Am I really an INTP?

[Lindsay1]

Can you be an INTP without being a nonconformist, liberal rebel?

I've spent a lot of time browsing through INTP forums, trying to see how well I match with the other INTPs out there. I fit many parts of the description very well: I am extremely quiet, unaware of my surrounding environment most of the time, really want things to make logical sense, and have a horrible tendency to procrastinate and be late for appointments. Not that the procrastination is really a problem in my opinion - I've found I often do my best work at 1 AM the day the essay is due. I usually score as high Ti and Ne on cognitive function tests (not as much when I'm in a doubtful mood and am trying to disprove my self-assessment). I (over)analyze everything (including myself), have often been called an "absentminded professor", am good with math and science, would much rather learn a physics concept or how to solve a math problem rather than memorize a bunch of useless names, feel somewhat detached and emotionless a lot of the time, and have a million and one interests. All in all, sounds pretty INTP, right?

I relate very well to most descriptions of INTP cognitive functions and thought processes. But I start wondering if maybe I'm wrong about my type when I see all the forum posts about being almost aggressively rebellious and nonconformist and hating everything conservative and/or religious. I don't think I'm much of a nonconformist. The truth is that I go back and forth a lot between giving in to peer pressure and actually doing what I believe in and like, and a lot of the time I pretend to agree with the majority even if I really don't. I always avoid telling people about my religion and politics, even when they're being discussed. I hate being in the spotlight, so I often just go along with everyone else. I may question things people say in my head a lot, but I rarely say anything out loud or act as if I disagree. And when I question things, it's always in a quietly-wondering-if-there's-another-side-to-the-issue way, rather than an I-don't-believe-in-your-authority-and-will-frankly-tell-you-so way. I ask questions about a lot of things quietly in my head, but without taking action. If I am a nonconformist thinker, I'm the type of nonconformist that doesn't really want to be nonconformist in action. I'm far more likely to give in to the crowd than I am to bravely stand out as an individual. I have a friend who is always doing things simply for the sake of being nonconformist, even when she doesn't actually like the nonconformist thing or think that it makes more sense. She cares more about being different from the majority than she does about what she actually likes and dislikes. If that's nonconformist, then I'm definitely more conformist. I think that, ideally, you should do what you believe is right and like what you want to like, whether that's nonconformist or conformist, not constantly try to be rebellious and reject things just because they're mainstream. That seems just as bad as liking things simply because they're mainstream - maybe worse, because you can can come across as contrary. (Sadly, I don't follow my own philosophy in real life because I'm too much of an embarrassed coward to actually admit it when I disagree with people.)

And then there's the "does not respect authority" thing. I don't really feel that way. I follow the rules, even when they don't make sense. But that doesn't mean I'm not grumbling about in my head. It's just that most of the time, rebelling against authority doesn't really do anything except get you in trouble, even when it's something really small. If I complain out loud about not being allowed to write on the back side of the paper for my school essay, people just roll their eyes and tell me I'm nitpicking. If I were to write on the back anyway, just to make a point, it would only result in me getting a worse grade and possibly the teacher getting a grudge against me. I'm definitely not rebellious. It's just not worth it. My idea of being rebellious is chewing gum in class. (And of course I'm the one who gets caught the one day I do it, never mind that everyone else in the class does it all the time). I'm a total goody two shoes. I'm not brave enough to be anything else.

And I'm not your standard aethiestic, hate-Christianity-with-a-passion INTP. I'm actually a more-or-less-devout Catholic. But there's the funny thing - I don't really see that particular aspect of my beliefs as being conformist or blindly-rule-following at all. I live in a very liberal area where many people seem to have no problem publicly bashing Catholics, Mormons, and conservatives. Telling people that I am Catholic or pro-life takes a lot of courage in the face of so much self-righteous opposition. The default, normal, conformist way to be around here is not religious, pro-life, and fixated on tradition, but rather nonreligious, pro-choice, and pro-change without ever stopping to consider whether the suggested change is truly the best and most logical change... And yet, the people who are those things and have never considered any other point of view still believe that they are nonconformists who think for themselves. It's funny - I often find that many of the people who complain all the time about how conservatives are so prejudiced against muslims, gay people, and atheists are actually really prejudiced themselves - only, in their case, it's against the Catholics, the Mormons, the pro-lifers, and conservatives in general. Just the other day someone I know casually stated, "I kind of hate Mormons" and everyone else in the room (except for me and the one Mormon) just laughed and smiled. If they had said that about Muslims, they would have probably gotten a detention. I hate the double standard.

If I question things, it's not usually in the direction most INTPs question things. I've been raised in a mostly liberal environment, which means I end up having to question whether everyone's liberal beliefs are right a lot more than whether everyone's conservative, supposedly "traditional" beliefs are right. Everyone complains about tradition, but I think the main tradition around here is to hate things just because they're labelled "traditional" without actually stopping to see if there might be more to it than that.

I have a lot of nonconformist beliefs that seem very traditional to most people, I guess. Am I traditional? I don't know. I don't think most of my "traditional" opinions derive from actually caring about tradition. I'm not Catholic just because my parents are, it actually makes the most sense to me. I'm not pro-life just because the church says so, but rather because I think that a person is a person no matter how small and the innocent embryo's right to live is far more important than someone's right to not have an inconvenient baby. Defining human life as beginning with conception, rather than at some vague point around three months into pregnancy or when the baby changes locations from the mother's womb to the outside world, makes the most sense to me. I think nothing is more important than life - you need to have the right to live before you can have any other kinds of rights - and that includes human life that's still microscopic in size, in my opinion. I'm certain I would still be pro-life even if I stopped being Catholic. Is this opinion really all tradition and religion?

So I guess what I'm saying is that I question things in my head but don't act as if I think any differently and I have some opinions labelled "traditional" but for non-tradition reasons. What do you think? Does being kind of conformist, religious, and not at all rebellious mean I'm probably not an INTP? Am I truly conformist or just unconfident? Am I really just an ISTJ or ISFJ in denial? (I actually typed myself as ISTJ the first time I took the MBTI, but later realized that I had interpreted many words and phrases to mean different things than the test makers meant.) Am I a real INTP in your opinion?

Thanks to anyone who bothered to read this over-long post!

 

[Black Rose]

Most people don't know enough about functions to type themselves. I don't think you are INTP. INTP's are more concerned with learning axioms and don't take into consideration socializing (weak Fe). ISXJ sounds right. Consider your interests, are they because of how your psychology dictates them? Its about how you live/view life that will tell you your type.

 

[redbaron]

INTP's are more concerned with learning axioms and don't take into consideration socializing (weak Fe).

Sigh.

 

[Goku]

You're just less aggressive. The posts you see are from the more aggressive INTPs. The passive ones don't make as many posts, thus the passive voice is drowned out by the more dominant aggressive voice.

The passive tends to follow the norm even though she doesn't agree. The aggressive will tend to speak up or go against the norm. Yet, the fact remains that both disagree with the norm-- that's the important feature which correlates with INTP. It's because the INTP sees a better way.

The people who make the posts you reference probably abide by all the rules just as you do... Yet they are so repressed from real life that they come and rage their real opinions on the internet.

It takes more balls to say "fuck you" to a cop than to say "fuck the police" on the internet.

For example, INTPs in real life probably aren't raising their hands in class or participating in class discussions, yet you see a lively Internet forum here.

The Ti usually kicks in, in real life, to evaluate the consequences of the crazy ideas. Usually the consequences aren't worth it.

Conformity can be environmentally brainwashed into you by parents. I think this is what's occurred in your case: a natural unconformist born into a conforming religious household.

In my estimation, yes, your natural preference seems to tend towards INTP.

And yes you could be INTP without the extreme rebellious behaviors;

I get the sense that fear/respect of authority has been deeply ingrained into your mind. Or at least fear of the social consequences.

I take this position because social anxiety inhibited much of my natural INTP personality in the past. Thus, I can relate to holding INTP thoughts, yet acting very un-INTP in real life.

 

[Black Rose]

Sigh.

yes I know its a stereotype
I don't construct long explanation in this area well yet

 

[WALKYRIA]

almost aggressively rebellious and nonconformist and hating everything conservative and/or religious. I don't think I'm much of a nonconformist.

And then there's the "does not respect authority" thing. I don't really feel that way. I follow the rules, even when they don't make sense. But that doesn't mean I'm not grumbling about in my head. It's just that most of the time, rebelling against authority doesn't really do anything except get you in trouble, even when it's something really small.

I have a lot of nonconformist beliefs that seem very traditional to most people, I guess. Am I traditional? I don't know. I don't think most of my "traditional" opinions derive from actually caring about tradition. I'm not Catholic just because my parents are, it actually makes the most sense to me.

MMMhhht, If i had to go by gut feeling and by probability:
1° What strikes me as pretty certain is that you are more of a feeler than a thinker.
2° Many intuitive people can be traditionalists and religious also, so INFJ is probable.( You should look if you are a rather deep, mysterious person... or rather a shallow, dumb person(= ISFJ).
3° INFJ are often mistyped as INTPs .
4° You should also think about INTP close cousin, INFP.




Basically, in real life I keep all the hard and rebellious opinions for myself, except if I want to test someone's" friendship/ relationship" potential.
It's obvious that INTPs are too smart to express dangerous opinions or be openly arrogant or rebellious in the real world( because of its consequences !). Rather than that, they'll express rebellious behavior and life choices or passive aggressive .( such as being a loner, not being social, not participating in class, not care about grades, not care about religion, not care about mainstream thinking, not care about family, ...etc).

I think we tend to be rebellious by withdrawal and by hiding.... than by being openly confrontational. We are the quiet rebels. We chose to not choose, to not act, to not participate.


About religion see there are a few simple reasons I don't really subscribe to religion, personally... Don't know about other INTPS... But I think it's a pretty simple and logical reason:
-I'm not a follower.( not a sheep !)
- Religion separates people more than it unites them and is a major cause of discord in the world; since it's a local thing more than a universal thing. Peace and human reunification can only be ideally attained if we all withdrew from religious beliefs and embraced humanistic and world wisdom.
- Religion imposes me a " belief". Which is incompatible with my way of thinking. I analyze and judge. I just don't accept things as easily.(' actually no body does, except kids... that is why if you teach a kid a certain-- let's say wrong--reality, the kid will grow with the biased reality ingrained in him... that's why smart kids tend to be atheists, because they don't believe their teachers and parents easily. They doubt.
-Religion is not about the single truth, it's about a certain possible truth. Which is discordant with my research of ultimate truth.
- Religion is really local: depending on where you were born. You will adopt the local belifes in >>95 % of the times.... Nobody really cares about the truth, the light. People seem to only care about being part of a group, a family,..Etc We INTP are individualists and are not defined by our environment.(main reaosn why we tend to be atheists!)
-... etc and so many reasons.





Although INTPs tend to be atheists, it seems that certain INTP end up becoming christians... So you can still be an INTP.



About tradition. I hate tradition in the same way that I despise religion. I have plenty of reasons to do so... Main reason being that I am for free will and free thinking... I consider that being human beings that we are ( and not just mere animals who go by gut feeling and 5 senses ) , we should all be able to follow reason and not preconceived rules. But I guess everybody is not able to do so...

If you still doubt, you should ask yourself this question: Am I the ultimate truth seeker? because INTP live-- and I guess would die-- for the truth... which implies being a sceptic, a rebel,..etc( It all comes from that single ideal goal !)

IN conclusion, you must certainly be a feeler dude !

 

[Void]

I would say I am an INTP, and I also share your... problem(?). My default way of living is to make as few waves in the water as possible, unless someone truly wants your honest opinion. However, if that is not the case, I do try and bend the rules as far as I can to still do what I think is better without breaking the rules. As you said, breaking the rules more often backfires than it progresses things. And the spotlight isn't really my place either. All I ever do is just nay-saying instead of following. Don't go with the current, don't go against it. Passive-aggressive nonconformity. Undercover rebels. Wolf in sheep's clothes. That sorta thing.

 

[Base groove]

MMMhhht, If i had to go by gut feeling and by probability:
1° What strikes me as pretty certain is that you are more of a feeler than a thinker.
2° Many intuitive people can be traditionalists and religious also, so INFJ is probable.( You should look if you are a rather deep, mysterious person... or rather a shallow, dumb person(= ISFJ).
3° INFJ are often mistyped as INTPs .
4° You should also think about INTP close cousin, INFP.

... ... ...

IN conclusion, you must certainly be a feeler dude !

^certainly this person must be a total Mormon, ... Er... Moron!

Actually, not quite, as most of what I deleted from the quote are comments I am in agreement with, but I'm going to focus on truthiness, logic, and reason here, moron.

Anyway, Lindsay1, I do believe you are INTP. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will give it a shot, briefly...

You constantly refer back to rule following/violations. We can take a Kiersey temperament approach, where NT types are known to ignore ascribed authority altogether and "make their own rules", and SJ types (your alternative choice being ISFJ - who are NOT shallow and dumb) being described as traditional and rule-following for the sake of honouring a collective consciousness (laws, rules, regulations, community, norms), not really because it's logical per se, but because it's the "way" to live.

Like Goku said, in practise, we don't actually see this a whole lot (especially at your age), probably because Ti has real difficulty with applying itself to the environment of the INTP, and they can almost seem powerless to get their thoughts out there, and what's more, is this type can be very reluctant to upset other people due to a fear of what might happen (how they will react)...say, by becoming emotional/not listening to what you say/not letting you finish/not accepting your reasoning..... This can cause much internal conflict because Ti and Fe oppose each other very strongly and can not properly reconcile/unify their judgements.

Now, when you talk about why you are a "conformist", you mention it is because you are not interested in suffering the reprimand. To me, this is an introverted thinking-type description. It is a different story if you won't act out because:

- rules are important/necessary and should be always obeyed
- other people won't accept you if you don't conform
- you feel personally guilty about non-conformity
- you think the church actually gives a damn about your eternal well-being
- you believe things that can be proven false

, to me, this is more in line with the SJ temperament, in your case we would be looking mostly at ISFJ or INFP because you don't show any signs of Se perceiving in your description, so SP/NJ can be ruled out most likely. You could reassess the function of introverted feeling and see how it measures up but I am personally a little doubtful. The way you have described your standpoint on abortion, can be interpreted as Fi, but also Fe, more information is needed. However, if you review the type descriptions, compare INFP for sure, as I would consider this long before considering INFJ.

If you want to compare INTJ, think about somebody who would legitimately prefer to have their opinions heard and suffer the consequence, than to be stifled and conform, especially if it means upsetting other people. Figure that out, no wonder they are despised.

 

[WALKYRIA]

Actually you should also look into enneagram...
INTPs many times are 5w6 or 5w4(the more rebellious classic atheist INTP), but in other times they might be 9w1(pacifists ).
My guess is that you'r some kind of 9w1 INTP or eventually a 6w5(loyalist intellectuals= rule abiders,) or 6.... which are oh curiously more oftentimes associated with ISFJ, SF's and NF's.

So look into enneagram dude. always.

 

[Lindsay1]

I test as 5w6 (with the next closest being 6w5, 5w4, and 9w1).

I don't think I'm a feeler type. I've considered the possibility, but I just don't have particularly string feelings most of the time, with a few exceptions (such as my stance on life, as I posted above.) Other than that, most of the time I feel pretty detached and apathetic. I'm usually a really calm person.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

What is your view on death penalty?

 

[Brontosaurie]

i do think INTP has a liberal/anarchist inclination, founded on logic and parsimony, which is stronger than their desire to oppose and deliver contrary perspectives regardless of validity. also a more global/universal approach which should render the micro-scale bickering of your local environment irrelevant. so the idea of your being a catholic outcast somehow corroborating the INTP hypothesis has no merit in my opinion. i would attribute this to some kind of Si business. maybe the placidity and casual nature of it indicates tertiary Si, otoh... but hallmark Ti-Ne? no. in any case i think you should work on it.

other than that, i think you have a level-headed, calm, humble style and this suggests INTP; most blatantly the Ti-Fe dynamic.

 

[Lindsay1]

I'm against the death penalty. It might be a bit inconsistent if I valued life in the case of abortion but totally disregarded it in the case of the death penalty. There have been people sentenced to the death penalty who were later found to be innocent after new evidence was presented.

 

[pernoctator]

It sounds like you're a nonconformist, liberal rebel who avoids conflict.

 

[OrcaNerd]

I say YES, you are INTP. It all depends on your reasoning behind your actions and beliefs. Is it based on logic or emotion? It all comes down to the why-re. Hehe. Bad puns.

You said you decided on your own to be Catholic because you actually agree with it. If it seems a logical system to you, then you clearly see it differently than those who see it as emotional. That's not a bad thing and you're certainly allowed intelligent dissent.

Some people choose to conform to nonconformity. I tend to do my own thing as it pleases me, which tends to be on the non-conformist side. Non-conformity is also relative. If you're a Catholic amongst Catholic haters(including an INTP forum), you are not conforming to your social environment. I know liberals who are guilty of conformist behavior and are blind to it! I think the media has brainwashed the public into thinking conservatism=conformity and conforming to liberalism is nonconformity. It really isn't so simple and each individual should decide what is best for himself based on reason and logic.

I would argue you actually are a non-conformist. You are looking at the social structure around you and questioning it. It just so happens the social structure around you is liberal. You agree with traditional beliefs, but not for the sake of tradition, but because it is logical to you. Across all political, religious, social beliefs systems, the one common value is blind acceptance. That is the real conformity, not the system itself. Above all these groupings is the core belief you must pick one system to conform to and never question. You are not doing that; you are analyzing, questioning, and choosing accordingly.


I see liberals as overly emotional and melodramatic. I cannot tolerate the pathos oriented rants they try to pass as arguments. I see conservatives that way as well. However, both sides also present logical reasoning in certain areas.

Question everything and come to your own logical conclusion, that is what's important. If you hold a traditional belief or value, is it for the sake of tradition or reason? Think about your motives.

I am pro-life as well. I am not sure why this is considered a traditional belief, but it is. I don't value tradition, but on this topic, reason leads me to the same conclusion traditionalists have. Just because my conclusion is the same, doesn't mean my reasoning is. I often get annoyed when people assume I use emotion to form conclusions because my conclusions are in-line with conservative or traditional thought or because I'm a woman.

I too see an abortion as no more than an act of convenience....it's inconvenient to die in childbirth, it's inconvenient to raise a poop-machine when I think I have better things to do, etc. A human embryo is a separate human being and it is biologically impossible for it to be anything else. People want to treat it as a a tumor, a part of their own body. This is scientifically invalid. Were we not supposed to learn the scientific criteria for life, definition or a species, and basic reproduction concepts in junior high? How do people miss this? What I find most puzzling is that the pro-abortion crowd is also pro-evolution because they claim they value science. But I digress.....

Ben Stein, a supposed INTP, is a creationist. As long as he has examined the evidence BOTH for and against and come to his own conclusion, I say good for him. There are those who simply choose to accept the theory of evolution simply because "it's the sciency thing to do" or "some scientist said so." These people are not rational and value authority and conformity as much as people who reject it simply because of their political affiliation.

You also value consistency and justice, another INTP trait.

 

[Base groove]

Yeah uh huh there must be a logical reason for being pro life! Who knows what it is though?

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Yes. I agree.
What you were getting at is individual consistency.
I contrast this with group-think consistency.
I.e. just because i am associating myself with a group,
(let's suppose i share 55% of their thought on various topics)
i don't have to be entirely consistent with the doctrine of the group,
if i happen to have logical or ethical objections.
If the group then decides to kick me out,
well that's just too human.
But it's irrational.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Yeah uh huh there must be a logical reason for being pro life! Who knows what it is though?

Logical within a framework of ethics, sure.

 

[Goku]

I'm against the death penalty. It might be a bit inconsistent if I valued life in the case of abortion but totally disregarded it in the case of the death penalty. There have been people sentenced to the death penalty who were later found to be innocent after new evidence was presented.

I just want to note that you've merely pointed out a flaw with the system, but not an inherent argument against the death penalty; in other words, if they system worked perfectly, and no innocent people could be put to death, what then do you think about the death penalty?

 

[Minuend]

I think ApostateAbe had a good point in the Charles Manson thread about risking innocent lives:

Capital punishment is the best moral option if:

x > wy

x is the proportion of people in a society without capital punishment who are murdered because of the lack of deterrent.

y is the proportion of innocent people who are executed in a society with capital punishment.

w is the weighting coefficient of y such that the moral value of wy (innocent people executed) is equal to x (the number of innocent people killed because of lack of deterrent).

If the life of a person in the x group is morally equally to the life of a person in the y group, then b=1.

Studies consistently show that the death penalty has a significant deterrent effect on murder. For example, one study concluded in 2003 that "each execution results, on average, in eighteen fewer murders—with a margin of error of plus or minus ten" (Does Capital Punishment Have a Deterrent Effect? New Evidence from Postmoratorium Panel Data).

In this case, 18 is the multiple of innocent lives saved to executed prisoners killed. So, that forces w has to be at least around 18 in order for the inequality to be false. An innocent human life on the right side has to be worth more than 18 times the life of an innocent person on the left side.

We are not done yet, however. The right side of the inequality is made much smaller because not every executed criminal is innocent. If we were to speculate that a tenth of all executed criminals were innocent, then we would be forcing w to be multiplied by 10.

The life of an innocent person who is wrongfully executed by the state has to be worth 180 times more than the life of an innocent person who is brutally murdered by a criminal.

There are two rooms. In one room, you have one innocent man.In the other room, you have 180 innocent men, women and children. If you do nothing, then the 180 people will be brutally slain. If you kill the one innocent man, then the 180 people will live on. What do you do? If you value human life far more than you hate having "blood on my hands," then you kill the one. Otherwise, you let the one innocent man go free and the 180 people be slain. From the perspective of an unemotional moral machine, the choice is clear. From the perspective of a fallible moral creature with a sensitive but near-sighted conscience, maybe you just don't have it in you.

Personally, I find that people tend to value lives too highly. To me there's no reason we should value life just to value all life. Some criminals can never be rehabilitated to make useful contribution to society and people. They will always be a risk to the flock. Putting them in jail for 60 years is a waste.

A fetus doesn't even have a consciousness, I see abortion no different than removing your appendix. Raising a child is not an "inconvenience". It drastically changes your life and economy. A child is never something you should just go along with because "whoops, condom broke, oh well let's just have the child then". Not everyone make good parents.

 

[Latte]

Yeah uh huh there must be a logical reason for being pro life! Who knows what it is though?

Well, not being pro-life must mean one is against life. Why do you hate life, mate?

Or, well, at least that's what the labeling of oneself with such terminology implies about those who don't agree.

 

[blakasuta]

I am an INTP and I am also not so rebellious most of the time, although I have had an argument with my supervisor and since then I feel like being labelled as "stubborn and people-that-did-not-follow-my-supervisor-instruction". But that only because she said something that go against my principle.

Beside of rebellious character, INTP is also an easy going and adaptable person.

 

[ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε]

Well, not being pro-life must mean one is against life. Why do you hate life, mate?

Or, well, at least that's what the labeling of oneself with such terminology implies about those who don't agree.

I'm pro-life but I used to be kind of indifferent about life before. Isn't that an option as well?

 

[Latte]

I'm pro-life but I used to be kind of indifferent about life before. Isn't that an option as well?

Spoiler

 

[ElvenVeil]

bah lost my post I was writing : (

in short: There is nothing inherent in your choices that would make you one type or the other. I am sure the person *you are* and upbringing/environment plays an important role in there as well.

What is more relevant in order to discover your type, is how you approach and go about things.
In your post it seems rather evident that finding explanations for things is important to you.. you 'argued' with yourself throughout your post. you also come off as a Fe to me with your focus on 'what other's think'. These I would say are the sides of yourself that you show in your post. At very least I would say much point towards Ti dom.

I suspect you come off as very Fe focused because you might be used to communicate with others in this mode. Your Ti seems much more reserved for you. I also suspect that you might not be very good at giving yourself what your person needs giving how much you navigate conversations in this Fe'ish manner. But that would be common for so many people that are still getting to know themselves better.