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Animals and Bloodsports

Pyropyro

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I've recently watched a Nat Geo documentary about bloodsports and so far I wasn't convinced that animal bloodsports aren't worth it save one.

Bull-fighting. I still don't like it but at least I have more respect for it now.

Aside from being a culture thing (Which I respect) I think it's awesome for the bull to have a chance to kill their enemies even if the odds are really against them. They can go down in history as a great fighter rather than being consigned to a mundane farm life. Even people are not given that kind of honor.

My stand is that it's okay to harm/ kill animals unless it's for survival (food source, pest control etc.) or security (self-defense or defending loved ones etc.). I'm not supportive of bloodsports' entertainment purposes since you can get your entertainment somewhere else and the gambling that it causes only benefits the house.

Any thoughts?
 
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What if the bloodsport is part of sacrifice that both draws a crowd and feeds a village?

(NSFW)
sacrifice1.jpg
 

Pyropyro

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What if the bloodsport is part of sacrifice that both draws a crowd and feeds a village?

(NSFW)
sacrifice1.jpg


As long as they eat it then why not?

I do have some issues on the blood though. Those should have been used to prepare blood stew.
 

GodOfOrder

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I wouldn't mind if we brought back roman style gladiatorial combat
 

Pyropyro

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I wouldn't mind if we brought back roman style gladiatorial combat

Well if they will include it in political debates and senate inquiries :D
 

Ex-User (9062)

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On the topic of bullfighting:
This seems to be an archaic practice which has its origin in the Mithraic Mysteries.
800px-KunsthistorischesMuseumMithrabulSacrifice.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

Essentially, modern day bull fighting is a ritual without significance, the ritual itself has become its own end, a perversion and spectacle.

Cockfighting has met the same fate.
It once was an archaic custom with religious significance,
but deteriorated to its current form in the non-tribal environment.

At first cockfighting was partly a religious and partly a political institution at Athens; and was continued for improving the seeds of valor in the minds of their youth, but was afterwards perverted both there and in the other parts of Greece to a common pastime, without any political or religious intention.
I hold the view that we should restrict these practices for above reasons.
 

Hadoblado

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I don't see how stripping it of political and religious significance is bad. It has entertainment value, if it didn't, it wouldn't be popular.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Well you could say the same thing about gladiators.
Why don't we force people to stage against each other?
It surely has entertainment value for someone and it surely would be popular.

I don't assume that you didnt consider moral aspects, however it's obvious that this slaughter of living things can be compared to slaughter of humans. They obviously feel hurt.

If you would look at things only by their entertaiment value you would be lost.
 

Pyropyro

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I hold the view that we should restrict these practices for above reasons.

I agree that there are some bloodsports that should be kept for cultural, religious and political reasons. In a way, those are means for survival as a society and there are some rituals and traditions that can only passed down through bloodshed.

Entertainment is good, but it's not technically that necessary for survival and people can get them through other means.
 

Hadoblado

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Well you could say the same thing about gladiators.
Why don't we force people to stage against each other?
It surely has entertainment value for someone and it surely would be popular.

I don't assume that you didnt consider moral aspects, however it's obvious that this slaughter of living things can be compared to slaughter of humans. They obviously feel hurt.

If you would look at things only by their entertaiment value you would be lost.

I don't endorse it, I just don't think that religion and politics was a particularly good reason either. At least entertainments is honest.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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I don't endorse it, I just don't think that religion and politics was a particularly good reason either. At least entertainments is honest.
Maybe next leap forward in collective understanding will be bridging this abstraction of politics, religion straight to moral values that lie under structures.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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I don't endorse it, I just don't think that religion and politics was a particularly good reason either. At least entertainments is honest.

What i meant is that it should be allowed for the religious practice of certain groups to enable them to live according to custom and tradition.
The reasonability might not be obvious to outsiders.
Entertainment exploits evolutionary biology and vulgarizes the metaphysical aspects depicted in ritual practice.
It is void of any meaning.
 

Cavalli

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All I have to say in regard to animal bloodsports is this:

If you're not prepared to

a) throw your pet in there to fight for someone's entertainment; you shouldn't support it.
b) fight someone else - to the death - for someone's entertainment; you shouldn't support it.

As for religious rituals, frankly I think that's bullshit. You can't get away with something just because it's for your 'religion'. Would you be okay with a (purely for exemplary purposes) Catholic priest sacrificing a whole heap of young children (maybe four, five years old?) for a 'religious ritual?'

If you say yes then you're a liar. No one would be okay with that. If you're not prepared to harm another human being for entertainment, religious purposes etc. then don't harm an animal for it.

I'm okay with killing animals for food, survival, defence etc. however I don't think you should do it idly. When I eat meat I don't just take it for granted and I don't think anyone should.

But yeah, religion is just a bullshit excuse - sorry. As someone who doesn't believe in any Gods, I can't accept that as an excuse.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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You don't seem to understand.
I have provided a wikipedia link before, why can't anyone be bothered to read it?

You are constructing moral absolutes based on fiction.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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All I have to say in regard to animal bloodsports is this:

If you're not prepared to

a) throw your pet in there to fight for someone's entertainment; you shouldn't support it.
b) fight someone else - to the death - for someone's entertainment; you shouldn't support it.

As for religious rituals, frankly I think that's bullshit. You can't get away with something just because it's for your 'religion'. Would you be okay with a (purely for exemplary purposes) Catholic priest sacrificing a whole heap of young children (maybe four, five years old?) for a 'religious ritual?'

If you say yes then you're a liar. No one would be okay with that. If you're not prepared to harm another human being for entertainment, religious purposes etc. then don't harm an animal for it.

I'm okay with killing animals for food, survival, defence etc. however I don't think you should do it idly. When I eat meat I don't just take it for granted and I don't think anyone should.

But yeah, religion is just a bullshit excuse - sorry. As someone who doesn't believe in any Gods, I can't accept that as an excuse.
You are now misunderstanding the problem.

You propose that if your moral values allow you to harm and be harmed in the process then you are free to do so.
This is just the underlying principle of violence that you described.

This would mean you can allow yourself to harm others for your entertainment if you had no objections, regardless of objections of other beings.


You don't seem to understand.
I have provided a wikipedia link before, why can't anyone be bothered to read it?

You are constructing moral absolutes based on fiction.
Creating a Religious ritual out of slaughter and harm is a charade, it is a way to allow yourself to indulge in violence whilst maintaining your illusionary rejection of this principle.
 
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redbaron

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It's the logical endpoint of your reasoning though.

If you think animal bloodsport is not okay for entertainment, but it is okay for religious custom - why do you draw the line between them?

What else is not okay for entertainment purposes, but is for religious ones? How does that even work? Should we allow human sacrifice for people who wish to practice their religious customs also?

It's not that people didn't read the link. There are implied parallels in your reasoning that beg certain questions, so people are addressing them.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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I'm okay with killing animals for food, survival, defence etc. however I don't think you should do it idly. When I eat meat I don't just take it for granted and I don't think anyone should.

These are exactly some of the values which are incorporated into ritual practice, but you fail to realize it.
If you had read the link, you would have discovered that the feast is an important part of the ritual.
Animal sacrifice is, anthropologically speaking, a common denominator around the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sacrifice

That's where it comes from, that's where it belongs.
What's so difficult about that?


Also, you are making a mistake of equating the NECESSITY of omnivorous human animals to feed upon animal flesh,
as being the same as cannibalism, which is simply logically and biologically wrong.
 
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Ex-User (9086)

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These are exactly some of the values which are incorporated into ritual practice, but you fail to realize it.
If you had read the link, you would have discovered that the feast is an important part of the ritual.
Animal sacrifice is, anthropologically speaking, a common denominator around the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sacrifice

That's where it comes from, that's where it belongs.
What's so difficult about that?
I agree that not every ritual of slaughter is celebrating violence and can have practical background.

Simply, use of the term "religion" without moral basis and comparing it to morals and values is void.
 
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Pyropyro

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If you think animal bloodsport is not okay for entertainment, but it is okay for religious custom - why do you draw the line between them?

What else is not okay for entertainment purposes, but is for religious ones? How does that even work? Should we allow human sacrifice for people who wish to practice their religious customs also?

As I said earlier, the religious practices stemmed for society's survival even if they can't understand it during that time. Why do you sacrifice mostly male animals? Because you see that the flock becomes better afterwards (although the likely culprit that was removed was actually interbreeding).

As for cultures that engage in human sacrifices, they tend to kill themselves on their own. (throwing corpses on your water supply isn't a good idea as our Mayan friends found out). They either die with the beliefs or kill the custom on their own.

Another culture/group have the same right to defend themselves from such practices like they have the "freedom" to practice it. (if you kill someone then you go to jail)

At the end of the day, the freedom of expression that protects the atheists and the agnostics are the same principle that protects the religious people. If you try to suppress them then there's nothing stopping them from suppressing your beliefs too.
 
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I think this is the best thread I've seen in a while. Diverse perspectives within. Blood everywhere. :adamemote1:
As long as they eat it then why not?

I do have some issues on the blood though. Those should have been used to prepare blood stew.
Utilitarianism does have some faults. If resource incorporation is more efficient during times of abundance, then it raises demand during lean times.

A theoretical example: If a fox becomes more efficient at using food energy in autumn, when rabbit populations are high, that energy is put into reproduction and more offspring are produced than if the fox were less efficient. The fox population increase puts more pressure on food resources in spring, when rabbit numbers are low, which leads to widespread starvation.

In people this manifests more as a psychological effect.
I wouldn't mind if we brought back roman style gladiatorial combat
It would probably lower violent crime statistics outside of the arena. Detroit?

@Salmoneus
Essentially, modern day bull fighting is a ritual without significance, the ritual itself has become its own end, a perversion and spectacle.

Cockfighting has met the same fate.
It once was an archaic custom with religious significance, but deteriorated to its current form in the non-tribal environment.

I hold the view that we should restrict these practices for above reasons.
What i meant is that it should be allowed for the religious practice of certain groups to enable them to live according to custom and tradition.
The reasonability might not be obvious to outsiders.
Entertainment exploits evolutionary biology and vulgarizes the metaphysical aspects depicted in ritual practice.
It is void of any meaning.
I take up a line similar to Hado's in that I don't see how it's void of meaning; it's just taken on a different meaning.

It sounds weird when I say it aloud, but a given ritual isn't effectively owned by any specific group. Otherwise new rituals would never be practiced and the old would die out. A ritual itself is akin to a living being or a child that changes and evolves. A ritual going rogue might be the result of bad parenting.

@Blarraun
Well you could say the same thing about gladiators.
Why don't we force people to stage against each other?
It surely has entertainment value for someone and it surely would be popular.

I don't assume that you didnt consider moral aspects, however it's obvious that this slaughter of living things can be compared to slaughter of humans. They obviously feel hurt.
We do force them, just indirectly through mechanisms like poverty. And yes, some do get entertainment from it. They usually have money and/or a Typhoid Mary complex.

I don't like the altruistic/humanistic argument. Pain is a necessary fact of life. In some ways slaughter is preferred to poverty et al.

"Maybe next leap forward in collective understanding will be bridging this abstraction of politics, religion straight to moral values that lie under structures."

^This, I think. In time.

@Cavalli
All I have to say in regard to animal bloodsports is this:

If you're not prepared to

a) throw your pet in there to fight for someone's entertainment; you shouldn't support it.
b) fight someone else - to the death - for someone's entertainment; you shouldn't support it.

As for religious rituals, frankly I think that's bullshit. You can't get away with something just because it's for your 'religion'. Would you be okay with a (purely for exemplary purposes) Catholic priest sacrificing a whole heap of young children (maybe four, five years old?) for a 'religious ritual?'

If you say yes then you're a liar. No one would be okay with that. If you're not prepared to harm another human being for entertainment, religious purposes etc. then don't harm an animal for it.

I'm okay with killing animals for food, survival, defence etc. however I don't think you should do it idly. When I eat meat I don't just take it for granted and I don't think anyone should.

But yeah, religion is just a bullshit excuse - sorry. As someone who doesn't believe in any Gods, I can't accept that as an excuse.
I don't understand this at all. Not all living things are people, and Mother Nature is a spiteful sadistic bitch who kills naturally through such means as invenomation and disembowelment.

(Spoiler NSFW)
One can't put all life on an equal moralistic pedestal of protection as man and then claim that man is better than the hyena because he doesn't disembowel and eat pregnant zebras alive from the bottom up. Being an altruist doesn't prevent you from being a victim.

"You can't get away with something just because it's for your 'religion'."

You've got the cause and effect backwards in ^this sentence.

Would I be okay with human sacrifice? Yes. I might even participate if the reasoning meshed with my belief system. (I know you're being hit hard in terms of conflicting ethics, but just work with me/us for a second. And Catholics haven't openly participated in human sacrifice in some time now... They're probably about due to start again soon.)

"If you say yes then you're a liar. No one would be okay with that."

:cat: Consider that those who were sacrificed by the Mayans and Aztecs often were okay with it. In fact, many wanted it. To be chosen or to volunteer was a BFD.
Creating a Religious ritual out of slaughter and harm is a charade, it is a way to allow yourself to indulge in violence whilst maintaining your illusionary rejection of this principle.
Religion often deals with life, death, and the boundaries of existence. What better way to ritualize such things than to involve them? Nonviolence is the illusion here.

@Pyropyro
Why do you sacrifice mostly male animals? Because you see that the flock becomes better afterwards (although the likely culprit that was removed was actually interbreeding).

As for cultures that engage in human sacrifices, they tend to kill themselves on their own. (throwing corpses on your water supply isn't a good idea as our Mayan friends found out). They either die with the beliefs or kill the custom on their own.

Another culture/group have the same right to defend themselves from such practices like they have the "freedom" to practice it. (if you kill someone then you go to jail)

At the end of the day, the freedom of expression that protects the atheists and the agnostics are the same principle that protects the religious people. If you try to suppress them then there's nothing stopping them from suppressing your beliefs too.
A lot of the time the sacrifice of male animals also involves population dynamics. If males and females are born at a 1:1 ratio, yet one male can impregnate 40+ females, then a lot of "excess" males are going to be killed and eaten. It actually encourages interbreeding.

The Mayans also weren't alone in their practices, though their fate was. Groups who competed with the Maya, and the Aztecs later on, were very similar. If you killed someone, you didn't go to jail; the tribe to which that someone belonged raided yours and sacrificed one or a few members of yours. Human sacrifice was the norm across most of North America at one point, actually; much like a currency. I highly doubt we can realistically restrict this to the Americas.
 

GodOfOrder

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It would probably lower violent crime statistics outside of the arena. Detroit?

No, Detroit is reserved for military war games, due to its peculiar amount of abandoned buildings. Once the city finally goes under, it will be perfect for urban warfare simulations.

Actually, we could wall the city in, place cameras everywhere, and make our very own hunger games/ battle royal/ whatever. :D
 

Ex-User (9086)

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A theoretical example: If a fox becomes more efficient at using food energy in autumn, when rabbit populations are high, that energy is put into reproduction and more offspring are produced than if the fox were less efficient. The fox population increase puts more pressure on food resources in spring, when rabbit numbers are low, which leads to widespread starvation.

In people this manifests more as a psychological effect.
What would be this psychological effect, I'm interested in seeing how you relate efficiency to psychology.
It would probably lower violent crime statistics outside of the arena. Detroit?
I know this is semi-serious but it can apply.
Using this fox example, a lot of violence, or efficient violence in one place, would produce excess of violence and would later result in a period of violent-starvation (by the lack of victims given equal or higher demand on violence) giving lowered crime statistics. Simple and efficient way of obtaining numbers rather than clean process.

Do i have to provide naturalist example to prove that you cannot apply animalistic principles to humans?

Lets look at flora rather than fauna. Oaks can grow, merge and grow together. They grow best when there are periods of peace and abundance, this increases their number to the limit. This limit can be derived from the area they occupy rather than from the number of beings they have left to prey upon.
Once this limit is reached, some oaks will wither, some will merge, but majority of the trees will find balanced distance between each other to maintain growth.

As you have shown in your example; increase of freedom at the expense of the weak promotes growth of the strong.

In my example; increased growth of every being limits freedom to grow of this being and other beings around it.

Non-violence might not be simpler because it requires distinction of two terms, but may be as well or more efficient, when we use this kind of examples.

In a sense humans can be placed above plantae or animalia in this way that they do not require evolution to adopt their growth pattern.
@Blarraun
We do force them, just indirectly through mechanisms like poverty. And yes, some do get entertainment from it. They usually have money and/or a Typhoid Mary complex.

I don't like the altruistic/humanistic argument. Pain is a necessary fact of life. In some ways slaughter is preferred to poverty et al.
I do not dismiss the idea of inequality, poverty etc. The class of those having more controls the class of the people having less. This is not obvious though, that this class should strive to maintain the inequality, this is just another expression of violence, which given human understanding can be traversed.
This shows violence as a valid trend rather than a rule or better choice.

You assume that knowing pain is necessary for knowing life? If so, how can you decide how much pain can be inflicted on each individual. Clearly we are in a situation where pain is distributed inequally.

One can't put all life on an equal moralistic pedestal of protection as man and then claim that man is better than the hyena because he doesn't disembowel and eat pregnant zebras alive from the bottom up. Being an altruist doesn't prevent you from being a victim.

By the use of violence man places himself above his every victim. He with his power decides what is right from his point of view.
Allowing yourself equal standing in the matter of agression-non agression does not mean man cannot consider higher standards and contexts. Surely rejecting to be classified only as a member of animalia allows you to judge from other points of view, something human is capable of doing.

Religion often deals with life, death, and the boundaries of existence. What better way to ritualize such things than to involve them? Nonviolence is the illusion here.
I cannot agree, if anything, we have expressed two different ideas that explain the matter from a different perspective.
I cannot see how your idea would be non-illusion if mine was.

@Pyropyro
A lot of the time the sacrifice of male animals also involves population dynamics. If males and females are born at a 1:1 ratio, yet one male can impregnate 40+ females, then a lot of "excess" males are going to be killed and eaten. It actually encourages interbreeding.
This is just another naturalist expression. I believe you understand that we can create abstract concepts? Or that not every thought we have can be derived from nature? I view nature as our heritage of earthly evolution, however man can grasp concepts so much more abstract than this. Man can complement the entire concept of nature, making unnatural. Is this complementary "unnatural", natural?

You have proven that tendency to use violence is prevalent as it is natural, I have shown how non-violence can be natural and unnatural in a way that man can choose himself what values he follows and still maintain efficiency.

I do not label or accuse you in person, every instance of you i refer to is your expression of your views in this post. Every my attempt to question comes from my interest and strives for some understanding of the matter.

I do not feel i have shown that views i present in this post are superior to yours, this would require larger debate.
For the sake of this post i feel i have proven that they are at least equal.
 
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Directly lifted from another forum, but may be of interest to some:

SkinWalker said:
I recently listened to a podcast that included a "theologian" who lectured about "sacrifice" and "ritual." The "theologian" adhered to the view by Rene Girard that sacrifice is a form of victimizing and scapegoating, which, to those who haven't studied religion from an anthropological or sociological perspective, might seem intuitive.

However, I take issue with Rene Girard's view, which includes that all sacrifices are the same as human sacrifice.

Mention the word “sacrifice” in a religious context and, for many people, thoughts of young virgins tossed in volcanoes by a Polynesian King or lying on altars below the obscenely sharp obsidian blade of an Aztec ruler. Or perhaps they’re reminded of the story of blind faith by Abraham who was prepared to murder his son for a god that commanded it.

While human sacrifice is a part of many cultures in antiquity and even, in some unfortunate instances, modernity, this type of sacrifice is relatively rare. There are those that take a Girardian view of ritual and sacrifice and assert that sacrifice is a form of victimizing or scapegoating an individual. The Girardian will often point to the self-sacrifice of Jesus as an example of a god on earth exposing the “scapegoating mechanism.” One of the many faults with this way of looking at sacrifice and other religious rituals is that to do so, one must assume that the intent is to victimize -to create a scapegoat.

While it is certainly true that human sacrifices are victims, it is a very myopic view to assert that they’re all scapegoats (certainly some or even many were), and it isn’t true that, in most cases, the intent of sacrifice is to create a victim.

Sacrifice is a perceived method of communicating with gods or ancestors and is a process that has existed for thousands of years in human history and prehistory. We have evidence of it going back to the time of Neanderthals depending on what you consider to be sacrifice.

For the anthropologist, a sacrifice is a special kind of offering. A mere offering to the gods by the average religious adherent deprives the worshiper of little. A libation of oil here; a tithe of coin there… But a true sacrifice creates a significant cost to the worshiper. In antiquity, we see evidence in both written and material record of sacrifices that truly put the worshiper (the religious adherent) in a situation where piety becomes more important that personal gain, wealth or even well-being. The sacrifice demonstrates that piety with the level of piety directly proportional to the level of sacrifice.

The vast majority of sacrifices in the archaeological record do not involve the taking of human life . Rather they include the offering of first fruits, first lambs, finest bulls or the best ox, significant portions of one’s wealth, etc. The worshiper hopes that the god to whom he is offering a sacrifice will reciprocate, bringing good fortune in the way of rain, keeping the locusts away, etc. The worshiper shows respect to the god or an ancestor in the way he might to a king: there might be a desire that the god would offer forgiveness or perhaps expiation for some transgression.. In this regard, forgiveness is a more abstract concept than simple reciprocity. The worshiper may also seek to show abnegation by demonstrating to the god that he is practicing self-denial and seeking the pity or favor of the god. Very often, the sacrifices come at a time when good-fortune has seemingly been bestowed upon the society in the form of a good harvest or success in battle.

Pascal Boyer (2001)[1] explores several reasons for sacrifice described by ethnographers like Roger Keesing (1982)[2] and notes that while sacrifices are “presented as giving away some resources in exchange for protection, the brutal fact remains that the sacrificed animals are generally consumed by the participants.” The result is a “communal sharing” and a social function that brings people of the community together. The meat is shared and those who can’t afford to provide an animal of their own often still benefit from the sacrifice, receiving meat and gifts.

Sacrifice is often about sharing resources and giving up that which is valuable and nearly indispensable. Even in cases where human sacrifice was practiced. The Girardian would suggest that the sacrificed individual was victimized as a scapegoat, but very often the sacrifice went willing and probably believed the offering of life to be an honor. Even with instances of sacrifice where consent wasn’t possible, as with infant and child sacrifices found in various places of the ancient world such as Peru’s central coast as early as 5000 BCE, the Levant from around 3000 BCE, and Carthage, Tunisia dating to around 800 BCE, the sacrificial “victim” was honored. Great care was taken in Peru, for instance, to place mica over the eyes and a clear quartz rock in place of the heart suggesting magical intent. One doesn’t bother to take such expensive and detailed care of scapegoats.

Human sacrifice, even among the Aztec, doesn’t seem to be about scapegoating or victimizing. A recent excavation at Teotihuacan[3] revealed more than 80 human sacrifices that some have suggested were prisoners of war, perhaps sacrificed to dedicate the temple they were excavated from. But, even here, there has been indication that the “victims” were willing and honored participants, largely due to the positioning of the bodies as well as their adornments. These were among the finest and most skilled warriors of the society at the time.

From the point of view of the sacrificers in cultures like the Aztec, the gods are being repaid a debt. The Girardian would suggest, however, that those sacrificed are the unwanted of society -the expendable. The Girardian would also suggest that human sacrifice is the same as the sacrifice of animals and material goods[4]. But the Girardian misses the point of sacrifice in much of religion. There are undoubtedly religious cults throughout human history that have exploited the “disposable” members of their society for the appearance of pious sacrifices to gods or ancestors. But there are many, many more that place high importance on true sacrifice being that which is vital or most valued to the individual and the society: prize bulls, intricately carved jewelry, ornately plumed birds, fiercest predators, first-picked crops, etc. And, when it came to humans, skilled warriors and virgins were highly valued, thus offered as payment to the gods.

References

1. Boyer, Pascal (2001). Religion Explained: the evolutionary origins of religious thought. Basic Books

2. Keesing, Roger (1982). Kwaio Religion: the Living and the Dead in a Solomon Island Society. Columbia University Press

3. Sugiyama, Saburo (2005). Human Sacrifice, Militarism, and Rulership: Materialization of State Ideology at the Feathered Serpent Pyramid, Teotihuacan. Cambridge University Press, pp. 226-230.

4. Examples of both of these Girardian positions can be seen in Rene Girard’s Violence and the Sacred, pp. 10-13, J.H. Press 1993

http://www.thescienceforum.com/scie...ice-religion-anthropological-perspective.html
 
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I spoiler'd this thing in sections. This is gonna be a long one, peeps. :phear:

(But it is probably worth it. I'm more lucid now than I've been in quite some time).
What would be this psychological effect, I'm interested in seeing how you relate efficiency to psychology.
Through risk assessment and perception in general. A more tangible-ish psychological example might be the economic crash (spending is the result of behavior, which is tangible vs an experience, though in experiential terms we're probably going into the territory of mood and cognition; Kraepelin waves).

During a period of relatively high income and high employment, consumers and governments (foxes, red and gray, if you will) chose to take on large amounts of debt (habitat), convinced that they could continue to work and produce at those levels. In other words, overestimating their future efficiency, and overestimating the future value of their current assets. The rabbits (houses) were fat and plentiful. Why wouldn't it always be that way?

And then the rabbits went through a tularemia epidemic. :D Our ability to obtain financing (habitat) declined, which reduced our ability to hunt rabbits/buy houses, and value was sucked out of our system by venerable little parasites (bankers).

Behavioral changes? More people attending college and putting off work. Employers downsizing to save their businesses. Changes in spending and travel patterns (Say... less prime rib at a restaurant, more McDonald's. Less vacations, more staycations). Changes in work habits (fewer individuals working more hours at a lower hourly wage). And countless other reverberations.

It doesn't have to be limited to producing offspring, man's r/k flexibility be damned. :angel:
I know this is semi-serious but it can apply.
Using this fox example, a lot of violence, or efficient violence in one place, would produce excess of violence and would later result in a period of violent-starvation (by the lack of victims given equal or higher demand on violence) giving lowered crime statistics. Simple and efficient way of obtaining numbers rather than clean process.
How does violence lead to excess violence? (My thoughts immediately center on things like "nationbuilding" breeding terrorists, a la Al Qaeda, but I want to know how you're treating violence as a physical-ish thing when it's the result of anger, a very ubiquitous and nonphysical thing that apparently disperses relatively quickly). I understand that the rate of violent behavior may escalate, but not the amount of violence. (Don't you just love qualia?)

I think the key depends on context and meaning. A gang shooting is liable to piss off multiple individuals willing to return the favor perhaps tenfold. It's unexpected from the perspective of the victim and peers. But gladiatorial combat isn't. The eventual outcome is clear and expected, and behavior of both participants and observers changes accordingly.
Do i have to provide naturalist example to prove that you cannot apply animalistic principles to humans?
Whoa whoa whoa! Cognitive Dissonance! :D

Don't let the username fool you. I'm a systems guy/addict. All systems run on inputs and outputs with complex mechanisms inbetween (and "input" and "output" are also arbitrary isolational labels depending on direction). I use examples from ecology because it represents a macrosystem with maximum potential interaction density; all the complexities of physics, psychology and philosophy; agency + engineering.

And that proving stuff... It can't happen (due to the limits of empiricism and the nature of uncertainty). :p
Lets look at flora rather than fauna. Oaks can grow, merge and grow together. They grow best when there are periods of peace and abundance, this increases their number to the limit. This limit can be derived from the area they occupy rather than from the number of beings they have left to prey upon.
Once this limit is reached, some oaks will wither, some will merge, but majority of the trees will find balanced distance between each other to maintain growth.

As you have shown in your example; increase of freedom at the expense of the weak promotes growth of the strong.

In my example; increased growth of every being limits freedom to grow of this being and other beings around it.

Non-violence might not be simpler because it requires distinction of two terms, but may be as well or more efficient, when we use this kind of examples.
There's no such thing as an increase in freedom, which is a constant for every agent, just a shift in the awareness of freedom through perception.

Your example of nonviolence is actually a striking example of successful violence. :D

Oaks are fire-dependent species. They grow best in open space created by destruction (fire, windfall, and occasionally flooding) in a position to secure sunlight. They must outdo entire suites of competing flora, or they will die. Many, many, many, many oaks are starved for sunlight and die. In fact they aid in the creation of this destruction, by building up layers of dead fuelwood in mature forests and periodically covering the ground in slow-decomposing, lignin-rich leaves. By the time they reach the "peace and abundance" stage, they've killed off everything in their understory that isn't shade-tolerant, eliminating competition for soil nutrients and water.

Plants wage war and kill, like all forms of life, they just do it very slowly. Examples of known mechanisms include:

-Enemy Release (being better at staving off herbivores than your competition)
-Increased environmental stress tolerance than competition (light, drought, pollutants, water depth, etc)
-Allelopathy (plant vs plant chemical warfare)
-Better resource uptake mechanisms than competitors, which includes mycorrhizal associations
-Ability to hybridize and thus access adaptive flexibility/evolve more efficiently than competitors
-Spatial competition and growth rates (bamboo is a prime example)

"majority of the trees will find balanced distance between each other to maintain growth."

^Oaks are fascists. (Walnuts are worse, with their toxic juglone.)
In a sense humans can be placed above plantae or animalia in this way that they do not require evolution to adopt their growth pattern.
Most of our evolution takes place up here *points at head* and socially. Flynn Effect.
I do not dismiss the idea of inequality, poverty etc. The class of those having more controls the class of the people having less. This is not obvious though, that this class should strive to maintain the inequality, this is just another expression of violence, which given human understanding can be traversed.
This shows violence as a valid trend rather than a rule or better choice.
Altruism depends on the existence of an unachievable critical mass of altruists. The presence of even a single selfish individual can throw the whole thing out of whack. Check out the spoiler in this post. Altruism is simply a different manifestation of selfishness in which actions are undertaken with the expectation of future reciprocity. "You owe me." Some form of return is expected for service. Even Gandhi was nobody's bitch.

The key to systemic stability is that no pure altruists or pure selfish individuals exist. Each individual behaves altruistically or selfishly towards different things in different circumstances. Equilibrium is achieved when "things" (physical, social, psychological, ideological) are exchanged between individuals for different "things."
You assume that knowing pain is necessary for knowing life? If so, how can you decide how much pain can be inflicted on each individual. Clearly we are in a situation where pain is distributed inequally.
I'm not saying that pain is necessary for knowing life (life can exist while effectively paralyzed; bacteria lack nerve tissue, etc), but that pain is unavoidable, intrinsic, relative, and subjective. Pain is thus inflicted equally upon all individuals. I think I said this earlier, but in a world without broken legs, mosquito bites hurt more. The basic example/demonstration is light vs darkness. One cannot exist without bringing the other into existence. How can we know what darkness is without light to contrast it against? The same applies to pain and pleasure. This is demonstrated by tolerance, which works in both directions. The first time you fall and skin a knee hurts a lot more than the dozenth time. Your first orgasm feels a lot more extreme than it does after you've been whacking the weasel twice daily for 5 years.
By the use of violence man places himself above his every victim. He with his power decides what is right from his point of view. Your disagreement that man cannot place himself higher than animals cannot hold to the violence principle itself.
All life forms do exactly that same thing. The plant deems itself more worthy than the water, sunlight, and nutrients it absorbs. The mouse doesn't give a shit about the life within the seeds it devours. The hawk doesn't care for the 6th mouse of the day that it crushes in its talons. "Life feeds on life"
Man can indeed place himself above all else, but that doesn't make it true. Man preys upon himself, and disintegrates into a microbial cesspool upon death. Bodies are empty shells. This general idea and title of this OP, before it delved into a speculation fest, is applicable.
I cannot agree, if anything, we have expressed two different ideas that explain the matter from a different perspective.
I cannot see how your idea would be non-illusion if mine was.
Hopefully I cleared this part up.
This is just another naturalist expression. I believe you understand that we can create abstract concepts? Or that not every thought we have can be derived from nature? I view nature as our heritage of earthly evolution, however man can grasp concepts so much more abstract than this. Man can complement the entire concept of nature, making unnatural. Is this complementary "unnatural", natural?
Population dynamics are literally math, which is pretty abstract and anthropocentric in understanding. :p

This idea that you're calling complimentary is simply the further discovery and identification of nature; increased perception, which is a rough allegory to sentience and sapience.
I have shown how non-violence can be natural and unnatural in a way that man can choose himself what values he follows and still maintain efficiency.

For the sake of this post i feel i have proven that they are at least equal.
Ah, but you have not, grasshopper. :D
Every my attempt to question comes from my interest and strives for some understanding of the matter.
Oh, I picked up on this, and I greatly appreciate it. I'm ultimately a mirror when it comes to such things. Perception strikes again! :eek:

You know I respect someone here when I type out a ridiculously (rhetorically) long response without repeatedly insulting them.
:elephant:
 
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Directly lifted from another forum, but may be of interest to some:

http://www.thescienceforum.com/scie...ice-religion-anthropological-perspective.html
:D :D :D

Just to add something else that's interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame
Captives were often shown in Maya art, and it is assumed that these captives were sacrificed after losing a rigged ritual ballgame.[54] Rather than nearly nude and sometimes battered captives, however, the ballcourts at El Tajin and Chichen Itza show the sacrifice of practiced ballplayers, perhaps the captain of a team.[55] Decapitation is particularly associated with the ballgame—severed heads are featured in much Late Classic ballgame art and appear repeatedly in the Popol Vuh. There has even been speculation that the heads and skulls were used as balls.[56]
and a brief comment in that not all human sacrifice involves death. Bloodletting and body modification (which includes yoga), for examples.
 

Pyropyro

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I think this is the best thread I've seen in a while. Diverse perspectives within. Blood everywhere. :adamemote1:

Opinions are best served with a dose of bloodshed :D

Utilitarianism does have some faults. If resource incorporation is more efficient during times of abundance, then it raises demand during lean times.

A theoretical example: If a fox becomes more efficient at using food energy in autumn, when rabbit populations are high, that energy is put into reproduction and more offspring are produced than if the fox were less efficient. The fox population increase puts more pressure on food resources in spring, when rabbit numbers are low, which leads to widespread starvation.

In a simple society that may be beneficial although it gets less effective in a complex one especially now that we have decent food preservation and transportation techs. You should try a well-prepared blood stew so you'll understand why it's such as waste (now I'm hungry :( ).
 
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In a simple society that may be beneficial although it gets less effective in a complex one especially now that we have decent food preservation and transportation techs. You should try a well-prepared blood stew so you'll understand why it's such as waste (now I'm hungry :( ).
How? Complexity tends to be sucked into a reduction vortex when members of society produce behavior. Many different influences can result in the exact same behavior; synergy and synchronicity.

For food preservation, check out the first spoiler. It's a general systemic mechanism that goes beyond mere food.

Transportation just increases scale; it doesn't necessarily alter the mechanism.

I know, I just needed an excuse to criticize utilitarianism. :cat:

So let's review what we've/I've learned ITT:

Oak trees are fascists.
Yoga is a form of body modification.
Ritual is supposed to be stolen.
"Opinions are best served with a dose of bloodshed"

:D
 

Polaris

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The difference between humans and most other animals is that humans are able to critically assess the emotional/physical impact of their actions towards animals, but choose to ignore it.

Animals have no choice but to kill for reasons other than survival.

Humans have the intelligence and evolutionary advantage of moving beyond this primal stage.

But we use the primary drive as a convenient excuse whenever it suits, and reject it whenever it becomes embarrassing.

Blood sport is not about survival; it is a game mimicking the forces of nature and man's perceived dominance over other animals. I am always pleased when the Matador is badly injured; here's nature getting back at man for a change, although in a forced scenario where the animal was never given the choice of opting out of the game because it simply cannot communicate. So it must kill to defend itself.

Blood sport is not an absolute necessity for the preservation of culture.

Humans would use any excuse to justify violent behaviour not necessitated by survival towards their fellow animals.

The whole Darwinist argument is outdated. Humans are surely ready to move beyond this point of evolution by now?
 
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The difference between humans and most other animals is that humans are able to critically assess the emotional/physical impact of their actions towards animals, but choose to ignore it.
Animals have no choice but to kill for reasons other than survival.

Humans have the intelligence and evolutionary advantage of moving beyond this primal stage.

But we use the primary drive as a convenient excuse whenever it suits, and reject it whenever it becomes embarrassing.

Blood sport is not about survival; it is a game mimicking the forces of nature and man's perceived dominance over other animals. I am always pleased when the Matador is badly injured; here's nature getting back at man for a change, although in a forced scenario where the animal was never given the choice of opting out of the game because it simply cannot communicate. So it must kill to defend itself.

Blood sport is not an absolute necessity for the preservation of culture.

Humans would use any excuse to justify violent behaviour not necessitated by survival towards their fellow animals.

The whole Darwinist argument is outdated. Humans are surely ready to move beyond this point of evolution by now?
I've got to be a jerk and ask how you can determine this with certainty.

Sapience, sentience, and intelligence, at least what we can observe of it/them, exist along a gradient that is independent of phylogeny. Dolphins, chimps, and elephants are clearly higher along this gradient than other life forms, yet they're still grouped generically as animals and still function generically as animals. They should be able to assess the impacts of their actions to a degree as well, but they still choose to act like animals and use violence auspiciously. Actually, I'll do it. All killing is about survival.

The act of moving beyond the primal stage is simply the evolutionary development of the primal stage. The game mimics the forces of nature because it's a part of nature; a subsystem within, bound by the synchronous determining rule put forth by the larger system. We can't move beyond ourselves.

"Humans would use any excuse to justify violent behaviour not necessitated by survival towards their fellow animals."

What you're essentially advocating with nonviolence is permastatic stability, which is impossible so long as uncertainty exists.
 

Polaris

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I've got to be a jerk and ask how you can determine this with certainty.

You are not a jerk for asking a perfectly legitimate question.

I would ask the same, and I do continuously do so.

This is why I said "most other animals" because I am indeed not certain; in fact, I am somewhat convinced most animals that are treated with respect and non-violence develop deeply loving relationships with their human counterparts.

Which is why my argument is against the idea of any kind of animal abuse, be it ritualistic (which has elements of respect, yes...but the animal nevertheless never had the choice to opt out, which is why I argue against it).

Sapience, sentience, and intelligence, at least what we can observe of it/them, exist along a gradient that is independent of phylogeny. Dolphins, chimps, and elephants are clearly higher along this gradient than other life forms, yet they're still grouped generically as animals and still function generically as animals. They should be able to assess the impacts of their actions to a degree as well, but they still choose to act like animals and use violence auspiciously. Actually, I'll do it. All killing is about survival.
I agree with the entire paragraph, except that last conclusion. All human killing is not necessitated by survival....but yes, in principle; and as an underlying current is that element of the struggle between species, which is yes; all about survival. This is why I see no reason to justify ritualistic or cultural killing any more; I find the whole concept outdated from an evolutionary perspective as we have already asserted our perceived (and largely factual) dominance over other animals. Yet, we continue to abuse fellow animals beyond the limits of necessity (and I guess this is where we enter the realm of personal morals where we could argue that there are no inherent morals and therefore there is no impetus to change behaviour. However I choose to argue the benefit of morals as it simply improves relationships and is thus a better foundation for a well-oiled social machinery). Respect breeds respect; violence breeds fear. Do we need fear as a driver?

The act of moving beyond the primal stage is simply the evolutionary development of the primal stage. The game mimics the forces of nature because it's a part of nature; a subsystem within, bound by the synchronous determining rule put forth by the larger system. We can't move beyond ourselves.
Well, I agree on the first part, in large. However I disagree that we cannot move beyond ourselves. Perhaps the majority of humans succcumb to this notion as it is too hard to change; and seeing as their sole efforts to change do not make a difference to the larger picture, they do opt out and succumb to the forces put forth by the larger system in the end.

As long as governments and larger institutions signal that this is the state of affairs; this separation between humans and nature, humans will continue to take this message in and believe in it.

But we can observe animals and humans living peacefully together where there is no competition for resources or shelter. My partner's cat, for example has an exceptionally loving and gentle nature as he decided not to separate the cat from the family like many other people do with their pets. Humans have this idea that animals should be separated from them. No wonder animals become wary and suspicious, depressed dogs barking in lonely backyards all day, and cats running away from their owners because they do not receive their basic requirements of food, shelter and affection.

"Humans would use any excuse to justify violent behaviour not necessitated by survival towards their fellow animals."

What you're essentially advocating with nonviolence is permastatic stability, which is impossible so long as uncertainty exists.
Of course permastatic stability is impossible. However, I think it is possible to find some sort of middle ground where we begin to understand that we are not separated from nature because we are human or different; we separate ourselves because we perceive nature/other species as a threat and as a resource. We do not actually need other animals as a resource because we have the ingenuity to find alternatives.

It is possible to have a society evolving technologically and intelligently without resorting to this kind of alien fear. It is what I consider an evolutionary step forward; to realise we as humans have the potential to change the forces of the larger system by integration, not separation. Of course, uncertainty will always be an underlying driver of fear, but we do in large, create that fear in our minds. We are too frightened of radical change; it does not suit the human psyche. But it is not impossible.
 

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Natural violence is ... well natural. It is not manipulated by humans. Bloodsport is deliberate violence. Do we want to promote this as a side-effect of having fun?
 

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I somewhat regret posting my last response as I was in a state where my awarness and critical thought were almost dormant.

I like how it met with a more serious response and this allows me to reply in a more controlled manner.

(But it is probably worth it. I'm more lucid now than I've been in quite some time).
Definitely, it provides interesting points and a different perspective.

Through risk assessment and perception in general. A more tangible-ish psychological example might be the economic crash (spending is the result of behavior, which is tangible vs an experience, though in experiential terms we're probably going into the territory of mood and cognition; Kraepelin waves).
Yes so we both agree that psychology can lead to both efficient and inefficient behaviours.
During a period of relatively high income and high employment, consumers and governments (foxes, red and gray, if you will)
I adore gray foxes :).
chose to take on large amounts of debt (habitat), convinced that they could continue to work and produce at those levels. In other words, overestimating their future efficiency, and overestimating the future value of their current assets. The rabbits (houses) were fat and plentiful. Why wouldn't it always be that way?
This is an interesting allegory to think of.

The overestimation in your example can be extended to a general situation that consumers felt safe enough to believe their growth will be maintained or even faster. Which was used by the government to boost their confidence even more. Government cannot control itself when its actions result in increasing the flow of cash.
Also growth itself is dangerous, if you grow its easy to get used to and you can forget that every growth is followed by a peak and shrinking.
Very few economies in the world prepared for the shrinking.
What's funny is that some economies that really didn't commit to growth were spared, but during the growth period were considered slow. Ex:Poland.

China in my view is a good example of economy that is preparing for the peak. If they develop their internal market there is a chance they will avoid stalling, they may have better internal growth but negative external growth and vice versa.
And then the rabbits went through a tularemia epidemic. :D Our ability to obtain financing (habitat) declined, which reduced our ability to hunt rabbits/buy houses, and value was sucked out of our system by venerable little parasites (bankers).

Behavioral changes? More people attending college and putting off work. Employers downsizing to save their businesses. Changes in spending and travel patterns (Say... less prime rib at a restaurant, more McDonald's. Less vacations, more staycations). Changes in work habits (fewer individuals working more hours at a lower hourly wage). And countless other reverberations.
Good example of "over the top" economy, one of the interesting general psychological/behavioral changes you can see is that people get used to their current standard.
If they have grown 100% in 10 years, when they are reduced to 80% this is a catastrophe, they cannot even relate to the times when they could afford even less.
How does violence lead to excess violence? (My thoughts immediately center on things like "nationbuilding" breeding terrorists, a la Al Qaeda, but I want to know how you're treating violence as a physical-ish thing when it's the result of anger, a very ubiquitous and nonphysical thing that apparently disperses relatively quickly). I understand that the rate of violent behavior may escalate, but not the amount of violence. (Don't you just love qualia?)
Well i think my comments on your description on growth pretty much explain why when you adapt violence or agression as a strategy of growing and you succeed, you reach a peak, there is then excess of agression that contributes to no more growth in your strategy.
I think the key depends on context and meaning. A gang shooting is liable to piss off multiple individuals willing to return the favor perhaps tenfold. It's unexpected from the perspective of the victim and peers. But gladiatorial combat isn't. The eventual outcome is clear and expected, and behavior of both participants and observers changes accordingly.
I am willing to support that human should be given full control of himself, this means reducing govt control etc.
If there would be laws that condemn criminals to gladiatorial combat instead of rotting 300 years in prison or getting electric-chaired it places less burden on the rest of the society, they don't need to feed as many people that will never return to their society because of the things they did aware of the consequences.

I am generally disagreeing with imprisonment, this is by no means a viable way to resocialise. I would promote any solution that helps the unlawful learn something useful and contribute instead of decaying. This obviously if the convicted was willing to resocialise, I don't support any solution that violates his freedom of choice. Even if the other option was gladiatorial combat, he/she might like it, who knows:p.
Whoa whoa whoa! Cognitive Dissonance! :D

Don't let the username fool you. I'm a systems guy/addict. All systems run on inputs and outputs with complex mechanisms inbetween (and "input" and "output" are also arbitrary isolational labels depending on direction). I use examples from ecology because it represents a macrosystem with maximum potential interaction density; all the complexities of physics, psychology and philosophy; agency + engineering.
You describe the system as it currently stands, however there are far more possibilities to be selected as we reach more abundance.
I don't agree that you can exemplify every human aspect in a natural macrosystem.
There's no such thing as an increase in freedom, which is a constant for every agent, just a shift in the awareness of freedom through perception.

Your example of nonviolence is actually a striking example of successful violence. :D

Oaks are fire-dependent species. They grow best in open space created by destruction (fire, windfall, and occasionally flooding) in a position to secure sunlight. They must outdo entire suites of competing flora, or they will die. Many, many, many, many oaks are starved for sunlight and die. In fact they aid in the creation of this destruction, by building up layers of dead fuelwood in mature forests and periodically covering the ground in slow-decomposing, lignin-rich leaves. By the time they reach the "peace and abundance" stage, they've killed off everything in their understory that isn't shade-tolerant, eliminating competition for soil nutrients and water.

Plants wage war and kill, like all forms of life, they just do it very slowly. Examples of known mechanisms include:
"majority of the trees will find balanced distance between each other to maintain growth."
I am aware of this evolutionary warfare.
Violence/non-violence are on two sides of the spectrum, what I was trying to portray in the plant example was bringing violence as close to 0 in relation to itself.

It is a rather anarchist postulate, I don't see any healthier example of society than a self governing and self organising one.
The greatest example of coercion will most likely be when humans reach the limit of population on earth.
I consider very high density as a natural enviroment to spark a conflict for creating more space for yourself at the expense of the rest.

In a less dense societies individual could be given enough freedom to allow himself a standard of needs. By dense i not only mean area, it can be any basic commodity.

My example of restricting freedom to allow freedom shows a difference between the value you place on individual freedom. You either value a few individuals with unlimited freedom or a larger group of beings that limit themselves.
Most of our evolution takes place up here *points at head* and socially. Flynn Effect.
Altruism depends on the existence of an unachievable critical mass of altruists. The presence of even a single selfish individual can throw the whole thing out of whack. Check out the spoiler in this post. Altruism is simply a different manifestation of selfishness in which actions are undertaken with the expectation of future reciprocity. "You owe me." Some form of return is expected for service. Even Gandhi was nobody's bitch.

The key to systemic stability is that no pure altruists or pure selfish individuals exist. Each individual behaves altruistically or selfishly towards different things in different circumstances. Equilibrium is achieved when "things" (physical, social, psychological, ideological) are exchanged between individuals for different "things."
Quite right, in my previous post i was giving examples of the unachievable for now end of spectrum. This is similar to how you cannot achieve perfect lightness without expending unlimited energy etc.

Altruism/Anarchism or any non-systemic movement depends on spreading the awarness of the problem and slowly building up the awarness of the individuals.
One of the great things about it is that it relies on free will and choice between policies rather than on violent form of vanguardism and overthrowing.
In its approach to creating the ideas it relies on values that stay true to itself.
I do not find it unachievable to create a majority of individuals aware of the systemic choice before them and selecting the limit-coercion option.

You assume that there would have to be 100% of like-minded individuals in a society to maintain it.
I do not assume that this society would rely solely on self-controlling methods.

The idea of self organising begins with an individual that has a certain range of freedoms. This individual has his private space, this is where he can act as long as his actions relate only to himself and to his private space.

There is also a public space, an individual leaves his private space and agrees on the rules of the majority. He can interact with other willing individuals as long as he does not violate their private space.

If there would be a person that doesn't respect idea of basic freedom, there would be also aware individuals that act in order to prevent violation of this privacy. Simply they organise themselves and limit actions of the agressive to the point where he can only act in his private space. If this individual violates the will of the majority he is unable to act in a public space. But it doesn't restrict general privacy given everyone.

This shows how there can be agression used to control over-agression.

So there are two aspects to be considered:
1. Use of agression to create freedom, strife for dominance is a general trend.
Free exist in non-agression and react with agression to maintain freedom.
Desired increase in freedom is achieved through agression.

This model views free as having roots connected to every subject aspect of enviroment that provide great freedom to a small amount of trees.

2.Use of non-agression to create freedom, strife for non-dominance is general.
Not-free exist in non-agression and react with agression to maintain freedom.
Desired increase in freedom is achieved through non-agression.

This model shows free as having roots connect to independent aspects of enviroment. Limited freedom is provided to a larger number of plants.
I'm not saying that pain is necessary for knowing life (life can exist while effectively paralyzed; bacteria lack nerve tissue, etc), but that pain is unavoidable, intrinsic, relative, and subjective. Pain is thus inflicted equally upon all individuals. I think I said this earlier, but in a world without broken legs, mosquito bites hurt more. The basic example/demonstration is light vs darkness. One cannot exist without bringing the other into existence. How can we know what darkness is without light to contrast it against? The same applies to pain and pleasure. This is demonstrated by tolerance, which works in both directions. The first time you fall and skin a knee hurts a lot more than the dozenth time. Your first orgasm feels a lot more extreme than it does after you've been whacking the weasel twice daily for 5 years.
Pain is unimportant in this discussion. I dont know why I even started to consider this as an aspect in the first place:confused:.
All life forms do exactly that same thing. The plant deems itself more worthy than the water, sunlight, and nutrients it absorbs. The mouse doesn't give a shit about the life within the seeds it devours. The hawk doesn't care for the 6th mouse of the day that it crushes in its talons. "Life feeds on life"
Man can indeed place himself above all else, but that doesn't make it true. Man preys upon himself, and disintegrates into a microbial cesspool upon death. Bodies are empty shells.
Certain parts of enviroment are shared. Non-living matter is considered inferior to life. Life takes posession of matter as from the point of view of matter there is no value in this action. Also from the point of view of life there is value in matter as a requirement for life. Life is viewed as matter and beyond, matter actively interacting with matter.

As for animals, they may not care they do not control their enviroment in relation to themselves.

As for humans, they indeed can and should care how many resources and how much of the enviroment is preserved to sustain growth.

Also you imply there is a constant chain of agression. However every agressive action allows for a period of non-agression, growth.

In your model you place no consideration for non-agression, as if there was simply agressive behaviour and survival. In fact non-agression is very similar to the idea of survival.

It proves to be a very interesting exchange, I think it comes down to the perception of limits in enviroment and yourself.

We can in fact see how achieving non-agression is a desired trend as growth and increase in complexity is a desired aspect of life.
Desired because is a result of action rather than means.
I am interested in how you view this idea of growth as non-agression.
 

BigApplePi

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Well you could say the same thing about gladiators.
Why don't we force people to stage against each other?
It surely has entertainment value for someone and it surely would be popular.
In the USA we do and it is very popular. We even give it a name. It's called, "football." For some reason there have been so many concussions due to the sport, that now civilization is calling attention to this to tone it down.
 
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Like... 2 days ago I had a response to this typed up and Bill Gates decided I needed an update. The pain and suffering those poor words underwent, being taken out of existence so soon...

:rip:

Zombie time. :D

@Polaris
You are not a jerk for asking a perfectly legitimate question.

I would ask the same, and I do continuously do so.

This is why I said "most other animals" because I am indeed not certain; in fact, I am somewhat convinced most animals that are treated with respect and non-violence develop deeply loving relationships with their human counterparts.

Which is why my argument is against the idea of any kind of animal abuse, be it ritualistic (which has elements of respect, yes...but the animal nevertheless never had the choice to opt out, which is why I argue against it).

I agree with the entire paragraph, except that last conclusion.
I was feeling jerky because that last conclusion was intended as bait.
free-MrBurnsExcellent.gif
Human killing is indistinguishable from animal killing, because both kill for the same reasons, including to cause pain and for pleasure. I personally find that Darwin resembles Freud in all the wrong ways, in terms of the reasons provided for biological and evolutionary mechanisms. Conventional attributions of violence rates don't match up with the sentience gradient. It's not likely that, like us, animals are aware of the reasons they supposedly kill. It's not unreasonable to assume, imho, that humans are unaware of potential higher level reasoning as well.

Infanticide, for example. Conventional biofreud says the dominant male kills to increase his breeding success and that females do it to reduce adult mortality. Yet the variety of species that do it (gorillas, chimps, lemurs, many other/nearly all primates, many rodents, housecats, lions, hippos, bears, wolves, hyenas, herring gulls, many songbird species, many insects, many fish, many amphibians) and their wide variation across the assumed sentience scale should indicate they're unable to comprehend these reasons. The obvious human allegory is abortion. Ultimately what's often happening is something that just happens to not be evolutionarily detrimental.

Even in a soft-deterministic universe, is there a choice?

Other case studies:
Chimps kill for land.

Freud/Darwin: They gain resources.
Human allegory: Iraq War for oil.

Housecats are sadistic mofos

Freudarwin: They're practicing their hunting skills, or their hunting instincts haven't been bred out of them.
Allegory: H. H. Holmes.

Orcas do the same thing

Freudarwin: Practice.
Allegory: Harpe brothers.

Elephants murder when they don't have positive role models

Freudarwin: Their hormones are raging and they're horny/showing off for females.
Allegory: Jeffrey Dahmer

Wild dogs make Ed Gein look like a girl scout when their domesticated prey can't or won't run away

Freudarwin: They're instinctually driven to build fat reserves?
Allegory: Boston bombing

Bears do too.

Freudarwin: Fat reserves.
Allegory: Unabomber

Dolphins kill porpoises for no apparent reason

Freudarwin: Interspecific competition?
Allegory: Anders Breivik
Many species are also apparently interspecifically altruistic as well.
This is why I see no reason to justify ritualistic or cultural killing any more; I find the whole concept outdated from an evolutionary perspective as we have already asserted our perceived (and largely factual) dominance over other animals.
In evolutionary terms, it doesn't need to be beneficial, it just can't be detrimental.
Yet, we continue to abuse fellow animals beyond the limits of necessity (and I guess this is where we enter the realm of personal morals where we could argue that there are no inherent morals and therefore there is no impetus to change behaviour. However I choose to argue the benefit of morals as it simply improves relationships and is thus a better foundation for a well-oiled social machinery). Respect breeds respect; violence breeds fear. Do we need fear as a driver?
Morals are interesting in that something can be right and wrong simultaneously. Murder. At the individual level, perfectly acceptable for some, completely unacceptable for others, circumstantial in general, and largely a perception-based phenomenon. Above the individual level of decision-making it turns into a yes, because it can happen and not directly affect any given individual. You, me and Bob are in a room (you and Bob are on good terms) and Bob kills me because I did something unforgiveable to him. You're still kicking. This phenomenon becomes more pronounced the larger the scale becomes (because that entails more diverse and directly opposing perspectives within. Just ask Gaza).

And yes. Yes we do. :D
Well, I agree on the first part, in large. However I disagree that we cannot move beyond ourselves. Perhaps the majority of humans succumb to this notion as it is too hard to change; and seeing as their sole efforts to change do not make a difference to the larger picture, they do opt out and succumb to the forces put forth by the larger system in the end.
I don't actually disagree. It depends how you define yourself (My identity includes being a single human and the sum of my cells and consciousness as well as part of a vast amount of groups/labels/categories). One can at most become all of themselves. We can move past old parts and choose to homestead new areas within ourselves though.
As long as governments and larger institutions signal that this is the state of affairs; this separation between humans and nature, humans will continue to take this message in and believe in it.

But we can observe animals and humans living peacefully together where there is no competition for resources or shelter. My partner's cat, for example has an exceptionally loving and gentle nature as he decided not to separate the cat from the family like many other people do with their pets. Humans have this idea that animals should be separated from them. No wonder animals become wary and suspicious, depressed dogs barking in lonely backyards all day, and cats running away from their owners because they do not receive their basic requirements of food, shelter and affection.

"Humans would use any excuse to justify violent behaviour not necessitated by survival towards their fellow animals."
I agree that the separation is the problem. They are part of us, we of them, and we are violent.

They appear to be living peacefully, but I wouldn't want to be their resources. Even an indoor cat thrives on the violence of another species preparing its food.
Of course permastatic stability is impossible. However, I think it is possible to find some sort of middle ground where we begin to understand that we are not separated from nature because we are human or different; we separate ourselves because we perceive nature/other species as a threat and as a resource. We do not actually need other animals as a resource because we have the ingenuity to find alternatives.

It is possible to have a society evolving technologically and intelligently without resorting to this kind of alien fear. It is what I consider an evolutionary step forward; to realise we as humans have the potential to change the forces of the larger system by integration, not separation. Of course, uncertainty will always be an underlying driver of fear, but we do in large, create that fear in our minds. We are too frightened of radical change; it does not suit the human psyche. But it is not impossible.
I agree. It's just that I think we're already in that middle ground, albeit ignorant of it. Integration is a process of recognition (through the use of technology). Every alternative is violent assuming the resource used is alive (I personally believe that the entire universe is. :phear: Admittedly odd belief, as I'm guessing the step between your position and mine there is psychedelic hippie).
Natural violence is ... well natural. It is not manipulated by humans. Bloodsport is deliberate violence. Do we want to promote this as a side-effect of having fun?
Natural violence is also deliberate. Any hunting strategy is. Lions are a convenient and reasonably complex example.
raw
 
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The doctor amazes me every time.:)
I constantly amaze me too. :eek: :phear: :D :cat: :kodama1:
I somewhat regret posting my last response as I was in a state where my awarness and critical thought were almost dormant.

I know the feeling. Actually was the same for about 3-4 months up until ~a week ago. :elephant:

I like how it met with a more serious response and this allows me to reply in a more controlled manner.

This one's going to have a more playful (and colorful :D) yet equally serious overtone. Some pruning as well. Because it's huge. If I cut it out, assume I agree with it.

Beer. Wonderfully complex tasting, perception-enhancing, surgeon general-defying, dopamine-increasing beer. :worship:

I think a good pre-emptive statement/exercise is to consider that nonviolence doesn't exist, only two types of violence: direct and indirect, or, linear and nonlinear.
Yes so we both agree that psychology can lead to both efficient and inefficient behaviours.

I wouldn't call it efficient vs inefficient, but efficient in different ways. Linear and nonlinear.

I adore gray foxes :).

Me too. Tree climbing rabies vectors they are.

This is an interesting allegory to think of.

The overestimation in your example can be extended

Exactly. Iceland ftw.

China in my view is a good example of economy that is preparing for the peak. If they develop their internal market there is a chance they will avoid stalling, they may have better internal growth but negative external growth and vice versa.

I don't know enough about China, but the U.S. national debt alone should favor them tremendously.

Good example of "over the top" economy, one of the interesting general psychological/behavioral changes you can see is that people get used to their current standard.

This, and it takes time for them to become accustomed to a new standard. In ecology this is demonstrated by "trap-happiness" and trap-shyness." When traps are first placed in an area, they get noticed and are avoided for several days, so they're baited but not set, allowing the animal to come in and take the bait freely. After a few days the traps are set, and the animals are effectively captured. If the study is catch and release, the effects of trapping and handling on the animals become less pronounced with every capture, and soon they begin to willingly seek out traps because of the bait to get a free meal.

This applies to humans too, at the individual and higher levels. It explains how radical political ideologies persist.


Well i think my comments on your description on growth pretty much explain why when you adapt violence or agression as a strategy of growing and you succeed, you reach a peak, there is then excess of agression that contributes to no more growth in your strategy.

Ah, but consider who eats who. Cannibalism (violent individuals committing violence against violent individuals) eliminates the excess, and makes it a stable process.

I am willing to support that human should be given full control of himself, this means reducing govt control etc.

Not necessarily. An individual still retains agency regardless of the overarching power structure. There's always a choice.

If there would be laws that condemn criminals to gladiatorial combat instead of rotting 300 years in prison or getting electric-chaired it places less burden on the rest of the society, they don't need to feed as many people that will never return to their society because of the things they did aware of the consequences.

Another large part of the problem is the punishment of nonviolent offenders. If prison were reserved for violent offenders, we wouldn't have many problems. But most of the prison population consists of drug offenders, etc.

I am generally disagreeing with imprisonment, this is by no means a viable way to resocialise. I would promote any solution that helps the unlawful learn something useful and contribute instead of decaying. This obviously if the convicted was willing to resocialise, I don't support any solution that violates his freedom of choice. Even if the other option was gladiatorial combat, he/she might like it, who knows:p.

Yes!!!
You describe the system as it currently stands, however there are far more possibilities to be selected as we reach more abundance.
I don't agree that you can exemplify every human aspect in a natural macrosystem.

Try me. :D All systems follow the same structural rules. Everything, quite literally, is a system. People opine about the awesomeness and generalizability of physics. If they'd only replace "physics" with "systems," they'd be right.

Something you should be aware of is
agent-based modeling.

I am aware of this evolutionary warfare.
Violence/non-violence are on two sides of the spectrum, what I was trying to portray in the plant example was bringing violence as close to 0 in relation to itself.

As close to 0 as possible isn't 0. :angel: Violence follows the rules of source sink dynamics. Nonlinear/indirect violence must build up in a sink before it is expressed all at once. Oaks casually build up dead fuelwood in the forest understory until, all at once in conjunction with an external catalyst, it triggers a wildfire and destroys the oak's competition.

It is a rather anarchist postulate, I don't see any healthier example of society than a self governing and self organising one.
The greatest example of coercion will most likely be when humans reach the limit of population on earth.

Coercion is intrinsic to a deterministic universe (which includes soft determinism/compatibilism). There's this really cool concept related to the Heisenberg Principle called Reciprocal Causality. Every choice made by an agent restricts the potential choices that agent can make in the future. If you buy a cherry pie and eat it all today, you cannot eat it tomorrow. Neither can anyone else. If you're alive and not dismembered, standing in Ghana, you can't be in Yugoslavia at the same time. Nonaggression and aggression both impact the self and others according to this general principle.

I consider very high density as a natural enviroment to spark a conflict for creating more space for yourself at the expense of the rest.

In a less dense societies individual could be given enough freedom to allow himself a standard of needs. By dense i not only mean area, it can be any basic commodity.

In systems terms, this is addressed by entropy. Example: Violence is higher in cities and lower in rural areas. Concentrated violence is a means to attempt to homogenize violence throughout society through the migration of individuals. People avoid pain to the best of their ability like it's the plague. However, entropy has an opposite. The total amount of violent expression remains stable.

Just like gold. It exists in very concentrated areas. Mining it, moving it, and transforming it into jewelry doesn't change the total amount of gold that exists.


My example of restricting freedom to allow freedom shows a difference between the value you place on individual freedom. You either value a few individuals with unlimited freedom or a larger group of beings that limit themselves.

Reciprocal causality should have addressed this, but I'll clarify if needed. All individuals have equal agency potential, though not all individuals recognize their potential. An example of the latter is adherence to social norms, mores, and taboos.

Quite right, in my previous post i was giving examples of the unachievable for now end of spectrum. This is similar to how you cannot achieve perfect lightness without expending unlimited energy etc.

Altruism/Anarchism or any non-systemic movement depends on spreading the awarness of the problem and slowly building up the awarness of the individuals.

The awareness sort of spreads itself, actually. :D

One of the great things about it is that it relies on free will and choice between policies rather than on violent form of vanguardism and overthrowing.

Unless or until they choose violence. ;)

In its approach to creating the ideas it relies on values that stay true to itself.
I do not find it unachievable to create a majority of individuals aware of the systemic choice before them and selecting the limit-coercion option.

You assume that there would have to be 100% of like-minded individuals in a society to maintain it.
I do not assume that this society would rely solely on self-controlling methods.

The idea of self organising begins with an individual that has a certain range of freedoms. This individual has his private space, this is where he can act as long as his actions relate only to himself and to his private space.

There is also a public space, an individual leaves his private space and agrees on the rules of the majority. He can interact with other willing individuals as long as he does not violate their private space.

If there would be a person that doesn't respect idea of basic freedom, there would be also aware individuals that act in order to prevent violation of this privacy. Simply they organise themselves and limit actions of the agressive to the point where he can only act in his private space. If this individual violates the will of the majority he is unable to act in a public space. But it doesn't restrict general privacy given everyone.

This shows how there can be agression used to control over-agression.

Good. Now, apply reciprocal causality to the previous idea of a choice hierarchy wherein things are exchanged for different things between individuals according to the different and ever-changing agent-based priorities of each individual using this example in the spoiler. The spoiler example uses just one resource, but we must now consider multiple resources simultaneously. All individuals must use resources. Or they die. Given every individual's capacity for violence, violence can be staved off in one individual through substitution of one resource with another. But that substitution reduces the availability of that resource to other individuals. Choice is influenced by both internal desire and intrinsic ability (product of a linear mechanism), and availability (product of a nonlinear mechanism). Even with a supermajority of altruists, the choices of those not in that supermajority will reverberate through the entire system (this is actually what prevents even a majority from forming). Not all resources are equal.

Not even a supermajority of altruists can prevent systemic violence. Pure altruism ironically depends on genocide, whether traditional genocide or genocide through resource-domineering.

Also, following the rules of the majority does not equate to agreeing to the rules of the majority.


So there are two aspects to be considered:
1. Use of agression to create freedom, strife for dominance is a general trend.
Free exist in non-agression and react with agression to maintain freedom.
Desired increase in freedom is achieved through agression.

This model views free as having roots connected to every subject aspect of enviroment that provide great freedom to a small amount of trees.

2.Use of non-agression to create freedom, strife for non-dominance is general.
Not-free exist in non-agression and react with agression to maintain freedom.
Desired increase in freedom is achieved through non-agression.

This model shows free as having roots connect to independent aspects of enviroment. Limited freedom is provided to a larger number of plants.

The last example should have addressed this stuff. Remember direct (linear) vs indirect (nonlinear).

Pain is unimportant in this discussion. I dont know why I even started to consider this as an aspect in the first place:confused:.
But, it does still apply in the sense of equal and opposite forces. Violence vs "nonviolence" = direct and indirect in the same way that pain and pleasure are both nerve impulses that utilize the same structure.

Certain parts of enviroment are shared. Non-living matter is considered inferior to life. Life takes posession of matter as from the point of view of matter there is no value in this action. Also from the point of view of life there is value in matter as a requirement for life. Life is viewed as matter and beyond, matter actively interacting with matter.

And that sharing is exactly what perpetuates violence. :storks: I have no idea why "nonliving" matter would be considered inferior to life, considering that life is composed of it. They need each other. How can there be no value in it when survival and existence depends on it? What would matter do without life (remember, entropy has an opposite)? Consider "life" to be ubiquitous throughout the universe and exist along a sentience gradient that extends from the most elementary subatomic particle through humanity. Viruses make a nice center point.

As for animals, they may not care they do not control their enviroment in relation to themselves.

As for humans, they indeed can and should care how many resources and how much of the enviroment is preserved to sustain growth.

The sentience/perception gradient applies here too. Objective reality exists, but we can only perceive a portion of it. That portion increases along the gradient, but it never reaches the point of omniscience. Humans are more aware, but we still routinely destroy and continue to do so until we reach the point where the currently fashionable method of destruction threatens our continued existence. And then we change our method and destroy in a slightly different manner.

Also you imply there is a constant chain of agression. However every agressive action allows for a period of non-agression, growth.

In your model you place no consideration for non-agression, as if there was simply agressive behaviour and survival. In fact non-agression is very similar to the idea of survival.

This actually is addressed in the NetLogo model. The currency in the model is invisible. Altruists survive by sharing it, aggressors survive by stealing it. An aggressor stealing from an aggressor allows an altruist to share. The problem is who they share with. If they're truly altruistic, they'll share with aggressors, causing their own demise. If they share only with other altruists, they're being indirectly aggressive through resource exclusion.

It proves to be a very interesting exchange, I think it comes down to the perception of limits in enviroment and yourself.

Indeed. Wait until you apply Perceptual Control Theory. :D :D :D

We can in fact see how achieving non-agression is a desired trend as growth and increase in complexity is a desired aspect of life.
Desired because is a result of action rather than means.
I am interested in how you view this idea of growth as non-agression.

It's only desired because it is also aggression. :king-twitter:
*Will return to check spoilers, colors, and quoting. Right now I need to pee. :eek:

Done. :smiley_emoticons_mr
 

~~~

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@Polaris
I find your reasoning persuasive. I do neutralise annoying fruit flies though. Is this justifiable?
 

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Lets use colours. I will give you your purple and I will take blue. Izz that acceptable?
I wouldn't call it efficient vs inefficient, but efficient in different ways. Linear and nonlinear.
Don't you agree that there are generally inefficient social behaviours? Like for example many convenances that were mentioned in the taboo section. I know that inefficiency can be called non-linear because we cannot clearly estimate the benefits, so I would call it non-linear when we look at a unit while stating its inefficiency in general spectrum.

This, and it takes time for them to become accustomed to a new standard. In ecology this is demonstrated by "trap-happiness" and trap-shyness." When traps are first placed in an area, they get noticed and are avoided for several days, so they're baited but not set, allowing the animal to come in and take the bait freely. After a few days the traps are set, and the animals are effectively captured. If the study is catch and release, the effects of trapping and handling on the animals become less pronounced with every capture, and soon they begin to willingly seek out traps because of the bait to get a free meal.
Willingly seeking out traps reminds me of welfare. Do you think that traps are designed in such a way not to kill but rather preserve poor beings until the poacher/hunter comes to check out?

This applies to humans too, at the individual and higher levels. It explains how radical political ideologies persist.
Oh this applies more to humans than to animals. Animals can rip their body parts to get free when they are afraid. Humans mostly fear the possible damage more than their current ordeal.

Ah, but consider who eats who. Cannibalism (violent individuals committing violence against violent individuals) eliminates the excess, and makes it a stable process.
So there would be two variables to the system? Violence in/out of tribe, Predator/Hunt value (just how many can catch you and profit)
Not necessarily. An individual still retains agency regardless of the overarching power structure. There's always a choice.
This reduces everything to the discussion about the area of the choice. If so, I would propose that every individual should be aware of every choice he/she/it could make. Full "moral driver seat"

Another large part of the problem is the punishment of nonviolent offenders. If prison were reserved for violent offenders, we wouldn't have many problems. But most of the prison population consists of drug offenders, etc.
Yes in most [high hdi] countries prisons are overcrowded and even criminals that elude the grasp pay taxes with their money, if they spend their money.
Not spending hard or easily earned money seems to be one of the govt concerns too. Taxes that further empower redundant structures that increase taxes.


There is always more interesting things to notice or add, this thread reminded me of an idea i had some two years ago. About designing a self governing entropy defying systems, if I post it some time later.
"End"
 
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Pyropyro

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@Polaris
I find your reasoning persuasive. I do neutralise annoying fruit flies though. Is this justifiable?

I prefer breeding them when I was in my Biology class. :D

Well I can't find any serious disease that fruit flies carry although their larva tend to make fruits unsuitable for eating. They do carry bacteria that may convert wine into vinegar though. So I guess it's legitimate to kill them since the action counts as protecting one's food and drink storage.
 

Polaris

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Exactly what is your point, Habi? Just because animals can be deliberately violent does not mean that humans shouldn't or couldn't change their current rate of violence towards animals. I mean...just trying to get back to the thread main topic which was about the justifications for or against bloodsports involving animals.

Edit: I want to come back to this thread as I have a lot more thoughts on the matter, but a little busy right now.

@~~~

It is funny, but one of the main reasons I decided to study science was exactly those annoying fruit flies. The introduction to genetics through the study of these little critters got me fired up.
 
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Exactly what is your point, Habi? Just because animals can be deliberately violent does not mean that humans shouldn't or couldn't change their current rate of violence towards animals.
Well, in the case of the vids:

1. Never give a chimp a weapon. :phear:

2. Violence is a phenomenon that transcends cognition.

I do generally agree, it's just that some forms of it can't go away.

What if lions became herbivores? Their predatory impact would merely be replaced by their competition and it wouldn't be long before they'd become prey themselves. Evolution will catch up to our nonviolent disposition.

In terms of other species, we can afford to take a break. Until the bacteria find a way around all of our antibiotics. :D
20th Century Fox Research Library?
Trusted source??? :eek:
Yes. Fox just holds the footage, they didn't record it (that was the BBC).
 

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Yes. Fox just holds the footage, they didn't record it (that was the BBC).

I don't know. Everything seems awfully staged.
I never ever heard that Idi Amin story.
The supposed AK-47 looks rather toyish, the sound doesn't match sonically.
A chimpanzee who has been exposed to gunfire would probably instinctively drop the thing and run off into the bushes.

5 seconds later...
got you:
http://www.thesmokingjacket.com/entertainment/idi-amin-chimps
viral marketing campaign.

an exercise in deception?
 

Pyropyro

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an exercise in deception?
The AK video does look staged, but you can see smoke coming from the barrel of the gun (there's a technical name for this, but I can't remember it). I wouldn't expect a chimp to run though, if it had been raised by the soldiers.

And thesmokingjacket doesn't actually refute the contents of the footage, just how the footage is used.
 

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The AK video does look stage, but you can see smoke coming from the barrel of the gun (there's a technical name for this, but I can't remember it). I wouldn't expect a chimp to run though, if it had been raised by the soldiers.

And thesmokingjacket doesn't actually refute the contents of the footage, just how the footage is used.

These effects are perfectly attainable by current SFX technology.
Sound department must have been lazy though.
The footage clearly is fictional in nature,
designed to baffle minds (part of the viral marketing alchemy).
Of course, my source will pretend to swallow this footage as real,
after all he/she is in the entertainment/gossip circus...
But the valuable detail that is revealed is that it is footage in relation to an upcoming movie called Rise of the Planet of the Apes.
Case closed.

The whole racist notion which i picked up, but did not want to accuse you of is further discussed here:
http://gigaom.com/2011/07/11/planet-of-the-apes-viral-video/
 
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Lets use colours. I will give you your purple and I will take blue. Izz that acceptable?
No. Because I'm not drunk anymore. Or yet. :p
I'm going green. :twisteddevil:
Don't you agree that there are generally inefficient social behaviours? Like for example many convenances that were mentioned in the taboo section. I know that inefficiency can be called non-linear because we cannot clearly estimate the benefits, so I would call it non-linear when we look at a unit while stating its inefficiency in general spectrum.
The key to efficiency lies in intent. Doing one thing may be an efficient means to accomplish some goals, yet extraordinarily inefficient at accomplishing others. And well... people have multiple goals; plenty of wants, needs, and desires that can't all be fulfilled. For example, participating in the rat race may enable one to retire comfortably, but at an age when they're physically unable to do the things they've dreamed of doing their whole lives. Individuals who've achieved "balance" tend to restrict themselves to a bubble and not push boundaries.

These processes are what game theory really broke open.

Side note: *that feeling you get the moment when you reach for your beer, but the bottle is empty* :slashnew:

Willingly seeking out traps reminds me of welfare. Do you think that traps are designed in such a way not to kill but rather preserve poor beings until the poacher/hunter comes to check out?
Sometimes the purpose of trapping isn't to kill though. (In my case (trapping squirrels) I just wanted to measure their testicles and inject a PIT tag under the skin of their rump.) The reason why, is because the trapper (not always a hunter; sometimes a researcher) knows that their quarry plays an important role that isn't easily replaced. The goal of trapping is to monitor the status of that role (role can = piece of a machine).
Oh this applies more to humans than to animals. Animals can rip their body parts to get free when they are afraid. Humans mostly fear the possible damage more than their current ordeal.
Most humans delude themselves... to the point where expressing their animalistic instincts is incompatible with a society built on a foundation of deferred gratification. But we still possess our animalistic capacity. PTSD is a good example. Western society built on deferred gratification (which includes economic systems like capitalism) experiences PTSD symptoms more frequently than the war torn third world.
So there would be two variables to the system? Violence in/out of tribe, Predator/Hunt value (just how many can catch you and profit)

Yes. Sort of. :D

This reduces everything to the discussion about the area of the choice. If so, I would propose that every individual should be aware of every choice he/she/it could make. Full "moral driver seat"
You're proposing the impossible. But we can make gains on the impossible with the rise of hypermodernism and technologies like the internet. This will create problems, initially, because more advanced ideas are also more complex ideas and less easily grasped ideas. A more plebian ideology would be expected to become more popular than the "correct" ideology which would eventually subsume it, but not before plenty of bloodshed.

Today's doomsday preppers are doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons (aliens, nuclear warfare, natural disasters).

Yes in most [high hdi] countries prisons are overcrowded and even criminals that elude the grasp pay taxes with their money, if they spend their money.
Not spending hard or easily earned money seems to be one of the govt concerns too. Taxes that further empower redundant structures that increase taxes.

There is always more interesting things to notice or add, this thread reminded me of an idea i had some two years ago. About designing a self governing entropy defying systems, if I post it some time later.
There was a prison built within 10 miles of my house in 2008. It's already full. They're building another larger one right now 12 miles away, and my state has been running up debt the entire time because they're unable to pay pensions for state employees (security guards).

*scrunches up his face in interest* Please post that, if you haven't already.
These effects are perfectly attainable by current SFX technology.
Sound department must have been lazy though.
The footage clearly is fictional in nature,
designed to baffle minds (part of the viral marketing alchemy).
Of course, my source will pretend to swallow this footage as real,
after all he/she is in the entertainment/gossip circus...
But the valuable detail that is revealed is that it is footage in relation to an upcoming movie called Rise of the Planet of the Apes.
Case closed.

The whole racist notion which i picked up, but did not want to accuse you of is further discussed here:
http://gigaom.com/2011/07/11/planet-of-the-apes-viral-video/
You're closing a case that I'm not making. :p

The footage itself was real. A chimp wielding a machete and pulling a trigger on an AK (shooting blanks is my guess here). This is what I was cuing in on. They taught them to do these things for the purpose of advertisement, sure. But my point is that they aren't cognisant of what they're doing, essentially unaware of their violence. They're waiting for their treat as soon as the camera is turned off. They can learn things and break the arbitrary boundary between man and animals.

Freudarwin would be hyping the idea of chimp armies in the Congo and calling for a pre-emptive strike against bonobos and an embargo against capuchins.
 
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