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Religion vs Philosophy?

Reluctantly

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Was thinking about how religion tends to provide answers, whereas philosophy tends to provide questions in place of answers, and how that's conflicted with a lot of religions. For example, Satan in Christianity is often depicted as having a philosophic mindset, as if philosophers are a threat to the religion. Satan is often depicted as putting into question what people are told to believe or think. The solution given is sometimes given to ignore him.

anyway, I don't think this thread has been made before and I'm very interested in the parallels between the two from people that know a lot more than I do about religion.
 

Vrecknidj

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There's really no substitute for complete immersion. May I recommend Jung's An Answer to Job? In order to understand that rather short book, you'll need to spend a great deal of time researching other material. He explores vast expanses of religion, philosophy, literature, mythology, psychology and more in that short piece.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Your premise is false,
religion can not function without philosophy.
Also, your premise is false in the regard that philosophy seeks answers and poses the questions,
in contrary it already knows the answers to the questions that it is about to ask.
Satanism is nothing else but shitty philosophy.
It captures the simple minds of those which have not yet had the audacity and privilege to experience the vast territories of thought.
If you can find a bunch of people to erect this as a monument, you have my (financial and ideological) support.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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And, you should look into iblis in islam and asmodeus in judaism to get the full picture.
You know, i think we should put forward a science that analyzes the Abrahamic religions in relation to each other instead of studying each one seperated.
That's the only way forward.
 

onesteptwostep

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I tend to think that religion is in general a subset of philosophy and not the other way around. But in general though. For the most part, I think questions lend to the creation of most religions.

I don't think Satan depicted in Christianity isn't really 'philosophical' either, it merely uses philosophy to gain power, influence, and ultimately discord. If anything the entity between God and Satan becomes philosophical, e.g. Job goes on a philosophical tirade in his book, same with Jonah and most 'prophets' in the bible. Satan forcefully disintegrates trust built within two parties, and it's often the case that knowledge in the absence of trust, builds suspicion, segregation, and ultimately strife. I think it's more fair to say that Satan in Christianity is an entity which erodes trust between God and humanity.

In Eastern Orthodoxy I've read that the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was planned to give to Adam in the first place. God had merely said he shouldn't eat from the tree because Adam, just created, was a spiritual infant- he couldn't digest the fruit from the tree yet. From how I interpret it, the level of trust wasn't high enough between God and Adam for Adam to eat from the tree, and Satan broke that trust. But it puts in question what the role of the Tree of Life was. Maybe after the trust between God and Adam was high enough, he was able to eat from the Tree of Life, and then from the Tree of Knowledge also? Who knows. Maybe it's the marshmallow experiment done on a cosmic level, with greater reward/lack of it.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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I don't think Satan depicted in Christianity isn't really 'philosophical' though, it merely uses philosophy to gain power, influence, and ultimately discord.

Yes, that's exactly the case in my view, because christianity drew a lot from platonism and neo-platonism, as the main force, but in general they preserved classical greek in their canon because that was the newest fad in capadocia and everywhere else.
It's an interesting investigation to find out where the inverted cross that is often used by unilluminated satanists actually comes about, and that is the largely cencored story of peter.
He chose to be crucified in reverse because the "church" (the cannibal parasite that infested the message of the christ of nazareth) implemented false doctrines.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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The other main influence was eastern philosophy in the form of zoroastrianism.
And, well, call me crazy, but in my view, you can't do too much wrong in your life if you follow either philosophy.
Best is study Judaism, Christianity and Islam and view it as a WHOLE.
Then all grudges disappear.
Then study Hinduism and Buddhism.
All grudges against them will disappear.
Understanding is the key (GOD, the creator of the perfect universe), not ignorance (SATAN, the disobedient one, the first of the nephilim, ibliss, prometheus).
 

Reluctantly

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There's really no substitute for complete immersion. May I recommend Jung's An Answer to Job? In order to understand that rather short book, you'll need to spend a great deal of time researching other material. He explores vast expanses of religion, philosophy, literature, mythology, psychology and more in that short piece.

Alright, I'll read it then. Have any recommendations for the other material?
 

Cognisant

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Philosophy is a discipline, it's the examination of perceptual biases and the legitimacy of concepts, a philosopher knows better than to go looking for universal truth and instead focuses on answering specific questions after all how could you possibly deduce the meaning of life when you don't even know what "life" and "meaning" are?

Religion is the absence of discipline, people choosing to believe in an imaginary friend that conveniently agrees with everything they want believe, "good people" (believers especially) go to an eternal paradise after death, the ultimate arbiter of the universe agrees the homosexuality is disgusting, and the devil is one of those philosophical types because of course he is.

Religious people care deeply about whether or not you agree with them because your disagreement challenges their dearly held delusions, on the other hand philosophers don't really care if you agree with them, they're interested when you disagree with them because they want to know why.
 

Seteleechete

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My view on philosophy is; if you can find an answer instead of just opinions it isn't a philosophical question anymore. If it has an answer it is a scientific question. Religion tries to impose answers on philosophical questions in order to sway people to their opinion of what the answer to the unanswerable question is.

Philosophical questions can turn into scientific once if enough data is collected though.
 

Cognisant

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My view on philosophy is; if you can find an answer instead of just opinions it isn't a philosophical question anymore. If it has an answer it is a scientific question.
Interesting, so if we take a hither to philosophical notion like "It's impossible to prove a negative" (mathematicians get lost that's not what it means and you know it) you would say that it's scientific since it's provably true via a thought experiment.

E.g. Prove unicorns don't exist. Assuming we have a definition for "unicorn" and that definition is not somehow internally inconsistent then short of being omniscient it's impossible to rule out the possibility of there being a unicorn somewhere.

I dunno, it's not wrong but I think calling that science kind of robs philosophy of its worth.
 

Seteleechete

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Whether unicorns exist is no philosophical question, it is very much a scientific one. At the moment our observations and evidence concludes no, unicorns do not exist. If evidence to the contrary is given that conclusion has to be changed. We can also make the scientific statement that unicorns somewhere might exist since we do not know everything. Evidence for and against their existence is presented and that evidence points to "based on what we know unicorns do not exist"

As you see I can give a clear answer to these statements unlike something like "what is the meaning of life" which is a philosophical question without any clear answer.

"It is impossible to prove a negative" is no philosophical question it is a statement of fact.

"Do you think unicorns might exist somewhere" more closely corresponds to a philosophical question. We cannot answer this with evidence, only voice opinions, these opinions can be based on the facts "evidence points that unicorns do not exist" and "evidence points that we do not know everything so they can exist".
 

Cognisant

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Whether unicorns exist is no philosophical question, it is very much a scientific one.
The empirical question is scientific but the fact that a negative can't be proven is philosophy.

At the moment our observations and evidence concludes no, unicorns do not exist. If evidence to the contrary is given that conclusion has to be changed. We can also make the scientific statement that unicorns somewhere might exist since we do not know everything. Evidence for and against their existence is presented and that evidence points to "based on what we know unicorns do not exist"
The empirical scientific method, which is actually by your own definition philosophy since the method can't prove itself, sure it works and that's why it's the foundation of the modern world but that does not preclude the possibility of there being phenomena outside its purview.

Not that I think there is, rather I'm demonstrating the discipline of philosophical rhetoric because as much as I'd like to say the scientific method is absolutely irrefutable that wouldn't be true, it's merely all but absolutely irrefutable :D

As you see I can give a clear answer to these statements unlike something like "what is the meaning of life" which is a philosophical question without any clear answer.
Actually the question itself is a misunderstanding.

"It is impossible to prove a negative" is no philosophical question it is a statement of fact.
A philosophical fact.

"Do you think unicorns might exist somewhere" more closely corresponds to a philosophical question. We cannot answer this with evidence, only voice opinions, these opinions can be based on the facts "evidence points that unicorns do not exist" and "evidence points that we do not know everything so they can exist".
That's not philosophy unless there's an agreed upon definition for "unicorns" and devising such a definition would be a philosophical discussion, without it the discussion is merely fanciful speculation, as I've said philosophy is a discipline.
 

kvothe27

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Religion is philosophy combined with a set psychological processes that help people adhere to that philosophy, such as threats of hell, promises of heaven, social enforcement (shaming, ostracisation, etc.), increased levels of happiness (gratitude, community, charity, meditation, etc.) etc.

The discipline of philosophy or just encountering different philosophies can throw a wrench into such psychological machinery, but that machinery is obviously strong enough to retain plenty of members anyway.
 

Seteleechete

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I was under the assumption that we had a definition of unicorn agreed upon, I agree that defining that definition is philosophical.

I do not see facts, philosophical in origin or otherwise as philosophical but rather part of the scientific method (this is a philosophical statement XD)

You will notice that I started with
"my view on philosophy" that is because I see" what philosophy is" as a philosophical question. My opinion based answer separates it from the empirical scientific method, with the negative thing being a factual part of this method. Other also opinion based answers would not make this separation.
"Does/should this separation exist" is a philosophical question.
 

Cognisant

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You will notice that I started with
"my view on philosophy" that is because I see" what philosophy is" as a philosophical question. My opinion based answer separates it from the empirical scientific method, with the negative thing being a factual part of this method. Other also opinion based answers would not make this separation.
Making assertions on baseless opinion is not philosophy even if that opinion is an alternate definition of philosophy, your assertion must be validated before it becomes fact and for that reason it cannot validate itself. Furthermore it is my assertion that being a discipline is the distinction between what it and is not philosophy because otherwise there would be no distinction and philosophy wouldn't be anything.

I've not had this much fun in a long time :D
 

Seteleechete

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But under my definition of philosophy it is validated and making assertions on baseless opinions is allowed since "what philosophy is" is not seen as a scientific question but rather a philosophical one. Also under my definition your statements are making "what philosophy is" a scientific question and you are responding with your opinion based answer, just like religion does to most other philosophical questions.


I laughed hard putting this answer together.:D:D:D
 

Cognisant

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But under my definition of philosophy it is validated and making assertions on baseless opinions is allowed since "what philosophy is" is not seen as a scientific question but rather a philosophical one.
Tch well if you're going to be a subjectivist :rolleyes:

Also under my definition your statements are making "what philosophy is" a scientific question
The scientific method is philosophical so it's all still philosophy in the end :p
 

Seteleechete

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And the conclusion, there is no right answer just our separate opinions of what the right answer is.
 

Seteleechete

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And your opinion is... your opinion :angel:
 

Kuu

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Science is a subset of philosophy, being founded on empiricism and rationalism, solidly founded upon materialism. In our contemporary understanding, I agree it has turned into the "philosophy of the answerable" (although it would be more proper to say "of the disprovable"), leaving the rest of philosophy to be that of the "yet unanswerable".

However I think that religion is not a subset of philosophy, as has been stated. Religion is a multi-headed hydra, and only a few of its heads feed off the tree of philosophy. Religion is too big a monster to be coherent; they're full of contradictions by attempting to be a jack of all trades. Most of their claims to truth have been dispelled by science. Their position on ethics, often resting upon the authority of divine mandates, have been equally undermined. Religious texts are no longer taken at face value as reliable historical accounts, save by the delusional and ignorant. Their political philosophies hatched in tribal and feudal times are of little relevance to our present state...

Religion has therefore just two remaining solid claims:

1) As a system of rituals and symbols that satisfies the social/psychological needs of some people, and thus generates social cohesion. This is undeniably effective among some people, particularly troubled and ignorant people (the opium of the people). However, such results can be equally achieved by things other than religion, and without need to involve all the mistaken baggage religions have accumulated through old age.

2) As system of rituals and symbols that is a gnostic tool of philosophical (some would say 'spiritual') enlightenment. Often appealing for those skeptical of science and those curious to investigate the philosophy of the yet unanswerable. The merits of this is hard to quantify and qualify due to their largely subjective nature. However, it is my personal opinion that their penchant for cryptic jargon and occultist obfuscation are more tools of obscurantism than enlightenment: inflating their worth or masking their lack of. Perhaps at some point those were necessary in order to pass knowledge that was heavily repressed, but nowadays it just seems pointless, often making it confusing and harder for people to reap the benefits there might be and therefore inferior to any system that is straightforward and open.

Does "satanism" really need to be called so, and define things as "magic" and other christian-derived names, where other terms might be equally useful and avoid the confusion and negative associations? Does Buddhism in the western world really need all those ancient sanskrit words and parables to explain its fundamental concepts? A modernization is required (a semantic pruning if you will), not to simplify the message, but to decomplexify the delivery.

I'm a proponent of less is more: maximum impact with minimum resources, and religion is a flawed, outdated philosophical resource hog. The process must be terminated.
 

onesteptwostep

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I think that's a good analysis on prevailing thought about religion. However I do have to disagree on when you say most of their claims to 'truth' have been disproven by science. Most religions, namely Christianity, does not make empirical claims about the earth, their interpreters do. The literal vs. allegorical interpretation of Genesis probably existed much before Christ came, for the highest of the religious authorities. And for the most of them, it really wasn't a big deal anyways. It was Saint Augustine (4th cen.) that suggested that the literal interpretation could be wrong- and of course, the modern powers of observational science didn't exist at the time for him to come to a conclusion that it was so.

As for its position on 'ethics' or morality, religion has for the most part piggybacked on conservative, societal conventions and rather used religion to justify their opposition. An example of that would be homosexuality. I could give an elaboration about that in another topic if you want, but I think the current attitudes towards homosexuality from Christians should be realized.
 

Vrecknidj

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Alright, I'll read it then. Have any recommendations for the other material?
As far as supplementary work, certainly Jung's other work, and probably Goethe will help. But, insofar as the other material he references throughout, I highly recommend having access to a decent Bible and whatever apocrypha you can get your hands on. For a nice collection in one work, I'd recommend Oxford's.
 

jgomez2542

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Tch well if you're going to be a subjectivist :rolleyes:


The scientific method is philosophical so it's all still philosophy in the end :p

Well i would say that the points of divergence of science from philosophy is that science bases its arguments on emperical evidence, while philosophy depends on pure logic and reasoning. The only scientific discipline that's akin to philosophy is mathematics because in mathematics, like in philosophy, you start off with axioms and use extensive deductive reasoning in order to reach a logical conclusion based on your initial assumptions(of course im talking about theoretical mathematics here). This method is in stark contrast to other scientific fields(such as physics, chemistry etc.) where the main impetus to the argument is the emperical evidence and any other theories and laws that have been validated by tangible evidence. So in the end the scientific method, in my opinion, is as philosophical as much as we consider ourselves english. We are the progeny of the english, but eventually we developed our own identities and now distinguish ourselves from them xD
 

gilliatt

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Well we can only speak of individuals, it is impossible the think collectivist wholes. The acting, thinking, willing communities is merely anthropomorphism. Human beings construct society based on their actions. Religion, has it provided man with answers to say: why there are rich and poor, violence and justice, war and peace, etc. No! One has to look elsewhere. Religion set out to give man an answer to the problems of life, where man most needed its help, like man to man, man to Nature, it leaves out all the important questions/answers. So, what is religion offering man? Prayer, fasts, food, circumcision, is that all? They offer nothing to the mind. They do not explain the universe, stars, light, time, space, metaphysical, epistemology, best economics for society, private property, individual rights, freedom, capitalism, the future etc. etc. They are just dead churches. They just leave all the problems to the nation and state. Its these old ideas, medieval second century, nothing new. Just a fight against the foreign, the new, the infidel. Remember that religion is a primitive form of philosophy with many myths that are distorted, dramatized allegories based on some element of truth, some aspect of man's existence.
The main thing about religion is its anti-man, anti-mind, anti-life. It opposes man's enjoyment of his life, it does not want Galileo to have any knowledge of the universe, and sex is an evil and on and on.
 

Yellow

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I've always seen religion as a discipline. Philosophy is also a discipline. While they occasionally mingle, they are not necessarily connected or disconnected. Spirituality, on the other hand, lies between the two. Spirituality here meaning "what gives you a feeling of connection to something beyond yourself." The spirituality of some is highly philosophical, for some it's primarily entangled in religion, and still for others, its a bit of both.

I see what your were saying, Reluctantly, about Satan being more of a philosopher. I think it is part of a bigger Christian theme warning against the selfish/worldly rationalizations that would distance you from your obedience to God's will.
 

Rook

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I have a preference for civilizations that worshiped the sun.

These religions were still cluttered with myths and lies,
but the mere presence of the star deserves reverence from humanity.
 

Black Rose

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something i think religion does is create cultural constructs. something i think christianity does is deconstruct the old constructs that hindered the individual in relationship to Gods will. If only God can judge you then you do not need to obey an evil society. Morality is up to the individual instead.
 

Feather

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Its funny, I use the the word phillosphy all the time and never have tried to inspect what it means.
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I first tried to make a distinction from science. In that Science uses as little inductive reasoning as possible to the point that assumptions and axiom are chossen so that it looks like like no inductive reasoning was used at all. Thats allows for things to be quantified in such a way deductive reasoing can be the power house. The output can allow mastery of the outside world.
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In Phillosophy things are inspected that are mostly inductive, and things that are quantified are more subjective and deductive reasoning is more general. The output can allow mastery of the inside world.
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These feed into each other. Phillosphy can lead you to deeper understanding of consciousness and that can feed the assumptions and groundwork of something like digital physics. Or vice versa.
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The distiction from religion, is one of efficiency. Science and Phillosphy are different ends of the same tool, from it you can understand something and control something. That tool the intellect, serves the motivation of a person.
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When we talk of motivation its about what brings meaning or satisifaction and value.
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It can be argued that, there is to kinds of motivation
1. Natural values, dont require reasoning, they are experiential. Has no risk.
2. Synthetic Values (ego), require reasoning, they are self created. Its satisfaction based on what you think could happen in the future. Has risk (fear, stress).
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When that tool the intellect is in more service of the ego to cope with risk, beliefs and dogma is what is created. The less effectively the tool is used, phillosphy at its best (spritiuality) turns into its worst (religion).
 

Lapis Lazuli

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I've always seen religion as a discipline. Philosophy is also a discipline. While they occasionally mingle, they are not necessarily connected or disconnected. Spirituality, on the other hand, lies between the two. Spirituality here meaning "what gives you a feeling of connection to something beyond yourself." The spirituality of some is highly philosophical, for some it's primarily entangled in religion, and still for others, its a bit of both.

I see what your were saying, Reluctantly, about Satan being more of a philosopher. I think it is part of a bigger Christian theme warning against the selfish/worldly rationalizations that would distance you from your obedience to God's will.

Do you not like to mingle science and spirituality?
 

onesteptwostep

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I have a preference for civilizations that worshiped the sun.

These religions were still cluttered with myths and lies,
but the mere presence of the star deserves reverence from humanity.

A lot of astrophysicists in NASA are Christian, ironically.

I somewhat have a theory on cultures who have sun worship as their religious thing. I think it's possible that they were monotheistic but the traditions of it died out, over the course of the years (centuries), which left their descendants with a framework of worship which then was misinterpreted to a type of 'sun worship'. I think a 'celebration' of nature became 'religious worship' via indoctrination+development of civilization. Now in the case of Egypt that sort of died out and the pharaoh became the deity (among other great people).
 

Puffy

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I think at least historically speaking it is difficult to disentangle philosophy and religion (what I take to mean some kind of belief in a spiritual reality). Many of the original hellenistic philosophers -- Plato, Heraclitus, Pythagoras, Parmenides, et al -- were clearly mystics of different shades, that, like Salmoneus said, then had an impact on the scholarly life of Christianity (and I think, Islam); the study of metaphysics itself implied theology until the 17th century in that 'the first cause' [unmoved mover, etc] was one of its main objects of study.

Two main issues for me:

A) One only has to experience the Gothic Cathedrals to know that Christianity may have once possessed a genius that was an inspiration to great works; it was once a vital cultural force. My experience of modern Christianity, as it's practiced in the West now, is that it's a vacuous lifeless shell however, that's basically self-enclosed & irrelevant outside itself, except so far as it impacts politics, etc.

The problem is in most discussions on religion/spirituality here we hold that as the main example of what it is and then rightfully distance ourselves from it, where I find it difficult to believe it's related to in the same way as intellectuals in the past.

B) In the modern era philosophy seems to have undergone a crises that has led to it being re-defined, as Kuu outlined, as essentially materialist. Religions/ Spiritualities can clearly have philosophical traditions and make philosophical enquiries, history is evidence of that, but a lot of the questions that pertain uniquely to that are thought to be irrelevant to philosophy as it is practiced today.

-------

C) I'm guessing Kuu is referring to the philosophy of the sciences. My experience of the philosophy of the Humanities is that it's not very... scientific. :D
 

propianotuner1

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Was thinking about how religion tends to provide answers, whereas philosophy tends to provide questions in place of answers, and how that's conflicted with a lot of religions. For example, Satan in Christianity is often depicted as having a philosophic mindset, as if philosophers are a threat to the religion. Satan is often depicted as putting into question what people are told to believe or think. The solution given is sometimes given to ignore him.

anyway, I don't think this thread has been made before and I'm very interested in the parallels between the two from people that know a lot more than I do about religion.

It merely depends on the religious individuals you are examining. Religion itself primarily involves philosophy, whether or not it is practiced well. The Presocratics were philosophers after all, and they produced more declarative than inquisitive statements. IMO, "religion" has been ill defined by many, as it doesn't explicitly involve a belief in the divine.
 

propianotuner1

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I think at least historically speaking it is difficult to disentangle philosophy and religion (what I take to mean some kind of belief in a spiritual reality). Many of the original hellenistic philosophers -- Plato, Heraclitus, Pythagoras, Parmenides, et al -- were clearly mystics of different shades, that, like Salmoneus said, then had an impact on the scholarly life of Christianity (and I think, Islam); the study of metaphysics itself implied theology until the 17th century in that 'the first cause' [unmoved mover, etc] was one of its main objects of study.

Two main issues for me:

A) One only has to experience the Gothic Cathedrals to know that Christianity may have once possessed a genius that was an inspiration to great works; it was once a vital cultural force. My experience of modern Christianity, as it's practiced in the West now, is that it's a vacuous lifeless shell however, that's basically self-enclosed & irrelevant outside itself, except so far as it impacts politics, etc.

The problem is in most discussions on religion/spirituality here we hold that as the main example of what it is and then rightfully distance ourselves from it, where I find it difficult to believe it's related to in the same way as intellectuals in the past.

B) In the modern era philosophy seems to have undergone a crises that has led to it being re-defined, as Kuu outlined, as essentially materialist. Religions/ Spiritualities can clearly have philosophical traditions and make philosophical enquiries, history is evidence of that, but a lot of the questions that pertain uniquely to that are thought to be irrelevant to philosophy as it is practiced today.

-------

C) I'm guessing Kuu is referring to the philosophy of the sciences. My experience of the philosophy of the Humanities is that it's not very... scientific. :D

I can understand your attitude considering the popular face of modern Christianity. However, I would also contend that Christianity has a healthy academic life of it's own today. Minds like Aquinas, Kant, Kierkegaard, and Leibniz have not disappeared from the world.
 

INTPWolf

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Was thinking about how religion tends to provide answers, whereas philosophy tends to provide questions in place of answers, and how that's conflicted with a lot of religions. For example, Satan in Christianity is often depicted as having a philosophic mindset, as if philosophers are a threat to the religion. Satan is often depicted as putting into question what people are told to believe or think. The solution given is sometimes given to ignore him.

anyway, I don't think this thread has been made before and I'm very interested in the parallels between the two from people that know a lot more than I do about religion.

While exploring this very topic not long ago i actualy realized that some satanic sects are based on this, and lucifer is often known as the lightbringer. Upon further research the new bible translations seem to consist of manipulated facts about lucifer to make him look like an evil, deceitful, manipulating trixter. And many theories point to the old versions showing lucifer as being an important part of duality. And a played a crucial part in the creation of everything.
This is where i have problems with my own thought and its hard to explore ideas further because of my christian upbringing, even though i no longer consider myself christian, the hardwiring still exists.

Here is a good compression of some surface data. http://anunnakifiles.com/2013/07/10/1841/
 

scorpiomover

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Was thinking about how religion tends to provide answers, whereas philosophy tends to provide questions in place of answers,
The modern version of Western philosophy is about restricting oneself to questions that currently have no answers. If they ever do come up with a good answer, like Atomism, then other subjects like science tend to claim those philosophies to belong to them, and NOT part of philosophy.

That being said, in philosophy in general, it is considered to be of great importance to never evade asking questions that currently make the experts appear dumb and stupid, unlike in other subjects like science.

and how that's conflicted with a lot of religions. For example, Satan in Christianity is often depicted as having a philosophic mindset, as if philosophers are a threat to the religion. Satan is often depicted as putting into question what people are told to believe or think. The solution given is sometimes given to ignore him.
There is a very common theme in human history, that certain people have adopted and corrupted good ideas, and then promoted those corrupt and false ideas as truth, under the guise of claiming they were the same as the good ideas before the corruption, and on that basis, gained much power and wealth, in the process causing much suffering and harm to innocent women and children.

As a result, those human movements that have been around long enough to be shaped by the forces of evolution to be more advantageous, have a healthy disrespect for rational reason.

anyway, I don't think this thread has been made before and I'm very interested in the parallels between the two from people that know a lot more than I do about religion.
Religious philosophy is called theology.
 

Reluctantly

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While exploring this very topic not long ago i actualy realized that some satanic sects are based on this, and lucifer is often known as the lightbringer. Upon further research the new bible translations seem to consist of manipulated facts about lucifer to make him look like an evil, deceitful, manipulating trixter. And many theories point to the old versions showing lucifer as being an important part of duality. And a played a crucial part in the creation of everything.
This is where i have problems with my own thought and its hard to explore ideas further because of my christian upbringing, even though i no longer consider myself christian, the hardwiring still exists.

Here is a good compression of some surface data. http://anunnakifiles.com/2013/07/10/1841/

It's very interesting, isn't it. To be known as the Lightbringer, yet depicted for the darkness it creates.

The modern version of Western philosophy is about restricting oneself to questions that currently have no answers.

I think I'm of the few that see usefulness in finding questions with no clear answers. It's less restrictive, and yet with an acceptance of no answer, allows an understanding of those that do find clear answers where rationally there aren't any.

I guess...I see freedom in understanding how uncertain a thing is, the freedom to change how I answer an unanswerable question as I will it, whereas others feel overwhelmed or perhaps crushed by the thought of having no firm ground to stand on.

So maybe, if you are right, this isn't so bad.

Religious philosophy is called theology.

I disagree. Theology attempts to rationally argue for the existence or non-existence of religious belief. It doesn't have to have anything to do with philosophy. But philosophy, as it deals in abstract notions of ethics, how to understand and solve problems, and determining the best way(s) to live is quite similar to religion. Perhaps religion creates more answers and asks less questions in seeking these goals.
 

onesteptwostep

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I disagree. Theology attempts to rationally argue for the existence or non-existence of religious belief. It doesn't have to have anything to do with philosophy. But philosophy, as it deals in abstract notions of ethics, how to understand and solve problems, and determining the best way(s) to live is quite similar to religion. Perhaps religion creates more answers and asks less questions in seeking these goals.

I disagree with this. Theology doesn't try to rationalize an existence for God, it starts with God already existing; it is de facto. That's a complete misunderstanding of how theology works. Anyway theology is what prompted rational clarity in the Byzantine empire, which lead to Augustine, then Aquinas, then the Reformation-> Enlightenment ->Descartes, who laid the foundations of modern philosophy as we know today. Theology is philosophy. Well to put it more accurately theology is more like applied philosophy, in the religious realm of things. If you're talking about something like Aquinas' 5 arguments or something like Pascal's wager stuff, that isn't theology, they're just philosophical arguments. Theology is more rooted in religious text (and experience), not rationalism. God already exists.
 

Reluctantly

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I disagree with this. Theology doesn't try to rationalize an existence for God, it starts with God already existing; it is de facto. That's a complete misunderstanding of how theology works. Anyway theology is what prompted rational clarity in the Byzantine empire, which lead to Augustine, then Aquinas, then the Reformation-> Enlightenment ->Descartes, who laid the foundations of modern philosophy as we know today. Theology is philosophy. Well to put it more accurately theology is more like applied philosophy, in the religious realm of things. If you're talking about something like Aquinas' 5 arguments or something like Pascal's wager stuff, that isn't theology, they're just philosophical arguments. Theology is more rooted in religious text (and experience), not rationalism. God already exists.

Well, like I said, it doesn't have to have anything to do with philosophy. It can and sometimes does, but I was more interested in only how religion and philosophy intertwine.

But theology is also used to refute or invalidate religious practices and ideas; there can be an assumption of the divine, but not necessarily agreement on whether that implies God. Though honestly "God" is very abstract and can mean almost anything, so maybe that's what you meant, I don't know.
 

Black Rose

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Ethics (also moral philosophy) is the branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics

A narrative or story is any report of connected events, actual or imaginary, presented in a sequence of written or spoken words, or still or moving images.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative

Wisdom is the ability to think and act using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom

Religion is a story or narrative which teaches the wisdom of moral philosophy. People who are philosophers love the wisdom that religion provides because morality is the character we gain from living a personal story. Language is story telling and everything we speak is a story.
 

scorpiomover

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I think I'm of the few that see usefulness in finding questions with no clear answers. It's less restrictive, and yet with an acceptance of no answer, allows an understanding of those that do find clear answers where rationally there aren't any.

I guess...I see freedom in understanding how uncertain a thing is, the freedom to change how I answer an unanswerable question as I will it, whereas others feel overwhelmed or perhaps crushed by the thought of having no firm ground to stand on.

So maybe, if you are right, this isn't so bad.
I like to have unanswered questions and answered questions. Or, TBH, it's what I am used to.

Theology attempts to rationally argue for the existence or non-existence of religious belief.
That is the aspect of theology that atheists are interested in.

But philosophy, as it deals in abstract notions of ethics, how to understand and solve problems, and determining the best way(s) to live is quite similar to religion.
FYI, religious scholars have engaged in such discussions in the context of their religious values and principles, while also taking into account their non-religious values and principles as well, and have done so for thousands of years. I've read plenty of books on all sorts of such topics, including a religious book written on the ethics of human cloning, that was published in the 1970s, several years before the first mammal to be cloned, and decades before most scientifically-minded people considered the ethics of the subject. Informally, the general category of such topics is called theology, as distinct from philosophy, as philosophers tend to be not that interested in understanding the world from a Catholic POV, or a Baptist POV, or a Muslim POV, or the thousands of different Hindu POVs, and tend to focus only on secular arguments. Different religions have different theologies. Different denominations sometimes have different theologies as well, if they have enough religious scholarly works to make their own theology that is distinct from the general theology of their religion as a whole. Some theological works were written down. Some were passed down from teacher to student, and were written down later on. A lot of theology is still passed from teacher to student, making it quite difficult to fully grasp the philosophical underpinnings of a particular religion unless one undertakes to study it under one of their religious scholars.

Perhaps religion creates more answers and asks less questions in seeking these goals.
Depends. The Talmud is constantly asking questions. There's probably 10 questions per A4 side, 2 sides per page, about 200 pages per volume, and 20 volumes in all, and that's just the main text, let alone the commentaries on the sides, or the commentaries at the back, or the thousands upon thousands of other works written on the Talmud, and that's just Jewish law. There's thousands of books written asking questions on the Torah, thousands of books written on the topic of ethics, and many thousands of stories and metaphors intended to teach many lessons with a single parable. Students of the Talmud spend all day asking questions, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, 40 weeks a year. Many of these questions get answers, but usually only with a lot of hard work and analysing lots of different arguments. About 1 in 20 of these questions are left unanswered, as the scholars of the time couldn't answer them, and no-one else has been able to either.

How much time do philosophy students spend asking questions?

OTOH, there are several Xian denominations in Europe from poor and oppressed peoples that have learned to not ask questions, as asking questions led to questioning the authority of their oppressors, which in turn led to defiance against their oppressors, which in turn led to their women being raped and their children being hung or burned to death by their oppressors, to stem the possibility of revolt.

I suggest, that not every religion and not every religious denomination is the same, and that cultural influences have affected different groups of people to make some ask more questions, and some ask less. I suggest, that when people think of religion as only having answers and not questions, that they think back to THEIR experiences growing up. I question, where did you grow up? What country? What town? What did your parents do for a living? What did your grandparents do for a living, and where did they live? Is there a tradition in your cultural background of always asking questions on every topic other than religion, going back 20 generations previous? If not, then what makes you so very different from your ancestors that you ask many questions and they ask few or none, when you have the same genes, and the same memes, and thus are so identical in biology and neurology that there's probably very little to differentiate between you and them?
 

onesteptwostep

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Well, like I said, it doesn't have to have anything to do with philosophy. It can and sometimes does, but I was more interested in only how religion and philosophy intertwine.

But theology is also used to refute or invalidate religious practices and ideas; there can be an assumption of the divine, but not necessarily agreement on whether that implies God. Though honestly "God" is very abstract and can mean almost anything, so maybe that's what you meant, I don't know.

It depends on what religion you're talking about I guess. If you're talking about Christianity you can understand how that deity functions by reading the Bible, (I mean, obviously?). "Christ" isn't an abstraction, he existed in the 1st century. Whether that person is a deity or not just depends on how you view him, I guess.

If you're talking about theology in general, then yeah on the surface it doesn't overlap with philosophy as much. If you mean religion and philosophy in terms of history however, there's no way you can divorce Christianity from western philosophy. All the major philosophers from Descartes to Hegel where Christian, though with different shades of theism. The percentage is overwhelming.
 

propianotuner1

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Well, like I said, it doesn't have to have anything to do with philosophy. It can and sometimes does, but I was more interested in only how religion and philosophy intertwine.

But theology is also used to refute or invalidate religious practices and ideas; there can be an assumption of the divine, but not necessarily agreement on whether that implies God. Though honestly "God" is very abstract and can mean almost anything, so maybe that's what you meant, I don't know.

Here is some music for our listening pleasure, as we read and contemplate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VswsTffasc

Actually, by it's very definition it is a form of philosophy. Philosophy overlaps most academic disciplines, because they all were originally and continue to be under it's purview, owing their basis to philosophers after all. Scientists, for example, subscribe to a specific form of empiricism in order to have epistemological grounding for their work, which is in the category of philosophy called metaphysics.

It may help in understanding this to take a look at etymology and some of the more recent history of philosophy, so that you can see what I'm getting at. Philo is the Attic Greek word for "wisdom", and sophia the word in Attic for an infatuation, a kind of love lesser than agape (unconditional love) but greater than feleo (brotherly love).

Thus, philosophers were originally and for quite some time until the stratification of philosophy (hence physicists, biologists, anthropologists, sociologists, theologians, "philosophers", etc.), generalists who for the love of wisdom most often made contributions in a variety of fields. Aristotle, for example, discovered that fish have air bladders in the research chronicled in his Zoology, continued the work of political theory set out in Plato's Republic with his Nichomachean Ethics, and came up with groundbreaking ideas as to the form and function of logic such as the syllogism, and types of causes (material, final, formal, and efficient), in his masterpiece entitled Posterior Analytics.

Later on in Isaac Newton's day, it was much the same as he not only published the Principia Mathematica but a number of theological treatises, marvelous studies into biological taxonomy, and a few forays into epistemology in support of Empiricism especially against Descartes, a Rationalist. Of course he is most well known for the Principia which lays out Newton's Laws of Motion, and during his time scientists like himself were actually called natural philosophers.

Now, we sally onward to discussion of theology. Theo is the Attic word for Deity/deities, and logos is a very loaded Attic word that pertains to the practice of formal dialogue and thinking, hence the modern term "logic". As such, from the beginning of it's practice theology has been the study of deity. It exists in many forms, some clearly less possessive of critical thinking than others, but the same can be said in other areas of philosophy when we compare Socrates to either the Sophists or Eleatics of his day. There is a rich philosophical history behind theology and many debates that could be considered anything but dogmatic, rather they were probing and should rightfully invoke excitement today just the same as any other of philosophy.

The best example in theology, has to be the giant that is Augustine of Hippo. There is no other person of the classical period who had published so much material as Augustine, and to be frank no one else even comes close to the 200+ books that we know of today. His two most famous works are The Confessions and The City of God.

In The Confessions we find a riveting account of his metanoia ("change of mind", translated as "repentance" in the New Testament) from the late and internally divergent adherents of the Second Platonic Academy to Christianity. Partly a biography and partly an extensive rationalization of his conversion, he details the changes in his ethics, his understanding of deity, etc. and composes a number of critical Christian responses to the Epicureans, Stoics, and Skeptics of the Academy, at the same time establishing the logos of his faith with Platonic reasoning as well as uniquely Christian philosophical reasoning.

In The City of God, we find the Platonic Christian counterpart to Plato's Republic, in which Augustine borrows some from Platonic reasoning (in particular the idea of Platonic Forms) in order to form a picture of the pneuma/soul. This is juxtaposed against Plato's understanding of pneuma, which to him models the perfect polis/city, as Augustine contrasts from him with his conclusion that humanity on earth is hopelessly depraved, and the only perfect societal state of affairs wherein the qualities of the pneuma can truly be seen, is within the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus, the function of society is instead bent towards an ultimate, theological purpose.

Are there dogmas within philosophy? There certainly are. Just look at Platonic Forms, for one example of many. But my main point is that the mere observation that there are different noticeable tendencies between theology and the stereotypical idea of "philosophy", hampers more than it helps in explaining the real nature of the two. Historically, and functionally, theology is fundamentally predicated on philosophy, and the different attitudes/modes-of-thought that people observe in theology (sometimes contrasting them from "philosophy proper" as if it were separate), are in fact types of reasoning that have their origins in the work of philosophers.

While it might be said that "philosophy proper" doesn't operate under the axiom that "deity must exist in the first place" (which isn't true either as the designation "atheist" is technically a theological position, just look at the word itself!), every area of philosophy aside from certain inquiries in epistemology, has to use a number of axioms. Determining the presence or lack of such axioms is called "establishing the universe of discourse", and it is necessary to have a universe of discourse in order to ask all kinds of different questions without having to regress all the way back to "how can we know anything, or this or that, in the first place".
 

propianotuner1

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I disagree with this. Theology doesn't try to rationalize an existence for God, it starts with God already existing; it is de facto. That's a complete misunderstanding of how theology works. Anyway theology is what prompted rational clarity in the Byzantine empire, which lead to Augustine, then Aquinas, then the Reformation-> Enlightenment ->Descartes, who laid the foundations of modern philosophy as we know today. Theology is philosophy. Well to put it more accurately theology is more like applied philosophy, in the religious realm of things. If you're talking about something like Aquinas' 5 arguments or something like Pascal's wager stuff, that isn't theology, they're just philosophical arguments. Theology is more rooted in religious text (and experience), not rationalism. God already exists.

Actually, Apologetics is technically an area of theology. It is logos pertaining to theo, after all. The term "Apologetics" comes from the Attic apologia, which means "to present a formal case in favor of" and as such it is merely a specific form of argument: that type which defends a particular notion or set of notions. In Plato's Apology we see Socrates actually defending himself before the Athenian Tribunal, but Blaise Pascal's Wager is also an apology, the difference being that Pascal's Wager is an apology in favor of Fideism (a philosophical variant of theism). So, arguments of that nature are not "just philosophy" instead of theology, rather they are both philosophy and more specifically theology.

That theology refers to "religious text", and philosophy refers only to "philosophical text" is a misnomer. Surely in the bible, for example, it must be recognized that much of the material in Job, Ecclesiastes, Psalms, Proverbs, the Epistles, the Prophets, and more ethical material in the Torah such as Deuteronomy, is all philosophical. While Deuteronomy certainly doesn't offer up an apologia for it's conclusions like Job or Proverbs, neither did Anaxagoras, Zeno, or Demosthenes who are noted Presocratics that tended to make bare assertions and expected the force of reason in their ideas to be self evident. Just as Paul was writing heavily philosophical material in the book of Romans, and referring back to Old Testament scriptures, so did even Socrates, Aristiades, Themistocles, and Plato refer back to oracles received at Delphi or Homer, Hesiod, and Aesop's poems. Platonism essentially was a religion in ancient Greece, by the time Paul stood before the Areopagus to debate theology with the Epicureans and Stoics in Athens.

See Acts 17:18-33

18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? *Challenge to enter philosophical dialogue* 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” *Requesting clarity* 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.) 22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you. *Introduction of apology*

24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. *Arguing for transcendence* 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’b *Paul quotes the philosopher Epimenides* As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’c *Another quote from the Stoic Aratus*
29“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. *Argument from the perspective of design, which is later emulated by the Stoic Epictetus in his Golden Sayings, who said that idols are merely objects* 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. *Presenting a perspective on the process of history* 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” *Expressed interest at being compelled by such philosophy again* 33At that, Paul left the Council.
 

gilliatt

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First thing is, I can say anything I want to because I doubt I have any friends among you. Well, it is truth I search for. The will to truth, have to allow truth. The truthful man, he scrutinizes. I can say you priest, you are a plain old con man. The principle of honesty is a virtue, we have to first grasp the essence of lying. You hear, "They call it Judgment Day, the coming of their kingdom, the Kingdom of God, and all this suffering. Stop it! I've heard enough." Yes they want their own kingdom, everybody wants that. Sensual perception is never deceptive! Power of vision, seeing beneath the surface that most people do not see. An X-ray machine sees more than the eye. So Priest-job security:::Priest-manipulation of minds. You have to be an intellectual detective. Question logic, principles, proofs, evidence,is it an intellectual crime, you are Sherlock Holmes.
 

Puffy

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I can understand your attitude considering the popular face of modern Christianity. However, I would also contend that Christianity has a healthy academic life of it's own today. Minds like Aquinas, Kant, Kierkegaard, and Leibniz have not disappeared from the world.

I realise with the forum going down it's possible you might not return to this discussion, but in that case could you let me know who these minds are? I haven't read around recent Christian scholarly work in fairness and am happy to re-think my position if corrected, but I can't help feel that's a pretty bold claim (comparison to Leibniz & co, I mean). :p
 
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