Sacrifice vs Vocation

[Redfire]

People who achieved what they wanted to achieve. Was that because:
1: They experienced some sort of satisfaction along the way?
2: The final goal meant enough for them to make sacrifices along the way?
3: Some combination of both?

It could depend on the person, of course.
e.g: Elon Musk wants to get to Mars. He builds a company (Zip2), sells it, builds a second company (Paypal), sells it, builds another company (Tesla Motors), and another (SpaceX), which is basically taking over NASA. He majored in physics, and most likely enjoys it very much. But he didn't HAVE to conquer another planet. He could've done a PhD on physics, worked as a regular programmer; he had many options. And he chose one where he is exposed to astronomical amounts of stress, which have led to some panic attacks, kept him away from his family, destroyed his social life, etc.
I obviously simplified this man to a ridiculous extent (getting to Mars wasn't even his life mission, but it's certainly impressive and he'll probably get there), it's just an example. But: where does he stand on the previous question? What if I want to do something as ambitious as that? Like: cure cancer. Get to Jupiter. Whatever. (no I'm not planning on doing that, it's hypothetical). Could it be that I'm just not meant to do it? I don't like the right things, or can't tolerate the stress?

My answer:
I lean towards "only you can answer that". But I want as much feedback as possible.

 

[Architect]

Yes those two things but they are the least of it.

The main factors in achieving your goals are

• Knowing what you want (most people have no clue really) through and through, "balls to bones" as the Oracle says
• Having some confidence that you can get it (most people would rather shoot themselves in the head than achieve their goals)
• Having some tolerance for the pain that accompanies achieving goals (most people would rather reach for the bag of chips than solve calculus problems or do a long jump)
• Have a measure of luck (this plays a not small role)

The modern world loves to help people achieve their goals but people are entirely self destructive.



Elon Musk is a special case that shouldn't be used for comparison because he's a self driven nutcase. Not a lot of people fall into his example. The better example is any college professor, engineer, doctor, lawyer, business owner, MBA etc that you happen to know.

 

[OptiMist_Prime]

I'm not sure I understand your issue exactly...I was tempted to read your previous posts but I am too lazy...if I'm way off the mark, sorry….but I'm sure you know that you need both satisfaction and sacrifice to achieve your goals. I vaguely recall something about the reward circuit part of the brain...I would imagine Elon's brain is more or less like the rest of ours too, so no, it really doesn't depend on the person, I don't think. And pursuing a goal without sacrifice is like getting 2 dozen green lights on your way home, it just doesn't happen. Life happens.

...What if I want to do something as ambitious as that? Like: cure cancer. Get to Jupiter. Whatever. (no I'm not planning on doing that, it's hypothetical). Could it be that I'm just not meant to do it? I don't like the right things, or can't tolerate the stress?...

“What if I want to do something as ambitious as that?”

OK, and? I mean that would be awesome. You seem stressed out about it though….

“Could it be that I'm just not meant to do it? I don't like the right things, or can't tolerate the stress?”

Yes, yes, and yes. Of course. That's true for any one of us. (Welcome to the human race.) Are you trying to have a much foresight as possible so you can avoid false starts and disappointments by mapping out with great precision the trajectory of your career or something?

To use your hypothetical example, if you wanted to cure cancer and you think you have the right interest (biology/chemistry/physics/math etc for example) but you're not quite sure that you do in fact have a high interest for the long-haul and you want to avoid the disappointment of realizing after years of work that well, you only sort of like biology and the whole curing-cancer thing? Is that it? So you are stressing out about taking your skills/aptitude inventory correctly before you embark on an arduous 12-year triple-major-Post-doc-MD journey or something? Are you having a gut-check moment?

Or like an identity/existential crisis? Ah, right, it must be the latter? But if it is a gut check, I think if you are having doubts, then maybe that's your subconscious' way of telling you that it's just not that into the idea. You have to follow your heart. You can't just use reason alone you know. Stupid INTP . Or are you really asking “What if I fail?” or “Who am I?” I get the feeling that you're reluctant to ask the real question maybe? You said your answer is “only you can answer that.”...and maybe I read the whole thing wrong, so sorry if I not getting it but, eh, what was the one question again, exactly?

 

[Redfire]

I guess I am having some sort of crisis, yes. I tried my make it general when it was more personal. I don't feel like I'm doing enough. This kind of feeling came before and went away eventually. I fluctuate between two goals: being a computer programmer and building a startup with some friends (I have ideas and my friends are very capable people, so I think it could happen), and becoming an author (I really like reading, it's by far the activity I most enjoy. And I write sometimes but not a lot. I don't have that much time, really, although I make the time when I'm inspired). But I sort of feel that if I keep doing things at this rate, I'll just have a good programming job, read in my free time, and maybe write sometimes (which includes doing a lot of research, of course, that's actually the part I most enjoy). And that's fine, of course.

But for some reason I feel it's not enough. I should write THE best fantasy book, or build THE best company in some particular area. Why? I don't know. But I know that if I want to do that, I need to redouble my efforts. Which I can totally do, I don't have kids, no girlfriend, and my friends don't take up that much time. But that would of course be stressful, and I'm quite stressed already. So: I don't know. I hope this doesn't sound too bitchy, I know there's nothing wrong with just being reasonably successful, but that's just how I feel. There's only one life, shouldn't we try to make the best of it?

Thanks for the answers, both of you. As Architect says I guess I should find out what I really want. Not easy though. I do find that people who are really successful usually really enjoy what they do, but there's no way I'm switching to English or something like that as a major, so I'll just have to make time for it as a hobby if that's the answer. No offense to anyone either, it's just that I really need a job afterwards, as I find out what I want.

 

[Inquisitor]

Better start reading those books on typology.

You're in a "crisis" you say and want to become an author and create greatness somehow? Are you INTP?

 

[Redfire]

Better start reading those books on typology.

You're in a "crisis" you say and want to become an author and create greatness somehow? Are you INTP?

I'm too busy and tired to fight if that's your goal. That kind of thing is behind me, I think.
And yes, I'm indeed an INTP.

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm too busy and tired to fight if that's your goal. That kind of thing is behind me, I think.
And yes, I'm indeed an INTP.

No. Most definitely not looking to have an argument. I only bring it up b/c from what I've read, your crisis sounds so much like you're in the grip of Fe.

The part about "greatness" (in your case writing a great novel or starting a great company) is a phase I went through as well. I think in general many young people tend to have this aspiration. That said, for an INTP the desire for external validation can be very strong due to the inferior function. Simply being a programmer and having an ordinary life does not appeal to the inferior in any way; it's too ordinary and seems flat and boring. The inferior is where everyone tends to feel most alive subjectively, and my guess is that's why the prospect of doing something commonly recognized (collective unconscious) as being great, and being recognized for it by others (extroverted feeling b/c it comes from outside) is extremely enticing.**

My guess is that what happens when you have a conscious thought concerning a grand prospect is that you experience some kind of powerful emotion in the chest. Of course when you think about the prospect of becoming an ordinary programmer, no such emotions rise to the surface. So, naturally, the latter seems "reduced" and "insufficient," since what you experience in your heart (ie what seems most real and makes you feel most alive) only happens when you consider these grand prospects.

So the trick is to realize that the inferior is projecting a layer over these grand prospects you have, and so the idea of writing a great novel or starting a great company suddenly is imbued with what's in the unconscious.

Ultimately though, in order to break out of this loop (thinking about the idea, having an emotion, going back to the idea), the experts write that you need to engage your other functions and think critically about what writing a novel and starting a company actually entails. You'll never break out of this crisis by trying to engage with your emotions directly. It's impossible. But if you direct your thoughts towards what you have to do to accomplish these great goals, you may come to realize that the acts of writing and entrepreneuring are just as ordinary as writing code.

FWIW, I don't believe INTPs make good fiction writers, nor are they good at building/running large companies. They are apparently highly represented among entrepreneurs, but I would strongly suspect that the vast majority of those are independent contractors/consultants with very few employees. To become the latter, you generally need some experience in a certain domain, and it's only possible to get that by becoming an employee (at least for a few years).

**BTW, everything I just wrote there was found in the foundational works of this field. You will not find such a detailed explanation of the mechanics of the functions anywhere online.

 

[Redfire]

Well, that makes sense, actually. But beyond that, I was just thinking today that worrying about this is a waste of energy. I think I should just focus on finishing my degree and getting a job, then worry about it later.

Where can I find these foundational works? Would you recommend any specific books?

 

[Urakro]

I am the same, I've got big ambitions to create something big and make money from it. It's just that the goal is stuck at the first part which is getting an initial idea of what it is.

It's weird because it's something that's not attainable from just thinking or idle imagining. I think it takes some going in and just winging it without knowing what I'm doing. Somehow in that process, I start developing that idea that I needed from the start.

Somebody wished me luck once, and it may have turned out really helpful. So I'll wish you luck with your ambitions. I'm not psychic, but I think I see an aura around your posts suggesting that you're going to end up doing something big.

 

[Redfire]

I am the same, I've got big ambitions to create something big and make money from it. It's just that the goal is stuck at the first part which is getting an initial idea of what it is.

It's weird because it's something that's not attainable from just thinking or idle imagining. I think it takes some going in and just winging it without knowing what I'm doing. Somehow in that process, I start developing that idea that I needed from the start.

Somebody wished me luck once, and it may have turned out really helpful. So I'll wish you luck with your ambitions. I'm not psychic, but I think I see an aura around your posts suggesting that you're going to end up doing something big.

Read Peter Thiel's Zero to One. You can get it on Amazon. And then read Paul Graham's essays. That's the best literature I've found so far on startups. The key: find some real problem to solve. Usually that comes when you have a problem and other people have the same one, except they don't realize they have it or don't have the ability/resources to solve it on a massive scale.

 

[Inquisitor]

Well, that makes sense, actually. But beyond that, I was just thinking today that worrying about this is a waste of energy. I think I should just focus on finishing my degree and getting a job, then worry about it later.

Where can I find these foundational works? Would you recommend any specific books?

The foundational works of the Jungian type system are Jung: Psychological Types (1921), van der Hoop: Character and the Unconscious (1923) and Conscious Orientation (1939), Von Franz: Lectures on Jung’s Typology (1961/71), as well as Myers: Gifts Differing (1980).

I'd also recommend anything by Lenore Thomson and Naomi Quenk.