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SkyWalker
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  • I dunno, my moments of greatest pleasure are generally when I've come to an awesome new insight about things - that feeling when everything comes together. It's quite ecstatic.

    However, is that my motivation? Perhaps not.
    You mean you don't get any pleasure out of Ti use? It is essentially a means of avoiding pain? In what way does it help you to avoid pain?
    lol You're asking me to prove a negative. That's fallacious.

    Besides, you do not cease to exist until you die from your suffering. The act of suffering is suffering. And if you are suffering for a cause that is your's, when you die, you will have become a martyr for your own cause.

    The difference is as follows:
    Extraverted sacrifice is from feeling responsible for the situational dynamics because of your arbitrary position in that environment.

    Introverted sacrifice is from being devoted to your personal decisions, emotions or beliefs.
    I get what you mean, but I don't really think it divides up with I/E in that way. Also, do you see people as being either pain avoiders vs. pleasure seekers, or do you see people having a pain avoidance (I) and pleasure seeking (E) side?

    I think people use their dominant function to pursue pleasure, and their auxiliary to avoid pain.

    Do you think, on the contrary, that people use their extraverted function to pursue pleasure, and their introverted function to avoid pain?
    But that doesnt make Fi selfish. Fi's inner-self could for example say "sacrifice yourself to help others", that isn't considered selfish (even though the inner-self wants it.)

    (Te/Ti cannot say to themselves "sacrifice yourself")

    This is where I deviate. Introverted functions are Self-ish, and act to please the Self regardless of what is externally involved in the process. They are about Self-assessment. In addition, you attribute sacrifice to "Feeling". While I agree that on a psychological level, emotions motivate us to action, you have even stated yourself that Te is "using society as a base for [its] answers". Ti and Te are just as justified in being able to sacrifice, either for the Self or for external collectivity, for whatever purposes each respective aspect relates to.
    i agree that the motivations are reversed, but i think that if you flip around the inner world and outer world then they end up the same. as introverts, we pursue internal pleasures whereas extraverts prefer to avoid internal pain
    i believe that anyone who pursues pleasure also avoids pain, anyone who avoids pain also pursues pleasure. so an introvert avoids pain from external tasks, but pursues pleasure in internal tasks, and switched for an extravert

    in the world of introversion, the extraverts become the prey :D
    Your theory about pain and pleasure's relation to type that wrote ages ago is really cool. You should make this into a more complete theory, together with as many examples as you can think of.
    Even without understanding or referring to Jung's theories, the flaw in this reasoning is that you assume all F types are obligated to help other people and that T types are incapable of relation.

    This is obviously not true. And even in theory, it is flawed in the premise, in that you can only help if others are around.
    Fi is very selfish, as is Ti. Even though they may come to judgments that favor the interests of others, it all comes back to satisfying the Self in doing what the Self understands and wants.
    You hold one-dimensional views of T and F. Are you forgetting e/i? Explain, please.

    Also, "T" along with "S" in ST implies mechanical physicality.
    EyeSeeCold> i wouldn't link those with types.

    mind&body = form/formed (matter, objects, entities)
    soul&spirit = formless (psychotic categorical blending)

    In my concept, the mind and soul are half-physical and half-spiritual. The respective physical mediums are the brain and spinal cord & energy imbued in cells/organ systems


    sometimes they say mind=T and body=F, since T you can do alone (in your mind without using your body) while for F you need to communicate to others (using your body)

    A physical body of matter is not required to exhibit "Feeling". Hence: ST

    many rationalities exist for categorization of these things and everybody does it differently, best is not to bother with these words at all and use better ones.

    True, but I'm not trying to objectify anything. It's intentionally subjective.
    There are two parts to the book. The first part is by Jung and is entirely hand-written. I don't know the language it's in but his writing is calligraphic. That's the part that is not translated.
    Yes, the damn spam catcher bot is monitoring me for too many links ffs. -____-

    Thanks for the link I'll check it out.

    The message is still moderated btw, it's a link to some selected images from The Red Book by Jung.
    I had access to some Kabbalah works, it was a webpage, I don't remember the url though. There was a lot of interesting stuff on there.
    Hey, I answered a couple of your posts in my Models album. The other, I have to figure out a way to explain.
    I have to head home from work now, but I think I wouldn't call the Fi stand primitive as much as just "raw" in some ways -- direct, unnuanced. It comes from some internal source rather than being woven together out of established social fabric.
    Yes, I think your 1&2 are basically correct, although I haven't vetted all the nuances in my head yet. But yes, I think we could say that.

    And yes, to your qualifications of terminology, yada yada yada... I understand the intricacies of type discussion notation too (Fe is a function, but it's a perspective, and it can also be shorthand for an Fe-primary and even just a person with Fe in their JCF type read or just describing an Fe approach, etc.)

    I think it manifests different in Fe-primaries, where it colors everything; the further away from primary it gets, it just adjusts the primary and other function makeup of the person.
    I have't really thought much about the expression of the shadow functions in a person. I'm just looking directly at how Fe and Fi would behave, but perhaps it can be interpreted in terms of the use of unconscious/primitive functions.

    I'm not necessarily focusing on dominant users of those functions, though what I'm saying would mostly apply to F types rather than T's, since the feeling is a natural response, and a more integral aspect of the person. I think how I'm viewing it should be compatible with how you're viewing it.
    There does appear to be a logical contradiction there, but there isn't really - it's just that the same terms can be applied to either process depending on the situation. You have to look at them deeper to see why that is, I think.

    I'm not too sure how to put it into strictly logical terms. Hopefully my response shed some light on the matter.
    You need to look a lot more into what Fe and Fi are, methinks. In fact, you have a lot of it backwards (at least, if my understanding is correct).

    I think that, generally speaking, it's Fe's that are probably going to react passive-aggressively, whereas an Fi will take more of an active, personal stand. Fe's are likely to react in a way based on the emotions of others, and when taking a stand it is usually on behalf of another. When they strike it will probably be your actions have hurt someone else rather than your actions have hurt me (which an Fi would do). Fi's will also do this sometimes, but the difference is that they will be doing it because, by hurting someone important to them you have indirectly hurt them, and so it is still a personal thing.

    Both try to avoid conflict wherever possible I think, being sensitive to the pain of others. Fe's are more direct conflict resolvers, Fi's will be more passive and try to keep the mood light.
    Yeah, I have one INFP friend in particular who takes a lot of pleasure in completing tasks... but earlier in life he was pretty "fuzzy" and non-committal.

    I know ISFJs (who supposedly gear off Fe) who are also very much enjoying task completion as well, though, so that's probably why I wouldn't necessarily equate it to Te... either that, or there's something weird going on vs the theory in regards to task-closure-oriented ISFJs.
    Hey Luke, did you by any chance see that picture posted here with 4 sets of eyes looking in diagonal directions?
    I'm fully aware of monetary inflation, I became financially independent a few years ago by making a few precisely placed investments on the direction of interest rates. You give me the impression of having a shallower understanding, forgive if thats incorrect but like I say I'm not looking for a conversation on it as 99% of the population has it dead wrong.
    I'm not going to get into another monetarist discussion :) I'll just say that income has been in decline for a decade in the developed world, and yes I'll believe the inflation meme and relationship to house prices, as long as I see wage inflation occurring concurrently.
    I chose you because I can be the
    Luke in your life.


    I don't have problems with making
    decisions, it would just be nice not
    to have to as long as it was healthy
    and not something detrimental.
    I should change my name to Luke
    and we can be conjoined twins!
    You can be the executive decision
    maker of our body!
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