Here comes the Fe

[Duxwing]

Dear Forum,

Great... here come Fe and Fi again-- oh,look, it's a twin-tailed whip this time! how creative-- this time they want me to find a junior prom date. Ideally, I can somehow get out of having to carry out this mortifying high school mating ritual; otherwise, let's make the date painless if not pleasant. So, if there's any way that you all can help me get these two monkeys off my back, I'd much appreciate it.

-Duxwing

 

[Moocow]

"They"? Just don't go. I don't think anyone can force you to go to a prom.

 

[Duxwing]

"They"? Just don't go. I don't think anyone can force you to go to a prom.

I was trying to be humorous by personifying my emotions and turning emotional motivation to find a date into physical intimidation by two psychopathic torturers; hence 'they'. With that settled, any ideas?

-Duxwing

 

[SpaceYeti]

Um... well, if you actually desire a date, just find one. If your feelings desire a date, then you do, since they're your feelings. It's not about ignoring your feelings, it's about integrating them into a functional whole. You must admit to and deal with every facet of your own self, even the parts you don't like.

 

[nexion]

I was trying to be humorous by personifying my emotions and turning emotional motivation to find a date into physical intimidation by two psychopathic torturers; hence 'they'. With that settled, any ideas?

-Duxwing

Humour? Personification? These inferior ideas have no place on an INTP forum. Be gone!

 

[koan]

I tend to decide these matters by deciding what will cause me most regret later in life. I chose to not go to any proms and I have not regretted it. My kid has gone to one prom and regrets it to this day. Nevertheless, she is deep in plans for her next one. A prom is a mental snapshot in time. You can do that without playing into stereotypes. It's not like going out to a pub because someone talked you into it. It's a moment people will want to discuss with you if you also buy into going to school reunions.

 

[snafupants]

I tend to decide these matters by deciding what will cause me most regret later in life. I chose to not go to any proms and I have not regretted it.

How do you know that you wouldn't have had a better time going?! Are you sure you would have regretted going?! How can you be sure? That logic really doesn't seem airtight.

 

[pernoctator]

^ I think you read too much into that. It doesn't say that not regretting not going was the cause of deciding what will cause regret.

 

[Kuu]

Don't go to the prom. Problem solved.

 

[nexion]

How do you know that you wouldn't have had a better time going?! Are you sure you would have regretted going?! How can you be sure? That logic really doesn't seem airtight.

A binary choice with a ternary outcome. It doesn't seem koan makes a distinction between different shades of regret or non-regret. Therefore, because he has not had regret in his past decisions, they were good decisions, regardless of whether or not he would have regretted making the other decision.

The only flaw in his logic is that he can't gauge whether he regretted some action or not until after he has performed it.

 

[snafupants]

^ I think you read too much into that. It doesn't say that not regretting not going was the cause of deciding what will cause regret.

@pernoctator

The setup is inherently flawed because one cannot truly know whether the event will cause subsequent compunction or nostalgia without some prior intimidation, first-hand or otherwise, of the event. I guess you could say you didn't like basketball because it looked boring or overly physical but that's pretty flimsy proof to predicate anything upon. It would be like saying outer space isn't fun without ever going into orbit; you haven't the experience to make that call. The evidence provided certainly didn't convince me that Koan understood both options beforehand. Reading too much into that? I would contend others aren't reading enough into it. To me, this looks like a clearcut case of confirmation bias. Koan can pretend like the right decision was made without risking anything, least of all time, and by discounting, perhaps viable and enjoyable, alternatives.

 

[The Gopher]

I think he is rationalizing the fact he didn't go by assuming it would be worse than what he did. But the thing is you can only regret something like that if you want to. (disregarding possible murders and death) This is why I will almost always turn up to anything because it can hardly ever be boring or cause regret. If it turns out you don't like the prom you can always drift off in your mind somewhere or... something...

However your Fe isn't a psychopath! You have to love and care for it! Cuddle it at night and it will leave you alone when you want it to. Use it to the point it gets tired and decides it should really sleep now.

But the only way to get a monkey off your back (without the use of weapons) Is to tire it out till it falls off. While you can use weapons to suppress the monkey you will likely find you will have annoyed the pack of monkeys and they will search for revenge at the next possible moment.

 

[snafupants]

I think he is rationalizing the fact he didn't go by assuming it would be worse than what he did. But the thing is you can only regret something like that if you want to.

You almost had it. Those last three words killed you.

 

[The Gopher]

You almost had it.

Aww I thought I covered everything!
Edit: Stop editing like that!

 

[snafupants]

Aww I thought I covered everything!
Edit: Stop editing like that!

Going back to Koan's original postulate, without experiencing both options, you can't say which alternative would cause more regret later.

I tend to decide these matters by deciding what will cause me most regret later in life.

Sorry Charlie but there's no way you can really decide without evidence.

I chose to not go to any proms and I have not regretted it.

See, that wasn't the premise. You phrased it "what will cause me most regret" later. It's impossible to say because you only experienced one event, namely staying home.

There's nothing to compare staying home to...because you didn't go to prom. It's confirmation bias par excellence.

Edit: Never!

 

[nexion]

Going back to Koan's original postulate, without experiencing both options, you can't say which alternative would cause more regret later.



Sorry Charlie but there's no way you can really decide without evidence.



See, that wasn't the premise. You phrased it "what will cause me most regret" later. It's impossible to say because you only experienced one event, namely staying home.

There's nothing to compare staying home to...because you didn't go to prom.

Edit: Never!

Oh, he did say 'most,' didn't he? Well, damn.

 

[snafupants]

Oh, he did say 'most,' didn't he? Well, damn.

At least someone sees it.

The options are actually mutually exclusive within the confines of the scenario's logic, which precludes comparison post-decision.

In other words, Koan can't go to prom and not to go prom and then juxtapose the subsequent compunction. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[nexion]

At least someone sees it.

The options are actually mutually exclusive within the confines of the scenario's logic, which precludes comparison post-decision.

In other words, Koan can't go to prom and not to go prom and then juxtapose the subsequent compunction. It doesn't make any sense.

That's what I said in my post, I just never saw originally that he said 'most.'

 

[Coolydudey]

@pernoctator

The setup is inherently flawed because one cannot truly know whether the event will cause subsequent compunction or nostalgia without some prior intimidation, first-hand or otherwise, of the event. I guess you could say you didn't like basketball because it looked boring or overly physical but that's pretty flimsy proof to predicate anything upon. It would be like saying outer space isn't fun without ever going into orbit; you haven't the experience to make that call. The evidence provided certainly didn't convince me that Koan understood both options beforehand. Reading too much into that? I would contend others aren't reading enough into it. To me, this looks like a clearcut case of confirmation bias. Koan can pretend like the right decision was made without risking anything, least of all time, and by discounting, perhaps viable and enjoyable, alternatives.

Every point you mention is fine, but you are missing (at least in my opinion) the bigger picture: we act based on assumptions and predictions constantly and every day. Your prediction that you aren't just going to get fired from work tomorrow (unless you're in trouble!) is inherently not certainly going to hold.

The way to minimise the error of predictions for this type of situation would be to have experienced both. But in any case, one can not be completely certain about anything that lies in the future, or more generally, anything they haven't specifically experienced.

 

[snafupants]

Every point you mention is fine, but you are missing (at least in my opinion) the bigger picture: we act based on assumptions and predictions constantly and every day. Your prediction that you aren't just going to get fired from work tomorrow (unless you're in trouble!) is inherently not certainly going to hold.

I never claimed to be omniscient or clairvoyant. That's not what this is about. The issue is putatively about compunction levels between two events and the impossibility of comparison between a non-event and an event proper. Past not future.

Edit: For that matter it's about the impossibility of comparing two events that cancel each other out. You can't drive and not drive a car at the same time.

You can look back and say that driving the car, which you did, is non-regretable but you can't say it's less regrettable than not driving at that same period...because you drove the car.

The way to minimise the error of predictions for this type of situation would be to have experienced both. But in any case, one can not be completely certain about anything that lies in the future, or more generally, anything they haven't specifically experienced.

It's not about minimizing error or predicting anything. This case is very specific, and it concerns hindsight and personal appraisal. Koan claimed that one event produced less compunction than another event and I called bluff because Koan only experienced one event.

 

[pernoctator]

@pernoctator

The setup is inherently flawed because one cannot truly know whether the event will cause subsequent compunction or nostalgia without some prior intimidation, first-hand or otherwise, of the event. I guess you could say you didn't like basketball because it looked boring or overly physical but that's pretty flimsy proof to predicate anything upon. It would be like saying outer space isn't fun without ever going into orbit; you haven't the experience to make that call. The evidence provided certainly didn't convince me that Koan understood both options beforehand. Reading too much into that? I would contend others aren't reading enough into it. To me, this looks like a clearcut case of confirmation bias. Koan can pretend like the right decision was made without risking anything, least of all time, and by discounting, perhaps viable and enjoyable, alternatives.

Yes, you read too much into it by assuming that the entire rationale was contained within the post. Why were you expecting koan to provide "evidence" at all to "convince" you of a personal choice? You were criticizing the logic when the logic itself was never actually presented.

All you're really saying here is that possible futures are uncertain so all choices are imperfect, which is already self-evident.

 

[snafupants]

All you're really saying here is that possible futures are uncertain so all choices are imperfect, which is already self-evident.

@pernoctator

Possible futures?! Imperfect choices? Not at all.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely dense.

In your case there might not be a great difference.

You were criticizing the logic when the logic itself was never actually presented.

I tend to decide these matters by deciding what will cause me most regret later in life. I chose to not go to any proms and I have not regretted it.

That's an illogical presupposition/deduction as evidenced by my previous posts.

 

[pernoctator]

Not at all.

Thanks for this enlightening clarification.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or genuinely dense.

In your case there might not be a great difference.

Did you really have to spend 5 minutes editing your post twice just to perfect this lame insult?

That's an illogical presupposition as evidenced by my previous posts.

You're still presuming that the bit you quoted was actually intended as a logical inference.

 

[snafupants]

Thanks for this enlightening clarification.




Did you really have to spend 5 minutes editing your post twice just to perfect this lame insult?




You're still presuming that the bit you quoted was actually intended as a logical inference.

I'm not getting into this with you. The point's been made and I still feel you're an idiot troll.

 

[Words]

I think It's just a matter of values. My disvalue, and evidently some of you share this disvalue, for socio-emotional constructs/norms such as these in part related to heavy disinclination related to Inferior Fe makes me think that going is just plain stupid and inevitably regretful. But to OP, it's not a matter of simply not going, he actually wants to go.

 

[Coolydudey]

I never claimed to be omniscient or clairvoyant. That's not what this is about. The issue is putatively about compunction levels between two events and the impossibility of comparison between a non-event and an event proper. Past not future.

Edit: For that matter it's about the impossibility of comparing two events that cancel each other out. You can't drive and not drive a car at the same time.

You can look back and say that driving the car, which you did, is non-regretable but you can't say it's less regrettable than not driving at that same period...because you drove the car.



It's not about minimizing error or predicting anything. This case is very specific, and it concerns hindsight and personal appraisal. Koan claimed that one event produced less compunction than another event and I called bluff because Koan only experienced one event.

I never claimed that you claimed so. Just pointing stuff out.

As for the last paragraph (last sentence): I just said how you can minimise the possible error in such a statement. In absolutes, as you say, you can't know (which is why I said every point you made was fine), but in hindsight you can say: well, it is most likely I would have preffered X event, and you can maximise the probability of that statement holding in different ways (one of which I suggested). Koan's phrasing did imply absolutes on the other hand.

 

[snafupants]

I never claimed that you claimed so. Just pointing stuff out.

As for the last paragraph (last sentence): I just said how you can minimise the possible error in such a statement. In absolutes, as you say, you can't know (which is why I said every point you made was fine), but in hindsight you can say: well, it is most likely I would have preffered X event, and you can maximise the probability of that statement holding in different ways (one of which I suggested). Koan's phrasing did imply absolutes on the other hand.

Fair enough. The original contention still stands - there's no way to be sure. You can conjecture. I will say this - there are some events - e.g., slitting your wrists - in which there's an intimation - i.e., pain has felt unpleasant in the past - that slitting your wrists might be suffering-rich or somehow regrettable. Of course, there's still no way to predicate the remorse on anything substantial without first-hand experimentation but...I really do not feel like carrying this point on.

 

[Coolydudey]

Fair enough. The original contention still stands - there's no way to be sure. You can conjecture. I will say this - there are some events - e.g., slitting your wrists - in which there's an intimation - i.e., pain has felt unpleasant in the past - that slitting your wrists might be suffering-rich or somehow regrettable. Of course, there's still no way to predicate the remorse on anything substantial without first-hand experimentation but...I really do not feel like carrying this point on.

Yes, I think we should cease derailing the thread

OP:did you go?

 

[Duxwing]

I never claimed to be omniscient or clairvoyant. That's not what this is about. The issue is putatively about compunction levels between two events and the impossibility of comparison between a non-event and an event proper. Past not future.

Edit: For that matter it's about the impossibility of comparing two events that cancel each other out. You can't drive and not drive a car at the same time.

You can look back and say that driving the car, which you did, is non-regretable but you can't say it's less regrettable than not driving at that same period...because you drove the car.



It's not about minimizing error or predicting anything. This case is very specific, and it concerns hindsight and personal appraisal. Koan claimed that one event produced less compunction than another event and I called bluff because Koan only experienced one event.

This is why I love INTP forum: here, with regard to logic, there is no kill like overkill. Your reasoning was crystal clear and perfect; I understand your point completely and agree with it fully: one cannot make a choice between two mutually exclusive options based upon a predicted outcome of either option without prior knowledge of the same! Genius!

-Duxwing

 

[koan]

Obviously you can't know the future and you can't experience both choices. That's what makes choice a pain in the ass and why Hamlet was my favourite play.

What you can do is postulate, based on past experiences, which outcome you are most likely to experience. In my case, knowing the other people who were going to be there, I postulated that based on my past experiences with them they may or may not like me more for my having gone but I would definitely like them less. So I didn't go.

I might have had a good time but I couldn't imagine I'd have a good time so I am left with no regrets.

Evidence can not be provided in such matters. You are only faced with whether or not you will imagine you missed something. In my case, I did not.

eta: why do people insist I'm a guy?

 

[koan]

Giggling now because... wtf? How am I to, or why should I, produce evidence that my feelings are justified? I'm INT fucking P

No one I've ever met has been able to figure out why I don't feel the same way they do so why would I presume any of you would? I'm just telling how I made my decision.

eta: oh, there's one guy but his wife won't let me talk to him anymore because "I make him manic"