Sinfest Feminism

[Cognisant]

I just did a catch-up binge of Sinfest and saw the latest Ctrl Alt Del comic (the one about the respect boner) and this is what came of it.

If Lara Croft is sexy why is that not respectable?
That just struck me as really odd.

The first thing that comes to mind is the classic double standard, it's okay indeed ideal for a man to be sexy and get laid a lot but wrong for a woman, but who decided that and why? I mean guys might discourage it from the angle that an immature one that's not getting laid may resent that other guys are getting laid while he's not, but that's a very personal thing, so why would I have an issue with Lara Croft getting laid a lot when firstly she's fictional, secondy even if she wasn't she wouldn't be a peer of mine, and thirdly that immaturity I spoke of is just a phase, usually not a long one either.

All in all I think if Lara Croft were some perverted sex maniac, I wouldn't care, nor would most guys, if she wants to hang out in her mansion stark naked I don't think we're the ones that would find that offensive, a little exploitive maybe if she's using her body to manipulate guys into doing stuff for her, but still that's only mildly offensive, I'd call that a man-eater not a whore.

So where is this coming from really?

I think it comes from other women, I think they're the driving force behind the shame game just as men are the driving force behind perceptions of manhood, not once in my entire life have I ever heard a guy complain that in a particular scene Ms Fanservice is wearing and talking too much, never, nor can I ever remember thinking that myself, indeed (and I expect many people can support me in this) I find female characters with interesting back stories and personalities significantly more attractive than if they were generic hot babes.

The whole reason I liked Lara Croft in the first place is because she had both an unrealistic figure and a strong intelligent independent character, neither appeal undermined the other, they were complementary.

 

[Felan]

If one has ever spent much time in a place like IMVU or Second Life, one realizes that given the choice women seem to almost universally choose unrealistic sexualized form and clothing. Personally I find the favored shape unappealing. It's more pronouned in IMVU, because clothing changes the body shape there where in Second Life you have to fit the clothing to your body shape.

In IMVU, the shoes have remodelled the feet to be this tiny disproprotionate freakish looking things, but the popularity of such feet drives the market to make more of them. For a long time in the butts and breasts have been getting bigger. Small heads and hands are common too. It's just weird, grotesque, and non-sensical to me.

Second Life has some of these trends too but since you can usually modify clothes it's less of a forced thing. Still big booty, big breasted, and skimpily dressed avatars is the norm.

 

[Duxwing]

I just did a catch-up binge of Sinfest and saw the latest Ctrl Alt Del comic (the one about the respect boner) and this is what came of it.

If Lara Croft is sexy why is that not respectable?
That just struck me as really odd.

The first thing that comes to mind is the classic double standard, it's okay indeed ideal for a man to be sexy and get laid a lot but wrong for a woman, but who decided that and why? I mean guys might discourage it from the angle that an immature one that's not getting laid may resent that other guys are getting laid while he's not, but that's a very personal thing, so why would I have an issue with Lara Croft getting laid a lot when firstly she's fictional, secondy even if she wasn't she wouldn't be a peer of mine, and thirdly that immaturity I spoke of is just a phase, usually not a long one either.

All in all I think if Lara Croft were some perverted sex maniac, I wouldn't care, nor would most guys, if she wants to hang out in her mansion stark naked I don't think we're the ones that would find that offensive, a little exploitive maybe if she's using her body to manipulate guys into doing stuff for her, but still that's only mildly offensive, I'd call that a man-eater not a whore.

So where is this coming from really?

I think it comes from other women, I think they're the driving force behind the shame game just as men are the driving force behind perceptions of manhood, not once in my entire life have I ever heard a guy complain that in a particular scene Ms Fanservice is wearing and talking too much, never, nor can I ever remember thinking that myself, indeed (and I expect many people can support me in this) I find female characters with interesting back stories and personalities significantly more attractive than if they were generic hot babes.

The whole reason I liked Lara Croft in the first place is because she had both an unrealistic figure and a strong intelligent independent character, neither appeal undermined the other, they were complementary.

I think that having a very sexualized character can be distracting and leave the audience wondering, "What is going on? Sex, plot, themes, symbols?". One might also experience cognitive dissonance if one sees sex as "dirty" or "crude," and admittedly, I find it to be something of an overused and trite trope: loaded with drama, tension, and the potential for disaster and exploitation. Also, I personally don't like Lara Croft's gigantic breasts because since hardly any human being has breasts that big, I am left wondering about the purpose of including such massive mammaries. Not only do I experience simple disgust-- as if I were looking at a piece of dog turd-- the first thought that comes to mind is "softcore porn," and I'm left feeling insulted. Doesn't the author think his audience capable of enjoying anything but the simplest, if not basest, of pleasures? I want art to engage my mind as much as it engages my eyes, and let's face the truth: porn, whether hardcore, softcore, or Marine Corps, is a purely sensory and emotional experience.

So I simply don't like how Lara Croft looks. But as for her sex life, I don't much care. Provided that no-one is getting hurt, I'll likely never look into it due to pure lack of interest, and if the stories of her bed-time bonanzas are to my liking, I might sit back and enjoy a few.

-Duxwing

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

The new Lara Croft is modest in comparison to the old ones. She is now a female version of Nathan Drake (Uncharted) ie. athletic. One problem with the character design is that for what she does, running/jumping/leaping/combat, her muscles are small and not defined. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Duxwing]

The new Lara Croft is modest in comparison to the old ones. She is now a female version of Nathan Drake (Uncharted) ie. athletic.

I like the new look! She looks great without giving you a kick in the eyeball.

-Duxwing

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I like the new look! She looks great without giving you a kick in the eyeball.

-Duxwing

She is maybe a tad bit too perfect. What do you think?

 

[Duxwing]

She is maybe a tad bit too perfect. What do you think?

If she were less perfect, then she would be perfect, and therefore too perfect once again.

But if you're talking about two different kinds of "perfect" then I could use some more detail.

-Duxwing

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

If she were less perfect, then she would be perfect, and therefore too perfect once again.

But if you're talking about two different kinds of "perfect" then I could use some more detail.

-Duxwing

I don't think I know what I am thinking about. Most of the people I do athletic activities (kayaking, hiking, in door soccer, etc.) with are somewhat attractive. I guess the image of the character put forward is not out of the ordinary.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I think she'll look pretty hot once she takes a nice long shower.

I don't see her working that bow for very long with those skinny, plain looking arms.

 

[Cavallier]

I think the moral standard placed on women is coming from other women as well. Personally, as a women, I honestly don't care if a woman either in real life or fictionalized is being "whorish" by today's standards. I think that if she has the sex drive, the desire, and the luck to find sexually attractive enough partners than she should have as much fun as she wants. (Given that she takes health precautions and doesn't pass around STDs.)

I am in no place to judge her. Besides, when it comes to being respectable (IRL at least) to be and stay sexy requires more than just genetically good looks. You have to work your ass off every week, eat very well every day with only a small margin for treats, maintain the wardrobe, and stay on top of proper application of beauty products. At the very least you can't eat what you want when you want and you certainly have to work out to look anything like Lara Croft. I respect that amount of devotion.

I think that if you work that hard and you want to have sex with a lot of people then I should congratulate you on a job well done. It might not be my personal goal but that doesn't matter.

Fictionalized overtly sexual women are listed under "odd human behavior" in my book. Real life women may roll their eyes at the ridiculously large breast or fawning aspect of a fictional babe but really what have they got to worry about? She's not real. Lara Croft can only maintain a certain amount of attraction as she is not in the flesh. However, many women are insecure little things and they do not like what they feel they have to compare themselves to.

I have male friends who say they don't like very sexual women in fiction because they find them to be ridiculous and hard to believe. To each their own.

Edit: @Inappropriate Behavior Her little chicken arms would get her about as far as her underfed thighs. However, I know one rock climber specifically who has small arms but is one strong girl. She's toned to the centimeters. She has genetically large thighs for her frame that look slightly out of character but she is very strong without looking strong. It's weird and kind of unusual certainly.

 

[loveofreason]

As a rockclimber in a previous life, I can attest to how surprising it is how much muscle strength can be developed without bulk.

Following what Cava noted....

If representations such as Lara are perceived as impossible standards of perfection and desirability (rather than extreme caricatures of specific features), women will react out of proportion to the actual significance of the imagery and in line with the degree of percieved 'threat' instead.

In the wider world I observe women judging other women, and judging representations of women. There is an enormous degree of threat posed to a woman's own status (acceptability? desirability?), if others around her are judged superior in any facet. Even if those others aren't real. Envy and insecurity are the norm.

I doubt that anyone despises a beautiful, confident and sexually satisfied woman as much as an insecure one does. Not every woman is afflicted so, but enough that it is the culturally dominant theme. It affects other measures of 'womanhood' also, such as mothering ability, and it's intergenerational. As age and regret cause those who haven't lived to meet their desires and potential, they judge the younger taking advantage of opportunities before them. Of course that's not the only possible reaction. Healthier psyches could make other choices of how to respond.

But as an example, many older mothers delight in condemning new mothers to the misery and sexual downturn ahead of them. Mothers that maintain a sexual persona are criticised - if she can look that good and be satisfied, she must be neglecting her kids. Models of 'superwomen' who 'have-it-all' are torn down. A kind of false glory applies - elevation of suffering/matrydom as the peak of attainment - but then there is absolute delight in seeing others fail to be anything more than a mother. The competition is high to be the most sleepless; the most vomited on. (All to the background of a kind of silent "hahaha, your life is over too, bitch, you'll never be a threat to me again") :/

It doesn't have to be that way... so why, among many groups, do women hate each other so much? From where all the envy; the misunderstanding of imagery? What are realistic models of appearance and behaviour and why do so many women confuse them with fantasy ones?

 

[Duxwing]

I think the moral standard placed on women is coming from other women as well. Personally, as a women, I honestly don't care if a woman either in real life or fictionalized is being "whorish" by today's standards. I think that if she has the sex drive, the desire, and the luck to find sexually attractive enough partners than she should have as much fun as she wants. (Given that she takes health precautions and doesn't pass around STDs.)

I am in no place to judge her. Besides, when it comes to being respectable (IRL at least) to be and stay sexy requires more than just genetically good looks. You have to work your ass off every week, eat very well every day with only a small margin for treats, maintain the wardrobe, and stay on top of proper application of beauty products. At the very least you can't eat what you want when you want and you certainly have to work out to look anything like Lara Croft. I respect that amount of devotion.

I think that if you work that hard and you want to have sex with a lot of people then I should congratulate you on a job well done. It might not be my personal goal but that doesn't matter.

And I entirely agree with the above.

Fictionalized overtly sexual women are listed under "odd human behavior" in my book. Real life women may roll their eyes at the ridiculously large breast or fawning aspect of a fictional babe but really what have they got to worry about? She's not real. Lara Croft can only maintain a certain amount of attraction as she is not in the flesh. However, many women are insecure little things and they do not like what they feel they have to compare themselves to.

Insecurity is a powerful thing. Indeed, why do women compare their beauty to that found in the products of others' imaginations? I rarely, if ever, see boys complaining that they aren't as strong as Superman or as smart as Tony Stark, but by your description, girls see Lara Croft and think "I wish I had GG cup breasts". The difference seems absurd: surely, if girls compare themselves to fantastic characters, then boys, as fellow humans, would, too.
Yet, to our knowledge, they don't.

I have male friends who say they don't like very sexual women in fiction because they find them to be ridiculous and hard to believe. To each their own.

I'm a bit confused: What does "very sexual" "ridiculous" and "hard to believe" mean in this sentence? A very sexual woman who is ridiculous and hard to believe could be one whose ten-ton breasts are as big as houses, and who has a small village of men in her four cubic kilometer vagina, but the same words could also describe a Parisian tango dancer whose fiery passions consume every Pierre, Jean, and Luc from the Louvre to the Seine; yet both of these would be distasteful to different groups of people. Moreover, context matters: If I saw the former woman in, for example, Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol, then I'd likely gag and look for a toilet, but if I saw the latter in the same film, then I would view her inclusion as par for the course.

Edit: @Inappropriate Behavior Her little chicken arms would get her about as far as her underfed thighs. However, I know one rock climber specifically who has small arms but is one strong girl. She's toned to the centimeters. She has genetically large thighs for her frame that look slightly out of character but she is very strong without looking strong. It's weird and kind of unusual certainly.

Lara Croft could very well be such a one.

-Duxwing

 

[loveofreason]

Insecurity is a powerful thing. Indeed, why do women compare their beauty to that found in the products of others' imaginations? I rarely, if ever, see boys complaining that they aren't as strong as Superman or as smart as Tony Stark, but by your description, girls see Lara Croft and think "I wish I had GG cup breasts". The difference seems absurd: surely, if girls compare themselves to fantastic characters, then boys, as fellow humans, would, too.
Yet, to our knowledge, they don't.

-Duxwing

True. What's really happening?

Might it be related to the way women more often than men are socialised to second-guess the needs of others, and hence become more sensitive to peripheral clues as to what is wanted/desired rather than utilise direct communication? Mind you, there have been countless centuries of environmental selection for women to be 'peripheral' readers. Rearing infants successfully requires accurate interpretations of non-language cues. It might be second nature to see what a man finds attractive in fantasy, and mistake it for a real need.

Not to discount the numbers of men that have also been raised neurotically to be care-givers Yet they still manifest typical capacity to separate visual fantasy from real expectations?

I think the capacity to objectify bodies is a really useful one - if a woman could see others this way she would be spared alot of self-created anguish. Also, it seems to cause despair for men that women don't see them this way? (Again, recognising that the capacity varies between individual women, but that as a trait, it is more frequently and more strongly expressed in men. I'd be curious to see how brain-sex chemistry compares in really butch dykes though. Does the propensity to objectify become stronger the more sexually dominant one is, regardless of biological sex? Does the capacity to detach from judgement, comparison and perceived inferiority, increase the less sexually competitive one becomes?)

Fascinating topic, really. I feel kind of ignorant.

 

[Double_V]

Women can't stand other woman being successful and sexy.

Woman shredded Palin over this, and it's the reason Hillary is deliberately becoming less and less attractive. She's becoming unsexy enough to be electable by women.

 

[joal0503]

The new Lara Croft is modest in comparison to the old ones. She is now a female version of Nathan Drake (Uncharted) ie. athletic. One problem with the character design is that for what she does, running/jumping/leaping/combat, her muscles are small and not defined. It just doesn't make sense.

Because the "new" lara croft is actually the young version of her. lean muscle can definitely provide for agile movement with powerful result.

and yeaaa....the game anyone play it? im not convinced from what ive seen.. .

anywwayyyys.

"he first thing that comes to mind is the classic double standard, it's okay indeed ideal for a man to be sexy and get laid a lot but wrong for a woman, but who decided that and why?"

thats a good question, from my meager observations, id say i dont see it that way much as it perhaps use to be. derogatory names have been used against both genders, and then you throw in gay/lesbian/bisexual communities (yes, they count) and you get a brand new set of awesome vocab to slang about. But sexual promiscuity within celebrities, could perhaps be an example of societal change towards this double standard. famous athletes are a good start, tiger Woods, politicians, generals, have had their careers ruined after such revelation. That dosent sound like acceptance like it was back in the day (slappingthesecretary'sbuttocks1950s.jpg) likewise, you get the zumba prostitute, hot ass teachers banging students, etc that can have the same results.

i think we're moving towards a common attitude, which isnt a bad thing (although fuck monogamy in general). as far as the driving forces, id just guess the machine of media is most responsible for that. I cant sit there and point the finger at a specific gender. it takes both genders to spread the misconceptions.

 

[Duxwing]

True. What's really happening?

Might it be related to the way women more often than men are socialised to second-guess the needs of others, and hence become more sensitive to peripheral clues as to what is wanted/desired rather than utilise direct communication? Mind you, there have been countless centuries of environmental selection for women to be 'peripheral' readers. Rearing infants successfully requires accurate interpretations of non-language cues. It might be second nature to see what a man finds attractive in fantasy, and mistake it for a real need.

Hmmm, true, selection pressure could play into this bizarre tick.

Not to discount the numbers of men that have also been raised neurotically to be care-givers Yet they still manifest typical capacity to separate visual fantasy from real expectations?

To the contrary, my sexual fantasies are exactly what I'd want in real life: a pretty girl with me in bed, a variety of sexual positions, and climax for both of us.

I think the capacity to objectify bodies is a really useful one - if a woman could see others this way she would be spared alot of self-created anguish.

Can you elaborate on this? Objectify how, exactly?

Also, it seems to cause despair for men that women don't see them this way?

If so, then perhaps they're experiencing the clash of a social narrative "be the prettiest princess in the land" with reality: Prince Charming might just want a smart, sweet girl with whom he can snuggle while discussing the universe. Heck, that's what I'd want to find after fighting a dragon, crawling through deadly ivy, and risking getting sued for kissing a sleeping person. Although I'd do it out of the goodness of my heart anyway (assuming that I'm capable) romantic feelings alone would be insufficient to make me save an airheaded bimbo.

The girl who sits in front of me in math class (an INFJ, I suspect) is a perfect example. She studies psychology and sociology, is a huge bookworm, and can match me in intellectual prowess. She's also very kind and forgiving of my quirks, a quality which, when combined with her intelligence, makes her a good prospect for a relationship. Her looks are nothing special, but, like you've said, I don't care about looks unless I can't look them in the eye without gagging, laughing, or dropping a turd in my pants. In essence, anyone whose appearance might elicit an expressive person to exclaim, "Oh the humanity!" is off my list. Yet, to make an allegory to economics, the marginal return on improved appearance decreases rapidly after the move from "I can look at you without horror, terror, or laughter" to "You are someone whose cheek I wouldn't mind finding upon my shoulder".

Awww, now you've got me imagining all sorts of warm and fuzzy things. Thanks!

(Again, recognising that the capacity varies between individual women, but that as a trait, it is more frequently and more strongly expressed in men. I'd be curious to see how brain-sex chemistry compares in really butch dykes though. Does the propensity to objectify become stronger the more sexually dominant one is, regardless of biological sex? Does the capacity to detach from judgement, comparison and perceived inferiority, increase the less sexually competitive one becomes?)

The degree to which an observer objectifies a person whom they observe is, in my experience, is equal to:

S*D*P

Where S = physical Separation, D = emotional Distance, and P = Power difference between the Observer and the Observed.

Ergo, for example, objectifying a soldier in North Korea is easy for a general in the United States, while objectifying his parents is much harder. In the former case, the North Korean soldier is far away (high S value) emotionally distant as an enemy combatant (high D value) and has much less power than the general (high P value) while objectifying his parents is much more difficult because they are likely physically close (low S value) emotionally dear to him (low D value) and hold a great deal of emotional power over him (low P value).

Fascinating topic, really. I feel kind of ignorant.

With research comes wisdom.

-Duxwing

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Yet, to make an allegory to economics, the marginal return on improved appearance decreases rapidly after the move from "I can look at you without horror, terror, or laughter" to "You are someone whose cheek I wouldn't mind finding upon my shoulder".

Edit: Who edited my post?

 

[Minuend]

Insecurity is a powerful thing. Indeed, why do women compare their beauty to that found in the products of others' imaginations? I rarely, if ever, see boys complaining that they aren't as strong as Superman or as smart as Tony Stark, but by your description, girls see Lara Croft and think "I wish I had GG cup breasts". The difference seems absurd: surely, if girls compare themselves to fantastic characters, then boys, as fellow humans, would, too.
Yet, to our knowledge, they don't.

False.

Guys with eating disorders are increasing. And there are quite a few that train for the looks. Whereas they end up exercising the upper body only, becoming disproportional triangles.

And you have this google search "tyler durden excercise"

The reason people start thinking this way, is because how strongly attractiveness is weighted in society. TV and internet very often have attractive persons in series or in commercials.

Teenagers (a very vulnerable phase were beliefs and perspectives become deeply rooted) are probably more likely to openly talk about the ugliness and loser status of people who don't fit the attractive model they've been used to.

Though, we find the silent thought pattern in the older:

The girl who sits in front of me in math class (an INFJ, I suspect) is a perfect example. She studies psychology and sociology, is a huge bookworm, and can match me in intellectual prowess. She's also very kind and forgiving of my quirks, a quality which, when combined with her intelligence, makes her a good prospect for a relationship. Her looks are nothing special, but, like you've said, I don't care about looks unless I can't look them in the eye without gagging, laughing, or dropping a turd in my pants.

There exist just one way of being objectively attractive. People may be charming, but calling them attractive when they don't fit the stereotype is less common. Instead, people are "accepted" because their personality must be over-average special.

You might not call them openly ugly, but they are not considered beautiful.

So we have people growing up thinking they only have value if they are attractive. Sure they can have a special personality, but that is nothing compared to being attrative. So we get people who sacrifice much to reach that ideal. And we call them stupid. Even when we are as brainwashed as they are.

Who's to blame? We all are.

I don't care about looks unless I can't look them in the eye without gagging, laughing, or dropping a turd in my pants.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Man-Documentary-film-to-highlight-plight.html

 

[loveofreason]

I haven't seen many cases where males act out insecurities due to not meeting fictionalised standards of appearance, sexual attractiveness or power - (...wait... oh yes I have How could I forget some of our favourite people are so ridiculously self-critical? You reminded me, Minuend - thanks.)

Given that little jolt, I'm willing to believe it's also a problem for an increasing proportion of males, due to the weight of cultural branding. Media is heavy indeed. But then what do these young men do with their feelings of insecurity? Do they tear down real or fictionalised males that represent a perfection beyond reach? Do envy and bitterness toward other males result, or is there more of an admiration? I suspect that men are far less toxically competitive when it comes to appearance, or at least have been. Maybe younger generations are changing. :/

Really liked the S*D*P formula, Duxwing. Also, I meant objectification, as in seeing sexual targets as objects.

 

[Duxwing]

I haven't seen many cases where males act out insecurities due to not meeting fictionalised standards of appearance, sexual attractiveness or power - (...wait... oh yes I have How could I forget some of our favourite people are so ridiculously self-critical? You reminded me, Minuend - thanks.)

Wow, I never knew that. I concede the point in light of this new data.

Given that little jolt, I'm willing to believe it's also a problem for an increasing proportion of males, due to the weight of cultural branding. Media is heavy indeed. But then what do these young men do with their feelings of insecurity? Do they tear down real or fictionalised males that represent a perfection beyond reach? Do envy and bitterness toward other males result, or is there more of an admiration? I suspect that men are far less toxically competitive when it comes to appearance, or at least have been. Maybe younger generations are changing. :/

I don't see as much nastiness anymore. Fights are rare, and boys wear pink all the time.

Really liked the S*D*P formula, Duxwing. Also, I meant objectification, as in seeing sexual targets as objects.

Awww, thanks! If we're talking about sexual objectification, then multiply the base objectification value by the observer's desire to have sexual intercourse with the observed person and you'll determine how much they objectify them sexually.

-Duxwing

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Edit: @Inappropriate Behavior Her little chicken arms would get her about as far as her underfed thighs. However, I know one rock climber specifically who has small arms but is one strong girl. She's toned to the centimeters. She has genetically large thighs for her frame that look slightly out of character but she is very strong without looking strong. It's weird and kind of unusual certainly.

@Cavallier
@loveofreason

It's my understanding that climbing relies more on tendon and ligament strength than muscle strength. Especially in the upper body. Extensor tendons on the back of the hand for grip would be of utmost importance with legs (muscles here) being the primary means of propulsion.

Of course that doesn't mean the muscles don't develop as well. Increasing tendon and muscle strength generally go hand in hand. There are techniques that can focus more on tendons and sinews.

Also, you can build smaller tighter muscles rather than big bulging ones through diet and exercise techniques that cut back on protien intake. There is still definition. At least that's as well as I understand it.

However our little Lara Croft picture above looks more like a supermodel that some computer programmer has fantacized to be some kick ass explorer rather than something that would pass out from malnutrition midway through level 2.

 

[Cavallier]

Insecurity is a powerful thing. Indeed, why do women compare their beauty to that found in the products of others' imaginations? I rarely, if ever, see boys complaining that they aren't as strong as Superman or as smart as Tony Stark, but by your description, girls see Lara Croft and think "I wish I had GG cup breasts". The difference seems absurd: surely, if girls compare themselves to fantastic characters, then boys, as fellow humans, would, too.

Yet, to our knowledge, they don't.

Oh but they do compare themselves. As Minuend and LoR point out. Yet, I think that as there is a cultural trend (in western society at least)to not be very vocal and to not show weakness men are much less likely to voice it.

I should clarify that I think women are the source of other women's discontent about their own looks. I think that men compare themselves to other men and are thus the source of their own discontent as well. Someone mentioned that the new Lara Croft is like the female version of Nathen Drake. Now there's a guy that I know many men would love to be like. Intelligent, good looking, muscular, head full of hair, so on and so forth.

I think the difference comes in where insecure women will jelously berate fictional characters for their volumptuousness as much as they berate each other in real life for it. Men I don't see doing this so much. Why? Perhaps, like I mentioned above, it has to do with a trend towards stoicism as apposed to social connection?

I'm willing to believe it's also a problem for an increasing proportion of males, due to the weight of cultural branding. Media is heavy indeed. But then what do these young men do with their feelings of insecurity? Do they tear down real or fictionalised males that represent a perfection beyond reach? Do envy and bitterness toward other males result, or is there more of an admiration? I suspect that men are far less toxically competitive when it comes to appearance, or at least have been. Maybe younger generations are changing. :/

I see an increasing trend to internalize to the point of mental neurosis the sense of inadequacy media images of perfect people give us. Given the various displays of sexual competition in other species though (birds for example) I think it's interesting that we don't see more competative neurosis based on beauty in men. Although, that could be due to what we precieve as important in a male mate. Beauty is not necessarily required though powerfullness and general badassness is. I might also not be giving enough weight to the pressure men feel to be physically fit.

I'm a bit confused: What does "very sexual" "ridiculous" and "hard to believe" mean in this sentence?

I was in a hurry. I should have been more descriptive. By "very sexual" I had meant fictional women who are grotesquely out of proportion to reality. Huge breasts and the like as we had been discussing.

 

[Duxwing]

Oh but they do compare themselves. As Minuend and LoR point out. Yet, I think that as there is a cultural trend (in western society at least)to not be very vocal and to not show weakness men are much less likely to voice it.

*poke* Uh... Cavalier... I agreed with that men do so in my last post. But not showing it would also be classic male foolishness, so I agree with that, too.

I should clarify that I think women are the source of other women's discontent about their own looks. I think that men compare themselves to other men and are thus the source of their own discontent as well. Someone mentioned that the new Lara Croft is like the female version of Nick Drake. Now there's a guy that I know many men would love to be like. Intelligent, good looking, muscular, head full of hair, so on and so forth.

I have hair and a brain, but few muscles, yet I know that he works harder than I'm willing to in order to achieve said results; ergo, I can't compare myself to him. Indeed, I can't compare myself to anyone. We're just different. And that goes for women, too. I feel an aphorism coming on:

The eyes of others, however shining, make poor mirrors.

I think the difference comes in where insecure women will jelously berate fictional characters for their volumptuousness as much as they berate each other in real life for it. Men I don't see doing this so much. Why? Perhaps, like I mentioned above, it has to do with a trend towards stoicism as apposed to social connection?

Such a point is by definition inartuable: one cannot tell the stoic from the unaffected.

I see an increasing trend to internalize to the point of mental neurosis the sense of inadequacy media images of perfect people give us. Given the various displays of sexual competition in other species though (birds for example) I think it's interesting that we don't see more competative neurosis based on beauty in men. Although, that could be due to what we precieve as important in a male mate. Beauty is not necessarily required though powerfullness and general badassness is. I might also not be giving enough weight to the pressure men feel to be physically fit.

The boys whom I've known tend to compliment each others' appearances with a playful squeeze or slap.

I was in a hurry. I should have been more descriptive. By "very sexual" I had meant fictional women who are grotesquely out of proportion to reality. Huge breasts and the like as we had been discussing.

Oh, in that case, I am one of those men provided that such a woman is out of context. For example, in porn, such things are normal, but in Tomb Raider, they are a jarring eyesore that induces unpleasant dissonance due to the game's focus on action rather than sex, much like finding a classical tragedy hiding in a children's show.

-Duxwing

 

[Cavallier]

Such a point is by definition inarguable: one cannot tell the stoic from the unaffected.

Sure, but not everyone who pretends stoicism is good at it. We can not speak in absolutes here. Also, it is important to take into consideration that I may not know every person I discuss video games with well enough to intuit emotional significance to their varied displays of stoicism or insecurity. I only know the men that I know. I do not know all men and I am attempting to appreciate that the men I know may not be a standard sampling of the general male populace.

The boys whom I've known tend to compliment each others' appearances with a playful squeeze or slap.

This for example is entirely outside of my experience. The men I know do not insult each other but they do not "playfully squeeze or slap" each other. We have different experiences.

It is difficult to have a discussion of this sort and not lean heavily on experiential data. Yet, experiential data is philosophically muddy. It is impossible to differentiate between the experience as it happened and personal interpretation.

*poke* Uh... Cavalier... I agreed with that men do so in my last post. But not showing it would also be classic male foolishness, so I agree with that, too.

Indeed, but this thread isn't just about you Dux. I might have quoted you but as a public discussion space my comments were not necessarily to be directed entirely towards you. I was more adding my agreement with LoR and Mini in response to what you had said than asserting that you were incorrect or some such.

 

[Duxwing]

Sure, but not everyone who pretends stoicism is good at it. We can not speak in absolutes here. Also, it is important to take into consideration that I may not know every person I discuss video games with well enough to intuit emotional significance to their varied displays of stoicism or insecurity. I only know the men that I know. I do not know all men and I am attempting to appreciate that the men I know may not be a standard sampling of the general male populace.

Right, so we're left toothless. Is arguing our points, if not in absolutes, therefore, even possible?



This for example is entirely outside of my experience. The men I know do not insult each other but they do not "playfully squeeze or slap" each other. We have different experiences.

It is difficult to have a discussion of this sort and not lean heavily on experiential data. Yet, experiential data is philosophically muddy. It is impossible to differentiate between the experience as it happened and personal interpretation.

Indeed, we must use science to answer empirical questions, for its design prevents these all-too-human biases.



Indeed, but this thread isn't just about you Dux. I might have quoted you but as a public discussion space my comments were not necessarily to be directed entirely towards you. I was more adding my agreement with LoR and Mini in response to what you had said than asserting that you were incorrect or some such.

But would a reasonable person not assume that they are being addressed when their words are quoted without mention of using them as an example of a classic error? I understand what you mean now, but for future reference, please do make clear what you intend when quoting someone.

-Duxwing

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I normally laugh at guys who work out in the gym for four hours a day to put on 75 pounds worth of muscle.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

If one has ever spent much time in a place like IMVU or Second Life, one realizes that given the choice women seem to almost universally choose unrealistic sexualized form and clothing.

I'm inclined to believe most of these unrealistic sexualized characters were created by males.

Insecurity is a powerful thing. Indeed, why do women compare their beauty to that found in the products of others' imaginations? I rarely, if ever, see boys complaining that they aren't as strong as Superman or as smart as Tony Stark, but by your description, girls see Lara Croft and think "I wish I had GG cup breasts". The difference seems absurd: surely, if girls compare themselves to fantastic characters, then boys, as fellow humans, would, too.
Yet, to our knowledge, they don't.

Wanting to be like Superman or Tony Stark is fantasy though - it's literally impossible. Being ashamed of a flat chest or small breasts is more of a real concern.

Other women also contribute to female insecurity over body sizes, which I don't understand at all; a curvy figure is more attractive to me than trying to be too skinny to where there is no body proportion. Even though many men have expressed their appreciation for women with meat on their bones(e.g. nice thighs, legs, booty etc), females are still affected by the ridicule from other women, and influence of social media.

 

[Duxwing]

Wanting to be like Superman or Tony Stark is fantasy though - it's literally impossible. Being ashamed of a flat chest or small breasts is more of a real concern.

Other women also contribute to female insecurity over body sizes, which I don't understand at all; a curvy figure is more attractive to me than trying to be too skinny to where there is no body proportion. Even though many men have expressed their appreciation for women with meat on their bones(e.g. nice thighs, legs, booty etc), females are still affected by the ridicule from other women, and influence of social media.

So is wanting to be like Lara Croft, but apparently girls compare themselves to her. Nevertheless, I can understand that flat-chested women might see themselves as unattractive, but, as one might expect, a fetish exists for almost every set of proportions. Ergo, large breasts, small breasts, no matter what one has, somebody will be turned on by them. Unfortunately, that somebody may not be the one whom one intends to date or marry.

Skinny people upset my stomach. To me, they appear not slender, but gaunt: mere shadows of human beings that have not yet adapted to the land of the living. I see the ideal feminine and masculine forms as quite accurately described by figure drawing handbooks; however, such a preference is ultimately a result of my years of figure drawing. But I digress. I wonder why women treat each other so cruelly. Perhaps they seek to overcompensate for their own insecurities?

-Duxwing

 

[Polaris]

Yes, some women treat each other cruelly. And likewise, some men treat each other cruelly, if perhaps for other reasons. I have seen this culture prevalent here in Australia, where there seems to be a certain pressure to be "manly", more so in country-cultures than in the city. Even the women here encourage men to be "real men", it is ridiculous.

We have the choice to buy into it or not. I choose not to get too hung up in what other people tell me or think.

Also, that new Lara Croft girl....skinny?

I don't find her unrealistic at all, there are women out there who actually look like that....deal with it.

And good-looking men, likewise.....deal with it.

Personally I'm attracted to intelligence.

Yes, a man may be beautiful and a feast for the eyes, but if he opens his mouth and turns out to be a bimbo....the attraction will vanish mysteriously.

 

[Duxwing]

Yes, some women treat each other cruelly. And likewise, some men treat each other cruelly, if perhaps for other reasons.

Indeed, we should be precise in our indictment.

I have seen this culture prevalent here in Australia, where there seems to be a certain pressure to be "manly", more so in country-cultures than in the city. Even the women here encourage men to be "real men", it is ridiculous.

I hope that my laughing at this subject with you isn't offensive... BWAHAHA! I can just imagine them now: "Be a real bloke, mate!" "I can run like a kangaroo and have a dong like a didgeridoo!". You know what I'd say to people like that? Didgeridon't.

We have the choice to buy into it or not. I choose not to get too hung up in what other people tell me or think.

Agreed.

Also, that new Lara Croft girl....skinny?

I don't find her unrealistic at all, there are women out there who actually look like that....deal with it.

And good-looking men, likewise.....deal with it.

I'm sure that you deal with good-looking men very well. I kid, I kid.

Personally I'm attracted to intelligence.

Likewise, provided that other facets of her are not so unpleasant as to make interaction worthless.

Yes, a man may be beautiful and a feast for the eyes, but if he opens his mouth and turns out to be a bimbo....the attraction will vanish mysteriously.

If only smart people wore badges, then we could tell at a glance.

-Duxwing

 

[Polaris]

I hope that my laughing at this subject with you isn't offensive... BWAHAHA! I can just imagine them now: "Be a real bloke, mate!" "I can run like a kangaroo and have a dong like a didgeridoo!". You know what I'd say to people like that? Didgeridon't.

Spoiler

....you....goofball. How refreshing...

I'm sure that you deal with good-looking men very well. I kid, I kid.

Uhm....they have their...function as well.

If only smart people wore badges, then we could tell at a glance.

-Duxwing

Except, it would appear stupid to be wearing such a badge....

 

[Felan]

I'm inclined to believe most of these unrealistic sexualized characters were created by males.

Your inclination would be wrong. But I won't deny there is a lot of men that play female avatars, many (or most) of which are unrealistically sexualized.

 

[Minuend]

This for example is entirely outside of my experience. The men I know do not insult each other but they do not "playfully squeeze or slap" each other. We have different experiences.

Personal experiences. My dad has been working in two different male-only environments and he has told stories of hostile behaviour and a kind of "all to themselves" mentality. He quit the one job because he felt more or less bullied by one or two of his co-workers. The job he quit had males age between like 30-50, methinks. The other work has a bit older average. A lot of gossiping in that place.

So yeah, I often hear how people think females are worse to each other and create more drama, but just as many subjective experiences from another person says otherwise.

I work in a lady-dominated place now, there are two women who create a bad atmosphere. One of them has been working there for years, and even though she drained everyone of energy, she was never excluded or mistreated by the rest of the workers. Everyone have had and still has a "that's just how she is and we can't stop treating her equally"- mentality. Women mostly 50+.

I guess that's why I have never experienced this competitive behaviour among women you guys speak of; I either hang with nerds or women above 50.

Skinny people upset my stomach. To me, they appear not slender, but gaunt: mere shadows of human beings that have not yet adapted to the land of the living. I see the ideal feminine and masculine forms as quite accurately described by figure drawing handbooks; however, such a preference is ultimately a result of my years of figure drawing. But I digress. I wonder why women treat each other so cruelly. Perhaps they seek to overcompensate for their own insecurities?

-Duxwing

Some people are just skinny without trying. Some are even insulted and having it being used against them. Being automatically judgemental of them is unfair.

 

[loveofreason]

I wonder if Australian culture in general is particularly marked for the degree of envy and insecurity that plays out between women. We generally despise anyone (male or female) that excels at anything other than sport. (Flippant overgeneralisation provided to emphasize sheer wrong-headedness of it all.)

 

[Duxwing]

Personal experiences. My dad has been working in two different male-only environments and he has told stories of hostile behaviour and a kind of "all to themselves" mentality. He quit the one job because he felt more or less bullied by one or two of his co-workers. The job he quit had males age between like 30-50, methinks. The other work has a bit older average. A lot of gossiping in that place.

So yeah, I often hear how people think females are worse to each other and create more drama, but just as many subjective experiences from another person says otherwise.

Wow. Most informative!

I work in a lady-dominated place now, there are two women who create a bad atmosphere. One of them has been working there for years, and even though she drained everyone of energy, she was never excluded or mistreated by the rest of the workers. Everyone have had and still has a "that's just how she is and we can't stop treating her equally"- mentality. Women mostly 50+.

Are you saying that they are right to do so, or wrong?

I guess that's why I have never experienced this competitive behaviour among women you guys speak of; I either hang with nerds or women above 50.

Perhaps with age comes wisdom.

Some people are just skinny without trying. Some are even insulted and having it being used against them. Being automatically judgemental of them is unfair.

Allow me to rephrase: I worry that those who are so gaunt that I could wrap my hand around their ankle have an eating disorder; admittedly, waxing poetic about it didn't help.

-Duxwing

 

[Duxwing]

Spoiler

....you....goofball. How refreshing...

Aww, thanks!

Uhm....they have their...function as well.

Heeheehee.

Except, it would appear stupid to be wearing such a badge....

Indeed. We have a paradox!

-Duxwing

 

[crippli]

Allow me to rephrase: I worry that those who are so gaunt that I could wrap my hand around their ankle have an eating disorder

What would that be in cm? I can wrap my wrist with +one cm to spare, On the ankle I'm one cm short. But if you have longer fingers then I do, then you could be able. I don't think one cm less on my ankle would make me 'gaunt'. BMI is in the middle of normal. So I'd say no need to worry, at least in my case, if you could wrap it around, as I see as likely if you have longer then average fingers.

 

[Duxwing]

What would that be in cm? I can wrap my wrist with +one cm to spare, On the ankle I'm one cm short. But if you have longer fingers then I do, then you could be able. I don't think one cm less on my ankle would make me 'gaunt'. BMI is in the middle of normal. So I'd say no need to worry, at least in my case, if you could wrap it around, as I see as likely if you have longer then average fingers.

Let's say a circumference of <7cm.

-Duxwing

 

[crippli]

Let's say a circumference of <7cm.

-Duxwing

You would wrap your hands around my ankles easily then. Sorry for upsetting your stomach.

 

[Duxwing]

You would wrap your hands around my ankles easily then. Sorry for upsetting your stomach.

No big deal. It's not your fault. It's just that seeing that makes me think "Oh great, they're starving themselves to death". I ought to stop assuming that.

-Duxwing

 

[InvisibleJim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzDTmAsIjYI

 

[crippli]

No big deal. It's not your fault. It's just that seeing that makes me think "Oh great, they're starving themselves to death". I ought to stop assuming that.

Yes, perhaps. I think I eat well, sometimes quite much, and sometimes too long in between. I once won an pizza eating competition. There was huge both women and men there. But I ate the whole pizza about twice as fast as nr.2. That was fun. I don't think any of them thought I would stand a chance. I had barely eaten in two days though, so really hungry. But then it was my stomach that hurt, I suspect it stretched too much. Still not sure how I did it, some mental shutdown of physical signals.



On the Lara Croft issue-I think the issue would become more clear if women started to fantasize and sexualized pink soft super men. Men would get annoyed. Especially macho men. Some would be like that, but most wouldn't. I guess one would have to say to the bear men, well. Deal with it.

What I think is most mysterious is what makes something attractive, why are the superheroes as they are, and not the opposite. And I thought the picture of Lara was cool. If I had seen a bloody creature like that, with such ice cold eyes, it would for sure go a shiver through my spine.

 

[Duxwing]

Yes, perhaps. I think I eat well, sometimes quite much, and sometimes too long in between. I once won an pizza eating competition. There was huge both women and men there. But I ate the whole pizza about twice as fast as nr.2. That was fun. I don't think any of them thought I would stand a chance. I had barely eaten in two days though, so really hungry. But then it was my stomach that hurt, I suspect it stretched too much. Still not sure how I did it, some mental shutdown of physical signals.

This, as TV Tropes puts it, is a Crowning Moment of Awesome.

On the Lara Croft issue-I think the issue would become more clear if women started to fantasize and sexualized pink soft super men. Men would get annoyed. Especially macho men. Some would be like that, but most wouldn't. I guess one would have to say to the bear men, well. Deal with it.

Wow. Point made! I never thought about it that way.

What I think is most mysterious is what makes something attractive, why are the superheroes as they are, and not the opposite. And I thought the picture of Lara was cool. If I had seen a bloody creature like that, with such ice cold eyes, it would for sure go a shiver through my spine.

Agreed on both points.

-Duxwing

 

[Hadoblado]

I'm not sure if anyone's covered this yet, as I am dismally late to the thread and CBF reading it all.

While men are rewarded from an evolutionary perspective for sleeping around, creating multitudes of fatherless offspring, women are comparatively punished by becoming a single mother. This is why women are far more choosy, as if they sleep with a man that is unlikely to stick around then she is investing the next two decades of her life to the lone care of a child.

Women who give in to sexual desire rather than carefully selecting a suitable mate are throwing away the selective fitness of their child (a fatherless child is less likely to eventually propagate than one with both parents). This is why women care more if their husband has real feelings for someone else, while men tend to care more if their wife has slept with someone else. The woman is attempting to secure a lifelong relationship, while the man is only attempting to ensure that he is not wasting time raising someone else's child.

Following this reasoning, both men and other women are rewarded by denouncing a woman's sexual promiscuity. Women reduce the competition, while men need to avoid fathering someone else's children. Men who cheat only damage the family unit if they choose to follow through and raise the misbegotten fruit of their loins.

 

[loveofreason]

That's a point. In which case it's fair to consider how the recent decades of birth control have influenced culture and psychology. If they have at all? Are you suggesting that evolutionary aspects to reproductive behaviour (and social attitude) have remained unchanged?

What purpose does despising exaggeration of fertility signals (big bust, small waist, fat reserves on hips/buttocks, lustrous hair) serve? Also... hidden ovulation means the female has a kind of social advantage in disguising paternity. If you weren't sure which of a brood of rugrats was yours (assuming you were screwing whomever you had the chance to, and she likewise), then aren't you beholden to treat all children with the same degree of care? And likewise support all women of the tribe? That's an argument for the social cohesiveness of promiscuity. Share the love

 

[Hadoblado]

From an evolutionary perspective, birth control has done little to change treatment of women.

From a social perspective, it doesn't seem to have improved public opinion at all. Perhaps it's even resulted in greater objectification? While men are hard-wired to sew the seed, they also have very strong social repercussions for having a baby traced back to them. Without that looming consequence, men are out in force to get ends wet.

I think the despising of overt sexual capacity is mainly propagated by the lady competition. All it takes is one implication of a nasty STI to send all the men back to Ms. Secondbest.

I think taking on a child that is not necessarily yours is an act of good character, but this does not accurately represent what happens in most situations. The evolutionary prerogative of the man is to father as many children as possible without being tied down by any one female. Children he has outside of a relationship represent possible legacy with a one time cost, while children he cares for represent a greater chance of perpetuating his genetic legacy, but with massive opportunity cost.