How the hell can I relate to an SJ?

[this is my username]

This is something that I have been working on nearly since I discovered psychological type identification. My boss and one of my coworkers (also my roommate) are ESFJs. It is only professional to get along with them as best I can, but that quickly becomes a sort of marathon when your job keeps you on the road with them, and only two others, for about six or seven months out of the year. This means, with the exception of sharing a room, we live together.

I feel like the best way to tackle the problem is to start with maintaining conversations with them. This is easy enough if you stick to subject matter they find interesting. The snag I’ve hit in this plan is; A- The subject matter they find interesting is normally fart jokes, talking about television or movies, TALKING ABOUT THEMSELVES(often bullshit), ect. B- It is seemingly impossible to talk about what interests me eg, literature, psychology, alternative politics/ history, blah, blah. blah. I go the distance again and again, participating in their conversations, taking interest in their lives and interests, listening to that intolerable droning day in and day out. Ha ha ha, but try and talk to them about anything beautiful, discuss the overtones of a recent situation or GOD FORBID!!! try to have a gentlemanly debate on one subject or another.

The relationships are touch and go. I can get along with them, sometimes for weeks on end, although I always reach that point where I can take no more. I keep to myself, hole up in my hotel room after work, sometimes for weeks on end, and become resentful.

Any advie would be much appreciated. I’m sure that somebody will want to ask why I care about what others think of me, though, I assure you, that it will only do me good to figure out this problem. I know that many people have a high opinion of themselves, but I honestly feel that, out of my three co-workers, I am the hardest working, have the most to contribute to the company, and am the most capable of holding a leadership position. This, most assuredly, has been noticed by my boss, though every time I feel that I am close to moving up, his ENFJ-ness and my INTP-ness widens the gap between myself and that higher position.
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

You don't have to be friends with them. Just be cordial and entertain them.

 

[xbox]

I don't have any "getting along" advice, its more like "tolerating" advice. The only time I would tolerate them was if I had to, otherwise I would never put in the effort to get along with them. Im not sure why anyone would want to do that. SJ's are set in their ways, they arent open to different perspectives.

 

[this is my username]

You don't have to be friends with them. Just be cordial and entertain them.

Yes, this is logical and it works all too well in keeping them happy. I suppose what I'm asking is if anybody might have an idea on where I might find some common ground with them. I could very well deal with not getting along with them at all, but I would very much like an office job.

 

[Shadowtree]

Let them talk about themselves. That way they won't have any ammo on you, but you'll get a great insight into them. Perhaps you'll get lucky and they'll have some hobby or something in common with you. Deep conversations are only for deep people, I know its hard, but it might be best if you avoid that route with them unless they instigate one. They won't though, and if they did, it would likely still be rather shallow for your tastes.
Then again. There's exceptions to every rule.

 

[BigApplePi]

SJs or Social Styles?

thisismyusername. You refer to SJ's. You picked the classification. When I was working they provided optional lectures on work style people strategies. I liked it because it was so theoretical. Check it out. It's called, "Social Style Strategies."

They divide people up into only four types which makes it simple. They are: Driver, Analytical, Expressive, and Amiable. After defining them they say how to get along. First find out what you are. (I am an Analytical.) Then determine whom you want to get along with. Go to page 49. There they tell you how to deal with these types. Let me know what you think and if you like it. It's different than Myers-Briggs.

http://www.softed.com/resources/Docs/SSW0.4.pdf

Page 13 has the Myers-Briggs translation. I don't say following this is easy, but to me it appears these things will work.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

thisismyusername. You refer to SJ's. You picked the classification. When I was working they provided optional lectures on work style people strategies. I liked it because it was so theoretical. Check it out. It's called, "Social Style Strategies."

They divide people up into only four types which makes it simple. They are: Driver, Analytical, Expressive, and Amiable. After defining them they say how to get along. First find out what you are. (I am an Analytical.) Then determine whom you want to get along with. Go to page 49. There they tell you how to deal with these types. Let me know what you think and if you like it. It's different than Myers-Briggs.

http://www.softed.com/resources/Docs/SSW0.4.pdf

Page 13 has the Myers-Briggs translation. I don't say following this is easy, but to me it appears these things will work.

Which one is the passenger?

 

[MissQuote]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

thisismyusername. You refer to SJ's. You picked the classification. When I was working they provided optional lectures on work style people strategies. I liked it because it was so theoretical. Check it out. It's called, "Social Style Strategies."

They divide people up into only four types which makes it simple. They are: Driver, Analytical, Expressive, and Amiable. After defining them they say how to get along. First find out what you are. (I am an Analytical.) Then determine whom you want to get along with. Go to page 49. There they tell you how to deal with these types. Let me know what you think and if you like it. It's different than Myers-Briggs.

http://www.softed.com/resources/Docs/SSW0.4.pdf

Page 13 has the Myers-Briggs translation. I don't say following this is easy, but to me it appears these things will work.

My friend is really into this, she put on a class that I attended to help her with having enough numbers for the class to work. It was really interactive and I found it insightful, but just a skimming of the surface at the same time. Since it was geared mostly towards learning to communicate with others it was okay however, its purpose was not to understand whole personalities, just how to better communicate with general categories of people.

Though she tried to push me into the Amiable group (she called it the Supporter, not Amiable) everyone in that group were obvious feelers, some almost weepy, and very interested in talking about how they felt and others felt in this or that interaction. She was all surprised that I was an Analytical. It was interesting that she had that preconceived idea of me after knowing me for five years, and me not ever acting like the people that were those sorts of communicators. And the reason I tell that part is because she is an ESFJ. So yeah, they do have some interesting conclusions they come to and then stick with despite subtle evidence to the contrary, I think it takes overt obvious evidence to change their minds. Best to just go with the flow of what they are doing unless it is truly making you miserable, then it is likely going to be up to you to address it in a way that they can understand.

You could try showing interest when they do mention things that are of a deeper nature, everyone has something they think or feel about that is more than surface deep, encourage them to speak more about it by giving them an active listening ear. You may have to bite your tongue on some of the things they opine, but you could look at it as a social experiment, learning the views of those that are very different from you on an intimate level so as to understand people better. (You'll be like a SPY!) At the least you will get to listen to something more interesting than fart jokes and celebrity gossip.

 

[EditorOne]

You might want to ask for ways to keep your sanity. I went to a funeral Saturday and while the funeral was OK, the "wake" afterwards where everyone gathers at the home of the deceased to eat was astonishingly dreadful. The woman died at 52 of brain cancer, and the conversation in the group I was trapped behind was on health food, vitamins, etc., an exhausting litany of how to eat clay to remove heavy metals from your body, on and on and on and on, half of it pseudo science, the other half blatant cribbing from product advertising, all details delivered as if they were incredible insights into human health.
If you are in a car with these people I suggest you not drive. The temptation to put it into a big oak could become overwhelming. I only had to spend two hours with this outfit to be half out of my mind.
Other than that, the suggestion about not reinventing the wheel but taking note of existing work and best practices in exactly the situation you find yourself is very good imho.
The insight that most people will like you if you let them talk about themselves, by the way, is the key paradigm for the famous book "How to Win Friends and Influence People." INTPs often get there simply by being too bored to do more than ask an occasional question in any given conversation, but it creates the same effect. Someone else is talking and it's usually about themselves and you're not talking about yourself, so they're quite happy and think you're quite a guy, hale fellow well met, etc. Or girl.

 

[DetachedRetina]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

Though she tried to push me into the Amiable group (she called it the Supporter, not Amiable) everyone in that group were obvious feelers, some almost weepy, and very interested in talking about how they felt and others felt in this or that interaction. She was all surprised that I was an Analytical. It was interesting that she had that preconceived idea of me after knowing me for five years, and me not ever acting like the people that were those sorts of communicators.

The only other INTP I know in real life is female and she seems to have this problem. Us males are lucky and are allowed to appear "cold" most of the time I think. Although few people have ever been both sexes or genders, I find most conversations about gender differences ending in frustration.

At OP. I find when dealing with SJs that what they like me when I boil down some idea into a simple joke or observation as much as possible. I basically try to be Jerry Seinfeld around them, never going into too much depth or length, playing the "laid back" guy who cracks a couple of jokes once in a while. You have to bring books and a journal to keep your sanity probably.

 

[BigApplePi]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

Which one is the passenger?

Any who accepts a ride.

 

[BigApplePi]

You might want to ask for ways to keep your sanity. I went to a funeral Saturday and while the funeral was OK, the "wake" afterwards where everyone gathers at the home of the deceased to eat was astonishingly dreadful. The woman died at 52 of brain cancer, and the conversation in the group I was trapped behind was on health food, vitamins, etc., an exhausting litany of how to eat clay to remove heavy metals from your body, on and on and on and on, half of it pseudo science, the other half blatant cribbing from product advertising, all details delivered as if they were incredible insights into human health.
If you are in a car with these people I suggest you not drive. The temptation to put it into a big oak could become overwhelming. I only had to spend two hours with this outfit to be half out of my mind.
Other than that, the suggestion about not reinventing the wheel but taking note of existing work and best practices in exactly the situation you find yourself is very good imho.
The insight that most people will like you if you let them talk about themselves, by the way, is the key paradigm for the famous book "How to Win Friends and Influence People." INTPs often get there simply by being too bored to do more than ask an occasional question in any given conversation, but it creates the same effect. Someone else is talking and it's usually about themselves and you're not talking about yourself, so they're quite happy and think you're quite a guy, hale fellow well met, etc. Or girl.

E1 the thing I used to dread was when locked up with some person and couldn't get them to talk about themselves. Whatever they said sailed right over my head anyway. If they asked me a question, I couldn't talk about myself. I had no idea what the answer was. Deadly and embarrassing silence. This hasn't happened to me lately. I must be unconsciously avoiding it at all costs, lol.

 

[MissQuote]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

The only other INTP I know in real life is female and she seems to have this problem. Us males are lucky and are allowed to appear "cold" most of the time I think. Although few people have ever been both sexes or genders, I find most conversations about gender differences ending in frustration.

At OP. I find when dealing with SJs that what they like me when I boil down some idea into a simple joke or observation as much as possible. I basically try to be Jerry Seinfeld around them, never going into too much depth or length, playing the "laid back" guy who cracks a couple of jokes once in a while. You have to bring books and a journal to keep your sanity probably.

I seem to come off as though I am pissed off at people, i guess, when I look at them but am not actually interacting with them, like looking at them from across a room or something. So many women have asked my husband or friends if I am mad at them, or don't like them, after I have been there. It is weird, because usually I wasn't even thinking about them at all, let alone developing any feelings or ideas about them. The other thing, I have heard more than anything else in my entire life, since young childhood, is "Smile!" "Why don't you smile?" "Cheer up and Smile!" "You should Smile more!" that and "what's wrong?" Nothing is wrong I was just thinking. I'm not playing coy or some game trying to get you to pry (persist) say that either. If you don't get off my back about it we may have a problem.

My husband is an SJ, as is that friend I mentioned. I'd say they both definitely have some pretty deep ideas, but they tend to be more assertive type ideas when they open up about them. My husband is ISTJ so he tends to just be more quiet in general, friend ESFJ, (although I think it is possible she might be more of a perceiver than others with the judging function, just well rounded maybe) she is very outgoing and open, but is selective with who she opens up about her more intellectual things, (and does tend to make weird leaps of logic that don't quite jive with me all the time but I just let them be instead of harass her about them) she actually gets frustrated with herself for he tendency to develop friendships too fast with people who can't hold an intelligent conversation in the end and then she feels stuck with them in her life. Maybe these types are just more selective in general with who they let in for the deeper conversations, easier to joke and keep people at bay unless they have proven themselves worthy and/or interesting. Or I am just lucky to know some great people of all types. Or I just see the best in people I like as worth the bother of the icky parts. I don't know. ramble. ramble.

 

[Peripheral Visionary]

The relationships are touch and go. I can get along with them, sometimes for weeks on end, although I always reach that point where I can take no more. I keep to myself, hole up in my hotel room after work, sometimes for weeks on end, and become resentful.

I think you are doing as well as can be expected. No need to resent them, they are just being themselves. The resentment only hurts you.

For short periods of time, I get along with S-J's by becoming one. I listen to their style of talking and word choice, and I mimic it. I see if I can lead or redirect the conversation. I ask lots of questions. Sometimes I will ask questions that I already know the answer to, and then tune out and think of something else, then later check to see if they noticed anything or were too involved with what they were saying to see that I wasn't even paying attention.

But you can't do this forever. Retreat and recharge, and live to fight another day.

 

[DetachedRetina]

Yeah, I realized my post sounded pretty derisive towards SJ types. What I meant, or perhaps didn't and mean only now, is that there seems to be a communication mismatch when I start thinking aloud around sensor types. If I keep things short and sweet, or relatively on the surface, they tend to get what I'm saying. Not to say sensors can't be deep, but if I start pondering and throwing out hypotheses based on hunches without factual evidence and making seemingly random analogies they look at me like I'm nutty. I think I might enjoy an SJ pen pal though. Because when I do get different perspectives it's great. But I suspect we'd both need the time to frame our thoughts in a way understandable to the other. If only I were a more effective communicator.

 

[EditorOne]

There are varying degrees of intelligence among all types. It makes for some distinction between whether S's are talking about mechanical engineering details on the new World Trade Center or hair style details and J-Lo's fat butt. There's chatter, and there's chatter. Judging from the magazine covers at the supermarket checkout line, there are a lot of S's with 75 IQ.

 

[Architect]

the conversation in the group I was trapped behind was on health food, vitamins, etc., an exhausting litany of how to eat clay to remove heavy metals from your body, on and on and on and on, half of it pseudo science, the other half blatant cribbing from product advertising, all details delivered as if they were incredible insights into human health.

I don't find those kinds of conversations boring, I'll dive right in. Either I'm right or they are and it's fun to either learn something (and there's always something to be learned), or the schadenfreude of proving them wrong. Anyhow I wonder if those people you talked to were 'S', I never knew an S that acts like that - only 'N's.

The insight that most people will like you if you let them talk about themselves, by the way, is the key paradigm for the famous book "How to Win Friends and Influence People." INTPs often get there simply by being too bored to do more than ask an occasional question in any given conversation, but it creates the same effect. Someone else is talking and it's usually about themselves and you're not talking about yourself, so they're quite happy and think you're quite a guy, hale fellow well met, etc. Or girl.

One huge fault of certain ESxx types is the inability to stop talking about themselves. ESFP's and ESFJ's have this problem big time! I've known three for sure and all of them couldn't help stop yapping about themselves. SJ's in general are good conversationalists, but they don't like to 'go deep'. Which is fine with me, where does it say that conversations can only be about deep subjects?

 

[BigApplePi]

there are a lot of S's with 75 IQ.

For those of you with IQ's of 125, if it wasn't for the Bell Curve, there would no one at 75 to pair with and your IQ would be a lot lower.

 

[perkins]

There are varying degrees of intelligence among all types. It makes for some distinction between whether S's are talking about mechanical engineering details on the new World Trade Center or hair style details and J-Lo's fat butt. There's chatter, and there's chatter. Judging from the magazine covers at the supermarket checkout line, there are a lot of S's with 75 IQ.

lol

 

[this is my username]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

thisismyusername. You refer to SJ's. You picked the classification. When I was working they provided optional lectures on work style people strategies. I liked it because it was so theoretical. Check it out. It's called, "Social Style Strategies."

They divide people up into only four types which makes it simple. They are: Driver, Analytical, Expressive, and Amiable. After defining them they say how to get along. First find out what you are. (I am an Analytical.) Then determine whom you want to get along with. Go to page 49. There they tell you how to deal with these types. Let me know what you think and if you like it. It's different than Myers-Briggs.

http://www.softed.com/resources/Docs/SSW0.4.pdf

Page 13 has the Myers-Briggs translation. I don't say following this is easy, but to me it appears these things will work.

I am always interested in learning about different systems. This one seemed to haave carl jungs original personality groupings, which if i am not misteaken, would be NT, NF, SF, ST, as opposed to Briggs's NT, NF, SP, SJ. While the information was general, intentionally i believe, I did find some new information for consideration.

I did find the advice on how to deal with each type to be insightful; The driver like to be presented with information with information that deals with a present situation and where he feels as though he comes out a winner. As for the expressives, it said that would work well to explain an idea with an anecdote they can relate to.

Thanks for the link

 

[this is my username]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

I seem to come off as though I am pissed off at people, i guess, when I look at them but am not actually interacting with them, like looking at them from across a room or something. So many women have asked my husband or friends if I am mad at them, or don't like them, after I have been there. It is weird, because usually I wasn't even thinking about them at all, let alone developing any feelings or ideas about them. The other thing, I have heard more than anything else in my entire life, since young childhood, is "Smile!" "Why don't you smile?" "Cheer up and Smile!" "You should Smile more!" that and "what's wrong?" Nothing is wrong I was just thinking. I'm not playing coy or some game trying to get you to pry (persist) say that either. If you don't get off my back about it we may have a problem. QUOTE]


Does anybody ever tell you to 'take it easy'? It seems like i get this all the time when im at the gas station or the grocery store. annoying

 

[BigApplePi]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

I am always interested in learning about different systems. This one seemed to haave carl jungs original personality groupings, which if i am not misteaken, would be NT, NF, SF, ST, as opposed to Briggs's NT, NF, SP, SJ.

The thing about Social Style Strategies that makes it different from Myers-Briggs and the other ones I know is it helps you in how to deal with people more smoothly. That is, it is about ACTION (interaction), not description. As examples,

1. Driver - They do like to be allowed to say what you can do, but they don't like to be told what to do,

2. Expressive - They like to be allowed to express themselves, but don't like their style cramped.

3. Amiable - They like friendly interaction, but not personal attack.

4. Analytical - They like to be allowed to think things over, but don't like to be pushed into deciding hurriedly.

For me this treatment is difficult if only because they have to be identified first.

 

[this is my username]

Re: SJs or Social Styles?

The thing about Social Style Strategies that makes it different from Myers-Briggs and the other ones I know is it helps you in how to deal with people more smoothly. That is, it is about ACTION (interaction), not description. As examples,

1. Driver - They do like to be allowed to say what you can do, but they don't like to be told what to do,

2. Expressive - They like to be allowed to express themselves, but don't like their style cramped.

3. Amiable - They like friendly interaction, but not personal attack.

4. Analytical - They like to be allowed to think things over, but don't like to be pushed into deciding hurriedly.

For me this treatment is difficult if only because they have to be identified first.

From the sources at the bottom of the page it appears that this system was based, in part, on the jung and briggs models, since half the books are written on these.

I dont know if youve read 'Gifts Differing' by isabel briggs myers and 'please understand me 2' by david kersey, but the four groups are remarkingly similar to the groups discussed in those books.

You may have trouble placing people you know in these groups,because it is unlikely for any one person to have all or most of the personality traits listed for any one group, and rather likely to have a number of traits from more than one other. There doesnt appear to be much room to narrow much down.
am i wrong?