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Rest in peace Charlie Kirk

threeStepfourStep

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He was one of us, just speaking his mind whether it was right or not.

It's odd, I never hated him, nor did I tactly agree with what he was saying, since I lacked a lot of context, but it's like a familiar part of me quietly passed. He was kind of like a feature of the political turmoil in the US.

I hope his life inspires others to do better. Rest in peace.
 

Hadoblado

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I can't pretend I care about his passing. His death was high profile but it's just one more instance of political violence.

I'm seeing a lot of agitation toward further political violence from the left and right despite the identity and intentions of the shooter being currently unknown. Sociopathic behaviour from both IMO. Sure I don't really care about him dying, but at least I'm not weaponising it. I do wonder how much of it is botfarmed.

For what it's worth, he did seem like a capable individual even if I disliked him and his view. He was IMO one of the stronger debaters on the right, and he was a very strong political organiser.
 

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I remember reading an article a few days back about how seeing vioence triggers a fight response. That's probably the phenomena we're seeing (and will continue to see) for the next few days, even weeks.

I care about his death on a human level, but I'm staying put to see the effect it has on the social, political fabric.

I think this event could have a reorienting of the values America currently has. It's ironic, it's literally a day away from 9/11.
 

Hadoblado

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It's 9/11 here.

I'm not sure if I agree with the F&F thing. This was more of an assassination. Same with the attempt on Trump and the Luigi killing. All these mass shooting that are happening too - they're not a response to something happening in the moment. They're premeditated.

I also think you're being extremely optimistic if you think this will reorient values. Any need for change will be externalised and dumped on perceived enemies.
 

threeStepfourStep

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It's 9/11 here.

I'm not sure if I agree with the F&F thing. This was more of an assassination. Same with the attempt on Trump and the Luigi killing. All these mass shooting that are happening too - they're not a response to something happening in the moment. They're premeditated.

I also think you're being extremely optimistic if you think this will reorient values. Any need for change will be externalised and dumped on perceived enemies.

Oh I don't mean it in terms of the people who committed the murders, I mean the general way people are reacting to the incident. From media posts to politicans remarking on it, there's a lot of snark. That tenor is probably going to persist for a bit.

I mean the people's reaction to the killing, not the catalyst for the killing themselves.

Oh I do think it'll reorient values. Charlie stood for something on the youth. He wasn't the poster boy for everyone on the political spectrum, but he was someone who was able to be understood by most people. I'm not saying he had the right ideas, but the ability to be understood, because of where he came from, probably had resonance with a lot of people. I think those who attacked him from the left might be marginalized even more, if they dismiss his death.

When I mean reorient, I more mean something of a rallying. When 9/11 happened people rallied together and hoped for the best. The political consequence of the invasion of Iraq did happen a bit after that, but for a time Americans came together.

I think if the right understands what's important, they won't press on to weaponize what happened.
 

Hadoblado

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Ooooh that makes much more sense. I still see it as a bit optimistic but it's a lot more understandable.

I think people who are sufficiently politically galvanised are looking for ammunition because their very being is being repurposed toward political ends. Yes, it'll get people's blood up, but it's more than that.

Re: Reorienting and coming together
I guess we'll see. I expect no such thing. I think people will "come together" in affirming their intergroup hostilities (especially if this turns out to have been a leftist). If it's a rightwinger or w/e it'll get cycled out of the news. I think that yes he was high profile, but America is so damn used to this shit by now. They're exceedingly efficient at ignoring violence when it suits them.
 

threeStepfourStep

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Yeah if it was a right winger that'll be a headturner.

Oh I don't think the US is used to political figures on the right being targetted like this. People on the left, for sure, but not on the right (Trump to me is an outlier because he's a bit more wishy washy on beliefs). Kirk on the other hand really believed in what he argued for.

I think the difference is that he's an average American, in the sense that he's white, hetero, and without experience in college or higher academia. People who've dealt with the brunt of political violence now have been marginalized people, or someone elite. Kirk is pretty average considering the demographic landscape of the US.

Well, anyway, yeah, we'll have to see though.
 

Chibi

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Please let me know if I go over the line.

Charlie's death is a political assassination. What happened to him is definitely not good. Bro wasn't even involved in political sphere, he was just speaking his mind. The first amendment is the only thing that we have that holds us against having violence.

But when you fuck with violence, when you speak on behalf of violence, you are going to GET violence. This is an outcry against the current state of things, and it will only get worse.

Violence is not your friend, it is not your neighbor. It's real. You think the video of Charlie Kirk is bad? Imagine what happens in American schools. Imagine that with children who have done absolutely nothing wrong.

This is radical escalation of a system that chooses to ignore these things, this is a soapbox from a sniper's nest. This will keep happening.
 

Hadoblado

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Can I ask in what way he spoke on behalf of violence?

I think you're okay? So long as we're not glorifying or encouraging it and people aren't being retards about it we should be able to discuss it.

Edit: By retard I mean don't grab a pitchfork and start ratcheting up violent rhetoric, especially before we know who is responsible.
 

Chibi

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Can I ask in what way he spoke on behalf of violence?

I think you're okay? So long as we're not glorifying or encouraging it and people aren't being retards about it we should be able to discuss it.
What are you talking about? His final words were literally mocking mass shootings.

Edit; if you're genuinely asking and you don't know much about him, he has been promoting violent ideology for 10-15 years now. There's a video of him saying that "some gun deaths are necessary, as long as it means we can keep protecting our second amendment".
 

Hadoblado

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??

I'm asking a question. I'm not that familiar with him. What were his final words?
 

Chibi

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??

I'm asking a question. I'm not that familiar with him. What were his final words?
Ah okay. So this is , like, absolutely huge.

Charlie Kirk is an infamous podcaster who regularly debates people. He is extremely right wing. If you don't know how big he was, one of the most recent South Park episodes was about him, it aired less than a month ago.

His main shtick is that he goes to college campuses and "owns" liberals through debate, and he has a huge following of red-pilled conservatives.

Right before he was shot, he was asked a question: "do you know how many mass shootings in the last 10 years there have been in America?" And he answered "counting or not counting gang violence?" and then he was shot.

Right before that he was speaking shit about trans people being the cause of "many" mass shootings.
 

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I don't know his position outright, but the picture I get from him is that violence is sometimes the outcome of a society that supports free speech.

I don't want to put words in his mouth of be an advocate of anything, but if you imagine guns were taken away, for example, in a bizzaro world where Trump went overboard with his policies and actually revived a type of facism, would or would not guns be something that is necessary to free speech? Gun violence that associates itself with governmental power and gun violence that is a result of the down pressures of society are different. One comes from a political actor and one is a systemic/structural issue.
 

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I don't know his position outright, but the picture I get from him is that violence is sometimes the outcome of a society that supports free speech.
Are you genuinely asking if guns and gun violence qualifies as "free speech"?

Is Charlie Kirk being shot and bled out from a major artery, dying instantly, in front of his family and thousands of onlookers the same as saying "I don't like the state of things and I want change?".

How many more kids and innocent people have to be shot in order to make the point clear, if it is all free speech
 

fluffy

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Gun violence is not free speech.

Is that what Kirk was promoting?

I never heard of him until now.
 

Chibi

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Gun violence is not free speech.

Is that what Kirk was promoting?

I never heard of him until now.
He has been oppressing people for many years. Standing up for gun rights. Saying horrible things about women, lgbtq, blacks, and immigrants. Extreme abortion takes. He basically spoke on every right wing ideology in the book, extremely.

Did he deserve to get shot? No. Did he get what was coming to him? ...
 

Hadoblado

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To be clear, I'm aware of his general schtick, I just don't generally watch that sort of content so his specific positions aren't something I'm intimately familiar with.

Re: Free speech
America is the last place on Earth that guns will ensure free speech. It has the most powerful military on Earth. There can be no uprising against a military that strong. I don't hate guns, but America has a real problem and the rhetoric regarding governmental resistance is empty. The only speech that a gun will guarantee against the American government is that which it would have given you without the gun.

TBH the fact this shooting can happen at all kinda shows how little more guns do to protect people.

Kirk has been on camera saying that people getting shot is the price we pay for second amendment rights:

Charlie Kirk (2023): "I think it's worth to have a cost of unfortunately some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the 2nd Amendment. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."

Re: Chibi
Can you clarify the diff between deserving it and getting what's coming to him? They seem like the same thing to me :S
 

fluffy

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In a state where both free speech and guns are basic rights, it's might seem they are in conflict in some ways. Might be that guns in the wrong hands and people saying things to the wrong people or those people being offended by others speech makes it so that bad outcomes can occur.
 

threeStepfourStep

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Power protects free speech, yes. It doesn't have to be guns, but in America, some people want guns to be a part of the political power dyanmics within the country. Money is a power dynamic in the country that protects free speech, for example.

I'm not saying guns or violence is free speech, but rather, saying that without power, free speech cannot be protected.

I think we should clarify what free speech is- free speech to me is to be able to speak in a political manner which equals the weight of others in the political realm. If you do not have power behind those words, that is not free speech, but speech that has no political strength.

Hobbes I think is probably the best way to understand it:

CHAPTER XIII. OF THE NATURALL CONDITION OF MANKIND, AS CONCERNING THEIR FELICITY, AND MISERY

Nature has made men so equal in their physical and mental capacities that, although sometimes we may find one man who is obviously stronger in body or quicker of mind than another, yet taking all in all the difference between one and another is not so great that one man can claim to have any advantage ·of strength or skill or the like· that can’t just as well be claimed by some others. As for •strength of body: the weakest man is strong enough to kill the strongest, either by a secret plot or by an alliance with others who are in the same danger that he is in.


Power protects speech so that a political process can occur. That's the basic argument. But of course, allowing guns in the public also allows room for their misuse. That's where the political contention is. I'm not arguing one over the other, but that the horns of the dilemma are different here. One side speaks of political power, one side speaks of innocents being killed. I think understanding what both of these entail helps progress the discourse.

I think one way to constructively frame this is:

how can we wield power that does not harm innocents but is able to allow free speech to occur? can we come to that in our society?
 

Chibi

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.Re: Chibi
Can you clarify the diff between deserving it and getting what's coming to him? They seem like the same thing to me :S

Sure. I don't think anyone deserves to be shot, at least maybe not 99% of people. Def not him. He wasn't even directly involved in politics.

He did, however, incite violence and oppression and drastically further the political atmosphere in this country. "Get what's coming to him" is something I meant almost like fate. Like, if you're gonna be spreading ideas bigotry and hatred and violence and oppression, you're gonna inevitably be on the opposite end of it.
 

Chibi

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how can we wield power that does not harm innocents but is able to allow free speech to occur? can we come to that in our society?

yeah I'd love to hear you out but another school in Colorodo was shot up yesterday so I don't even want to hear it.

gun violence is so extreme here I'm almost afraid to do anything. I hear shots constantly.

The average citizen does not need access to tools that can destroy. period.
 

threeStepfourStep

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how can we wield power that does not harm innocents but is able to allow free speech to occur? can we come to that in our society?

yeah I'd love to hear you out but another school in Colorodo was shot up yesterday so I don't even want to hear it.

gun violence is so extreme here I'm almost afraid to do anything. I hear shots constantly.

The average citizen does not need access to tools that can destroy. period.

I understand your frustrations, but do you at least understand the argument from the other side?
 

Chibi

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I understand your frustrations, but do you at least understand the argument from the other side?
Nope, not in the slightest. Do I "understand" it as in I see the intention? Sure. Do I "understand" it as logical? No.

Charlie Kirk openly stated he believed gun deaths were unfortunately necessary to maintain the second amendment. He called empathy a virus. He’s been preaching violence forever. I sympathize with his family, and the innocent people in the audience. But he openly stated that exactly what happened was “necessary”

In his own words, his death means absolutely nothing to me. When you think about the kids in schools who have been shot just like that, bleeding from the necks, skulls cracked open and brain everywhere, their classmates having to watch, some as young as 7 years old.

I don't want to fucking hear it
 

Hadoblado

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Re: 1step
It seems to me like American speech isn't particularly free. There's nothing magic about it. But they do pay a huge cost in dead children to be able to beat their chest about being free.

I think it's a good question you're asking. It's worth talking about. I just can't bring myself to take the American answer to it seriously. I know you're being genuine but it's sort of wild to me that you'd frame it like that.

I can't help but be reminded of that time SBC convinced a bunch of Republicans to endorse putting weapons in the hands of 3 year olds:


These people don't care about saving lives or free speech. Some of these guys endorsed training toddlers with mortars and grenades. They obviously don't give a fuck, and these are not just randoms off the street, these are public representatives and heads of organisations.

So before taking your framing seriously I'd want to hear some justification to show that America's speech is actually more free than other places and that they have a snowballs chance in hell of standing up to a fascistic American military. Because to me it's a non-starter.
 

fluffy

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The United States is a large country that if you want to enforce a policy you need the people to get behind it otherwise those in power will soon be out of power in the next election cycle. People generally get on with whatever business they do not thinking about what others say or do. They keep to themselves. But in a place where you want civilization you are going to have to make sure life functions and that entails making sure the laws are followed.

When people break laws it means the crime has to be dealt with and it's not trivial to say you need an entire system to deal with it. A police force or civilian led power but going up the chain of power you need the system not to be corrupt. A corrupt system initiates revolt.

Back when America was or had no control over the people, before you could make people know that enforcement was possible, you cannot just get rid of a persons ability to defend themselves. If guns are a problem then what can be done is that you need tighter restrictions on mass movement and more information on locations of weapons and people. That was impossible 20 years ago.

The state has powers to actively protect its citizens and it's has been using more information but in terms of privacy or just other rights in general those restrictions cannot operate in a complete totality over an entire continent. We have 50 states in the United States and have local cities and county municipalities. It's wide and open where people go and what they do. Half the USA is not even populated (the West is mostly empty)

The reason most crimes occur is do to poverty and people not knowing what to do in life. All states have programs to deal with basic needs but it's not enough to give people meaning or purpose. And we don't have others forcing us into being a unified mindset. People are allowed to do what they want but it's because nobody can enforce anything different.

The restrictions seen in other countries don't apply. We are too big for any governance that doesn't handle local politics. Everything people do is meant first to come locally, local laws local taxes schools and political endeavors of all kinds. It's not something a national system can impose on the people as the people are not concentrated enough to be controlled. So violence is a matter of the problem being a local process. And people at any local level must agree. Agreement from a top down perspective never was thought of so it never was implemented. Everything just spread out with no central plan.
 

Chibi

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So violence is a matter of the problem being a local process
I'm just wondering how much more it takes to finally consider gun restriction laws
 

threeStepfourStep

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@Chibi I totally understand. For the record, I don't agree with Kirk either, but I think it's important to understand both sides of the argument if you want to understand the political process that's occuring in the US. My understanding of the issue comes from political philosophy. In school, we had to read a lot of historical, political and literary contexts to understand how liberalism came to birth itself. There's a lot to ramble on about but I'll stop there.

@Hadoblado Well I think the US military is much more steeped in understanding to protect the consitution that even if Trump somehow gets one or two generals to act on his behalf, the entire personel of the military wouldn't fall in line. The political inflection point would be the deaths of those hypothetical protestors who had guns with them that would trigger the national outrage that would pull the rug of legitimacy under away from him. I think the US is freer in the sense that there's a vast seperation of powers because of the tradition of civichood. I don't know the tenor of civic mindedness in Australia (the relationship between the prime minister and the army), but imagine a country where the executive and the military were in bed together. The US is not that. The US has a political tradition and a politcal culture that tries to guard from just that. We might see it fading, but that's another story, which probably is the current political metadiscourse. I don't know if that helps.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay so the exact situation in which the guns come in handy is when the military turns against the populace, but not the entire military (<half). And then the rogue elements decide to kill the armed citizens, and the non-rogue military, which was passive until now, is compelled to action.

Also it's important that they're holding guns when they die because without a weapon in hand their deaths can safely be ignored?

I'm 99% sure I'm not following sorry :confused:
 

threeStepfourStep

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Okay so the exact situation in which the guns come in handy is when the military turns against the populace, but not the entire military (<half). And then the rogue elements decide to kill the armed citizens, and the non-rogue military, which was passive until now, is compelled to action.

Also it's important that they're holding guns when they die because without a weapon in hand their deaths can safely be ignored?

I'm 99% sure I'm not following sorry :confused:

If they're not holding guns, the rouge actor can just apply force and cuff those people and send them to detention or jail or whatever. If you don't have power, you will be subdued.
 

Chibi

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they're not holding guns, the rouge actor can just apply force and cuff those people and send them to detention or jail or whatever. If you don't have power, you will be subdued.
Other countries have been banning guns and having neither the police force or the citizen holding guns. Guess what? Those countries don't have mass shootings.
 

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they're not holding guns, the rouge actor can just apply force and cuff those people and send them to detention or jail or whatever. If you don't have power, you will be subdued.
Other countries have been banning guns and having neither the police force or the citizen holding guns. Guess what? Those countries don't have mass shootings.

That's not what Hado was asking. Hado was asking how guns would prevent (or migitate) a facist take over.

I think for your own views, we would have to find a country which indeed had a facist or right wing takeover, with a condition that the left caved because they did not have arms to prevent the hostile take over. If I were to fetch from my memory, Putin's political rival was poisoned because he did not have the political power to be able to protect himself. Alexi Navalny was his name. You can argue that Putin was able to hold on to power uncontested because the people of Russia have no alternative to voice discontent against the war in Ukraine.
 

Chibi

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they're not holding guns, the rouge actor can just apply force and cuff those people and send them to detention or jail or whatever. If you don't have power, you will be subdued.
Other countries have been banning guns and having neither the police force or the citizen holding guns. Guess what? Those countries don't have mass shootings.

That's not what Hado was asking. Hado was asking how guns would prevent (or migitate) a facist take over.

I think for your own views, we would have to find a country which indeed had a facist or right wing takeover, with a condition that the left caved because they did not have arms to prevent the hostile take over. If I were to fetch from my memory, Putin's political rival was poisoned because he did not have the political power to be able to protect himself. Alexi Navalny was his name. You can argue that Putin was able to hold on to power uncontested because the people of Russia have no alternative to voice discontent against the war in Ukraine.
There is no evidence of countries unable to hold their own or "caved" to a fascist leaderships *because* they didn't have guns.

Authoritarian regimes rise because of institutional collapse and military loyalty, not because average people lacked firearms.
 

threeStepfourStep

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Generally it's difficult in the world of political science to test these hypothesis' because scientific methods are unfeasible. But you can imagine that Alexi Navalny might have lived if he had more power. Again, I am not for gun violence or gun rights, I am using an argument to illustrate the dilemma.


Authoritarian regimes rise because of institutional collapse and military loyalty, not because average people lacked firearms.

Again, my argument was that if there is no power, that very institutional collapse and military loyalty are more likely to occur. If, in a hypothetical scenario, a country did infact have more arms, a loyal military would not have the incentive to follow the orders of a compromised executive. But yes, if the populace did in fact have plentiful arms, there would obviously be much more violence, but it would deter the military from taking action.

So again, we have to frame the question constructively, which I mentioned previously. I think you should be understanding the argument now. I'm not for it either way here, I haven't disclosed my personal opinion on the matter.
 

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this sort of events make masks rapidly come off

just note the people who start saying things like "yeah, well, he did have some inflammatory views" etc. You have then identified a person whose soul has been corroded by ideology to the point where they have lost the ability to feel compassion for a human that was murdered

as for Charlie Kirk, i am not really familiar with his work, but i do recall an interview he did with the The Young Turks. Despite the absolute political disagreement between him and TYT, it was one of the most respectful, civil discussions i have seen in US politics. I believe he was a man of discourse and reason
 

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this sort of events make masks rapidly come off

just note the people who start saying things like "yeah, well, he did have some inflammatory views" etc. You have then identified a person whose soul has been corroded by ideology to the point where they have lost the ability to feel compassion for a human that was murdered

as for Charlie Kirk, i am not really familiar with his work, but i do recall an interview he did with the The Young Turks. Despite the absolute political disagreement between him and TYT, it was one of the most respectful, civil discussions i have seen in US politics. I believe he was a man of discourse and reason

I understand the sentiment but disagree. It's not just inflammatory views that are being discussed, but views and political actions that increase the amount of violence experienced by others. He was okay with more people getting shot and advocated for more guns. This is the cost he deemed acceptable, I just imagine he didn't expect himself to be the one paying it.

But yeah, no real compassion from me. I didn't know them. That's not to say they're undeserving of compassion, I just don't have strong feelings about people on the other side of the world dying. I see most of the tears and smears as performative.
 

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Re: 1step
I genuinely appreciate your capacity to explore alternate perspectives. That said, I feel like you're playing enlightened centrist here a bit, sane-washing beyond the merit of the argument you present. People are dying all the time, tragically and innocently, to pay the cost of the lack of data regarding whether guns will be effective in holding back tyranny. You've come up with a thin scenario in which they might help, but people are definitely dying right now.

I like guns. I think they're fun and interesting. But America has a novel approach, pay an abnormally high death toll, and are closer to tyranny than other nations without guns. They have public representatives ready to put automatic weapons in the hands of three year olds (or did 7 years ago). They do this knowing their military is the most difficult to resist on Earth, regardless of a lack of data, we know it's unlikely to go well. I understand trying to honestly contend with a stated position, but at some point you've got to read between the lines. Just because an argument is made, doesn't mean it's sane or made in good faith.
 

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I think it would be better to think of the idea in terms of power rather than in guns. But yes, unfortunately, the gun issue in the US is a huge problem that overwhelms the political discourse because of its obvious moral component. I think the proponents of the gun issue come from a distinctly Hobbesian line of thinking, that we always have to be mindful of the state of nature. This is why, I think, people in the rural areas are more predisposed to guns, while people from urban settings understand how dangerous and foolish that is. Again, I think the issue is more of a cultural, psychological thing given the propensity to think one way if one is in a vastly different human enviornment.

I come from a very urbanized setting. I've talked about my past a lot before, and if I were to divulge that again, I come mostly from highly urbanized contexts, so the gun issue for me, at least on an instinctive, natural level, is just to abolish it. However, not everyone has lived life in urban contexts (I come from the LA area, Seoul and Tokyo). If I were to have grown up in the vast rural context, let's say, of Montana (choosing this place is arbitrary), because of the vastness of the region, it's unlikely that if someone were to threaten my life, I would not be able to wait for the police to handle the situation. Like imagine a vast countryside where your next door neighbor is miles and miles away from you. The police wouldn't even have enough manpower to cover the breath of this region, because that would take so much resources. A state which does not have a urban context might also lack funding because of its size, and the relatively low population plus the sheer size of the region might make it unfeasible. Here, take away guns, you take away the ability for that person in that region to safeguard his or her own life, and their family, their entire way of life, really. Most of us are from urban contexts, so this kind of situation is not intuitive for us. If a balance of power is not established, life or society falls into disarray, and this line of thinking, I think at least, is basically what drives the whole gun issue.

I personally don't like guns that much. When I was in the army, we had to clean them meticulously, and it's always a b**** trying to clean the barrel because grease would never 100% be cleaned off. We'd always have to collect our shells too, because a missing shell means a missing bullet.

The two other countries which I lived that is unrelated to the gun issue have very strict gun laws, and given their balance of power in society, the density and urbanization of the countries, plus their relatively newer democratic histories, I think it makes sense that guns are restrictive. But in the case of the US, I'm much more hesitant because of its pluralistic nature and deeper historical heritages.
 

fluffy

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Many places in the US are trying to ban homelessness

But what causes people to be homeless?

It seems that to ban something you need to know if banning it will be effective. Alcohol was banned in the 1920's then illegal alcohol caused organized crime. Drugs are illegal yet marijuana was made legal where I live but it's still a federal crime.

To ban guns completely would require a constitutional amendment and I don't think it's there yet. It's too important to most people. As of yet no one thinks of crime guns or the homeless in the same category of what problems we don't understand or have a solution to. No understanding of the causes or the ability to enforce solutions. They linger as something that cannot be fixed currently.

So pragmatically you just need more police and investigations to keep bad actors away from the civilian population in case of guns. Homelessness, it is half way people seeking independence and mental illness and temporary situations just being incapable of taking care of themselves. To that you need more social workers that can help them with tasks they cannot do themselves.

All that costs money and unless people vote then it won't happen. Government programs in the past did not work because of resistance from all sorts of places and research was not done properly of the effectiveness of those programs.

Healthcare for example is not because we don't have good doctors or science but because the food lobbies want unhealthy devoted customers and drug lobbies want to sell drugs not cure people. If you cannot make money off the problem then the problem gets solved faster but if there is a profit motive companies are incentivized to keep the problem going as long as possible. Healthcare is not complicated but if there's no profit motive no money is made. So people get sick and tons of money is made by the large companies. And people don't know how to take care of themselves.

My jive is that you don't fix things by banning them. Europeans don't ban drugs they provide health services but they are broken into small countries that do this individually. That cannot happen in a country large as the USA controlled by giga corporations. This no healthcare creates more mental illness creates more crime leads to more guns to feel safe. Solve health care you solve half the problem. Also stopping bullying in schools helps to.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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I say again:
America is unique in its access to guns, and it is unique in the number of shootings. These things are related.

If you want to know whether gun control works, just look basically anywhere else. Words are wind. Look at the deaths. Look at the gun numbers.

I gave the following prompt to grok:
"List all pre-NFA Australian mass shootings including their year. Make it a bullet-point list. Include the 1996 NFA. Then list every shooting since."

Shootings Prior to the 1996 Gun Ban​


The following list includes the 13 mass shootings in Australia between 1979 and 1996, defined as incidents in which four or more victims were killed by firearms in a single event (excluding the perpetrator). These incidents were identified in key studies evaluating the pre-ban period.


  • 1981: Campsie, New South Wales (family murders; 5 victims killed)
  • 1982: Tweed Heads, New South Wales (family murders; 6 victims killed)
  • 1984: Milperra, New South Wales (bikie gang shootout; 6 victims killed)
  • 1984: Wahroonga, New South Wales (family murders; 4 victims killed)
  • 1986: Canberra, Australian Capital Territory (family murders; 3 victims killed)
  • 1987: Pymble, New South Wales (family murders; 3 victims killed)
  • 1987: Hoddle Street, Melbourne, Victoria (random public shooting; 7 victims killed)
  • 1987: Canley Vale, New South Wales (family murders; 4 victims killed)
  • 1987: Queen Street, Melbourne, Victoria (random public shooting; 8 victims killed)
  • 1988: Patterson Lakes, Victoria (family murders; 3 victims killed)
  • 1988: Arnhem Land, Northern Territory (family murders; 4 victims killed)
  • 1993: Cangai, New South Wales (police ambush; 4 victims killed)
  • 1996: Port Arthur, Tasmania (public massacre; 35 victims killed)

Gun Ban​


  • 1996: National Firearms Agreement (NFA) enacted, implementing a nationwide ban on semi-automatic and automatic firearms for civilians, a large-scale buyback program, and stricter licensing and storage requirements.

Shootings After the 1996 Gun Ban​


Under the same definition of mass shootings (four or more victims killed by firearms in a single incident, excluding the perpetrator), no such events have occurred in Australia since the implementation of the NFA in late 1996. This absence spans nearly three decades and is a key metric cited in evaluations of the reforms' impact. If a broader definition including injuries or fewer deaths is applied, isolated incidents (primarily domestic or gang-related) have been recorded, but none match the scale or frequency of the pre-ban period.

So we had 13 mass shootings in 13 years. A conservative politician enacted the NFA, and then in the nearly 30 years since we haven't had a single one.

@fluffy Did gun control work in Australia?

@threeStepfourStep Is Australia now more vulnerable to fascism than America?
 

fluffy

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Gun Ban

1996: National Firearms Agreement (NFA) enacted, implementing a nationwide ban on semi-automatic and automatic firearms for civilians, a large-scale buyback program, and stricter licensing and storage requirements.

It seems that specifically these kinds of weapons were banned (underlined) in Australia.

Seems reasonable.

Americans would have to consent of course as the Congress and Senate and executive branch are all involved in the process. (The supreme Court would need to up held it)

Tho it's going to be tough as trying to solve other issues. (Like healthcare and homeless ness)
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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I'm not sure on the individual steps, but the first thing I would do is remove the influence of money from groups like the NRA who push the nation toward gun consumption. Licensing and background checks seem necessary, probably mandatory lessons in handling a gun. Increases to violent crime is an externality of the profit motive of weapon manufacturers.

Possessing a deadly weapon should be taken at least as seriously as driving a car.
 

threeStepfourStep

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@Hadoblado I'm aware of how Australia collected their guns after some mass shooting, and after that the gun issue was solved.

I think I agree with Obama that after Sandy Hook, the issue of gun control became incredibly hard to amend. He thinks America missed its chance during that time, and perhaps he's right.

Again, the problem is trying to solve the political impasse. I'm just trying to elaborate the issue, with all its ugly sides and cultural connotations.

To be completely honest, I haven't fully gone into the surrounding context during Sandy Hook (both politically and culturally), so it would be difficult for me to compare where Australia and America diverged.

Also, did Australia completely ban their guns? From your post it looks like they banned more destructive guns rather than all of them. I totally agree that there should some common sense gun laws, if you wanted my opinion. As to the exact detail, I don't have much insight into it.

Anyway, I didn't necessarily want this to be some huge policy/historical dive into gun issues, but here we are lol. I think we're coming from different points. Mine's much more conceptual and yours is facts.
 

Hadoblado

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I'm not sure on the exact laws, but it's hard to get a gun. I've got a friend who's getting her gun license and she said she needed to own a farm and attend training not only initially but ongoing as well. I talked to a teacher who has his and he said it's nearly impossible to get unless you can justify it in terms of pest control.

Fair enough regarding deep diving. There was a thread some years back where we all did our best to do some research on it but it petered out.
 

dr froyd

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I understand the sentiment but disagree. It's not just inflammatory views that are being discussed, but views and political actions that increase the amount of violence experienced by others. He was okay with more people getting shot and advocated for more guns. This is the cost he deemed acceptable, I just imagine he didn't expect himself to be the one paying it.

But yeah, no real compassion from me. I didn't know them. That's not to say they're undeserving of compassion, I just don't have strong feelings about people on the other side of the world dying. I see most of the tears and smears as performative.

see, there's an incongruency here. First you say: he had inflammatory views, his views "increased violence experienced by others", he advocated for more guns, etc. Which is obviously making the point that it was his own fault. And then you say "i don't care about people on the other side of the world", which is a completely different thing. But this reveals what the real factor is.

the left is paradoxical bunch. They popularized the concept of "victim blaming" as one of the most heinous transgressions. They are the bleeding-heart humanitarians who can be sent into uncontrolled rage from hearing a misuse of pronouns. But watching someone getting executed for having a certain political leaning - that's all cool, it's just a part of the game
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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I understand the sentiment but disagree. It's not just inflammatory views that are being discussed, but views and political actions that increase the amount of violence experienced by others. He was okay with more people getting shot and advocated for more guns. This is the cost he deemed acceptable, I just imagine he didn't expect himself to be the one paying it.

But yeah, no real compassion from me. I didn't know them. That's not to say they're undeserving of compassion, I just don't have strong feelings about people on the other side of the world dying. I see most of the tears and smears as performative.

see, there's an incongruency here. First you say: he had inflammatory views, his views "increased violence experienced by others", he advocated for more guns, etc. Which is obviously making the point that it was his own fault. And then you say "i don't care about people on the other side of the world", which is a completely different thing. But this reveals what the real factor is.

the left is paradoxical bunch. They popularized the concept of "victim blaming" as one of the most heinous transgressions. They are the bleeding-heart humanitarians who can be sent into uncontrolled rage from hearing a misuse of pronouns. But watching someone getting executed for having a certain political leaning - that's all cool, it's just a part of the game

I'm sorry you feel that way but...

We don't know that's why he was killed, and my reasoning had nothing to do with political leaning. Leftists also engage in similar stuff (there's a lot of doxxing/swatting going on and it's toxic af) and as far as I'm concerned if you start profiting off violence then I'm not upset when you fall victim to it.

I'm not really interested in getting culture warred or reduced to the label of leftist.
 

dr froyd

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@Hadoblado well let's put it this way: to me, someone getting murdered for their opinions is a heinous crime in general - not just against that person but against humanity as a whole. I would be equally horrified at that regardless of the political leaning of the victim. I wouldn't start inserting caveats like "yeah but he had inflammatory opinions". For this particular case, let's not pretend politics doesn't play a role.

if, say, a trans activist got executed on stage while talking about trans issues, and someone said "gee, that's terrible, but his opinions might have been inflammatory to right-wingers", i suspect the reaction would be rather different
 

dr froyd

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a lot of left-wing media has been inserting adjectives like "divisive" when talking about the victim; it's a strategy of subliminally make you accept the idea that some people deserve to be killed for their opinions. It's a form of ideologically driven psychopathy. It's nothing new of course, but it's quite disturbing to watch
 

fluffy

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a lot of left-wing media has been inserting adjectives like "divisive" when talking about the victim; it's a strategy of subliminally make you accept the idea that some people deserve to be killed for their opinions. It's a form of ideologically driven psychopathy. It's nothing new of course, but it's quite disturbing to watch

No one deserves to be killed for their opinions. It's just more likely to be happen if you are a public figure. Recently I saw on a tv program that the guy who killed John Lennon said he shot him just to be famous. Having opinions makes people angry so other people will not like you saying such opinions. Left or Right.
 
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