Blurred Lines

[Cavalli]

Please, for the love of God, someone explain to me how this god damned song is supposed to be a rape anthem. I have tried so hard but really - all's I see is feminist bullshit.

Convince me INTPf.

 

[Cognisant]

By Robin Thicke? *checks it out* Why does anyone listen to this crap?

I'm more concerned by Guy Sebastian's "Like It Like That", there's one bit where I swear he says "you'd rather have the back of my hand" which given the chorus makes this sound like an abusive relationship.

 

[Lot]

I could see how a person could see it as a rape anthem, but they are looking too deep. Part of the song is about sex. The other part is about weed. I think? I guess someone could say the narrator is trying to use drugs to get the, assumed, female character the monologue is directed at to "get nasty"

But who cares?

What I can say is that the song is catchy. Always gets stuck in my head.

Spoiler

Perfect get song unstuck cures
http://heyyeyaaeyaaaeyaeyaa.com/hey.swf

http://youtu.be/d-LKa1Y9_ok

 

[The Void]

For the love of God?
I dont love God so I will not help. I dont even listen to music.

 

[Cognisant]

God is an externally projected ego so any love for a god you may hypothetically have is really just love for yourself via proxy, hence why narcissists tend to think they are gods themselves.

 

[Cavalli]

For the love of God?
I dont love God so I will not help. I dont even listen to music.

That was a really irrelevant comment...


And yeah, by Robin Thicke, Cog.

Lot, I agree. They are looking too deep into it.. Like they're just hellbent on finding a reason to make it a rape anthem.

 

[BigApplePi]

What song Cavalli? Is something left out or am I deef?

 

[Goku]

I thought the song was about kids who couldn't erase good enough with their pencil erasers.

 

[Cognisant]

*rolls in a barrel of something, liquid by the sound of it, there's warning labels all over the barrel, flammable, corrosive, toxic, it'd be a shame if it wasn't radioactive too*

Well y'know these first world feminists these days haven't got a clue what it's all about, they bitch and moan about the smallest things, song lyrics, wolf whistling, the man keeping them down in many ways too subtle to conclusively prove or disprove, indeed it's all the man's fault, the attention we give them is either too much or too little because we are either too meek or too bold. Equality is a paradox too, you must treat a woman as if she's special but don't you dare hold the door, pay for the meal or enquirer about her business, unless you're supposed to, not that you'll know but you'll be in trouble all the same.

And god help you if she's in a bad mood.
A man can be screamed at, struck, humiliated and falsely accused but he must remain calm, never raise his voice, never take offence and most certainly never defend himself least that be interpreted as reprisal. Because as we all know women are incapable of controlling their emotions like we are which is why it's the man'd duty... No wait that's absolutely wrong, we're violent overgrown children compared to those creatures of beauty and grace that comprise the fairer sex, which is why we must condemn our fellow man least our friendship lead us astray from the path of true manhood, because a man is not a man unless a woman says so, and only while she says so.

I digress, outside first world capitalist countries where great temples to excessive wealth convey severely overpriced garments, make-up, perfume, fashionable, consumer electronics, small cakes and whatever else someone only without a Y chromosome may desire, there's the forgotten lands where feminists are actually feminists. Because in these places whether by culture, law, or simply tradition there are women who are actually oppressed, who don't receive education, who don't get to vote, who can't get a job or if they do it's at unequal pay, women who fear rape because the police don't care about such petty issues, women who couldn't care less about the lyrics of a song unless it's the chant of some religious extremist group that may execute them for having the audacity to try to learn how to read.

*tips barrel over and throws a match on the spilling contents*

Spoiler

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rnw0D2AdYU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-Rnw0D2AdYU

 

[Brontosaurie]

alludes to blurred lines between consensual sex and rape?

 

[BigApplePi]

Nice post Cognisant.

There are two extremes of women. One is the traditional who plays the traditional family role of wife/mother, housewife, and child caretaker. The other is the one who stands up for women's rights who has to state the position whether men like it or not. The former could be a "P." The latter a "J."

I once stated these two kinds of women in a mixed group. Got no response or grimaces. I assume then I was correct. Those two kinds are the extremes. The rest can appear blurred.

 

[Brontosaurie]

There are two extremes of women. One is the traditional who plays the traditional family role of wife/mother, housewife, and child caretaker. The other is the one who stands up for women's rights who has to state the position whether men like it or not. The former could be a "P." The latter a "J."

wow.........

NO

 

[Base groove]

wow.........

NO

alludes to blurred lines between consensual sex and rape?

I had the same reaction, to both the tread and that post

I think it could have something to do with the head games that men and women play with each other, to dance around the subject

Perhaps foreplay

 

[Latte]

alludes to blurred lines between consensual sex and rape?

Yeah, it's pretty obvious how easily it can be seen that way. That the song is like the essence of what is called rape culture (which isn't a culture about rape, but rather a culture that actual rapists feel validates them and their actions and normalizes their attitudes). Listening to it reminds so much of how a couple of studies indicate a large majority of rapists would not describe what they do as rape, but actually fill out a form saying they performed acts that actually are rape. They just see it as a kind of blurry line / justified in certain special cases and thus not "rape", "because rape is bad and they're not bad people". And also that most date rapists believe it's very normal.

This is why this song got latched onto so heavily, because whether or not it's intended that way, it most definitely contributes to the normalization of attitudes that people use to justify rape.

I think the reason some people don't understand is because they don't understand a very prevalent mentality among date-rapists and as such cannot recognize it in the song. Well, either that or actually have the mentality that the song projects.

Equality is a paradox too, you must treat a woman as if she's special but don't you dare hold the door, pay for the meal or enquirer about her business, unless you're supposed to, not that you'll know but you'll be in trouble all the same.

Well, no. It's not a paradox. Gender equality is to not treat a person differently based on its gender. There's no magic involved. If you pay for someone's meal, that has nothing to do with equality.

If someone gets upset because you don't pay for their meal and you think it's unreasonable, dump that asshole. If someone has double standards, it's an asshole, spewing interpersonal diarrhea all over and abusing as many cultural norms from as many subcultures as it possibly can to get benefits for itself. It's not someone who actually cares about ideology for the sake of ideology, it's someone who manipulates events for its own personal gain.

Feminism isn't for the most part problematic in regards to the maintenence of double standards in today's culture (the only thing I can currently think of in my country is some cases of affirmative action). The most problematic parts are that pretty much no one speaks up for when men are expected to behave in ways they shouldn't, if there was more equality.

Men are still expected to stay behind on the titanic and just die, for the most part. Men still can't opt out of fatherhood and financial responsibilities of a child in the first trimester (which is a huge big deal but never ever gets discussed).

Besides the legal, just like there remains a cultural battle to wage in regards to perceptions about and expectations regarding females, there also remains a cultural battle to wage in regards to perceptions about and expectations of men. Men from a very young age often don't have their feelings validated just because of their gender. They learn that their feelings simply don't matter as much and that they don't matter much inherently beyond what they achieve. The space for how to acceptably behave as a male is arguably almost as abyssmal as it was for women in the early 1900s

If a decent movement rolls out regarding these issues and more (I haven't seen any such movement so far), a large segment of those who currently wage the feminist cultural battle to uproot damaging aspects of western culture in regards to women will be the first to support it.

But whining about unreality in an imaginary war between genders like r/mensrights instead of being constructive and harvesting sympathy and building bridges and understanding among different people is not going to get anyone anywhere good.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

*rolls in a barrel of something, liquid by the sound of it, there's warning labels all over the barrel, flammable, corrosive, toxic, it'd be a shame if it wasn't radioactive too*

Well y'know these first world feminists these days haven't got a clue what it's all about, they bitch and moan about the smallest things, song lyrics, wolf whistling, the man keeping them down in many ways too subtle to conclusively prove or disprove, indeed it's all the man's fault, the attention we give them is either too much or too little because we are either too meek or too bold. Equality is a paradox too, you must treat a woman as if she's special but don't you dare hold the door, pay for the meal or enquirer about her business, unless you're supposed to, not that you'll know but you'll be in trouble all the same.

And god help you if she's in a bad mood.
A man can be screamed at, struck, humiliated and falsely accused but he must remain calm, never raise his voice, never take offence and most certainly never defend himself least that be interpreted as reprisal. Because as we all know women are incapable of controlling their emotions like we are which is why it's the man'd duty... No wait that's absolutely wrong, we're violent overgrown children compared to those creatures of beauty and grace that comprise the fairer sex, which is why we must condemn our fellow man least our friendship lead us astray from the path of true manhood, because a man is not a man unless a woman says so, and only while she says so.

I digress, outside first world capitalist countries where great temples to excessive wealth convey severely overpriced garments, make-up, perfume, fashionable, consumer electronics, small cakes and whatever else someone only without a Y chromosome may desire, there's the forgotten lands where feminists are actually feminists. Because in these places whether by culture, law, or simply tradition there are women who are actually oppressed, who don't receive education, who don't get to vote, who can't get a job or if they do it's at unequal pay, women who fear rape because the police don't care about such petty issues, women who couldn't care less about the lyrics of a song unless it's the chant of some religious extremist group that may execute them for having the audacity to try to learn how to read.

*tips barrel over and throws a match on the spilling contents*

Spoiler

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rnw0D2AdYU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-Rnw0D2AdYU

The militant feminists, as most militant groups tend to be, are over-shooting the mark in an effort to change the culture thereby paradoxically drawing attention away from their good points and instead, attention goes to militant attitudes which grate on people (as they should!).

Blurred Lines seems to be about sex...not rape. Hell, there are so many more offensive lyrics that it's ridiculous that this song is singled out.

 

[Kuu]

Hell, there are so many more offensive lyrics that it's ridiculous that this song is singled out.

Indeed. Though clearly it's because of the topless girls prancing about. Apparently women can't be topless unless they're crazy Femen.

 

[Cavalli]

Spoiler

*rolls in a barrel of something, liquid by the sound of it, there's warning labels all over the barrel, flammable, corrosive, toxic, it'd be a shame if it wasn't radioactive too*

Well y'know these first world feminists these days haven't got a clue what it's all about, they bitch and moan about the smallest things, song lyrics, wolf whistling, the man keeping them down in many ways too subtle to conclusively prove or disprove, indeed it's all the man's fault, the attention we give them is either too much or too little because we are either too meek or too bold. Equality is a paradox too, you must treat a woman as if she's special but don't you dare hold the door, pay for the meal or enquirer about her business, unless you're supposed to, not that you'll know but you'll be in trouble all the same.

And god help you if she's in a bad mood.
A man can be screamed at, struck, humiliated and falsely accused but he must remain calm, never raise his voice, never take offence and most certainly never defend himself least that be interpreted as reprisal. Because as we all know women are incapable of controlling their emotions like we are which is why it's the man'd duty... No wait that's absolutely wrong, we're violent overgrown children compared to those creatures of beauty and grace that comprise the fairer sex, which is why we must condemn our fellow man least our friendship lead us astray from the path of true manhood, because a man is not a man unless a woman says so, and only while she says so.

I digress, outside first world capitalist countries where great temples to excessive wealth convey severely overpriced garments, make-up, perfume, fashionable, consumer electronics, small cakes and whatever else someone only without a Y chromosome may desire, there's the forgotten lands where feminists are actually feminists. Because in these places whether by culture, law, or simply tradition there are women who are actually oppressed, who don't receive education, who don't get to vote, who can't get a job or if they do it's at unequal pay, women who fear rape because the police don't care about such petty issues, women who couldn't care less about the lyrics of a song unless it's the chant of some religious extremist group that may execute them for having the audacity to try to learn how to read.

*tips barrel over and throws a match on the spilling contents*

Spoiler

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rnw0D2AdYU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-Rnw0D2AdYU

Thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Very accurate imho.

alludes to blurred lines between consensual sex and rape?

True, but then most people would agree that there ARE blurred lines between consensual sex and rape. Hell, I agree with that statement. No, I don't think it's that.

Nice post Cognisant.

There are two extremes of women. One is the traditional who plays the traditional family role of wife/mother, housewife, and child caretaker. The other is the one who stands up for women's rights who has to state the position whether men like it or not. The former could be a "P." The latter a "J."

I once stated these two kinds of women in a mixed group. Got no response or grimaces. I assume then I was correct. Those two kinds are the extremes. The rest can appear blurred.

I agree.

I had the same reaction, to both the tread and that post

I think it could have something to do with the head games that men and women play with each other, to dance around the subject

Perhaps foreplay

I... am not sure what you're talking about.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious how easily it can be seen that way.

Looks like I missed the obviousness there.

That the song is like the essence of what is called rape culture (which isn't a culture about rape, but rather a culture that actual rapists feel validates them and their actions and normalizes their attitudes). Listening to it reminds so much of how a couple of studies indicate a large majority of rapists would not describe what they do as rape, but actually fill out a form saying they performed acts that actually are rape. They just see it as a kind of blurry line / justified in certain special cases and thus not "rape", "because rape is bad and they're not bad people". And also that most date rapists believe it's very normal.

Yeah see, I actually hate the way people go on about rape culture.

While the victims of rape are not to blame, their actions often DO have a direct influence on whether or not they're raped. For example, if the victim hadn't been grinding provocatively against the rapist, the rapist probably wouldn't have got the notion that she wants the D and thus raped her.

In addition to that, the most common form of rape trivialisation (is that even a word..) occurs through the use of humour. I make rape jokes and no, I'm not ashamed of that. I make jokes about a lot of things, why should I leave rape out of it? Shit, as long as it's funny/witty.

People are not stupid. People know rape is bad. Anyone who thinks they're justified clearly has something wrong with them in their noggin'. They were not brainwashed by culture.

This is why this song got latched onto so heavily, because whether or not it's intended that way, it most definitely contributes to the normalization of attitudes that people use to justify rape.

Like domesticating and liberating women? Feminists are all about the liberation of women... As for giving them something that'll tear their ass in two.. There's nothing in their about it being non-consensual. I can see it being disrespectful, but not endorsing rape.

I think the reason some people don't understand is because they don't understand a very prevalent mentality among date-rapists and as such cannot recognize it in the song. Well, either that or actually have the mentality that the song projects.

Or there's always option C: it was all a huge fad started by a bunch of rapists.

Well, no. It's not a paradox. Gender equality is to not treat a person differently based on its gender. There's no magic involved. If you pay for someone's meal, that has nothing to do with equality.

If someone gets upset because you don't pay for their meal and you think it's unreasonable, dump that asshole. If someone has double standards, it's an asshole, spewing interpersonal diarrhoea all over and abusing as many cultural norms from as many subcultures as it possibly can to get benefits for itself. It's not someone who actually cares about ideology for the sake of ideology, it's someone who manipulates events for its own personal gain.

You lost me here.

Feminism isn't for the most part problematic in regards to the maintenence of double standards in today's culture (the only thing I can currently think of in my country is some cases of affirmative action). The most problematic parts are that pretty much no one speaks up for when men are expected to behave in ways they shouldn't, if there was more equality.

Men are still expected to stay behind on the titanic and just die, for the most part. Men still can't opt out of fatherhood and financial responsibilities of a child in the first trimester (which is a huge big deal but never ever gets discussed).

Besides the legal, just like there remains a cultural battle to wage in regards to perceptions about and expectations regarding females, there also remains a cultural battle to wage in regards to perceptions about and expectations of men. Men from a very young age often don't have their feelings validated just because of their gender. They learn that their feelings simply don't matter as much and that they don't matter much inherently beyond what they achieve. The space for how to acceptably behave as a male is arguably almost as abyssmal as it was for women in the early 1900s

Yes. Yes. Yes.

If a decent movement rolls out regarding these issues and more (I haven't seen any such movement so far), a large segment of those who currently wage the feminist cultural battle to uproot damaging aspects of western culture in regards to women will be the first to support it.

Yeah.. I think I'm gonna have to reserve judgement on that. I don't reckon they'll be taking up arms for that. It seems to be all about women's rights to them.

But whining about unreality in an imaginary war between genders like r/mensrights instead of being constructive and harvesting sympathy and building bridges and understanding among different people is not going to get anyone anywhere good.

All for women's rights, provided they're all for men's rights. Equality woo.

The militant feminists, as most militant groups tend to be, are over-shooting the mark in an effort to change the culture thereby paradoxically drawing attention away from their good points and instead, attention goes to militant attitudes which grate on people (as they should!).

Blurred Lines seems to be about sex...not rape. Hell, there are so many more offensive lyrics that it's ridiculous that this song is singled out.

I agree.


An interesting note to add if I may:

I'm all for equal rights, yet I still feel a strong sense of 'chivalry'. i.e. I could never let a woman pay for the first few dates, I feel awkward if I don't hold a door open for a woman etc.

An interesting (I found it so anyway) experience I had. I took a girl to my school ball, this was earlier this year in June, so I was nearly sixteen, and she was about the same. When we went to sit down I pulled her chair out for her etc. This really upset/annoyed her. Honestly to this day don't understand why she got so annoyed at me. The only reason I can think of is that she was embarrassed.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious how easily it can be seen that way. That the song is like the essence of what is called rape culture (which isn't a culture about rape, but rather a culture that actual rapists feel validates them and their actions and normalizes their attitudes). Listening to it reminds so much of how a couple of studies indicate a large majority of rapists would not describe what they do as rape, but actually fill out a form saying they performed acts that actually are rape. They just see it as a kind of blurry line / justified in certain special cases and thus not "rape", "because rape is bad and they're not bad people". And also that most date rapists believe it's very normal.

This is why this song got latched onto so heavily, because whether or not it's intended that way, it most definitely contributes to the normalization of attitudes that people use to justify rape.

I think the reason some people don't understand is because they don't understand a very prevalent mentality among date-rapists and as such cannot recognize it in the song. Well, either that or actually have the mentality that the song projects.

well put, have a proverbial [+1]

 

[Kuu]

An interesting note to add if I may:

I'm all for equal rights, yet I still feel a strong sense of 'chivalry'. i.e. I could never let a woman pay for the first few dates, I feel awkward if I don't hold a door open for a woman etc.

An interesting (I found it so anyway) experience I had. I took a girl to my school ball, this was earlier this year in June, so I was nearly sixteen, and she was about the same. When we went to sit down I pulled her chair out for her etc. This really upset/annoyed her. Honestly to this day don't understand why she got so annoyed at me. The only reason I can think of is that she was embarrassed.

Did you do those things because you asked her if she'd like it, or you just assumed she'd like it (because obviously all women like that)? I think people rather be treated as individuals instead of some stereotyped, generalised "woman" who is helpless like a little child who can't open doors or move chairs and needs someone to do it for her. It could be argued that you did it more to please your own self, rather than her. I'd be pissed off in her position too.

You've been brainwashed by culture.

 

[BigApplePi]

wow.........

NO

No? No? No? No? No? How so this "no"?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.Yes. Yes.

 

[Cavalli]

Did you do those things because you asked her if she'd like it, or you just assumed she'd like it (because obviously all women like that)? I think people rather be treated as individuals instead of some stereotyped, generalised "woman" who is helpless like a little child who can't open doors or move chairs and needs someone to do it for her. It could be argued that you did it more to please your own self, rather than her. I'd be pissed off in her position too.

You've been brainwashed by culture.

I wouldn't call it brainwashing.. I did it for the same reason I offered her my jacket when she said she was cold? It's a nice, polite thing to do? I'd be thankful if someone pulled my chair out for me, it's a nice thing. No one stereotyped her as being helpless, and doing those things doesn't mean in any way you think women are helpless.. Why does the man pay for a meal on the first date..

(I find it acceptable if the bill is split, however I think any man who lets the woman pay on the first date should be castrated. Probably a double standard but yolo).

 

[Minuend]

While the victims of rape are not to blame, their actions often DO have a direct influence on whether or not they're raped. For example, if the victim hadn't been grinding provocatively against the rapist, the rapist probably wouldn't have got the notion that she wants the D and thus raped her.

I've never read any study, statistics correlating clothing and rape. Neither provocative behavior from women. You will need to provide a source for this.

Attitudes like these reinforces the idea that men are incapable of controlling themselves when subjected to sexual arousal. Any woman dressed lightly is something any man will be turned on and enslaved by.

True, but then most people would agree that there ARE blurred lines between consensual sex and rape. Hell, I agree with that statement. No, I don't think it's that.

There really is not. If a man or a woman is unable to consent (sleep, drugs, etc), protests or physically tries to get away- it's rape.

 

[Base groove]

I wouldn't call it brainwashing..

...

(I think any man who lets the woman pay on the first date should be castrated.)

Er,

That really is something

Can you explain why you have this belief?

 

[Cavalli]

I've never read any study, statistics correlating clothing and rape. Neither provocative behaviour from women. You will need to provide a source for this.

Attitudes like these reinforces the idea that men are incapable of controlling themselves when subjected to sexual arousal. Any woman dressed lightly is something any man will be turned on and enslaved by.

Not that men are incapable, simply that they find it harder to. Think of it as the straw that breaks the camel's back. I'm not going to find a study to show you because I honestly can't be bothered. Seems like common sense to me.

As I haven't provided a source though, feel free to completely disregard that.

There really is not. If a man or a woman is unable to consent (sleep, drugs, etc), protests or physically tries to get away- it's rape.

Sorry, but there is. What if she consents while she's drunk? What if she's in a clear, solid state of mind, and able to rationally think but under the influence? There are plenty of circumstances where legally it's rape, but in actual fact it's probably not.

Er,

That really is something

Can you explain why you have this belief?

The castration thing was an exaggeration. There's no real, logical reason why I hold that belief. It's just how I've been brought up I guess. I feel as if it's polite. I mean, if I ask a girl out to say, dinner, I should be paying for it - I'm the one that asked her there.

 

[Minuend]

Sorry, but there is. What if she consents while she's drunk? What if she's in a clear, solid state of mind, and able to rationally think but under the influence? There are plenty of circumstances where legally it's rape, but in actual fact it's probably not.

There's a difference between tipsy and wasted to the point where you are barely conscious. Tipsy consensual sex isn't illegal.

 

[Kuu]

There's no real, logical reason why I hold that belief. It's just how I've been brought up I guess.

Brainwashed by culture, I guess.

 

[Cavalli]

Someone wearing flammable clothing doesn't provoke anyone into feeling like setting said person on fire, however someone wearing a revealing outfit does provoke someone into lusting after someone. That picture is a false analogy.

There's a difference between tipsy and wasted to the point where you are barely conscious. Tipsy consensual sex isn't illegal.

I know plenty of people who can be over the limit (and thus it is rape) and think coherently. Try again.

Brainwashed by culture, I guess.

If it makes you happy -_-

 

[Minuend]

Someone wearing flammable clothing doesn't provoke anyone into feeling like setting said person on fire, however someone wearing a revealing outfit does provoke someone into lusting after someone. That picture is a false analogy.

I'm not talking about lust, I'm talking about rape. The analogy is similar to saying someone with a certain form of dressing (not wearing hijabs in some areas) is asking to get raped. The image illustrates the ridiculousness of it.

Would I be able to not set oil soaked people on fire? Yes
Would I be able to not rape someone hot like 10/10 w00w hawt? Yes

Magically, some people can be having a full fledged hard on and still be able to not rape someone! It's like omg unbelievable, only it's true! Like wat

Rape isn't about what the victim wears or not wears. It's about the mental framework of the raper. Normal, healthy humans have empathy which prevents them from violating someone who are obviously in pain.

If an empathic person walks down the street noticing a naked one, it would either run away because fear of becoming involved in something dangerous, cover the person up or similar.

I know plenty of people who can be over the limit (and thus it is rape) and think coherently. Try again.

What limit? How can someone who is so drunk they can't think coherently be under the limit where they can't think coherently?

Are you talking about a culturally set limit? Like the certain amount you can drink before you are not allowed to drive anymore? Because the driving thing is because of decreased motor skills, a limit set lower than when you lose cognitive control.

Though, it doesn't take that much alcohol to influence the brain. It just isn't noticed easily with the average person because it hasn't developed the sense of bodily self particularly well.

 

[Cavalli]

I'm not talking about lust, I'm talking about rape. The analogy is similar to saying someone with a certain form of dressing (not wearing hijabs in some areas) is asking to get raped. The image illustrates the ridiculousness of it.

Would I be able to not set oil soaked people on fire? Yes
Would I be able to not rape someone hot like 10/10 w00w hawt? Yes

Magically, some people can be having a full fledged hard on and still be able to not rape someone! It's like omg unbelievable, only it's true! Like wat

Rape isn't about what the victim wears or not wears. It's about the mental framework of the raper. Normal, healthy humans have empathy which prevents them from violating someone who are obviously in pain.

If an empathic person walks down the street noticing a naked one, it would either run away because fear of becoming involved in something dangerous, cover the person up or similar.

I think you're missing the point.
For someone to rape someone else, they already have to have something wrong mentally. So, when faced with the option of say, two women - one dressed provocatively and the other not, chances are they will lust after the provocatively dressed one more so than the other one. Usually, without the added pressure of said lust they might have been able to 'contain themselves'. With it, it's like the straw that breaks the camel's back. I'm in no way saying it's justified, I'm just saying that it does contribute. When I see a woman walking down the street dressed in 'normal' clothes I think nothing of it, however when I see a provocatively dressed woman I usually take extra time to think about her, often sexually. I move on - because my head is screwed on in that department, unlike a rapists.

A rapist probably won't move on. I'm not blaming it on the woman, I'm just pointing out that it would contribute. I've said this already in the thread. I am aware that rape is about the mindset of the raper, they're not quite right in the head for whatever reason. However, and even if it's just that it causes the rapist to notice them.

This however, only applies when rape is about sex (which yes, does happen. Do not try and say that it's always about violence and oppression). When it's about violence, it's just violence and all that's irrelevant.

What limit? How can someone who is so drunk they can't think coherently be under the limit where they can't think coherently?

Are you talking about a culturally set limit? Like the certain amount you can drink before you are not allowed to drive anymore? Because the driving thing is because of decreased motor skills, a limit set lower than when you lose cognitive control.

Though, it doesn't take that much alcohol to influence the brain. It just isn't noticed easily with the average person because it hasn't developed the sense of bodily self particularly well.

I'm talking about the law. The law that says 'if you have had THIS much to drink then any sex you have is considered ILLEGAL because you CAN NOT consent. That law. That's why I think the law is bullshit, as I mentioned I know people who can be 'over the limit' and still be able to think coherently and make decisions. Sure, perhaps they're not in a state to drive because of their decreased motor skills, but they can sure as fuck make decisions.

I had a similar experience where I started hooking up with my friend, a guy (who's bisexual), while I was drunk. I definitely don't swing that way at all, but I was drunk and horny so I did it. I ended up stopping because I wasn't really enjoying it and that was that. Technically - it was (I guess we'll have to call it sexual assault?). I was over the limit. In the morning, yeah, I regretted it a bit but I didn't feel like I'd been forced to do anything against my will (technicalities again, but you should get where I'm coming from) at all. He stopped when I asked and that was all that mattered. I made a poor decision while I was drunk, that's fuck all when compared to all the good decisions I've made while being drunk. My decision making at the time was fine - I was horny, so I hooked up with him. I consciously made the decision to do it.


That's what I'm talking about. I know it's different because there was no intercourse, but, ugh, it is similar and hopefully you can draw some parallels between it to understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Cognisant]

I think the whole rape thing's pretty simple, you ask, and of she says no then no means no, and if she's rubbing up on you and/or making out with you and continues to say no (because in such context you would continue to ask) the appropriate reaction is to get annoyed and lecture her.

The whole clothing thing is missing the real issue, teasing, some women enjoy teasing guys with sex, flirting and sending false signals to simply get attention, they want guys fawning over them, doting on them, telling them jokes, complimenting them, buying them drinks, the whole issue about sexy clothes is just alluding to the stereotype, flirts will wear whatever gets attention.

So when someone is teasing one or more sexually frustrated, possibly inebriated men, though I wouldn't say getting raped is entirely their fault it certainly seems they played a part in bringing it upon themselves, and that's why some people aren't as sympathetic towards rape victims, if they've been teased in the past and the victim fits the description of the person who teased them they can't help but think, in horror, that could have been me.

 

[redbaron]

Holy fuck the men on this forum are stupid.

Although I suppose it's to be expected in a young male anglo-centric demographic.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Holy fuck the men on this forum are stupid.

Although I suppose it's to be expected in a young male anglo-centric demographic.

Trust me, it is not worth getting involved.

 

[Cognisant]

Oh no please share your wisdom.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Cognisant. You've been doing the same woman rage spiel for years.

You're not going to be moved, but hopefully one day you'll get bored.

 

[Cavalli]

I think the whole rape thing's pretty simple, you ask, and of she says no then no means no, and if she's rubbing up on you and/or making out with you and continues to say no (because in such context you would continue to ask) the appropriate reaction is to get annoyed and lecture her.
[...]
So when someone is teasing one or more sexually frustrated, possibly inebriated men, though I wouldn't say getting raped is entirely their fault it certainly seems they played a part in bringing it upon themselves, and that's why some people aren't as sympathetic towards rape victims, if they've been teased in the past and the victim fits the description of the person who teased them they can't help but think, in horror, that could have been me.

Thank you. This is what I was trying to get at, but clearly failed so miserably in doing.

Holy fuck the men on this forum are stupid.

Although I suppose it's to be expected in a young male anglo-centric demographic.

Oh please, enlightened one, why don't you share your wisdom with us if you're so above us all? Although, if we're looking at the demographic of 'arrogant people on the internet' then statistics (definitely informal ones, of course, but I think they're accurate nonetheless) would show that, you probably don't have anything new or original to add.

They say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but honestly, I don't care - see I just crave the knowledge that you can impart upon me (you know, with your superior wisdom and all).

Spoiler

GIFSoup

Now, back to the topic perhaps?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

They say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and the highest form of intelligence.

-Oscar Wilde

If you're going to quote people far smarter and more charming than yourself then at least do it right.

 

[Cavalli]

If you're going to quote people far smarter and more charming than yourself then at least do it right.

You shouldn't speak with ignorance, we barely know each other.

In addition to that I wasn't quoting Oscar Wilde I was quoting the 'common saying'.

 

[Minuend]

I think you're missing the point.
For someone to rape someone else, they already have to have something wrong mentally. So, when faced with the option of say, two women - one dressed provocatively and the other not, chances are they will lust after the provocatively dressed one more so than the other one. Usually, without the added pressure of said lust they might have been able to 'contain themselves'. With it, it's like the straw that breaks the camel's back. I'm in no way saying it's justified, I'm just saying that it does contribute.

Actually, it's more likely they will choose the woman that appear the "weakest", who will be easier to deal with or the one who walks into a physical space less crowded.

The percentage of slutty women pressing their genitals up against men is really, really low.

In fact, rapes occurring at parties are a mere 7% of all rapes (bars 2%). (US numbers) ((Not that all women who go out are of the genital pressing type))

2/3 happens in someones home.

Spoiler

Wikipedia

The typical rape is done by an acquaintance, friend, partner in your own home or theirs.

In 47% of the cases, both people involved had been drinking. I guess drinking will be about anything from one beer to fairly more than that.

I'm talking about the law. The law that says 'if you have had THIS much to drink then any sex you have is considered ILLEGAL because you CAN NOT consent. That law. That's why I think the law is bullshit, as I mentioned I know people who can be 'over the limit' and still be able to think coherently and make decisions. Sure, perhaps they're not in a state to drive because of their decreased motor skills, but they can sure as fuck make decisions.

I don't know Australia law, you will have to quote it. Exactly what will two people having drunk sex "above the limit" be charged with?

Regardless, I wasn't really discussing laws. If two people have consensual drunk sex, it's not rape.

Technically - it was (I guess we'll have to call it sexual assault?). I was over the limit. In the morning, yeah, I regretted it a bit but I didn't feel like I'd been forced to do anything against my will (technicalities again, but you should get where I'm coming from) at all. He stopped when I asked and that was all that mattered. I made a poor decision while I was drunk, that's fuck all when compared to all the good decisions I've made while being drunk. My decision making at the time was fine - I was horny, so I hooked up with him. I consciously made the decision to do it.

That's not even close to being a sexual assault. You willingly participated and when asked, the other party stopped his actions. A lot of people can feel regret waking up from a tipsy night, it does not mean they were sexually assaulted.

 

[redbaron]

Oh please, enlightened one, why don't you share your wisdom with us if you're so above us all?

Probably for the same reason geologists don't bother trying to share their wisdom with Flat Earthers.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

I don't know you Cavalli; that is true. However you do frequently betray yourself (rather hilariously tbh) and I possess the ability of basic observation.

However, I will stop pestering you unless something even more egregiously entertaining appears.

Peace and love.

 

[Cavalli]

Actually, it's more likely they will choose the woman that appear the "weakest", who will be easier to deal with or the one who walks into a physical space less crowded.

The percentage of slutty women pressing their genitals up against men is really, really low.

In fact, rapes occurring at parties are a mere 7% of all rapes (bars 2%). (US numbers)

2/3 happens in someones home.

Spoiler

Wikipedia

The typical rape is done by an acquaintance, friend, partner in your own home or theirs.

In 47% of the cases, both people involved had been drinking. I guess drinking will be about anything from one beer to fairly more than that.

I'll concede to that.

I don't know Australia law, you will have to quote it. Exactly what will two people having drunk sex "above the limit" be charged with?

Regardless, I wasn't really discussing laws. If two people have consensual drunk sex, it's not rape.



That's not even close to being a sexual assault. You willingly participated and when asked, the other party stopped his actions. A lot of people can feel regret waking up from a tipsy night, it does not mean they were sexually assaulted.

In Australia it is against the law to have heterosexual OR homosexual sex if either partner is under 16 years of age even if you both give consent. Also, someone who is under the influence of alcohol or drugs is not able to legally give their consent to sex.

Having sex is anything that involves:

- a penis touching a vagina, anus or mouth
- an object or another part of the body coming into contact with the vagina or anus
- touching a person in a sexual way, such as touching another person's vagina, penis, anus or breasts.

This is a government website

 

[Cavalli]

I don't know you Cavalli; that is true. However you do frequently betray yourself (rather hilariously tbh) and I possess the ability of basic observation.

However, I will stop pestering you unless something even more egregiously entertaining appears.

Peace and love.

What can I say, I'm a sixteen year old learning to present my arguments properly? Shit happens - get over it. I'm glad that you find some hilarity in my actions though, it's always nice to know that I'm making the world a happier place.

Same to you~

 

[Cognisant]

Cognisant. You've been doing the same woman rage spiel for years.

You're not going to be moved, but hopefully one day you'll get bored.

And you're as militant a feminist as ever

What I said about teasing doesn't apply to all cases of rape and I never meant to imply such, rather I was explaining why society isn't uniformly sympathetic to rape victims, and the points I made in my earlier post were exaggerated to shit-stir but there's still truth to it, first world feminists do complain about some incredibly inane things and they're particularly misguided when complaining about the things men do to dote on women while they're competing for women's attentions.

Someone's being too nice to me, oh my god the inequity!
Seriously that's just stupid, especially while there's real oppression going on.

Who's doing the rage spiel really?
Because, and people correct me if I'm wrong, it would seem that you just have it in for me.

How exactly am I raging against women?

 

[Cavalli]

Probably for the same reason geologists don't bother trying to share their wisdom with Flat Earthers.

*cringe*

 

[redbaron]

first world feminists do complain about some incredibly inane things and they're particularly misguided.

You could also replace the word feminist with, 'men' and the statement would still hold true.

I find that men are more often the ones purporting misguided and inane complains than some feminist vocal minority, which is really the only place that the axioms of your ranting are applicable.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

I just think you should be smarter than this, especially by now. People aren't going to keep chalking it up to boyish immaturity forever, Cog.

Tick tock.
You have until 25 when you fall forever into the belligerently ignorant category.

 

[Latte]

I don't think anyone here disagrees with you on that people who have ingested alcohol but are still capable of consenting while knowing what that entails actually consent. There's no real blurry line in that regard.

In regards to laws written in that way, in actual practice, no one will be prosecuted for having sex with someone who is tipsy or are mildly intoxicated. The law is written that way so it's certain to cover every case where a person willfully takes advantage of someone who due to the intake of substances does not have the cognitive capacity to understand the situation or deal with the situation, either of which makes consent impossible by implication, not merely by arbitrary definition.

Judges and the police have to consider the intent of a law when they consider whether a case should be put to trial or not, and the intent of the law is also considered regarding whether a judgement should apply.
This is standard and is a crucial part of law interpretation in legal systems that can mean a case that gets the go-ahead or verdict from a lower court ultimately getting invalidated by a higher court.

 

[Cognisant]

Aww, your personal attacks tell me you care.

You have until 25 when you fall forever into the belligerently ignorant category.

Sweet two more years of getting away with it

 

[Brontosaurie]

I possess the ability of basic observation.

how many of my yuh goh cards does it remove

how much damage does it inflict

 

[Deleted member 1424]

It removes all your yu-gi-oh card and does ALL the damage.

I'm king of games bitch!