Children are a trap

[Absurdity]

In reality, men don't give a damn about their kids, they never really love them. In fact, I'd say men aren't capable of love; the emotion is completely alien to them. The only emotions they know are desire -- in the form of pure animal lust -- and male rivalry. There used to be a time when, late in life a man would come to feel a certain affection for his spouse -- though not before she'd borne his children, made a home for them, cooked, cleaned and proved herself in the bedroom. That sort of regard meant they enjoyed sleeping in the same bed. It was probably not what the women were looking for, it might even have been a delusion -- but it could be a powerful feeling. Strong enough that even if men still became excited -- though to a decreasing degree -- at getting a little piece of ass on the side from time to time, they literally could not live without their wives. When, out of unhappiness, their wives left them, they hit the bottle and died soon afterwards -- often in a matter of months. Children existed solely to inherit a man's trade, his moral code and his property. This was taken for granted among the aristocracy, but became the norm at every level of society. That's all gone now: I work for someone else, I rent my apartment from someone else, there's nothing for my son to inherit. I have no craft to teach him, I haven't a clue what he might do when he's older. By the time he grows up, the rules I lived by will have no value -- he will live in another universe. If a man accepts the fact that everything must change, then he accepts that life is reduced to nothing more than the sum of his own experience; past and future generations mean nothing to him. That's how we live now. For a man to bring a child into the world now is meaningless. Women are different, because they continue needing to have someone to love -- which is not and has never been true of men. It's bullshit to pretend that men need to fuss over their children, play with them or cuddle them. I know people have been saying it for years, but it's bullshit. After divorce -- once the family unity has broken down -- a man's relationship with his children is nonsensical. Kids are a trap that has closed, they are the enemy -- you have to pay for them all of your life -- and they outlive you.

From The Elementary Particles by Michel Houellebecq

 

[Latte]

Commentary telegram from the eye are sees

<Personnotnamedpersonwhoisanonymized> men are all psychopaths; the feminazis and men's rights activists actually all agree ;P

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Empty shell declamation

 

[Steven Gerrard]

How absurd.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

"In reality, men don't give a damn about their kids, they never really love them."

Oh lawd... This thread is a trap.

So I'll take the bait.

Why does this affection supposedly only appear later in life? Why is it associated with material gain and free labor? What of men who intentionally enter relationships knowing that their partner cannot bear children? What of men who volunteer to do housework or would prefer more "womanly" roles? What of men who adopt as single parents?

Why is it apparently meaningless today when I'd argue it was far more meaningless then? And that men were also far more insecure then...

The author has no concept of social capital or emotive value.

 

[Cognisant]

I think the hardest thing would be the unrelenting responsibility, aside from that I wouldn't mind, I think people who can't deal with children are themselves children and the fundamentals of robotics aren't going to change so I do have a trade I can pass on.

Having impressionable little minions is actually quite appealing.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Having impressionable little minions is actually quite appealing.

Especially the part where you teach them not to be impressionable little minions.

 

[redbaron]

I wonder if the way men feel reading this is equitable to the way women feel every time feminism comes up.

Unsure of Absurdity's intention, but it's a somewhat interesting mental exercise to consider the parallels between the way this author conflates his values to all men, and the way so many males are fond of conflating the values of feminism to all women.

 

[Minuend]

I'm not sure to make of the quote. It's like saying grass don't exist. It's obvious that it does. It's too far fetched to be taken seriously. If you skim his biography, you can kinda tell where it comes from.

 

[Absurdity]

Unsure of Absurdity's intention...

I should have made that more clear in the OP. I suppose for me the passage doesn't resonate because it is true for everyone but that I think it did a good job of describing my own relationship with my father. Elsewhere in the book, Houellebecq talks about fathers and sons becoming rivals -- about fathers feeling threatened by their sons.

Something in what he wrote helped me understand my own relationship with my father better. He's probably an INTP, and has never been emotionally available. He cheated on and then divorced my mom and has mostly shown his modest affection for his offspring through giving money to my brother and I. Once I turned 19 or so the remaining luster on my image of him faded, and I came to see him as just some guy who happened to shack up with my mom. Visiting him now is painfully awkward. He's aging visibly and doesn't give a shit about his health (he smokes, his teeth are rotting) -- he probably won't live to be very old. He doesn't understand my life choices and usually derides my aspirations on the rare occasions where I slip up and confess them.

And yet the worst part is I take after him so much in a variety of ways, large and small. I unconsciously mimic his mannerism and posture, to the point where I sometimes catch my mom staring at me with masked pain because she sees her ex-husband. This wretched inheritance has led me to worry about my own potential capacity as a father -- whether I'll be as mediocre as he has been.

------

Also, to put the quote in perspective: it's a drunken rant by one of the characters who has a shitty dad and is himself a shitty dad.

 

[Helvete]

"When, out of unhappiness, their wives left them, they hit the bottle and died soon afterwards -- often in a matter of months."

I like this bit the best. I mean really? The only reason wives will leave a husband is unhappiness? Since when did you have to be married to have kids? Since when did all men drink? What happens when a wife, or perhaps a girlfriend leave for another reason, death maybe? What happens to the kids afterwards? Do the 'hit the bottle' too and die 'often in a matter of months'?

Honestly some great lol's in this article!

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Something in what he wrote helped me understand my own relationship with my father better. He's probably an INTP, and has never been emotionally available. He cheated on and then divorced my mom and has mostly shown his modest affection for his offspring through giving money to my brother and I.
He doesn't understand my life choices and usually derides my aspirations on the rare occasions where I slip up and confess them.

Interesting I have a similar situation.

And yet the worst part is I take after him so much in a variety of ways, large and small. I unconsciously mimic his mannerism and posture, to the point where I sometimes catch my mom staring at me with masked pain because she sees her ex-husband. This wretched inheritance has led me to worry about my own potential capacity as a father -- whether I'll be as mediocre as he has been.

Yes, my life attitude is quite similar and also the way I am reminded I resemble my father, who in fact, my mother hates.
I wonder if I won't be able to overcome the genes or whatever he might have left me. Unable to create what I wish to be.

In that light, it now seems quite accurate.
If my father was INTP, my mother would be ESTJ.

 

[BigApplePi]

Thank you for clarifying your motives, something I could learn a lesson from. Your OP could be taken two ways.

(1) To oppose and say men are not that way.
(2) To accept the post as a premise and run with it, pondering what can be done.

Edit: I want to underline, not knowing you, that was a brave post.

 

[BigApplePi]

Commentary:

In reality, men don't give a damn about their kids, they never really love them. In fact, I'd say men aren't capable of love; the emotion is completely alien to them. The only emotions they know are desire -- in the form of pure animal lust -- and male rivalry. There used to be a time when, late in life a man would come to feel a certain affection for his spouse -- though not before she'd borne his children, made a home for them, cooked, cleaned and proved herself in the bedroom. That sort of regard meant they enjoyed sleeping in the same bed. It was probably not what the women were looking for, it might even have been a delusion -- but it could be a powerful feeling. Strong enough that even if men still became excited -- though to a decreasing degree -- at getting a little piece of ass on the side from time to time, they literally could not live without their wives. When, out of unhappiness, their wives left them, they hit the bottle and died soon afterwards -- often in a matter of months. Children existed solely to inherit a man's trade, his moral code and his property. This was taken for granted among the aristocracy, but became the norm at every level of society. That's all gone now: I work for someone else, I rent my apartment from someone else, there's nothing for my son to inherit. I have no craft to teach him, I haven't a clue what he might do when he's older. By the time he grows up, the rules I lived by will have no value -- he will live in another universe. If a man accepts the fact that everything must change, then he accepts that life is reduced to nothing more than the sum of his own experience; past and future generations mean nothing to him. That's how we live now. For a man to bring a child into the world now is meaningless. Women are different, because they continue needing to have someone to love -- which is not and has never been true of men. It's bullshit to pretend that men need to fuss over their children, play with them or cuddle them. I know people have been saying it for years, but it's bullshit. After divorce -- once the family unity has broken down -- a man's relationship with his children is nonsensical. Kids are a trap that has closed, they are the enemy -- you have to pay for them all of your life -- and they outlive you.

First thing I'd wonder is what was this guy's father like? In growing up one needs a role model to show the way. Usually for boys that is the father. If the boy hasn't been shown the way or has gone through and overcome troubles, he won't have learned how to love. Love means doing something constructive like playing with the kid, teaching him stuff, showing him possibilities, trying them out with him ... and the like. Same with spouse. If the father doesn't or is unable to do this, he won't get the reward of a fun kid or a loving spouse. Women may specialize in love unconditional, but that kind of love in not enough. There has to be the guy (or like representative) who shows how to build and go through rough spots, and have fun.

Here is a story seemingly unrelated, yet it is: John-John was the son of assassinated President Kennedy. He had to grow up without a father. Apparently he knew how to get love from women. His mother Jacqueline Kennedy Onnasis I'm sure loved him. Yet he died young in a plane crash he was piloting together with two women. If his father had lived, maybe he would have cautioned his son not to be so reckless in flying that plane because he WAS reckless.

 

[Pizzabeak]

Children are a trap in a sense, in some areas they're the result of a lack of responsibility and/or selfishness, amongst other causes stemming from those. I suppose it doesn't help to get mad at someone for having a baby at a young age when they can barely help themselves and then leech off the government blah blah; etc, while said baby could potentially turn out to be the next Hitler. There are some careers or life paths individuals wish to take, but once they have a baby it's all over. They have to stop everything they do and focus on that, which is why it's advisable to follow some plan of least resistance or distraction (and whatever else may come with that) or to just masturbate when the urge to bust a nut is had (not masturbating might actually be a better idea).

Kids aren't property, for bringing them into the world it's the parent's job to raise them well enough so they can survive on their own, or be competent enough. There are some ideas that promote the veracity of the issue, such as the mother raising the child for the first 12 years, keeping the father completely unseen until the child is ready. The child will learn important things from the mother, and when introduced to the father they'll get a well rounded upbringing. But, nowadays you got people runnin' around doing whatever they can, the mom telling the kids that the dad 'wasn't shit', no role models, the parents making selfish-ish decisions without any input from the kids. In some cases there's hardly any actual love, just cash. "Oh, well here's some cash", thinking that's all that's required. Some of them try kinda hard to keep their kid's love after a while, but they keep doing certain things that actually might make them lose what they love most.

 

[kaelum]

I know people who chose to remain childless because of reasons similar to OP's quote. My reason for wanting kids is because in a sense I want to redo my childhood: I was the first born and my parents made many mistakes with me out of not being familiar with parenting (they did a slightly better job with my younger brother). I also identify a lot with my parents' flaws; dad goes through emotional rages, and mom can be heartless.

I'm comfortable with the idea that I might have tendencies learned from my parents, but I also am going to have kids with conviction that if I make a mistake, I'll fix it, I'll adjust and learn and do better. It's hard to break patterns and habits but I know what a tough time I went through and I have an idea of how hard my parents' childhoods were, so I refuse for my children to relive that once perpetual cycle.

Edit: There are women who see children as financial sinkholes also. And there are men and women who see children as a way to shape the future.

But I wouldn't try to convince someone who doesn't want to have a kid---to have a kid, because I'll be afraid of the potential for child abuse/neglect.

Side note:

I wonder if the way men feel reading this is equitable to the way women feel every time feminism comes up.

What's wrong with feminism that isn't wrong with politics, religion, media, etc, in general? There's Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X both seen as leaders in the same American 1960's civil rights movement with different methods and differing beliefs. The same movement can have people who make you proud and people who embarrass you (not to say that either example was an embarrassment to anyone but that there is a range of philosophies represented even in the same movement).

I'm glad that feminist civil rights activists are fighting for me to be seen as someone who can equally contribute to society when I'm busy trying to live my life.

 

[redbaron]

What's wrong with feminism that isn't wrong with politics, religion, media, etc, in general? There's Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X both seen as leaders in the same American 1960's civil rights movement with different methods and differing beliefs. The same movement can have people who make you proud and people who embarrass you (not to say that either example was an embarrassment to anyone but that there is a range of philosophies represented even in the same movement).

What?

I think you've misinterpreted my post.

 

[kaelum]

"I wonder if the way men feel reading this is equitable to the way women feel every time feminism comes up."

How should this be interpreted? Everytime that feminism comes up, how is it do women feel?

 

[redbaron]

I'm referring to the way in which women who speak out against gender inequality are quick to be labelled militant and feminist.

Imagine if a woman had posted this thread instead of Absurdity, with the author's identity omitted. There'd be an absolute shitstorm about feminist this, feminist that.

My comment is about drawing parallels between the way the author of the article projects his own ideas into a sweeping generalization about all men, much the same way many other men project their experiences with a select few extreme feminists onto all women.

Everytime that feminism comes up, how is it do women feel?

You tell me. If instead of clarifying my point above, I was to dismiss what you say on the basis that you're just being another typical defensive feminist, how would you feel?

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Wow, this is caraaaizy.

 

[ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε]

Yeah, they are a trap. I already decided I that I definitely won't be having any of them a year ago. I could use all that time and money on things that make me happy instead.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

sleeping, forum spamming, reading some philosophies, religions, Qm, psychology stuff from internet, meditation.

wrong thread?

 

[Goku]

this (original) post doesn't bother me at all

 

[The Void]

wrong thread?

 

[The Void]

Yes someone in the sociopath forum was saying that the one will be saved if the one's kid dies.
Why did they marry in the first place lol?
Slave to lusts. Silly undeveloped sociopaths entraping themselves in family lives
Humans are too quick to generalize.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Yes someone in the sociopath forum was saying that the one will be saved if the one's kid dies.
Why did they marry in the first place lol?
Slave to lusts. Silly undeveloped sociopaths entraping themselves in family lives
Humans are too quick to generalize.

Yeah, we are not human and we totally don't generalise, right?

 

[The Void]

Yeah, we are not human and we totally don't generalise, right?

Humans are too quick to generalize -> a quick generalization by me -> notice the irnoy?

Spoiler

btw I am not human. I am an ET from planet Xars.

Spoiler

Yes, I am human. May be? I don't know.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Humans are too quick to generalize -> a quick generalization by me -> notice the irnoy?

Spoiler

btw I am not human. I am an ET from planet Xars.

Spoiler

Yes, I am human. May be? I don't know.

I don't like how you explain you were ironic for the second time.
I got it the first time and this time too.

I did generalise that we are not human, and I did generalise that we do not generalise.

I somehow found you would understand, but here

Don't worry you may be from Xars, why not?

 

[Reluctantly]

I think it would be cool to adopt a kid, if I had the time and wealth to raise them well.

Though I don't know about the overall picture of the OP,
But growing up with my father, I got the impression that my mother had more fondness for her children, whereas my father seemed more concerned with getting us out of the house so he wouldn't have to pay for us anymore. My mother was also quite a bit more willing to listen to what we thought would be best for us, whereas my father already had his mind made up for us. They both loved us, but in different ways and I found the way my father loved me to be pretty harmful because it was much more rigid, outlined, and expected that I return that love by being grateful. Though my older brother seems to be pretty found of him, but he's actually very much like him. They are even both ESTJs. Interestingly enough, I seem to have the same problems in understanding with my brother that I had with my father. We both have to strain ourselves to get along.

 

[Brontosaurie]

"men aren't capable of love; the emotion is completely alien to them. The only emotions they know are desire -- in the form of pure animal lust -- and male rivalry."

kinda true, but too categorical.

 

[alludes2profundity4lyfe]

This seems a case of dressing in all black to fit in with the darkness.

 

[Latte]

This seems a case of dressing in all black to fit in with the darkness.

and anime fuck yeaaaa

reflexive edit to add substance to post yields a situation devoid of inspiration which creates a mild inclination to suspect no chance of dissemination of thought with self origination.

Good thread though. Much of import described and deliberated upon.

This is all bronto's fault.

Things generally tend to be bronto's fault.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

"men aren't capable of love; the emotion is completely alien to them. The only emotions they know are desire -- in the form of pure animal lust -- and male rivalry."

kinda true, but too categorical.

This is depressing, I was influenced by this post in a way

 

[alysa]

It's an interesting excerpt that has started this conversation. It's odd that I find some parallels to my father in this post. I think my father loves me and my sister, and I care for him, but I sadly don't love my father anymore.

My father decided to stop working about six months after I was born. Once in a while an old employer of his would call him up and ask him to do an odd job for some fast cash, but he never stayed with it. He told my mother that she had to go back to school and get a degree. He didn't let my mother chose the degree. So while my mother took care of us, she also worked full-time and went to school full-time. My father did the bare minimum of caring for my sister and I, and he only wanted to talk about things that interested him. I couldn't talk with him because it always became a lecture about politics and quickly I was brainwashed.

I was going to be the son that my father always wanted and inherit his way of thinking since he had nothing else to pass down. He killed my dreams of becoming an anthropologist, an explosive specialist, and a politician (not in the order, but in order of what I wanted most). He tried to get me onto a military track like he was before being gassed with fertilizer in the Gulf War.

Now my parents are divorced. My mother was unhappy with the way he treated her and her children, and though my father hasn't fallen on the bottle, he doesn't take care of himself. The most I interact with my father is a quick phone call or if I have a question about the car he bought for me.

Stereotypes have a starting point, and even if the op is bullshit to read and feels cringe-worthy, there may be a bit of truth. Some people fit in the mold, others do not. Sometimes a woman will fill that mold instead of a man. While the wiring of the brain follows a certain blueprint, each brain has differing parts that are influenced by genetics, environment, experience, and growth.