Why I'm Doing Poorly in School - Maybe

[Saucy]

I've academically fallen apart this year. I am in my junior year of highschool at a competitive school. Below are my speculations as to why this has occurred. I don't really know why I'm posting this. Maybe so I can get someone to tell me if they've had a similar experience, or maybe so someone call tell me my reasoning is fundamentally flawed. What do I do from here? A solution implies the existence of a problem, and a problem implies there's something wrong, but I don't see anything wrong...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hesitate to call this a problem because I do not see anything inherently wrong with it. Society sees this as wrong, and so they would call it a problem, but I can call it only a situation.


I would guess that Drew [My friend] and I possess equal raw intelligence, though we have chosen to cultivate and use this intelligence in opposite manners. The question is: why is Drew such a good student [near top of the class] when I am such a terrible student? I think at the core of this is my introversion coupled with my vehement opposition to authority. After a long school day and two way commute I am exhausted. I wish to retreat into my mind and pursue my own interests. But school makes this impossible. I am given an inordinate amount of homework to complete. This is essentially an invasion of my mind, my temple. I am being told (forcefully) by other people what to think about, what to spend my time on, what to make a part of my life. This is regrettable but workable when it does not encroach on my personal time, but it grossly violates the temple of my mind when homework kicks in. It threatens to consume me, to take over my life. I feel like my identity will succumb to it – that I will become just another indoctrinated, common fool. Procrastination is a desperate attempt to cling onto my unique self, to not let it be forcefully divested from me by the external world. It does not help that I also see the curriculum as arbitrary bullshit, with my pursuits being at least as objectively worthwhile as the curriculum, but definitely subjectively more, as my pursuits mean something to me. It helps my formation as a person unlike the curriculum. To do something I must believe in its worth or find intrinsic interest in it. I find neither in school. It’s actually absurd. School has no real power – it has power because people give it power. To think that I’ll let it control me and throw things into my mind – it’s silly! Why are we giving it power? The whole system is corrupt. This is the nature of the situation.


But how do I reconcile this with the fact that not all introverts do poorly in school? Perhaps I have a special type of introversion. Or perhaps introversion alone is not sufficient – it must be entwined with deep analytical thinking applied to one’s own life habitually. I do not think is very prevalent. But is it possible I am wrong – that school actually has worth? Maybe, but it’s difficult to see how from my point of view.



But let’s talk about the merits of this hypothesis. It explains why this never a problem until late Sophomore year / early Junior year: there was not a lot of homework. I could easily coast by and get 93s while doing minimal homework. There was never sustained torture – in many ways, school was like a day job. But late Sophomore year, when the foreshadowing started, I began to spend more time on school work. Then Junior year, when it was hell every night, things fell apart. When the temple of my mind was defiled nightly, I lost it. Indeed, this also ties in nicely to my problem of not having a hobby. School almost killed me – if it was not for my predisposition to thought, it probably would have. To expound on the hobby problem, From the end of Sophomore year, when I stopped being an exercise freak, to the present, I have not had a hobby. Time just passes doing things, like browsing the internet. School replaced my hobbies. But how do other people have hobbies and school? I guess they do not need as much thinking time…



My hypothesis on Drew centers around two fair assumptions: he is extroverted and he finds some sort of worth in the curriculum or school itself. I think Drew’s extroversion is axiomatic. To generalize the implications of extroversion in regards to school work, the extravert is quite happy to spend his time on external activities, even if he is told by someone else to do them (this makes little difference, I presume). His energy is focused outwards. School work is very “out”. But also, Drew does not question authority like I do. He sees school, somehow, as worthwhile, and is willing to make sacrifices when times get rough to do well in school. It is his extroversion coupled with his ability to find school meaningful that makes him a successful student. I wonder: how does he find school meaningful? It’s probably dismissive of me to say that it’s solely his Super Ego (though I do believe this plays a part). As arrogant as it sounds of me, I think it’s safe to say most people do not think as much as I do. I deconstruct reality to my axioms, then rigorously question those. I am very good at dissociating myself from an idea and viewing things impartially. I believe I am mostly unique in this regard among my peers. I will have to ask him. I do not understand.

-But why can't I change?
Although I may be flawed, I must assess the world in some way. I can do that only with my mind. I see school as meaningless, so to change to see it as meaningful (or become extroverted) would be to deceive myself. I cannot deceive myself.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allow me to clarify one thing. My main internal conflict is: do I actualize my full potential in school or do I pass with a B~ average and pursue my academic interests independently? I will probably go to college in both scenarios, but my answer influences what college I go to and what major I pick (easily employable or PhD, etc.). Essentially, it strongly impacts my future.

 

[Sigma Octantis]

typical INTP on the rebel stage.


look... its not about being an introvert on an extrovert.


youre an INTP, you should know by now that INTPs are rather wishy-washy with no general direction and wants to "sample everything" because of the attitude to "want to know it all" to make the best decision.


i can actually relate to you.

when i was still in school, i was doing really well, top of the class academically and athletically, everyone had extremely high expectations of me cause im the one that "can do it all."

on senior years, i started screwing up to the point that i even dropped out. I hated school, I hated people, I hated everything in there and i've had this mentality that "why is the school so significant when there are other methods of learning as well?"



so you know what i did? I dropped out of school, started trying out everything that i've wanted to study and do.

i took a TAFE course for media and advertising and a course for illustration, i liked it because i had the freedom, i can do it when i want to, how i want to and where i want to do it.

but you know what i realized as i continue on with my courses?


there is no "freedom" because even though i felt like i can do what ever i damn well please in regards to my works.

i still had to follow my clients restrictions and demands. so my "art works" never really meant anything. its as if, theyre paying me to realize their idea for them. so tecnically, it wasnt my idea that was on it, it was my labour and tools but not the idea.


i didnt felt any proud for doing it, so i quitted it and now i wanna do psychology.




you're still in HS, its the time where you can make mistakes in career choices and life.

everything is a learning experience, just keep that in mind.

look in the bright side of things, if you screw up, ask your self...
"what do i have to do and how do i get there?"



"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest." - Confucius.


unfortunately, i took the third path... but now that i've had experience, i learn by reflection.

 

[DetachedRetina]

Son, if you spent half the time doing your homework that you spent typing that post you'd be more successful like Drew.

 

[kora]

Huh, that's funny, same here. School seems to me to be increasingly about learning to pass an exam rather than gaining knowledge. I think this year the curiculum was 85% exam technique and 15% actual learning about stuff. What a waste of my time trying to impress a society I don't give a fuck about. Im praying university won't be like this and I will get some satisfaction out of it. If not, I'm dropping out and becoming an artist or a hobo or something. (not that i equate the two as the same thing)

 

[kora]

Ironically, it's 11:30 pm and I'm meant to be studying for a history exam which is tomorrow morning. Needless to say I have hardly opened a book. Hooray for INTP forum haha

 

[EditorOne]

Oddly enough, despite advancing senility, porous bones and everything else, I can distinctly remember how tough junior year in high school was. Tons of homework, including French, my personal nightmare because I couldn't pronounce the words or hear the spoken French, and junior year was when we started seriously getting into having to make speeches and converse in French in class. Nightmare.

The real problem was that I was finally tired of learning, especially when it involved pointlessness. For various papers, I recall, there was a three-stage process involving research, listing the research, making an outline, writing out a bunch of 3x5 cards, and then finally writing the paper. Only for me it was research, go to sleep, wake up a few days later with the idea for the paper and the outline and most of the words already in my head, so "showing the proof," if you will, was redundant. But each phase had to be turned in. And people told me to just stick it out.

Obviously if I can remember it something like 45 years later, it was beyond annoying. My solution was to do the work, seething inside, and then go on rampages.

Did you ever see the movie "Josie Wales?" It's set during the American Civil War. There's one part where Chief Dan George, portraying Chief Lone Watie, is telling Clint Eastwood about the trip he and a bunch of other chiefs made to visit "the great white father" in Washington. The President shook their hands and told them "Endeavor to persevere." Very obscure.

"We thought about it for a long time, "Endeavor to persevere," Lone Watie says. "And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union."

Yeah, me too. I don't advise it. Sounds like you're kind of going through the same thing, and I don't think it's limited to introverts or even INTPs, it is more like a mismatch between your personal development and what the system of education is requiring of you. It may be temporary. Just watch out for the dark side, if the frustration is really getting to you it's a signal that the emotional reaction to the frustration could also be strong. And we all know emotion isn't our strong suit.

 

[Guess]

I think you reduced too much the issue to extroversion/introversion.
In my opinion the homework workload issue you are having is first a issue of sensor/intuitive. Think of this: how you'd expect a sensor to know you have learned something? By your homework and test grades. Actually, your homework is needed so that people can know you are even trying to learn.
Both J/P axis and E/I axis add to that , and INTP is on the side of the axis where we struggle to comply with the educational system (quite much ESJ).

You can not see it now, but school is very important and valuable. You just have to use it to learn something, not to get exhausted. Even if you see the curriculum as random, give it a chance. If your homework is a pain, try to get exactly the some topic and learn it on your way (wikipedia, khan academy, books, whatever). If you try to learn things instead of just getting good grades, one day you will see how much further can take you.

Rebeling completely against the system won't take you to happier life. In some years you may be frustrated for not having grades good enough to take you to a good university. Complying 100% as many people do won't make you happy either, especially you being INTP. I'd suggest a different approach. Try to make maybe 80% of what is asked for you. It is quite usually enough. Maybe you won't be the top of class (like Drew), but you may get close (as you use to be). The 20% relief you have will help not getting exhausted and have time to you mind /hobby ( you should definitely start to exercise again).

 

[pernoctator]

School seems to me to be increasingly about learning to pass an exam rather than gaining knowledge.

I experienced firsthand how true this is.

I skipped half of high school. But it was not because I was "gifted" (whatever that means); no, the primary catalyst that led to this was bullying -- they decided I would be "safer", I suppose, in the more mature crowd of higher-graders. To formalize it, they had me write some tests (they were probably 10th grade final exams), so I spent a week or so looking through my sister's textbooks (since she's conveniently 2 years older and was in the appropriate grade), then I proceeded to pass most of the tests.

And just like that, I was finished with those years. It felt empty. I found that the people in my new classes weren't any wiser or more knowledgeable. They were just a little older, going through the same old motions as before. I saw nothing to justify the division of grades. It was a depressing (literally) experience.

Even though I obediently followed these people to the next testing ritual, successfully being reassigned to a new set of classes, and the next, and so on, I slowly became a worse and worse student... not because I was out of my league, but because being face to face with the undeniable reality of the pointlessness of it all, I couldn't help but be apathetic.

I suppose I should feel lucky that I spent less-than-average time going through school, but I think it has just made me that much more bitter about the time that was wasted.

You can not see it now, but school is very important and valuable. You just have to use it to learn something, not to get exhausted. Even if you see the curriculum as random, give it a chance. If your homework is a pain, try to get exactly the some topic and learn it on your way (wikipedia, khan academy, books, whatever).

Then is it school and homework that is valuable, or is it [wikipedia, khan academy, books, whatever]? The trouble is that school and homework interfere with this. The format of school is not conducive to learning; it's a hindrance.

I think people who genuinely believe in that mantra, "school is important, you'll see when you're older", are just fooling themselves into assuming that the knowledge and skills they take for granted actually came from school. Everything in school is "learned" temporarily and quickly discarded and overwritten. Afterwards, you "relearn" things for real by necessity. You don't learn anything that you don't personally invest in. Learning is not a communal activity.

If you try to learn things instead of just getting good grades, one day you will see how much further can take you.

I think Saucy's problem comes from the very fact that he tries to learn things instead of just getting good grades.

 

[Czech Yes or No]

Just call me maybe.

 

[7even]

Buy a bunch of cocaine, sit your fucking ass down by your table and work, work, work!

 

[Guess]

Then is it school and homework that is valuable, or is it [wikipedia, khan academy, books, whatever]? The trouble is that school and homework interfere with this. The format of school is not conducive to learning; it's a hindrance.

I think people who genuinely believe in that mantra, "school is important, you'll see when you're older", are just fooling themselves into assuming that the knowledge and skills they take for granted actually came from school. Everything in school is "learned" temporarily and quickly discarded and overwritten. Afterwards, you "relearn" things for real by necessity. You don't learn anything that you don't personally invest in. Learning is not a communal activity.

I think there are 2 values out there: knowledge and proof of knowledge. Unfortunately you don't even get the chance to show the first if you don't have the latter. Often, proof of knowledge is more valued than knowledge itself (again unfortunately). Example, I am certain one can find enough material over the internet to become a, e.g., a computer scientist. But, without a diplomma things get hard. It's simply easier for people to believe that you have been attending a course for 4 years, than that you have been self-studying for 4 years. So I was mostly trying to provide practical advice.

Hmm. Another point, don't forget learning can be a communal activity for other people (maybe not most INTP)

By the way, different, countries, schools and universities have very different educational systems. I once had a course at the university, and the professor studied in US, bringing "innovative evalution methods". He made tests in the beginning of every class, about the subject that was yet to be shown in the class, meaning that he forced us to read the book prior to the class. Then he repeated the book again at the class. If only he would go to more advanced material! In the end I was always choosing between do the test by instict (not staudying) or attending the class. Cause I could not possibly do the same thing twice (book + class carbon copy of the book) with so many knowledge to be gained out there. I got my grades down, but I can't possibly regret that decision.

 

[pernoctator]

I think there are 2 values out there: knowledge and proof of knowledge. Unfortunately you don't even get the chance to show the first if you don't have the latter. Often, proof of knowledge is more valued than knowledge itself (again unfortunately).

This part that I quoted, at face value, is true. Proof of knowledge is valuable. But of course you go on to conclude that the proof we need comes in the form of diplomas. And I strongly believe that diplomas are not our only option for proving knowledge. In fact, they aren't even a good way to do so.

It's funny that you mention computer science. This is my field, and I have just recently secured a position relevant to my skills. I don't have a computer science diploma, yet I've never failed to impress anyone who actually knows something about the field and takes the time to have a technical conversation with me or look at my work.

On the other hand, if a company is so careless as to delegate interviewing to HR drones who know nothing about the position they're hiring for, then yes I am likely to be rejected on the basis of not having a diploma or not complying to a set of buzzwords they have memorized. However, I would prefer not to be working for those types anyway, as I'd likely be surrounded by incompetent coworkers toting diplomas and little else.

Consider this testimony: http://imranontech.com/2007/01/24/using-fizzbuzz-to-find-developers-who-grok-coding/

Most good programmers should be able to write out on paper a program which does this in a under a couple of minutes.

Want to know something scary ? – the majority of comp sci graduates can’t. I’ve also seen self-proclaimed senior programmers take more than 10-15 minutes to write a solution.

The above experience is common. A diploma doesn't prove anything, and a good employer knows this. Aside from the aforementioned HR drones, I have never even been asked about it.

Would you rather hire someone who spent the last 4 years in school, or someone who spent the last 4 years learning by choice because it's their passion? The answer can't be "both" because, as Saucy laments, school kills free time and makes pursuing one's own interests practically impossible. It's a poor substitute for actual experience and individual learning.

Hmm. Another point, don't forget learning can be a communal activity for other people (maybe not most INTP)

I'll only agree to this up to a certain point. Some people might be more motivated to learn by joining a group of other learners, but learning itself always happens internally. Following a group through a curriculum is a fundamentally flawed method of education.

By the way, different, countries, schools and universities have very different educational systems. I once had a course at the university, and the professor studied in US, bringing "innovative evalution methods". He made tests in the beginning of every class, about the subject that was yet to be shown in the class, meaning that he forced us to read the book prior to the class. Then he repeated the book again at the class. If only he would go to more advanced material! In the end I was always choosing between do the test by instict (not staudying) or attending the class. Cause I could not possibly do the same thing twice (book + class carbon copy of the book) with so many knowledge to be gained out there. I got my grades down, but I can't possibly regret that decision.

So, the innovative method was basically to have you learn on your own, effectively making the actual class a waste of time. Maybe this was the professor's own way of rebelling against a system that he too sees as pointless.

 

[EditorOne]

"A diploma doesn't prove anything, and a good employer knows this"

Good employers are few and far between. Additionally, existence of a diploma may not prove anything, but the absence of a diploma is usually associated with characteristics not affiliated with employability. And if you want to make a point in a job interview that you are superior to the system of education and therefore dispensed with it, you just labeled "not a team player" and "arrogant" on your head. Sure, go ahead, say you're just being dispassionate about yourself. Now you're "incredibly arrogant" .

I'm not arguing with anything said. I'm just pointing out consequences that need to be considered in any informed decision. Lack of basic equipment like diplomas will reduce opportunities in some fields. That didn't stop me from having "if they want the diploma they aren't worth working for" as my mantra, but it is certainly true that the absence of a college diploma robbed me of some job choices along the way.

 

[pernoctator]

Well maybe I'm naively optimistic, but I think good employers are not so rare that it's worth giving up on them to invest an arm, leg, and 4 years into appeasing the bad ones. It did take a long time for me to get my foot in the door, but still less time than it would have taken to get a computer science degree -- and I'm debt-free. It's not as if university graduates are finding decent jobs right out of school, either.

I guess I can't really comment on "the absence of a diploma", since I do have a 1-year college diploma, though it's not in computer science and I have no degree or certifications. Would employers whom I've impressed have rejected me if I didn't have that? Maybe, but somehow I doubt it.

As for bringing it up in an interview, well, you don't need to. If the "arrogant" claim of not needing the education system is true, it will go without saying by the fact that you actually have the knowledge. If someone asks about schooling, just brush it off and get them to focus on the big picture. "No I didn't do this in school, but I have this many years of self education and here is what I know, here is what I can do and have done." If you're telling the truth and can articulate your ability, they'll know it.

 

[Panopticon]

I was an awful student. Reason? I couldnt give a fuck about anything.

If it wasnt about dinosaurs, astronomy, war history, or science(writing class was fun sometimes too), I was most likely not paying attention.

 

[EditorOne]

How apt. On the day we were talking about diplomas, "Dilbert" was about the same topic:

There are times I've sworn Scott Adams was sitting on my shoulder observing my workplace and getting information for his strips. Evil human resources people, clueless bosses, lazy coworkers: The strip could easily be a preparatory manual for young people thinking of entering the world of corporate work.

Much better off starting your own thing, even if it's a silly lawn cutting business. (I bet it was an INTP who came up with the idea of artificial turf, out of an all-consuming desire to free the world from the tedium of mowing lawns. )

 

[Sanctum]

I am a Sophomore and I am having the same problem its actually been going on for quite a while, its been so bad for me that my GPA has decreased significantly and every time I try to buckle down and focus my P ness gets in the way, In high school its all about work ethic their goal is not to build knowledge but work ethic and unfortunately that's something we don't have when it comes to matters that don't interest us.My Ap Euro grade was 90 on test, 89 on quizzes, 98 on classwork, and a 10 on homework and now look i have a D in the class. Recently I showed my mom my progress report (which i usually don't) and in her disappointment i guess i found motivation to do good in school. I guess for INTP's we need a solid reason to do well in school and take it seriously. But the fact that we are so future oriented goals such as college and universities wont cut it because we'll procrastinate until we get close to those milestones so we have to find more short term goals that constantly engage us and make us try our best. So i guess my short term goal now is to make my mom proud

 

[EditorOne]

Short-term goals is definitely a valid answer. It was how I wrote books: One chapter at a time, not one book at a time. A book is too vast to contemplate. A chapter is a few hours work. This works with other things, too.

 

[Hadoblado]

This is less an individual problem for the OP than a serious conflict of interests between our innate INTP disposition towards independence of though, and a world largely constructed with the other types in mind. School is good for the majority of people, but if one is already an autodidact then school serves merely to restrict intellectual liberty.
I personally find value in this control, as I am very lazy and would not pursue study independent of formal academia. I love gaming and drinking too much
But for those who do not have these massive time sinks, there is no motivation gained, just freedom lost.

"Procrastination is a desperate attempt to cling onto my unique self, to not let it be forcefully divested from me by the external world." - OP

Probably a bit far though :P

 

[travelnjones]

"A diploma doesn't prove anything, and a good employer knows this"

Good employers are few and far between. Additionally, existence of a diploma may not prove anything, but the absence of a diploma is usually associated with characteristics not affiliated with employability. And if you want to make a point in a job interview that you are superior to the system of education and therefore dispensed with it, you just labeled "not a team player" and "arrogant" on your head. Sure, go ahead, say you're just being dispassionate about yourself. Now you're "incredibly arrogant" .
.

yep yep. many places you go you are doing the same basic job in your carrier. The difference is conforming to how that employer does things. I think they see the education process as proving you are able to conform to a mode of working.

 

[Fghw]

could not have said it better myself.

I have the same problem. My realization is that the smarter you are, the harder you have to work. My advanced classes are seeming increasingly like classes on how to communicate knowledge to stupid people. If I'm gonna mention a derivative to anyon, they better damn well know how to factor x^2-6x+9.