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Partnership Rights: Spanned from: INTP Sexual Orientation

Opinion on the thread OP:

  • They should have equal rights to everything, Including this

    Votes: 23 71.9%
  • They should have the right to do this

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • They should |not| have the right to do this

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • They should be controlled but It is possible

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • They should have no actual rights

    Votes: 2 6.3%

  • Total voters
    32

Ex-User (9086)

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What is your opinion on the homosexual partnership having the right to adopt=>raise children?
And the range of rights in general.
And/Or, please discuss.

edit:
Afterwards what can be expanded:
Is any approved couple allowed to adopt children?

Or is any approved individual allowed to adopt children?

What is the benefit of a hetero then homo sexual couples beyond the institutional care?

Is it so that the benefit of a single man adopting would also be higher than institutional care?
 
Last edited:

Void

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they should have the same rights as anyone else.
 

Turniphead

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Voted for the first option.

Rights are a silly concept. But people shouldn't be treated differently because of something that is currently of no real consequence to how a society functions.

I understand that in a historical context, exclusively homosexual relations would have had a negative impact on a small groups survival. But now? Besides tradition, in what way does it matter, at all? :confused:
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Rights are a silly concept. But people shouldn't be treated differently because of something that is currently of no real consequence to how a society functions.
I agree, however we are relating to the way the society is organised now.

I think that there should be no laws or rights that are set for partnership, only for individuals.

If an individual, or a "healthy/able" one, has the right to raise a child, as I think one should and effectively has, then there should be no requirement for adoption process to have two parents.

Then it comes to the opposite, what is a difference for a child with a single parent and a child that is under institutional care.
I understand that in a historical context, exclusively homosexual relations would have had a negative impact on a small groups survival. But now? Besides tradition, in what way does it matter, at all?
Well this is a very difficult thing to estimate. I would say that nowadays single individual impact is very small and so is the impact of minor trends and ideas.

I would like to see how this works in small, ideally closed, communities/societies and what is the result.

Could it be that parentage is obsolete? What is best?
 

QuickTwist

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This is a hard pole to vote in given its premise. You must consider the possible effect(s) this could have on an individual who is raised by a homosexual couple. I would say the majority of individuals raised by a homosexual couple would be straight.
 

redbaron

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This is a hard pole to vote in given its premise. You must consider the possible effect(s) this could have on an individual who is raised by a homosexual couple. I would say the majority of individuals raised by a homosexual couple would be straight.

So?
 

Goku

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who else is going to adopt all the homeless children?

I say they are good for society
 

QuickTwist

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So the individual may make it their priority to not be like their parents... maybe this is not such a bad thing.

P.S. I don't know why you are attacking me RB. Explain, please.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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who else is going to adopt all the homeless children?

I say they are good for society
So the question would be:
Is any approved couple allowed to adopt children?
Or is any approved individual allowed to adopt children?

What is the benefit of a hetero then homo sexual couples beyond the institutional care?

Is it so that the benefit of a single man adopting would also be higher than institutional care?
 

Ninety-Fourth

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I don't know whether there are any adverse effects from being raised by homosexuals, but it is very likely that having no family at all is worse. Therefore, it's better if homosexual couples have a right to adopt children.
 

QuickTwist

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I would say that is a matter of opinion, but a valid one. It seems that your premise is that those who are loved are better off. It is hard to argue against that premise, however, I think that a persons ability to grow and experience new things is also something to be considered. Just to clarify I am not necessarily disagreeing with you because I believe every individual needs care and to be appreciated. Having a family increases the chance of this happening... and in the event that an individual is adopted, they have an even higher chance of this occurring in their lives because most people who want to adopt a child generally want to provide care for that individual.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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If someone is pedophile, this person should have sexual freedom?

Homosexualism is disease, it's dangerous, and there is no need for this to exist in society.

If my answer is controversial, I can prove I am right.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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It certainly is controversial, however the opposite is too.
No perfect view on this so far, so I encourage you to prove something if you feel you need.
 

Minuend

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homosexuality gave me cancer died three times
 

The Gopher

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The only problem is I can see is maybe an increased chance of abuse. Ya know maybe pedophiles will start working in pairs more often. :D Pretend to love each other and marry and the like.

Abuse happens in families of both types though, in general better methods of assessing people to see the likelihood of negative effects on children would probably help. You can't catch everyone though, highly manipulative people in the world *cough INFJ'S *cough*.
 

Jennywocky

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This is a hard pole to vote in given its premise. You must consider the possible effect(s) this could have on an individual who is raised by a homosexual couple. I would say the majority of individuals raised by a homosexual couple would be straight.

Well, I see enough gay people who were raised by straights; and I see a ton of fucked-up people who were raised by straights.

I'm kind of curious as to how gay parents could worsen all the crappy relationships and broken families that already exist between straight parents and their children.

(In fact, considering how hard gay parents have to work to adopt children and how they are judged by society, at least we're assured that gay parents have kids because they want them and not because they're accidents or they got married because they "had to" or without having been scrutinized with a fine-tooth comb by state officials. If we put that much effort into monitoring straight parents/families, maybe we'd be better off as a culture. I think someone could suggest that, just because they have to sacrifice and strive to be parents, the odds are they're even more likely to actually be invested in their kids than straights.)

Is any approved couple allowed to adopt children?

That's for the states to decide.

Some situations allow for single parents to adopt children. I know for some overseas adoptions, a single dad adopting a daughter is a no-no (although they would let a single mom adopt a son).

But I figure the screening should occur when the couple marries, not later. Talk about "second-class" marriage, where you are told you can get married but aren't allowed to build a family? One of the benefits of being married is having legal support to maintain stability and raise children, although one is not required to have kids.

Or is any approved individual allowed to adopt children?

Your questions are odd because you use the word "approved." Of course anyone who is "approved" can adopt anyone they want. The question is, "What should the rules of approval be?"



If someone is pedophile, this person should have sexual freedom?

Homosexualism is disease, it's dangerous, and there is no need for this to exist in society.

If my answer is controversial, I can prove I am right.

Good luck with every bit of that.

(Damn, I just got trolled, didn't I? Arrrg.)
 
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hard pole
Not+sure+if+pingpong+ball+or+extasy+to+girls+cup+_c769085a4950ad515c1a3f89c6d1fb21.png
who else is going to adopt all the homeless children?

I say they are good for society
For once I agree with Goku... :storks:
If someone is pedophile, this person should have sexual freedom?

Homosexualism is disease, it's dangerous, and there is no need for this to exist in society.

If my answer is controversial, I can prove I am right.
You're the first person ITT to represent that view, so I'm curious...

Given the Kinsey Scale, which shows that 1) a majority of people are at least partially homosexual 2) sexuality isn't bimodal, how can homosexuality be a disease?

What empirical evidence is there of homosexuality causing physical or biological harm that isn't socially induced (as a result of, for example, bullying)?

Why do you equate homosexuality to pedophilia?
 

Ex-User (9086)

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That's for the states to decide.
You are the state :). Nothing else to this.
Some situations allow for single parents to adopt children. I know for some overseas adoptions, a single dad adopting a daughter is a no-no (although they would let a single mom adopt a son).
Wow. What's with this bias? So would they let a father adopt a son or only mothers can adopt? This is seriously weird. Assuming anyone can be transsexual this is even more weird.
Your questions are odd because you use the word "approved." Of course anyone who is "approved" can adopt anyone they want. The question is, "What should the rules of approval be?"
These can be approved by the majority but we are discussing opinions and not necessarily the approval of majority or of the state. Yes the rules of approval are also interesting if you care to refer to this.
 

Jennywocky

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Wow. What's with this bias? So would they let a father adopt a son or only mothers can adopt? This is seriously weird. Assuming anyone can be transsexual this is even more weird.

I haven't reviewed it recently. The country I know about most is China, since we adopted from there in 2002. China is one of the more stringent foreign adoptive countries and I think their rules are far more stringent nowadays -- they included salary minimums (to adopt a third child, the insisted our household salary be $60K, which was ridiculous considering depending on where you live in the US, you can support a family that size on less easily + the Chinese were far poorer and yet could have their own kids). But they were very much about wanting to present the image of caring about their children, and they believed there was far more chance for a single man to be adopting children to abuse them (doh) than a single woman.

... what do you mean about the transsexual thing? I think I missed that elsewhere, if it was brought up... I guess I'll scan the thread."

These can be approved by the majority but we are discussing opinions and not necessarily the approval of majority or of the state. Yes the rules of approval are also interesting if you care to refer to this.

My personal opinion is probably obvious from other comments I made, but assuming that gay men are pedophiles and out to molest children seem unfounded. If you screen parents of any sexual preference well enough, preference doesn't matter. My physician actually is a gay male in a long-standing relationship with his partner, wrote a book about their adoption experiences in the 90's, and his oldest son goes to college with my son. There was a lot of crazy crap in the United States in 60's and 70's last century, but the cultural climate has changed a great deal since then, as well as the pressures society places on gay people. A lot of this information seems to give het parents a pass and is carrying in distorted baggage to gay families whose parents weren't even born from that time in our nation's past, but the traditional and prejudicial elements of society continue to perpetuate the myth. Why would a gay dad be more likely to molest / love his sons less than a het dad molesting or loving his daughters less?

A lot of this cultural baggage has been allowed to perpetuate because there has been no real evidence either way... until recently. Now kids in gay families are reaching adulthood and are living normal, happy, successful lives... blowing away that myth that that scenario is somehow worse than the norm. Why else would gay marriage rules be changing so drastically, and will continue to change? It's because the "social experiment" that the conservatives bitch about has already occurred, and they've essentially lost... the horrible impact on children they are insisting that occurs has not been observed.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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... what do you mean about the transsexual thing? I think I missed that elsewhere, if it was brought up... I guess I'll scan the thread."

Actually anyone can appear as a man or a woman nowadays. The procedure to have your gender legally remade to the opposite is accessible to any individual with enough money and determination. Or am I wrong?

So by this your perception and awarness of gender is more important that the actual physical state.

You have covered this inconsistency in the Chinese system, so there is no point in further proving it, I think.
 

Hawkeye

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There are heterosexual couples that can't raise children correctly.

Sexual orientation is not an important part of raising children. The whole point of parenthood is to nurture and support offspring. The idea that a homosexual couple cannot raise children to be as good as heterosexual couple's children is ridiculous.

Society seems to be mixing up bad parenting with sexual orientation. There is no correlation. A single father can raise a daughter just as well or as bad as a single mother raising a son.

Heterosexual couples can have homosexual children.
 

Jennywocky

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Actually anyone can appear as a man or a woman nowadays. The procedure to have your gender legally remade to the opposite is accessible to any individual with enough money and determination. Or am I wrong?

Yes, that's correct, although reproductive capacity in the new gender is not yet implementable. (I.e., transmen can't shoot sperm, transwomen can't get pregnant... although they are working to use stem cells nowadays to create wombs for wombless women... so ... who knows? I also heard apparently they can change an egg to a sperm now as well, but I haven't verified that.)

So by this your perception and awarness of gender is more important that the actual physical state.

True. Basically, if your country legally records you as your new gender and you look like that gender with clothes on, then they're not going to know the difference as they don't "strip search." it's all about legal status. Then again, if your legal papers still show the old gender, then the foreign country would consider it a same-sex marriage and the same laws would apply.

As a final point, in the US, if a partner in an opposite-sex marriage transitions legally into what now amounts to a same-sex uniion, since the marriage was originally valid the marriage is still grandfathered in as a "valid marriage" regardless of state rules prohibiting same sex marriage. The marriage was legal when it was entered, and that is what is counted. But a foreign country could still have issues if two partners have the same legal gender.
 

Ninety-Fourth

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If someone is pedophile, this person should have sexual freedom?

Homosexualism is disease, it's dangerous, and there is no need for this to exist in society.

If my answer is controversial, I can prove I am right.

Please do.
Your statements: 1) homosexuality is a disease; 2) homosexuality is dangerous; 3) our society doesn't need homosexuals. All three seem quite controversial to me, as I fail to recall any evidence supporting either of them. I'd like to see where you've got those ideas.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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As a final point, in the US, if a partner in an opposite-sex marriage transitions legally into what now amounts to a same-sex uniion, since the marriage was originally valid the marriage is still grandfathered in as a "valid marriage" regardless of state rules prohibiting same sex marriage. The marriage was legal when it was entered, and that is what is counted. But a foreign country could still have issues if two partners have the same legal gender.
Lex retro non agit, when you change the law system it also varies.
Yes, that's correct, although reproductive capacity in the new gender is not yet implementable. (I.e., transmen can't shoot sperm, transwomen can't get pregnant... although they are working to use stem cells nowadays to create wombs for wombless women... so ... who knows? I also heard apparently they can change an egg to a sperm now as well, but I haven't verified that.)
I wonder if there is a biological difference between sperm or spermless procreation. I would have to find some materials on the feasibility of this.
Doesn't the egg contain XX and sperm XY? Would there be no chance to achieve Xy then?
 
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I wonder if there is a biological difference between sperm or spermless procreation. I would have to find some materials on the feasibility of this.
Doesn't the egg contain XX and sperm XY? Would there be no chance to achieve Xy then?
The egg to sperm thing is... questionable at best.

Sperm contain a single X or Y, and an egg contains an X (haploid). Both contain copies of all the other chromosomes. In some rare cases, mutations occur where one or the other carry multiples or none at all, but these are very, very rare.

What can be done, is this: The chromosomes from an adult cell (diploid) can be inserted into an egg, that will then divide and form a clone of the original individual. Theoretically it's also possible to remove an X and add a Y, but 1) that's a lot of costly work 2) it may not be biologically stable. It's much simpler to utilize a sperm bank or a surrogate birthmother.
 

TimeAsylums

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Homosexualism is disease, it's dangerous, and there is no need for this to exist in society.

If my answer is controversial, I can prove I am right.

homosexuality gave me cancer died three times

Mani and Minu may be on to something...


[bIMGx=400]http://www.intpforum.com/picture.php?albumid=349&pictureid=2167[/bIMgx]

[bIMGx=400]http://imgace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/check-mate-atheists1.jpg[/bIMGx]
 

BigApplePi

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Um. I have a question. Is it difficult for ANY couple to adopt? The stuff I see here on U.S. TV says it is. Why wouldn't the theory that a couple just below some standard be better than a child raised in an orphanage? What am I missing? Could it be adoption is a racket business making money for the go-between thus creating artificially high standards? Don't know.
 

Helvete

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I voted that they shouldn't be able to adopt, nor should single parents. Nothing to do with sexual orientation - as has been said, straight can produce homo.

It's to do with the upbringing, will the child get the right sort of emotional support and love from same sex parents or single parents? In some cases maybe yes but on the whole I doubt it.

Can't remember who posted that it'd be better than no parents... - I didn't think about this though :o
 

Jennywocky

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I wonder if there is a biological difference between sperm or spermless procreation. I would have to find some materials on the feasibility of this.

Doesn't the egg contain XX and sperm XY? Would there be no chance to
achieve Xy then?

Sex cells only contain 23 chromosomes normally, so the egg and the sperm each contribute half of the full total in human cells of 46. Sperm can provide either an X or a Y chromosome, while eggs can be only provide an X. [So technically, an egg is X, not XX; a sperm is X or Y, not XY.]

Thus the sperm determines gender in the normal pathway: An X sperm makes an XX (female) and Y sperm makes an XY (male), if there are not alterations in the rest of the genetic code that would change that unfolding process. The largest factor of a human developing into a male would be the presence of a Y chromosome, but it's kind of unfolding process.

There are some species that operate similarly and others than use a Z or even a W chromosome in there, I think.

Anyway, I have no idea how they change an egg into a sperm. I guess it makes sense an egg could only become an X sperm, but I haven't read anything about it to be sure yet.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Anyway, I have no idea how they change an egg into a sperm. I guess it makes sense an egg could only become an X sperm, but I haven't read anything about it to be sure yet.
Thanks for this confirmation.
There are some newspaper articles about this and also on the reverse. That it is very early and it is as THD kindly mentioned questionable.
I think that Y has special markers that need to be removed and replaced with generic values, so this is closer to engineering rather than simple substitution.
As such this is related to problems of Eugenics and offspring customisation.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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the Kinsey Scale
fact or fiction?



It’s now more than 50 years since the revolution began. Sexual “liberation” has been endlessly ballyhooed by the national media, promoted in the movies, embraced by Playboy guys and Cosmo girls as a freedom more delicious than Eden’s apple. No American under 40 can honestly remember a time when sex on TV was taboo, when “living together” meant married, when “gay” meant happy, and when almost every child lived with both parents.
If truth be told, the revolution has been a disaster. Before the push to loosen America’s sexual mores really got under way in the 1950s, the only widely reported sexually transmitted diseases in the United States were gonorrhea and syphilis. Today we have more than two dozen varieties, from pelvic inflammatory disease (which renders more than 100,000 American women infertile each year) to AIDS (which presently infects 42 million people worldwide and has already killed another 23 million). According to a report by scientists at the National Cancer Institute, a woman who has three or more sex partners in her lifetime increases her risk of cervical cancer by as much as 1,500 percent. In another finding that runs contrary to all that the sex researchers preached, a survey at the University of Chicago’s National Opinion Research Center showed that married men and women, on average, are sexually happier than unwed couples merely living together. And even if live-in couples do marry, they’re 40 to 85 percent more likely to divorce than those who go straight to the altar.
So what happened? Was science simply wrong? Well, not exactly — the truth is more complicated than that.
Con Man
Alfred C. Kinsey had a secret. The Indiana University zoologist and “father of the sexual revolution” almost single-handedly redefined the sexual mores of everyday Americans. The problem was, he had to lie to do it. The weight of this point must not be underestimated. The science that launched the sexual revolution has been used for the past 50 years to sway court decisions, pass legislation, introduce sex education into our schools, and even push for a redefinition of marriage. Kinseyism was the very foundation of this effort. If his science was flawed — or worse yet, an outright deception — then our culture’s attitudes about sex are not just wrong morally but scientifically as well.
Let’s consider the facts. When Kinsey and his coworkers published Sexual Behavior in the Human Male in 1948 and Sexual Behavior in the Human Female in 1953, they turned middle-class values upside down. Many traditionally forbidden sexual practices, Kinsey and his colleagues proclaimed, were surprisingly commonplace; 85 percent of men and 48 percent of women said they’d had premarital sex, and 50 percent of men and 40 percent of women had been unfaithful after marriage. Incredibly, 71 percent of women claimed their affair hadn’t hurt their marriage, and a few even said it had helped. What’s more, 69 percent of men had been with prostitutes, 10 percent had been homosexual for at least three years, and 17 percent of farm boys had experienced sex with animals. Implicit in Kinsey’s report was the notion that these behaviors were biologically “normal” and hurt no one. Therefore, people should act on their impulses with no inhibition or guilt.
The 1948 report on men came out to rave reviews and sold an astonishing 200,000 copies in two months. Kinsey’s name was everywhere from the titles of pop songs (“Ooh, Dr. Kinsey”) to the pages of Life, Time, Newsweek, and the New Yorker. Kinsey was “presenting facts,” Look magazine proclaimed. He was “revealing not what should be but what is.” Dubbed “Dr. Sex” and applauded for his personal courage, the researcher was compared to Darwin, Galileo, and Freud.
But beneath the popular approbation, many astute scientists were warning that Kinsey’s research was gravely flawed. The list of critics, Kinsey biographer James H. Jones observes, “read like a Who’s Who of American Intellectual Life.” They included anthropologists Margaret Mead and Ruth Benedict; Stanford University psychologist Lewis M. Terman; Karl Menninger, M.D. (founder of the famed Menninger Institute); psychiatrists Eric Fromm and Lawrence Kubie; cultural critic Lionel Trilling of Columbia University, and countless others.
By the time Kinsey’s volume about women was published, many journalists had abandoned the admiring throngs and joined the critics. Magazine articles appeared with titles like “Is the Kinsey Report a Hoax?” and “Love Is Not a Statistic.” Time magazine ran a series of stories exposing Kinsey’s dubious science (one was titled “Sex or Snake Oil?”).
That’s not, of course, to say that the Kinsey reports contain no truth at all. Sexuality is certainly a subject worthy of scientific study. And many people do pay lip service to sexual purity while secretly behaving altogether differently in their private lives.
Nevertheless, Kinsey’s version of the truth was so grossly oversimplified, exaggerated, and mixed with falsehoods, it’s difficult to sort fact from fiction. Distinguished British anthropologist Geoffrey Gorer put it well when he called the reports propaganda masquerading as science. Indeed, the flaws in Kinsey’s work stirred up such controversy that the Rockefeller Foundation, which had backed the original research, withdrew its funding of $100,000 a year. A year after the book on female sexuality came out, Kinsey himself complained that almost no scientist outside of a few of his best friends continued to defend him.
So, what were the issues the world’s best scientists had with Kinsey’s work? The criticism can be condensed into three troublesome points.
Problem #1: Humans as Animals
Before he began studying human sexuality, Kinsey was the world’s leading expert on the gall wasp. Trained as a zoologist, he saw sex purely as a physiological “animal” response. Throughout his books, he continually refers to the “human animal.” In fact, in Kinsey’s opinion, there was no moral difference between one sexual outlet and any other. In our secular world of moral relativism, Kinsey was a radical sexual relativist. As even the libertarian anthropologist Margaret Mead accurately observed, in Kinsey’s view there was no moral difference between a man having sex with a woman or a sheep.
In his volume about women, Kinsey likened the human orgasm to sneezing. Noting that this ludicrous description left out the obvious psychological aspects of human sexuality, Brooklyn College anthropologist George Simpson observed, “This is truly a monkey-theory of orgasm.” Human beings, of course, differ from animals in two very important ways: We can think rationally, and we have free will. But in Kinsey’s worldview, humans differed from animals only when it came to procreation. Animals have sex only to procreate. On the other hand, human procreation got little notice from Kinsey. In his 842-page volume on female sexuality, motherhood wasn’t mentioned once.
Problem #2: Skewed Samples
Kinsey often presented his statistics as if they applied to average moms, dads, sisters, and brothers. In doing so, he claimed 95 percent of American men had violated sex-crime laws that could land them in jail. Thus Americans were told they had to change their sex-offender laws to “fit the facts.” But, in reality, Kinsey’s reports never applied to average people in the general population. In fact, many of the men Kinsey surveyed were actually prison inmates. Wardell B. Pomeroy, Kinsey co-author and an eyewitness to the research, wrote that by 1946 the team had taken sexual histories from about 1,400 imprisoned sex offenders. Kinsey never revealed how many of these criminals were included in his total sample of “about 5,300″ white males. But he did admit including “several hundred” male prostitutes. Additionally, at least 317 of Kinsey’s male subjects were not even adults, but sexually abused children.
Piling error on top of error, about 75 percent of Kinsey’s adult male subjects volunteered to give their sexual histories. As Stanford University psychologist Lewis M. Terman observed, volunteers for sex studies are two to four times more sexually active than non-volunteers.
Kinsey’s work didn’t improve in his volume on women. In fact, he interviewed so few average women that he actually had to redefine “married” to include any woman who had lived with a man for more than a year. This change added prostitutes to his sample of “married” women.
In the December 11, 1949, New York Times, W. Allen Wallis, then chairman of the University of Chicago’s committee on statistics, dismissed “the entire method of collecting and presenting the statistics which underlie Dr. Kinsey’s conclusions:’ Wallis noted, “There are six major aspects of any statistical research, and Kinsey fails on four.”
In short, Kinsey’s team researched the most exotic sexual behavior in America — taking hundreds if not thousands of case histories from sexual deviants — and then passed off the behavior as sexually “normal,” “natural;” and “average” (and hence socially and morally acceptable).
Problem #3: Faulty Statistics
Given all this, it’s hardly surprising that Kinsey’s statistics were so deeply flawed that no reputable scientific survey has ever been able to duplicate them.
Kinsey claimed, for instance, that 10 percent of men between the ages of 16 and 55 were homosexual. Yet in one of the most thorough nationwide surveys on male sexual behavior ever conducted, scientists at Battelle Human Affairs Research Centers in Seattle found that men who considered themselves exclusively homosexual accounted for only 1 percent of the population. In 1993, Time magazine reported, “Recent surveys from France, Britain, Canada, Norway and Denmark all point to numbers lower than 10 percent and tend to come out in the 1 to 4 percent range.” The incidence of homosexuality among adults is actually “between 1 and 3 percent;” says University of Delaware sociology and criminal justice professor Joel Best, author of Damned Lies and Statistics. Best observes, however, that gay and lesbian activists prefer to use Kinsey’s long-discredited one-in-ten figure “because it suggests that homosexuals are a substantial minority group, roughly equal in number to African Americans — too large to be ignored.”
Not surprisingly, Kinsey’s numbers showing marital infidelity to be harmless also never held up. In one Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy study of infidelity, 85 percent of marriages were damaged as a result, and 34 percent ended in divorce. Even spouses who stayed together usually described their marriages afterwards as unhappy. Atlanta psychiatrist Frank Pittman, M.D., estimates that among couples who have been married for a long time and then divorce, “over 90 percent of the divorces involve infidelities.”
Speaking at a 1955 conference sponsored by Planned Parenthood, Kinsey pulled another statistical bombshell out of his hat. He claimed that of all pregnant women, roughly 95 percent of singles and 25 percent of those who were married secretly aborted their babies. A whopping 87 percent of these abortions, he claimed, were performed by bona fide doctors. Thus he gave scientific authority to the notion that abortion was already a common medical procedure — and should thus be legal.
Living With the Wreckage
When Reader’s Digest asked popular sex therapist Ruth Westheimer what she thought of Kinsey’s misinformation, she reportedly replied, “I don’t care much about what is correct and is not correct. Without him, I wouldn’t be Dr. Ruth.”
But Kinsey’s deceptions do matter today, because we’re still living with the Kinsey model of sexuality. It permeates our entire culture. As Best observes, bad statistics are significant for many reasons: “They can be used to stir up public outrage or fear, they can distort our understanding of our world, and they can lead us to make poor policy choices.”
In a 1951 Journal of Social Psychology study, psychology students at the University of California, Los Angeles, were divided into three groups: Some students took an intensive nine-week course on Kinsey’s findings, while the other two groups received no formal Kinsey instruction. Afterward, the students took a quiz testing their attitudes about sex. Compared with those who received no Kinsey training, those steeped in Kinseyism were seven times as likely to view premarital sex more favorably than they did before and twice as likely to look more favorably on adultery. After Kinsey, the percentage of students open to a homosexual experience soared from 0 to 15 percent. Students taught Kinseyism were also less likely to let religion influence their sexual behavior and less apt to follow sexual rules taught by their parents.
Influencing Court Decisions
Kinsey’s pseudoscience arguably did the most damage through our court systems. That’s where attorneys used the researcher’s “facts” to repeal or weaken laws against abortion, pornography, obscenity, divorce, adultery, and sodomy. In the May 1950 issue of Scientific Monthly, New York City attorney Morris Ernst (who represented Kinsey, Margaret Sanger, the American Civil Liberties Union, and Planned Parenthood) outlined his ambitious legal plan for Kinsey’s findings. “We must remember that there are two parts to law,” Ernst said. One was “the finding of the facts” (Kinsey’s job); the other was applying those findings in court (Ernst’s job). Noting that the law needed more tools “to aid in its search for the truth,” the attorney argued for “new rules,” under which “facts” like Kinsey’s would be introduced into court cases in the same way judges allowed other scientific tools, such as fingerprints, lie-detector results, and blood tests. The inexhaustible Ernst also urged the courts to revise laws concerning the institution of marriage.
The legal fallout from Kinsey’s work continues. The U.S. Supreme Court’s historic 2003 decision striking down sodomy laws was the offshoot of a long string of court cases won largely on the basis of Kinsey’s research. And 50 years of precedents set by Kinsey’s “false 10 percent” are now being used in states like Massachusetts to redefine marriage.
A Sorry Legacy
Inspired by the first Kinsey report, Hugh Hefner founded Playboy in 1953. A decade later, Helen Gurley Brown turned Cosmopolitan into a sex magazine for women. Even today magazines like Self and Glamour continue to quote Kinsey with respect, never acknowledging the grave errors riddling his research. An estimated 30,000 Web sites offer pornography, and U.S. producers churn out 600 hard-core adult videos each month. Although reliable figures are difficult to come by, the U.S. sex industry pulls in an estimated $2.5 billion to $10 billion a year. Clearly, we’re living Kinsey’s legacy.
In his book The End of Sex, an obituary of the sexual revolution, Esquire contributor George Leonard accurately observed that “wherever we have split ‘sex’ from love, creation, and the rest of life . . . we have trivialized and depersonalized the act of love itself.” Treasuring others solely for their sexuality strips them of their humanity. When Kinsey tore the mystery of love from human sexuality, he abandoned us all to a sexually broken world.
 
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The fact that big names and the media criticized his work doesn't negate its merit. Darwin, Galileo, Newton, and Tesla also faced criticism from who were at the time well known scientific peers and media.

The sole commonality that defines sex is sexual gratification. Motive does not define sex.
"Human beings, of course, differ from animals in two very important ways: We can think rationally, and we have free will."
This is patently false. Both sentience and sapience exist along a gradient and are ubiquitous throughout all species. Without them, life wouldn't be alive.
"But in Kinsey’s worldview, humans differed from animals only when it came to procreation. Animals have sex only to procreate. On the other hand, human procreation got little notice from Kinsey."
This has since been disproven. Animals fuck for all sorts of reasons outside of procreation that only they can imagine.
"In his 842-page volume on female sexuality, motherhood wasn’t mentioned once."
Motherhood and childrearing are not sex.
Average men
Average used in the context of this criticism is a subjective quality, not a quality of population.
"Wardell B. Pomeroy, Kinsey co-author and an eyewitness to the research, wrote that by 1946 the team had taken sexual histories from about 1,400 imprisoned sex offenders. Kinsey never revealed how many of these criminals were included in his total sample of “about 5,300″ white males. But he did admit including “several hundred” male prostitutes. Additionally, at least 317 of Kinsey’s male subjects were not even adults, but sexually abused children."
First, this is heresay. Second, I'd like to see the actual publication/s by Kinsey in question.
"Piling error on top of error, about 75 percent of Kinsey’s adult male subjects volunteered to give their sexual histories. As Stanford University psychologist Lewis M. Terman observed, volunteers for sex studies are two to four times more sexually active than non-volunteers."
This claim is unsourced heresay.
"Kinsey’s work didn’t improve in his volume on women. In fact, he interviewed so few average women that he actually had to redefine “married” to include any woman who had lived with a man for more than a year. This change added prostitutes to his sample of “married” women.

In the December 11, 1949, New York Times, W. Allen Wallis, then chairman of the University of Chicago’s committee on statistics, dismissed “the entire method of collecting and presenting the statistics which underlie Dr. Kinsey’s conclusions:’ Wallis noted, “There are six major aspects of any statistical research, and Kinsey fails on four.”"
More heresay.
"Kinsey claimed, for instance, that 10 percent of men between the ages of 16 and 55 were homosexual. Yet in one of the most thorough nationwide surveys on male sexual behavior ever conducted, scientists at Battelle Human Affairs Research Centers in Seattle found that men who considered themselves exclusively homosexual accounted for only 1 percent of the population. In 1993, Time magazine reported, “Recent surveys from France, Britain, Canada, Norway and Denmark all point to numbers lower than 10 percent and tend to come out in the 1 to 4 percent range.”"
All of these attempted replications took place after the rise of the AIDS epidemic which would have undoubtedly 1) reduced the homosexual population 2) discouraged homosexual behavior 3) discouraged openness regarding homosexual behavior.
"In one Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy study of infidelity, 85 percent of marriages were damaged as a result, and 34 percent ended in divorce. Even spouses who stayed together usually described their marriages afterwards as unhappy. Atlanta psychiatrist Frank Pittman, M.D., estimates that among couples who have been married for a long time and then divorce, “over 90 percent of the divorces involve infidelities.”"
What is this specific article and how does it compare to the rest of the body of literature on the subject? When and where did it occur? What evidence is there that shows infidelity to be the chief causal factor? What evidence is there to show that infidelity occurred before, not after, a given relationship began to go south?
"He claimed that of all pregnant women, roughly 95 percent of singles and 25 percent of those who were married secretly aborted their babies. A whopping 87 percent of these abortions, he claimed, were performed by bona fide doctors. Thus he gave scientific authority to the notion that abortion was already a common medical procedure — and should thus be legal."
What specifically is inaccurate about the claim, given its context?
"When Reader’s Digest asked popular sex therapist Ruth Westheimer"
This is completely arbitrary opinion.
"students at the University of California, Los Angeles, were divided into three groups: Some students took an intensive nine-week course on Kinsey’s findings, while the other two groups received no formal Kinsey instruction. Afterward, the students took a quiz testing their attitudes about sex. Compared with those who received no Kinsey training, those steeped in Kinseyism were seven times as likely to view premarital sex more favorably than they did before and twice as likely to look more favorably on adultery. After Kinsey, the percentage of students open to a homosexual experience soared from 0 to 15 percent. Students taught Kinseyism were also less likely to let religion influence their sexual behavior and less apt to follow sexual rules taught by their parents."
This is a perfect example of a flawed experimental design used to produce pseudoscience. I'd bet they'd learn more about math had they taken an intensive nine-week math course too.
"Influencing Court Decisions"
This has no bearing on Kinsey's merit whatsoever. Research influences policy.
"George Leonard accurately observed that “wherever we have split ‘sex’ from love, creation, and the rest of life . . . we have trivialized and depersonalized the act of love itself.” Treasuring others solely for their sexuality strips them of their humanity. When Kinsey tore the mystery of love from human sexuality, he abandoned us all to a sexually broken world."
So your contention is that homosexuals are incapable of love?

This entire article is mediocre-grade propagandist junk. :beatyou:
 

Jennywocky

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Along with all that, it's interesting that the author (Sue Ellin Browder) is a blogger for the National Catholic Register and that the article seems to have been published/linked primarily by Crisis Magazine ("A Voice for the Faithful Catholic Laity"), Free Republic ("The Premier Conservative Site on the Net!"), Catholic Education, etc. Not exactly a balanced article.

...Wait, replace "interesting" with "unsurprising."

I think one of the first parts of being "open-minded" is to examine the source of the arguments being studied, just to be aware of what angle the writer is taking, what background they are coming from, and what they hope to accomplish with their argument. Sure, read it, but there has to be a filter that can take into account any slant in the writing. The writer here has a vested interest in promoting male/female procreative traditional families and already believes other forms of commitments and families are "less than" just by nature. Rick Santorum seems to have a pretty similar mindset.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Sources:
Jones, James H. (1997). Alfred C. Kinsey: A Public/Private Life. New York: Norton.
Bullough, Vern L. (1 August 1999). "Book Review "Alfred C. Kinsey: Sex the Measure of All Things; A Biography"". Journal of Sex Research.
Bullough, Vern L. (1 March 2006). "The Kinsey biographies". Sexuality & Culture (Vol 10, No 1).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVC-1d5ib50
 
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The original, by Kinsey et al is 800+ pages. The summary.
Sources:
Jones, James H. (1997). Alfred C. Kinsey: A Public/Private Life. New York: Norton.
Bullough, Vern L. (1 August 1999). "Book Review "Alfred C. Kinsey: Sex the Measure of All Things; A Biography"". Journal of Sex Research.
Bullough, Vern L. (1 March 2006). "The Kinsey biographies". Sexuality & Culture (Vol 10, No 1).
Unfortunately, book reviews aren't peer-reviewed. They're approved by the editor directly and often incorporated for the sole purpose of spurring discussion.

The first is a collection of literary ad-hom:

"Dominating others, mostly subordinates, came naturally for him."

"His youth he preferred to forget or recalled with bitterness."

"A domineering father and weak mother provided adequate excuse for him to leave home."

"What parenting could not nurture, homosexuality and masochism directed."

"Jones spares no sensibility in his discussion of the intimate details of Kinsey's own sexual appetites."

"Kinsey had since puberty inflicted pain upon himself with insertions of objects into his urethra."

None of this addresses his data.

The second is a book review of a biography.

*cough* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source *cough*

The third is by the same author as the second and another ditto on a biography.




You're better than this, Sal... :beatyou:

_________________________________________________

Aw fuck...

I'm living testimony that a man will screw anything in the proper circumstances, furniture, watermelons, empty milk jugs, and vacuum cleaner hoses included.

Come at me, bros/hos!
:hoplite_army:
 

Hawkeye

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Batman was brought up by one man and he's awesome*.

*this excludes Nolan's whiney, husky voiced muppet.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Well, sure, when the counter-argument is in favour of traditional family values, you will naturally attract all kinds of traditionalists to jump on the bandwagon.
They have to fill their magazines with something too, you know.

@THD Because the article is a reproduction of an article published a few years back, it cites no sources, so the sources i provided are those from wikipedia.
29, 17 and 18, if i remember correctly.
There's also some interesting stuff going on in the "discussion" section of wikipedia.

http://www.pbs.org/fmc/interviews/jones.htm

Is he in on the right-wing conspiracy to doom gay people to hell too?

Do you think the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment is fiction as well?
Why would a right-winger invest his time into uncovering a story which could benefit african americans?

What about the testimonies by his former colleagues documented in the video i posted?
 
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Because the article is a reproduction of an article published a few years back, it cites no sources, so the sources i provided are those from wikipedia.
29, 17 and 18, if i remember correctly.
There's also some interesting stuff going on in the "discussion" section of wikipedia.

http://www.pbs.org/fmc/interviews/jones.htm

Is he in on the right-wing conspiracy to doom gay people to hell too?

Do you think the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment is fiction as well?
Why would a right-winger invest his time into uncovering a story which could benefit african americans?

What about the testimonies by his former colleagues documented in the video i posted?
Jones authored a biography.

The same model used in the Tuskegee experiment worked very well for the polio vaccine, in a time of peak apartheid. Otherwise I don't see how this is related to the topic or data at all. It's pure, undocumented and unsourced, speculation.

Character flaws do not invalidate data. Swinging from the ceiling by one's nutsack has no impact on the validity of peer-review. Nor do interviews on YouTube.
 

Anktark

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The only negatives for the offspring I can think of right now would be:

1) Realization that one is adopted. Possible inner conflict, depression and suicidal thoughts depending on emotional bonds with parents and social environment.
2) Increased probability of being bullied.
3) Depending on child's personality, could feel he was robbed of "normal" family.

Excuse me, got distracted and not sure what thread is about exactly, and it's 5a.m. here, will add more later.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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You jump around the fire which has been placed on your feet.
You can't be truly an advocate of witchcraft if you rely on peer revieved studies.
Do you thinkk true magick is truely scientific?
There's a great secrecy to uphold, your best bet is to keep it secrert, isn't it?
 
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You jump around the fire which has been placed on your feet.
You can't be truly an advocate of witchcraft if you rely on peer revieved studies.
Do you thinkk true magick is truely scientific?
There's a great secrecy to uphold, your best bet is to keep it secrert, isn't it?
Oh my, you're silly. :p

The fire reaches for me in vain. I'm a chaote. I'm free to adopt any method so long as it works. "Everything is permitted, nothing is forbidden." I've been influenced by ways of thinking like Zen, Satanism, Hermeticism, and something far more... wild and observant.

Is magick scientific? Yes. They are the same; alchemy. What we label as "science" tends to lag behind.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to. I'm pansexual...? The watermelon and vacuum cleaner hose references didn't give that away? :D
 

Jennywocky

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The only negatives for the offspring I can think of right now would be:

1) Realization that one is adopted. Possible inner conflict, depression and suicidal thoughts depending on emotional bonds with parents and social environment.
2) Increased probability of being bullied.
3) Depending on child's personality, could feel he was robbed of "normal" family.

Excuse me, got distracted and not sure what thread is about exactly, and it's 5a.m. here, will add more later.

#1 is an issue for any adopted child regardless of parental genders and is a big deal I think, but (as an adoptive parent myself), you just work through it as a family. There's even the issue of "Why did my birth parents give me away to begin with?" My daughter agrees it's better than having no family at all, though.

#2 is a social issue, as much as being the only black kid in school or some other minority. We wouldn't tell a black kid to stop being black, we would do things to alleviate the need for bullying.

#3 is a good point and another thing to work through, like #1... although the definition of "normal" will change depending on the cultural standard. Divorce and remarriage in our culture is much higher than in the past, so "normal" has changed as well, for example.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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One of the most reasonable man is Putin and I think he deal with homosexuals properly.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...propaganda-among-minors-in-banned-Putin-2990/
They are not prohibited, but there is ban for promoting it.

I agree, that everyone is partial homosexual, as @TheHabitatDoctor said. And because this fact, homosexuality shouldn't offcialy exist, it can decrease birthrate, and we know that basic purposes in our lives are: to survive and to reproduce.

Also, the homosexual community are abnormal, strange, possibly dangerous. Don't believe? Go and watch their parades.
 

Deleted member 1424

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Also, the homosexual community are abnormal, strange, possibly dangerous. Don't believe? Go and watch their parades.

Do they give you stirrings that you fear?

gay-pride-float-men.jpg


It'll be ok Manipulator.
 

redbaron

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Also, the homosexual community are abnormal, strange, possibly dangerous. Don't believe? Go and watch their parades.

What's wrong with them? They seem fun.
 

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I'm a genderfuck alien robot pirate wo/man.

What are you, boy?
 

Latte

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One of the most reasonable man is Putin and I think he deal with homosexuals properly.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...propaganda-among-minors-in-banned-Putin-2990/
They are not prohibited, but there is ban for promoting it.

I agree, that everyone is partial homosexual, as @TheHabitatDoctor said. And because this fact, homosexuality shouldn't offcialy exist, it can decrease birthrate, and we know that basic purposes in our lives are: to survive and to reproduce.

Also, the homosexual community are abnormal, strange, possibly dangerous. Don't believe? Go and watch their parades.


What is purpose and whose purpose is this and what's in it for us to align with or help that entity or vantage point's purpose?

Assuming that how many humans are non-retired and the rate of human replacement are no longer impacted in any way by what percentage of the population live as homosexuals/homoromantics, would you still find your idea of their weirdness and possibly dangerous cultural influence sufficiently alarming for there to be a blanket ban on information regarding homosexuality in public?

If so and also if not so, please elaborate on the possible danger beyond birth/future productivity demographics and also why strangeness and abnormality are inherently negative traits, if you have the time and will.
 

shoeless

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this thread needs more gay.

supergay.jpg

also, just so, like, you know...
one's sexuality has no correlation to one's potential to abuse. like, ever.
also i don't know i'm personally not too worried about the human race going extinct for lack of procreation, but maybe i'm just blinded by all the sweet lesbian tang i'm getting.

ps, to manipulator: are you a troll or just, like, 13?
 
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One of the most reasonable man is Putin and I think he deal with homosexuals properly.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...propaganda-among-minors-in-banned-Putin-2990/
They are not prohibited, but there is ban for promoting it.

I agree, that everyone is partial homosexual, as @TheHabitatDoctor said. And because this fact, homosexuality shouldn't offcialy exist, it can decrease birthrate, and we know that basic purposes in our lives are: to survive and to reproduce.

Also, the homosexual community are abnormal, strange, possibly dangerous. Don't believe? Go and watch their parades.
The state should have nothing to do with sexuality nor marriage, including approval, disapproval, and regulation.

Why is a decrease in birth rate bad? If anything, population densities in many regions of the world are already too high, and they show little sign of stalling. You are aware that the growth rate can decline while the population size still increases, right? A population of 1000 that grows at a rate of 5% annually for 10 years produces fewer individuals than annual growth over the following 10 years at 4%. 629 vs 782. The world population is currently ~7.5 billion.
worldgr.png

worldpop.png
As for the danger of homosexuals... unless rainbows are kryptonite, you're pretty S.O.L. on the danger argument.

Who is more dangerous? These guys:
Or these guys:
Yeah, the gays are the fucking enemy... :rolleyes:
 
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