Hive mind

[Pyropyro]

I was playing a lot of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri sessions lately. One of its best ending is Transcending humanity and uniting with the Planet as an intelligent Hive Mind. The consciousness is collective but individuals may opt to have some time away from the hive or isolate themselves in their own mini-worlds within the vast neural net of the Planet.

Anyways, I think humans can become a hive mind perhaps even in our lifetime. Our tech is growing exponentially and we're trying out collective consciousness for centuries as tribes, countries etc. Perhaps the best initiative so far is the Internet which I believe is a growing semi-sentient hive mind (and porn archive).

I wonder how much research can be done with the power of thousands or millions of brain matter working in unison. Perhaps we can even solve Entropy in the same way our ancestors solved Flight.

Are there any organizations that are presently researching or advocating a hive mind?

What are your thoughts on it? Are you willing to join one?

 

[BigApplePi]

Worthwhile topic. What could happen?

1. No one knows it all.
2a. Each of us has self-interest but we benefit by sharing.
2b. We do not know others' self-interest.
3. Some of us have more power than others.
4. Knowledge and luck count for success.
5. The most knowledgeable may lack power.
6. Publicity is a kind of power but doesn't equate to knowledge.
7. Sharing can plant seeds some of which will grow.
8. If many growths fills the void, some growths will compete with others.
9. How the competition wins out matters to results obtained.
10. The overall environment is beyond our control.

 

[Pyropyro]

Worthwhile topic. What could happen?
.

Who knows?

My theory of a "good" hive mind is that people (or parts) have the right to choose their own trade. If there's a lack of parts willing to fulfill a need (say electricians) then the hive mind will use organic or mechanical drones to fulfill the need. If there's a surplus of talents (say poets) then the less deserving ones will need to go to the neural net to "imagine" their trade. There's a shuffling of the surplus though if the hive sees that the imagined project are better than the ones used in real life.

My problem actually, is that as a hive mind, it would be awkward to reproduce. Perhaps something akin to the lowly algae called Volvox where entire colonies are created before being released in the wild.

1. No one knows it all.
2a. Each of us has self-interest but we benefit by sharing.
2b. We do not know others' self-interest.
3. Some of us have more power than others.
4. Knowledge and luck count for success.
5. The most knowledgeable may lack power.
6. Publicity is a kind of power but doesn't equate to knowledge.
7. Sharing can plant seeds some of which will grow.
8. If many growths fills the void, some growths will compete with others.
9. How the competition wins out matters to results obtained.
10. The overall environment is beyond our control.

We're using crowdsourcing already to fix issues so this might be the way to go. 1-3, 5 and 7 may be solved by a hive.

 

[BigApplePi]

If things would grow via a hive population we might have something. What would stunt growth is if part of the hive gained enough power to stop optimum growth. Power matters enormously. Power is an expression of self-interest. Self-interest might be what an overseer of the hive might want but communication of knowledge of self-interested power that inhibits would have to be facilitated.

"Knowledge is power" - Francis Bacon

 

[Pyropyro]

If things would grow via a hive population we might have something. What would stunt growth is if part of the hive gained enough power to stop optimum growth. Power matters enormously. Power is an expression of self-interest. Self-interest might be what an overseer of the hive might want but communication of knowledge of self-interested power that inhibits would have to be facilitated.

"Knowledge is power" - Francis Bacon

that is indeed tricky... If Information can be shared freely then there won't be a means of accumulating it to amass power through knowledge. Then again, if everybody knows everything about everyone then we also killed individualism.

 

[Duxwing]

How exactly would a hive mind function?

• Would individual minds still exist?
• If so, then how would they interact? If not, then what would replace them?
• Would individuals still have ultimate authority over themselves, or would their will be bound to that of the hive?
• What advantages would a 'true' hive mind have over the Internet, massively parallel supercomputers, or Strong AI? Would it allow the direct transmission of thoughts?

I envision a future wherein each human uploads its mind to a computer that communicates with other computers through fiber optic cables and does such interesting things as solve math and logic problems, explore virtual reality, and play God with the natural one. Computing power would define thought power--the only power in the hive mind--and therefore become a commodity, and search engines that query a central, world database would replace education (which is, in computer terms, a painfully slow download to local storage). Viruses, power outages, and lightning would become existential threats, and great precautions would be needed. Modification of one's own consciousness is the elephant in the room: one could add senses, subtract flaws, and become god-like--or simply someone else entirely! The early days of this hive mind would be fraught with danger, discovery, villainy, and heroism. Mortals would say that their descendants would sing of this time:

Spoiler

Crash and Freeze, Admin!
Perhaps the Net had got enraged:
A desperate fight against the trolls we waged!
Sparks fried the server, though the plugs had shot away,
And everyone online began to pray.

But the admin, master old,
He'd fought DDoS attacks for years untold!
Crash and freeze, Admin! Chasing us about,
He made a coder great of every lout!

Left Behind (Not specifically at Architect):
See the old architect boot up his comp' again
All alone 'midst keyboards and mice.
The wind that blows his hair has turned cold as ice.
Oh he dreams to take the fiber down along its course
To the Internet, but since long ago, he's known not where to go
And thus he sits at his keyboard, alone.

I hope that we will survive.

-Duxwing

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

Are there any organizations that are presently researching or advocating a hive mind?

God help us all, let's hope not.

What are your thoughts on it? Are you willing to join one?

No, it's a dystopian nightmare.



RESISTANCE IS NOT FUTILE.

 

[BigApplePi]

Hive mind in action

Hive mind in action:

Chapter I.
Well I'll bee.
Let's manufacture honey and store it.
I propose hive storage.
Good idea. We need to protect our thing.
Let's use these stingers to discourage damage and theft.
Great idea if you don't mind.

Chapter II.
I bee stung mind you.
Who stung you?
That hive over there.
Let's smash that hive.
No more stings.
No more trouble.

Chapter III.
What's the buzz?
I lost my home.
I lost my sweet stash.
Did you sting?
Yes.
Maybe that wasn't such a good way to bee!

 

[Pyropyro]

How exactly would a hive mind function?

• Would individual minds still exist?
• If so, then how would they interact? If not, then what would replace them?
• Would individuals still have ultimate authority over themselves, or would their will be bound to that of the hive?
• What advantages would a 'true' hive mind have over the Internet, massively parallel supercomputers, or Strong AI? Would it allow the direct transmission of thoughts?

I envision a future wherein each human uploads its mind to a computer that communicates with other computers through fiber optic cables and does such interesting things as solve math and logic problems, explore virtual reality, and play God with the natural one. Computing power would define thought power--the only power in the hive mind--and therefore become a commodity, and search engines that query a central, world database would replace education (which is, in computer terms, a painfully slow download to local storage). Viruses, power outages, and lightning would become existential threats, and great precautions would be needed. Modification of one's own consciousness is the elephant in the room: one could add senses, subtract flaws, and become god-like--or simply someone else entirely! The early days of this hive mind would be fraught with danger, discovery, villainy, and heroism. Mortals would say that their descendants would sing of this time:

Spoiler

Crash and Freeze, Admin!
Perhaps the Net had got enraged:
A desperate fight against the trolls we waged!
Sparks fried the server, though the plugs had shot away,
And everyone online began to pray.

But the admin, master old,
He'd fought DDoS attacks for years untold!
Crash and freeze, Admin! Chasing us about,
He made a coder great of every lout!

Left Behind (Not specifically at Architect):
See the old architect boot up his comp' again
All alone 'midst keyboards and mice.
The wind that blows his hair has turned cold as ice.
Oh he dreams to take the fiber down along its course
To the Internet, but since long ago, he's known not where to go
And thus he sits at his keyboard, alone.

I hope that we will survive.

-Duxwing

• Would individual minds still exist?
  Yes
• If so, then how would they interact? If not, then what would replace them?
  Through thoughts transmitted over an organic or electronic net
• Would individuals still have ultimate authority over themselves, or would their will be bound to that of the hive?
  They can choose to isolate themselves from the hive if they want to (although
  I haven't thought about how though or what laws regulate such separation). They can also isolate themselves within the "imagination" of the hive and make their own worlds there BUT they have to inform the hive of what they developed when they wake up out of it.
• What advantages would a 'true' hive mind have over the Internet, massively parallel supercomputers, or Strong AI? Would it allow the direct transmission of thoughts?
  There would be an even more free means of distributing resources and information. Also empathy would be at an all time high since anyone can literally feel everyone else's pain. Yes, direct transmission of thoughts would be nice. Actually I think we need a facilitator AI to make the transfer more bearable and a complex enough network to house all consciousness. We are not termites after all.
  

I on the other hand view the future net more as an organism rather than an electronic one. Carbon is a bit more abundant compared to the heavier metals so it would be better to base the hive's net if we are to expand to other planets/star systems.

Nice poem BTW

 

[BigApplePi]

How exactly would a hive mind function?

Collectively.

• Would individual minds still exist?

  Most definitely. You gonna kill us all?

• If so, then how would they interact? If not, then what would replace them?

  Carefully. I don't know. They would not be replaced. Components are needed.

• Would individuals still have ultimate authority over themselves, or would their will be bound to that of the hive?

  There would always be a conflict between self-interest and pressures from the hive.

What advantages would a 'true' hive mind have over the Internet, massively parallel supercomputers, or Strong AI? Would it allow the direct transmission of thoughts?

I don't see the difference. They are all the same.

 

[BigApplePi]

God help us all, let's hope not.

Isn't God the ultimate hive mind?

No, it's a dystopian nightmare.

It's a devil of a thing.

RESISTANCE IS NOT FUTILE.

Never give up everything.

 

[Pyropyro]

God help us all, let's hope not.




No, it's a dystopian nightmare.



RESISTANCE IS NOT FUTILE.

Too late... we are already in one

Seriously though, hive minds have a bad rep in literature and pop culture since they speak of the horrors of the loss of individuality and communism. Besides, INTP's really value personal freedom.

 

[Pyropyro]

Isn't God the ultimate hive mind?

*removes Christian hat for the moment* That's an interesting thought. Actually a lot of religions tells us that the soul will merge with the Creator, the Void or the Universe itself upon death. Even the more secular Omega Point and Technological Singularity speaks somewhat like that.

 

[Duxwing]

*puts on his ISTJ hat*

Yes

Might the individual minds be subsumed and enslaved?

Through thoughts transmitted over an organic or electronic net

How do we prevent violence and voyeurism while permitting law enforcement and searches? I suppose that an central controller could control all connections like a telephone operator.

They can choose to isolate themselves from the hive if they want to (although
I haven't thought about how though or what laws regulate such separation). They can also isolate themselves within the "imagination" of the hive and make their own worlds there BUT they have to inform the hive of what they developed when they wake up out of it.

Current police laws could likely be adapted. Why must they tell anyone? What if they did something embarrassing? Who runs this "imagination"?

There would be an even more free means of distributing resources and information. Also empathy would be at an all time high since anyone can literally feel everyone else's pain. Yes, direct transmission of thoughts would be nice. Actually I think we need a facilitator AI to make the transfer more bearable and a complex enough network to house all consciousness. We are not termites after all.

How will the degree of empathy be regulated? What happens if someone deletes his or her own empathy programming? Would we need Thought Police?

I on the other hand view the future net more as an organism rather than an electronic one. Carbon is a bit more abundant compared to the heavier metals so it would be better to base the hive's net if we are to expand to other planets/star systems.

Electronic components are far more resistant to damage by, for example, disease, and age only imperceptibly with time; organic components are essentially long-running chemical reactions that disease and age can easily interrupt.

Nice poem BTW

They're adaptations of sea shanties.

-Duxwing

 

[Pyropyro]

*puts on his ISTJ hat*

*Sweats profusely for no reason* I didn't kill her detective, I swear!

Might the individual minds be subsumed and enslaved?
Yes, in a poorly executed hive mind. Your defenses might only be based on how strong your will is or how much of the net your faction controls


How do we prevent violence and voyeurism while permitting law enforcement and searches? I suppose that an central controller could control all connections like a telephone operator.

Actually haven't thought of that . Yeah, some sort of facilitator AI should handle this.


Current police laws could likely be adapted. Why must they tell anyone? What if they did something embarrassing? Who runs this "imagination"?

I think the laws would be archaic by that time and must be changed to conform with collective thinking. The tell all clause is actually part my answer to BigApplePi's concern on specific personalities amassing considerable information to consolidate their power over the hive. I imagine that the imagination is you being given a cloud-like storage and processing component for your enjoyment.

How will the degree of empathy be regulated? What happens if someone deletes his or her own empathy programming? Would we need Thought Police?

I think once the pain is identified and help was alerted, the empathy controls would be relaxed in the same we take painkillers if we already know that we have back pains and being reminded by the body won't make the pain go away. Yeah, regulations (which the hive voted for in advance) should be in place on what programming should the members of the hive have in place. An AI should check the hive members for not following these regulations.

Electronic components are far more resistant to damage by, for example, disease, and age only imperceptibly with time; organic components are essentially long-running chemical reactions that disease and age can easily interrupt.

That's why my vision is still far into the future when human society is more mature (unless we killed off each other for pointless things again). I do however, see the potential in carbon nanotubes in making organic computers in the future.

They're adaptations of sea shanties.

 

[BigApplePi]

I envision a future wherein each human uploads its mind to a computer that communicates with other computers ... and does such interesting things as ...

Duxwing. I'm having a good deal of trouble with this. One may upload expertise, but that would be fixed. I may be missing the point. Where does the hive mind reside? In the uploaded computer? Minds rely on their sources. The sources themselves react to the "whole" and change their minds. A hive mind may carry out a certain function but if it isn't sensitive to what it relies on, it will die IMO.

I may not be saying this well or may be overlooking what you have in mind, but I conceive of a hive mind as a dynamic interaction of the whole and the parts, never a separation of parts from whole or whole from parts.

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

Isn't God the ultimate hive mind?

(I tend to use god as a stand-in expletive when i'm not sure whether better expletives will cause offense)

Isn't god a one-way hive mind if that's not logically impossible? - he knows all our secrets but we drones are not privy to his great thoughts?

It's a devil of a thing.

There would always be a conflict between self-interest and pressures from the hive.

Then again, if everybody knows everything about everyone then we also killed individualism.

So, like it is now but much worse.

Sacrifice yourselves! Protect the Queen!

BUT they have to inform the hive of what they developed when they wake up out of it.

Why? I find this especially objectionable/disturbing.

Never give up everything.

Won't that be mandatory eventually?

 

[Duxwing]

*Sweats profusely for no reason* I didn't kill her detective, I swear!

Rrrr *scribbles with pencil, cigar half in shadow underneath the slowly swinging, squeaking ceiling light*

Yes, in a poorly executed hive mind. Your defenses might only be based on how strong your will is or how much of the net your faction controls

They would likely be based on who controls the connections between computers (or virtual machines) and programming regulations.

Actually haven't thought of that . Yeah, some sort of facilitator AI should handle this.

And who chooses, creates, and maintains the facilitator AI? (forgive me if my questions sound rhetorical)

I think the laws would be archaic by that time and must be changed to conform with collective thinking.

Collective thinking sounds scary; why not have a network of individual minds capable of directly sharing their thoughts whenever they legally so choose instead? Also, the laws would not necessarily be archaic: homicide is homicide, for example, whether you've killed a brain or wiped a computer.

The tell all clause is actually part my answer to BigApplePi's concern on specific personalities amassing considerable information to consolidate their power over the hive. I imagine that the imagination is you being given a cloud-like storage and processing component for your enjoyment.

Could wikipedia, technical wikis, and existing copyright and information laws could achieve the same result? E.g., doctor-patient confidentiality, no plagiarism, etc.

I think once the pain is identified and help was alerted, the empathy controls would be relaxed in the same we take painkillers if we already know that we have back pains and being reminded by the body won't make the pain go away. Yeah, regulations (which the hive voted for in advance) should be in place on what programming should the members of the hive have in place. An AI should check the hive members for not following these regulations.

Having everyone in the hive mind ache whenever two people broke up or fought would debilitate everyone with excruciating, traumatizing pain within fractions of a second because people would feel pain because other people would feel pain, and other people would feel pain because of that pain and the first pain, and other people would feel pain because of the first and second pain and interactions between those two pains and the sheer amount of others' pain ad infinitum--and that's just the first ten milliseconds of perhaps ten minds' reactions to one fight in a hive mind of billions. Universal empathy sounds nice and cuddly and warm at first blush (to me, too) but its result is horrifying; perhaps localized empathy via simple ignorance of others' thoughts would reduce the cataclysmic, world-spanning heartache resulting from a bad joke to something manageable.

That's why my vision is still far into the future when human society is more mature (unless we killed off each other for pointless things again). I do however, see the potential in carbon nanotubes in making organic computers in the future.

The future might very well be incomprehensible to us.

-Duxwing

 

[Pyropyro]

And who chooses, creates, and maintains the facilitator AI? (forgive me if my questions sound rhetorical)

The Hive and the AI should be checking on one another in my opinion. It's cool. This is just a thought experiment after all.

Could wikipedia, technical wikis, and existing copyright and information laws could achieve the same result? E.g., doctor-patient confidentiality, no plagiarism, etc.

Actually I think we can't use them. It's like protecting yourself from Yourself which is kind of weird.

Collective thinking sounds scary; why not have a network of individual minds capable of directly sharing their thoughts whenever they legally so choose instead? Also, the laws would not necessarily be archaic: homicide is homicide, for example, whether you've killed a brain or wiped a computer.

Actually that would be the next phase from our society. There would be absolutes though but I don't know how they would be able to implement the laws around it. I'm still thinking if humans and sentient AI would should have the same rights.

Perhaps localized empathy via simple ignorance of others' thoughts would reduce the cataclysmic, world-spanning heartache resulting from a bad joke to something manageable.

That's a good idea Duxwing.

The future might very well be incomprehensible to us.

Yes. But it's fun to imagine about it

 

[Pyropyro]

And who chooses, creates, and maintains the facilitator AI? (forgive me if my questions sound rhetorical)

The Hive and the AI should be checking on one another in my opinion. It's cool. This is just a thought experiment after all.

Could wikipedia, technical wikis, and existing copyright and information laws could achieve the same result? E.g., doctor-patient confidentiality, no plagiarism, etc.

Actually I think we can't use them. It's like protecting yourself from Yourself which is kind of weird.

Collective thinking sounds scary; why not have a network of individual minds capable of directly sharing their thoughts whenever they legally so choose instead? Also, the laws would not necessarily be archaic: homicide is homicide, for example, whether you've killed a brain or wiped a computer.

Actually that would be the next phase from our society. There would be absolutes though but I don't know how they would be able to implement the laws around it. I'm still thinking if humans and sentient AI would should have the same rights.

Perhaps localized empathy via simple ignorance of others' thoughts would reduce the cataclysmic, world-spanning heartache resulting from a bad joke to something manageable.

That's a good idea Duxwing.

The future might very well be incomprehensible to us.

Yes. But it's fun to imagine about it