel I need only reach out and grab it to turn it into reality.

 

[Jennywocky]

You ought be immortal, in fact I think INTPs with their ability to continue a conversation from years ago as if no time had passed are the perfect type for an ageless existence.

Which reminds me:

I like to think that when the time comes I'll be able to let go of everything, all my values, all my drives, all that binds me to reality; I try to enter this mindset when I'm going to sleep, it's just so incredibly peaceful, like when you're on holiday and leave your watch in the bottom of your bag, because the passage of time is meaningless, temporarily at least.

... it looks like your passions have shifted to the future?

I used to be like that but I'm an ENTP now, the present is a fleeting distraction and the past is so vauge I can hardly tell if it's real, all I truly see is the future, with such clarity and intensity I feel I need only reach out and grab it to turn it into reality.

 

[Cognisant]

That's not a passion, that's getting the Ne to shut up so I can sleep.

It doesn't work anymore, these days I just daydream myself into actually dreaming.

 

[Jennywocky]

That's not a passion, that's getting the Ne to shut up so I can sleep.

It doesn't work anymore, these days I just daydream myself into actually dreaming.

It's been four years but it still seems like yesterday.
~Mama Comet

 

[OmoInisa]

That sounds more like Ne auxiliary than Si tertiary

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. The principle of mutual exclusion lies at the heart of the formulation of the function stack.

It's common I believe for INTP's to have an overdeveloped Ne. For one, being extraverted it seems bigger than it is (or should be). Two, being extraverted it gets more strokes than Ti. And three, childhood in the modern world seems to encourage Ne more than Ti in young INTP's.

Too true.

Hm, I think mastery of Ti (dominant) plays a bigger role. Will think.

Well it's not always clear where Ti ends and Si begins. I think that's the case with the dominant and the tertiary in general. They walk hand in hand. And the same holds for the auxiliary and the inferior. Exactly why this is (if indeed it is) is still not fully formed in my mind. Will think.
One possible reason might be the shared orientation, which makes them easy and natural partners.

 

[OmoInisa]

Possibly wrong but:

Fi

I am too trusting/honest about certain aspects I probably shouldn't be for my social health. I easily idealize relations and preserve them longer than what might be considered rational. I either over-indulge in personal feelings and attachments or ignore them completely/chronically. I'm somewhat okay with opportunistic behavior in individuals but seeing it done in public/publicly as a group makes me uncomfortable. I expect a lot and give much less than I think I do. I have urges to "do the right thing" but I'm often hesitant and believe the urge still counts. I'm easily disarmed by "good behavior", as that's all I really want from others. Likewise I can be manipulated by "positive attention", the conscious part of me believing nothing is wrong.

Interesting insights. I've tended to see Fi in INTJs as causing a disconcerting degree of self-orientation. They engage with the world in a manner that's often appeared to me as self-serving. This is just an outside view of course, which inevitably carries a bias resulting from my own preferences.

I miss it because it was my childhood and it's familiar to me and part of "me," and going back is still like a magical unfolding.

A thousand times yes.

it's a throwback to an older me.

Neat

This would tie in with Architect's comments too about "depending on past information." When I was younger, I tended to base my rationality on information I got at one time in the past, but as I went more and more into the world, I was able to see that there was an endless supply of information that could be overwhelming sometimes to process (and I have to add "filters" to present myself from drowning) and that I couldn't afford to stick with just the small initial subset I started with -- wrong assumptions -> wrong conclusions. I've seen INTPs who get one view of the world anchored in their head and aren't open, and they do come off as more ISTJ.

Yes, finding that balance between Ne and Si is the holy grail.

Latest problem -- trying so hard to get into an exercise/diet habit, and still struggling. Been trying for 1-2 years. Keep falling on my face. In this regard, I miss my ex who was ISFJ and really good at that level of self-management and dragged me along simply because of proximity. I'm on my own now and afraid I've only got as much discipline as a comet that travels 10,000 years before repeating its course (so it's on a routine but you wouldn't know it).

Your longing for your ex is interesting. I suspect the struggle with Si may be a lifelong one for many INTPs. The options to master it adequately amount to either summoning enough willpower to do it (unsustainable beyond a short burst) or finding a permanent external stimulus.

 

[Jennywocky]

Your longing for your ex is interesting. I suspect the struggle with Si may be a lifelong one for many INTPs. The options to master it adequately amount to either summoning enough willpower to do it (unsustainable beyond a short burst) or finding a permanent external stimulus.

Yup, that's basically it -- either I mentally "power through" if I have enough energy (which is why I do a lot of "burst" activities, I'm bad at long-term repetitive patterns) or I find some kind of external constraints to lock me in a certain path of behavior.

 

[cheese]

Best way to see Si in action is spend time with a Si dominant ISFJ. I had thanksgiving with two of them a few years ago. The host had the <brilliant> idea of going around the table and saying what we were thankful for. An insipid tradition, and this time it backfired. The first ISFJ talked about Thanksgiving pasts, and people who were missing from this one (they passed away). He started to cry, then one of the kids (strong ESFP) broke down, then the other ISFJ broke down when it came to her. You can imagine I sat there disgusted, and thought about how this should be about the kids, not these nasty adults and their memories.

Spoiler

Why is it an insipid tradition? It seems like a good habit to build. Practising gratitude is linked to a host of benefits; done as a communal activity it also increases bonding (for most people). We shouldn't let bad memories or cynicism get in the way of continuing to do something useful.

What's wrong with people crying? Why should Thanksgiving be only about kids and what makes them directly happy? They learn from the models they see. This one had adults actively practising gratitude - a healthy habit - and reinforcing emotional ties. I expect the adults continued functioning afterwards and didn't collapse in a heap of grief for days. Yet another thing to learn: You can mourn but still keep going.

What's wrong with memories? Your disgust at what seems like a very normal family time seems really strange.

In my experience, these times are important and really help pull people together. Some are unable to join in emotionally but they are usually the odd ones out. I think they lack whatever it is which allows one to feel part of a group (my guess is it's related to empathy).

Did it feel artificial or like needless wallowing? Though even that's a judgement call on someone else's feelings that we can't fully know. Were the kids crying because they were mildly traumatised/were they disconnected from the pain of loss, but not the negativity of the atmosphere/were they too young to understanding mourning?

Other than that, the whole scenario sounds very useful and normal in terms of development and bonding. Whereas encouraging detachment and irritation at other people's feelings over a lost loved one doesn't.

 

[Architect]

My crappy ISFJ Thanksgiving story involves my hardcore ISFJ Christian ex-MIL who dominated holiday gatherings and at the very last Thanksgiving I spent with them forced everyone present to read an assigned Bible verse and then share three things they were thankful to God (the Christian God) for.

She also knew full well that there were those of us at the table who did not share her religious values but to her it was the "right thing to do" and how she had always personally felt, so we were forced to go along with it or create a scene, and it was at her house, so....

Talking to her about religious ideas was impossible because she had been raised a certain way, and so these things were automatically true and change was a betrayal of the "right" values.

My INFJ says "thank you Jennywocky ..."

 

[Architect]

Why is it an insipid tradition? It seems like a good habit to build. Practising gratitude is linked to a host of benefits; done as a communal activity it also increases bonding (for most people). We shouldn't let bad memories or cynicism get in the way of continuing to do something useful.

Because it's kitsch. Hallmark sentiment. "I'm thankful for the food we have" - I don't buy it. Nobody at that table went hungry a day in their life, and the way they stuff themselves there was little cherishment, more like gluttony. They eat too much. I ride the bottom end of my caloric needs, and when so every meal is cherished. I love every bite because I don't get too many of them. And so, I was also disgusted with the gluttonous Thanksgiving meal, with all of its greases, sugars and meats.

C’mon Pigs of Western Civilization Eat More Grease

Spoiler

C’mon Pigs of Western Civilization
Eat More Grease.
Allen Ginsberg
Eat Eat more marbled Sirloin more Pork 'n
gravy!
Lard up the dressing, fry chicken in
boiling oil
Carry it dribbling to gray climes, snowed with
salt,
Little lambs covered with mint roast in rack
surrounded by roast potatoes wet with
buttersauce.
Buttered veal medallions in creamy saliva
buttered beef, glistening mountains
of french fries
Stroganoffs in white hot sour cream, chops
soaked in olive oil
surrounded by olives, salty feta cheese, followed
by Roquefort & Bleu & Stilton
thirsty
for wine, beer Cocacola Fanta Champagne
Pepsi retsina arak whiskey vodka
Agh! Watch out heart attack, pop more
angina pills
order a plate of Bratwurst, fried frankfurters,
couple billion Wimpys', MacDonald burger
to the moon & burp!
Salt on those fries! Boil onions
& breaded mushrooms even zucchini
in deep hot Crisco pans
Turkeys die only once,
look nice, next to tall white glasses
sugarmilk & icecream vanilla balls
Strawberrry for sweeter color milkshakes
with hot dogs
Forget greenbeans, everyday a few carrots,
a mini big spoonful of salty rice'll
do, make the plate pretty;
throw in some vinegar pickles, briney sauerkraut
check yr. cholesterol, swallow a pill
and order a sugar Cream donut, pack 2 under
the size 44 belt
Pass out in the vomitorium come back cough
up strands of sandwich still chewing
pastrami at Katz's delicatessen
Back to central Europe & gobble Kielbasa
in Lodz
swallow salami in Munich with beer,Liverwurst
on pumpernickel in Berlin, greasy cheese in
a 3 star Hotel near Syntagma, on white
bread thick-buttered
Set an example for developing nations, salt,
sugar, animal fat, coffee tobacco Schnapps
Drop dead faster! make room for
Chinese guestworkers with alien soybean
curds green cabbage & rice!
Africans Latins with rice beans & calabash can
stay thin & crowd in apartments for working
class foodfreaks —

Not like western cuisine rich in protein
cancer heart attack hypertension sweat
bloated liver & spleen megaly
Diabetes & stroke — monuments to carnivorous
civilizations
presently murdering Belfast
Bosnia Cypress Ngorno Karabach Georgia
mailing love letter bombs in
Vienna or setting houses afire
in East Germany — have another coffee,
here's a cigar.
And this is a plate of black forest chocolate cake,
you deserve it.

What's wrong with people crying?

Because they're crying about people most of us never knew? You go to a party, meet some people and they start crying about something. Sounds like a fun date?

Why should Thanksgiving be only about kids and what makes them directly happy?

I didn't say that, I said it's about the kids. Implicitly it's about the present and the future, not wallowing in the past. That's morbid - to me. Maybe some people like to socialize that way.

But it's still kitsch. Modern people confuse it with authentic emotions. Nobody there really cared about what was going on with me, or anybody else. Whereas I was interested in them. What are they really doing? What do they really think or feel? What do they really care about? I don't even ask anymore, too used to getting deflected from anything too "serious".

99% of people, in my estimation, are incapable of authentic interactions. They surround themselves with kitsch (Hallmark emotions), fakery (pretending things aren't what they are), buffoonery (sit com humor) and small talk. Sensors are the worst at this, and I'm surrounded by them.

What's wrong with memories? Your disgust at what seems like a very normal family time seems really strange.

You had to be there.

 

[cheese]

Archie:

Spoiler

Because it's kitsch. Hallmark sentiment. "I'm thankful for the food we have" - I don't buy it. Nobody at that table went hungry a day in their life, and the way they stuff themselves there was little cherishment, more like gluttony. They eat too much. I ride the bottom end of my caloric needs, and when so every meal is cherished. I love every bite because I don't get too many of them. And so, I was also disgusted with the gluttonous Thanksgiving meal, with all of its greases, sugars and meats.

OK, so you were disgusted by them, you considered your way of enjoying food superior, you don't believe in their emotions and dismiss them.

Your gratitude is artificially induced. You restrict calories through choice; there's no reason your gratitude means more. Your tastebuds might be more sensitive, but who's to say they don't just really love pigging out and are grateful they're able to do that? Why does your ability to savour and enjoy food in your way outweigh their ability to enjoy eating the way they do?

Because they're crying about people most of us never knew? You go to a party, meet some people and they start crying about something. Sounds like a fun date?

It sounds like human interaction. I find it strange that you dismiss emotion as being inauthentic on the one hand, and then dismiss it at another when it's inconvenient for your pre-scheduled fun.

Sounds like a normal day to me. Someone having a bad time happens all the time. Parties are artificial constructs that work if everyone agrees to make it work. Sometimes it can't; that's real life. It's not a problem. The fact that you don't care simply because you don't know the deceased yourself is revealing. It's *not* about you in that instant, it's about them. Plenty of people would feel empathy and not alienation in that moment. Being respectful witness to their pain would be a way of sharing in that moment with them. But then you complain they don't care about you or anyone else and you do, you want to know what's going on with them... even though they're showing you right there!

But it's still kitsch. Modern people confuse it with authentic emotions. Nobody there really cared about what was going on with me, or anybody else. Whereas I was interested in them. What are they really doing? What do they really think or feel? What do they really care about? I don't even ask anymore, too used to getting deflected from anything too "serious".

I really can't follow this. They were crying about someone they lost, and you talk about never being able to really talk because anything 'too serious' is off-limits.

I follow your chain of *emotion*. Which is that you're repulsed by these people. They eat too much, they've never suffered the way you have (through choice), their emotions get in your way, you can't relate to how they feel so you dismiss it. And then a bunch of beliefs about how people should behave (Thanksgiving should be done *this* way, parties should be done *this* way, serious emotion is appropriate in *these* but not *those* circumstances).

Then you rationalise it by claiming their emotions are kitsch. (An annoying judgement call of blanket illegitimacy, but I understand the impulse.)

99% of people, in my estimation, are incapable of authentic interactions. They surround themselves with kitsch (Hallmark emotions), fakery (pretending things aren't what they are), buffoonery (sit com humor) and small talk. Sensors are the worst at this, and I'm surrounded by them.

More repulsion.

I didn't say that, I said it's about the kids. Implicitly it's about the present and the future, not wallowing in the past. That's morbid - to me. Maybe some people like to socialize that way.

I guess it could be wallowing. Or it could be maintaining a connection to the past to develop a sense of continuity in self and life-narrative (both useful and healthy).

You had to be there.

Fair enough. There's a strong possibility it was genuinely terrible. It's just not clear to me from what's laid out here. Perhaps it's hard to communicate exactly what the problem was without it being open to attack.

Spoiler

From where I stand, it looks like you were disgusted by the setting (gluttonous people, gluttonous food), so you were in a negative state of mind to start with. You obviously have a lot of judgement for the people around you in general and consider them both inauthentic and facile. You don't empathise with other people as part of a collective, generalising from your own experiences - instead you dismiss their feelings where they're not directly relevant to the established setting (eg party = good/positive feelings), or to you. This shows Fe is present (your judgement at not adhering to collective standards like ensuring everyone is included and feels involved - hence your irritation at bringing up downers like irrelevant dead people) but weak (unable to feel as a group).

Because you don't feel *with*, you assume others don't as well, and that displays of emotion where one knows the other can't fully understand must be mere displays and not genuine expression - kitsch, inauthentic. Your frustration at not interacting in a way which engages *you* emotionally convinces you further that these people are inauthentic. Add to that your natural repulsion towards them, and your dismissal of whatever gratitude they express comes even easier.

----------------------

I'm guilty of this too. I have some people I feel strongly that way about, and others whose sincerity I believe deeply, even if on the surface they're displaying the same behaviour. Maybe you do too. Are we relying on the magical and mysterious and supported-by-science Gut Feeling, or are we just fooling ourselves into justifying our conclusions with a bunch of prior irritation and repulsion we're unaware of?

I mean, I can certainly imagine the kind of scenario where I would experience the things you did, and react similarly. What you described wasn't sufficient to place myself there, hence the analysis, but I can imagine situations that have me reacting the same way.

Kitsch and other such assertions are real problems. They enable you to stop analysing your reaction of irritation/disgust and give you a possibly-false sense of legitimacy in doing so. They pass the burden of your disgust onto the object. This is not the best (in a truth-seeking sense) course of action for an INTP, because emotion-aversion is our natural state anyway. How do you determine an authentic interaction if several normal components of interaction (like empathy) aren't experienced by you? Going with your gut that bases what is authentic and what isn't in someone else off how *you* operate isn't the perfect answer.

[Man, fuck being human.]

I think our reactions should be questioned.

*edit
Shit, I just spent a bunch of time and words on this and am now suffering poster's remorse/I don't know if it's warranted - why can't you just have had an opinion about a dinner you didn't enjoy?
But I'll leave it because I do think this is a classic example of low Fe, which is topic-relevant. [Both your reactions at the dinner, and my reactions to your reactions.

And now I'm late for work! Aaaargh!

[Happy to drop it if you are.]

Which leads back to the OP!

Theory:
Development of the tertiary (and inferior) should be in line with the dominant's positive needs (unbiased truth, in Ti's case), but also separate from the shadow of its fears (like being tainted by emotion). If your development is directed by a negative polar relationship (like in Ti-Fe types, being dismissive of or repulsed by emotional displays, and therefore committing not to buy into them), then it will be hampered by it and will develop largely along those lines.

Genuine development is based on the positive agendas of both functions in a polar relationship, with the stronger leading the way. They are somewhat opposed but can also be somewhat reconciled [need to think this one through much further].

 

[DIALECTIC]

The tertiary is known as the mobilising function in Socionics, and for good reason. I believe an INTP's success or failure in life (and therefore happiness) depends strongly on mastery of Si to a fair level of competence.
So I'd also like to hear from other older INTPs (on the wiser side of 40) about what their relationship with their Si has been like in the past, and now.

My tertiary function truly saved my life when my Ne and Fe would still have me stuck in the same crazy / self-destructing paths ! Si is like having constant reminders of what went wrong last time i went on the same or similar paths ! Si permits us to learn from experience while Ne and Fe would just force us to have more experience / fun and not remember the lessons from the past !

So I'd also like to hear from other older INTPs (on the wiser side of 40) about what their relationship with their Si has been like in the past, and now.

I am 40, nearly 41. I would say my Si started to develop in the early 30's and is by now fully efficient / deployed.

Ne sees patterns...
Si recognizes already explored / experienced patterns... Without Si to stop it, Ne just goes into overdrive !

Ne + Si = PATTERN RECOGNITION
Ne from the past becomes Si (memories / databank), also thru learning about the past, we are able to extrapolate data from the present into the future and imagining potential outcomes while Ni would fixate only on the most probablistic outcome without considering the past or the fact that everything is ever changing...



- My Si is what tells me that i need to go to the gym (even if at times i can't be bothered), reminding me what i was like when i didn't...

- My Si is what tells me to meditate 2 x 30 min every single day (even if at times i can't be bothered), reminding me what i was like, stress / anger wise, when i never used to meditate...

- My Si is what tells me "don't bother with this woman, she looks super sexy yes but do remember what happened every time you ended up with that type of women..."

- My Si is what tells me when i am in town and a bit hungry "wait to get back home to eat in so that it will save some money plus it will be healthier than eating a pizza outside..."

- My Si is what reminds me at night to get my clothes and food organized for the morning so that i don't get too rushed when i wake up...

- My Si is what warns me that there's something wrong in my body...
I think i can detect "issues" in my body a lot faster than before so that i can take actions asap !

- My Si is what tells me to follow a healthy diet and just drink one glass of alcohol when i might be tempted to drink more, it says to me "remember what happened last time you had too much to drink four years ago..."

- My Si is what tells me to go to bed at the same time (midnight) every night so that i have enough sleep...

- My Si is what warns me not to lose my temper when i am around relatives i already lost my temper with in the past...

ETC. ETC. ETC.


I find Si a very conservative function, also it is very practical, it's a saver: money saver, time saver, emotion saver, energy saver, life saver, whatever... It is all about ECONOMY / SAVING !


My mum is an ISTJ... To be honest i love her Si (that's what she excels at !), but her Te always serioulsy pissed me off and stopped me listening to some of her precious (Si) advices when i was younger !


I read somewhere that the problem with introverts is our auxiliary function, as we tend to get stuck in it (just like if we were true extroverts using it as our primary function !) overdoing it... Unless / until we start mastering our tertiary function that is !

 

[DIALECTIC]

Well it's not always clear where Ti ends and Si begins.

I found when i can't really make out where one ends / begins it's because i am stuck into some depressive / regressive Ti-Si loop over-analyzing the past as at that time i don't have access to NEW data / information / experience / ideas etc. so i keep on neurotocally analyzing what i already know / figured out in the hope to find out something new but it never or hardly ever works !!

The opposite pole was hypomanic / manic / progressive Ne-Fe loop over-synthetizing and exploring boundless possibilities / ideas but i have never been stuck in such loops for a few years, i think it is an age thing. Those Ne-Fe loops are like "Quantum jumps" for us... However there's a harsh price to pay !

Better not getting stuck into any of them loops though...

 

[OmoInisa]

- My Si is what tells me that i need to go to the gym (even if at times i can't be bothered), reminding me what i was like when i didn't...

- My Si is what tells me to meditate 2 x 30 min every single day (even if at times i can't be bothered), reminding me what i was like, stress / anger wise, when i never used to meditate...

- My Si is what tells me "don't bother with this woman, she looks super sexy yes but do remember what happened every time you ended up with that type of women..."

- My Si is what tells me when i am in town and a bit hungry "wait to get back home to eat in so that it will save some money plus it will be healthier than eating a pizza outside..."

- My Si is what reminds me at night to get my clothes and food organized for the morning so that i don't get too rushed when i wake up...

- My Si is what warns me that there's something wrong in my body... I think i can detect "issues" in my body a lot faster than before so that i can take actions asap...

- My Si is what tells me to follow a healthy diet and to not drink alcohol no more...

- My Si is what tells me to go to bed at the same time every night so that i have enough sleep...

- My Si is what warns me not to lose my temper when i am around relative i already lost my temper with in the past...

ETC. ETC. ETC.


I find Si a very conservative function, also it is very practical, it's a saver: money saver, time saver, emotion saver, energy saver, life saver, whatever... It is all about ECONOMY / SAVING !

Thank you Dialectic. I have actually planned out every single one of the items in your list too. I just haven't managed to muster sufficient willpower to go long enough to slot myself into cruise control. I'm getting there though, and I feel it's not too far away.
However, if/when I do manage it, I suspect that a disturbance in the rhythm (because, you know..life) would just turn the habit into dust again. And back to the beginning. The remedy I believe is to have Si users in my orbit to provide that ever-present vibe to provide fuel to harden the cruise control against all comers (perhaps like you with your mother).
At least in the short term, until my own Si is strong enough to do the job by itself.

 

[DIALECTIC]

Thank you Dialectic. I have actually planned out every single one of the items in your list too. I just haven't managed to muster sufficient willpower to go long enough to slot myself into cruise control. I'm getting there though, and I feel it's not too far away.
However, if/when I do manage it, I suspect that a disturbance in the rhythm (because, you know..life) would just turn the habit into dust again. And back to the beginning. The remedy I believe is to have Si users in my orbit to provide that ever-present vibe to provide fuel to harden the cruise control against all comers (perhaps like you with your mother).

Will power ? Start meditation pal !!
After i listened to David Lynch (INFP) talking about meditation so so passionately, i learnt meditation and my whole life changed (for the better) ever since !

And i don't need any Si users around me to help me out (however i still pick practical things from them), thru meditation i slowly became my own mediator meaning becoming self-sufficient and self-determined...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UHLMVr4vg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IbiNzPqTgY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10GOdC9hMmk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2z9oJrYKL8

 

[OmoInisa]

Hmm. Very good. Definitely a useful tool.