Why are we so damn articulate?

[nearfantastica]

INTPs with writing skill that aren't better than average are a rarity, I think.

We express our thoughts succinctly unless Ne gets out of hand. Our vocabulary tends to be quite large. There's always a logical flow to whatever we write. Grammar doesn't seem to be something we ever struggle with. (Things I've observed during my time browsing MBTI forums.)

But...why?

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, I've seen spelling be an issue for some. (It's a running joke with my kid about what a terrible speller he is, although he's very articulate.) Usually INTPs don't make pure logic errors, it's more about inaccurate assumptions or glossing over too many details if anything.

My guess is that is:
1. introversion (and we talk to ourselves a lot)
2. precision... it demands knowing a lot of "qualifier" vocab
3. lots of reading, so we are exposed to many ideas and words and absorb them
4. thinking patterns are structured (logic cause->effect) to the degree sometimes it interferes with our ability to communicate casually / without logical underlying structure
5. it's the area of focus for the type: Ideas and testing them, to determine the most accurate ones that hinge together

language the way we use it is kind of a "mathematics of words" rather than necessarily the ways that many other people use it.

 

[Grayman]

I would suggest a different approach in thought.

How easy is it to communicate emotions without words? Sadness, Happiness etc....
How how easy is it to articulate that a chipmunk lives in a tree without words?

Perhaps this is a part of what separates thinkers and feelers when it comes to communicating.

 

[kantor1003]

I am, for one, not all that articulate. In conversation I often find myself struggling to find the appropriate words, and I often feel quite inadequate in capturing my thoughts in real time. I think this has to do with the, in general, fast pacing and the spontaneity of conversation, and in it involving many factors besides the communication of ideas. For one example, we all have to be aware of implicit rules for when it is proper to answer, or interrupt the other speaker. These rules, or conventions, are context dependent and vary with persons and cultures etc. Some are more naturally able to pick up on those, avoiding having to deal with it creeping into conscious awareness clogging up the flow of thoughts. I´m not one of them. In addition to those, there are a host of emotional signals that others give off that I react to, that need not bear any direct relation to whatever it is that is the topic at hand. When I notice them, I can focus in on them to such an extent that it disrupts my ability to develop a longer idea. This leads me to the second point.

My thoughts on some matter are often far too intricate and multi-layered for me to be able to deliver them concisely and clearly within the time frame of an ordinary conversation where the average speaker (from my experience in my whereabouts) has about 20 seconds at most to deliver his, or her point. It requires a particular skill set, especially for someone that has views that differs radically from the cultural norm, to be able to do so effectively. I am sadly lacking in those. At worst the result then becomes a word salad, often, a sentence stopped midway for others to fill in, at best, a lovely fragment.
(For those interested, the philosophers mail has an interesting article about La Rochefocauld where you can read about, among other things, how he developed the aphorism to be able to cut through in the salons where they had no tolerance for 'leadenness or pomposity'. And lets face it, going on for 30 seconds+ about some topic that borders on the esoteric making sure every detail gets in will often have that character unless you are in a specific social context where it is expected, or at least accepted.)

When it comes to writing, however, I tend to do much better. For one, I can write when I feel like it. That means that I don´t have to force some thought that fits with the direction the conversation is going in. Instead I can write down the thoughts that are most pressing to me. Thoughts that I rarely find the social space for. And best of all, I can do so at my own pace which means that I have time to find the perfect (or as close to it as I can manage) word, or phrase for what it is that I want to say, and I can go back and edit what I have written so that I can create more complete, and accurate pictures.

To answer your question. I think that having an ardent desire to make a true representation of ones own thoughts, while having a rich inner world striving for a nuanced view on life in all it's complexity, will have the natural consequence of a bigger vocabulary.

 

[Brontosaurie]

i've pretty much stopped expanding my vocabulary. that Ji put me in a deadlock and everything seems vapid and pretentious.

 

[nanook]

I agree with grayman. Everyone with reasonable intelligence is articulate as long as he stays within his territory, but flails outside of it.

I'm not sure, if i can see my own process accurately, but ...

as an intuitive, i am incapable of finding the vocabulary to describe the static properties of objects, such as my town, even though i have the image in my mind. I'm just not practiced to do it.

As an introvert, i can not simply describe what was said in an argument, without presenting my analysis instead.

As a feeler, i can not create the impression of being fully neutral about a sciency logical argument, or about economical decisions.

As an introverted-feeler i can not even speak about emotions, without explaining their context, so that it sounds logical, so i can never be a poet, at best i can write a punk rock song.

But as an intutive perceiver, i derive huge verbal stamina from speaking about interconnections or functionality in a descriptive manner. People think this makes me a bright thinker, but i make very few and simple logical arguments, basically elementary school arguments like: if this were true, the output would look like that, else it would look different. All of the real complexity of my thoughts is inspired by a visualisation of sorts. I describe what i see like a painter puts strokes on paper, copying the image in his mind. Even when i suggest priorities, which is a simple form of judgement, the argument for it is delivered through perception. I am in fact a very unthinking person. Inferior Te, i think. Ask me, why i don't have a life. I have not thought about, how i could make it happen! I can't think about manipulating reality, beyond fixing a bike. I accept everything as it is. So, imagine what happens to my eloquence when you put me into a job interview, lol. "Tell us how you can advance our business." "Erm, i am good looking?" I can only manipulate perceptions and thoughts and feelings.

And as a feeler, i can add moral or ethical passion into my visions, so i can at times become an efficient preacher, who is probably not taken seriously, because my visions are not shared.

 

[sonofo]

I don't have the insight in typology to answer from that perspective.
In my case it seams to be due to the lack of natural skill, when words are a conscious effort precision follows. Of course if someone with natural skill put in the effort they achieve greater precision but I have experienced few fitting that description.

 

[DrSketchpad]

OOH OOH OOH! I think I've got an answer (well, it'll be an answer as long as I type something coherent and relevant; answer isn't inherently correct.)

I've noticed this as well and as someone brought up, this might be the difference between thinkers and feelers. I think the articulation is pretty much the main point (probably one of the main points at least) of Ti is drawing the information from your brain into something a lot more usable (more reusable I guess is what I'm really getting at) by putting it into a relatively global way of fundamentally understanding something (language). And I think that's what INTPs are. We are the people who love organizing or drawing out the information; we crave it. We are also the people who love drawing out the more abstract connections we make (Ti+Ne).
As opposed to the more physical concrete information (Ti+Se.)

EDIT: It turns out I made an answer after all.

EDIT: cleaning up sentences

It's something I've been kind of rolling over in my head for a few days.

 

[The Introvert]

Perhaps INTP's just think they are more articulate than the average bear?

Nah, that couldn't be it...

But in all seriousness... I wouldn't say more articulate but perhaps more 'logical' in that the reasons behind what they are saying are there... they might just not be expressed as easily as they think, which leads us to the typical INTP trait IMO, which is a clear sense of superiority. Yes, I am saying most INTPs think they are more intelligent than everyone else, and they say it much more frequently and much less abashedly than they would like to think (or perhaps than they realize).

 

[Sockrates]

INTPs with writing skill that aren't better than average are a rarity, I think.

We express our thoughts succinctly unless Ne gets out of hand. Our vocabulary tends to be quite large. There's always a logical flow to whatever we write. Grammar doesn't seem to be something we ever struggle with. (Things I've observed during my time browsing MBTI forums.)

But...why?

INTJs are similar, probably more precise than our INTP cousins.

 

[eagor]

it's because we're just that damn sexy...it's true look it up

 

[Alomoes]

Because of that Ti that I use here, even though INFJ. Ti = brevity. http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/Introverted-Thinking.cfm

INTJs are not. Very technical. Writers of big technical computer manuals, and horrible at code are they. PRobably also better at numbers. Probably better at expressing themselves via action. Idea is that INTP favors binary, while INTJ favors ambiguous. Idea two is that INTP should be able to copy myself and do it better than I can. Ti is third function. Not natural doing this.

NiTe should look at this and say "What the hell is this crap".

 

[Sockrates]

Because of that Ti that I use here, even though INFJ. Ti = brevity. http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/Introverted-Thinking.cfm

INTJs are not. Very technical. Writers of big technical computer manuals, and horrible at code are they. PRobably also better at numbers. Probably better at expressing themselves via action. Idea is that INTP favors binary, while INTJ favors ambiguous. Idea two is that INTP should be able to copy myself and do it better than I can. Ti is third function. Not natural doing this.

NiTe should look at this and say "What the hell is this crap".

I do, and then I read work by fellow INTJs and understand/remember why we're awesomer

I'm very precise in my speech, my writing can be more ambiguous because I want the interpretation to be exactly what I mean to project and I want no excuse for misunderstanding.

 

[OrLevitate]

because intps are programmars

 

[Xiano]

If anything (you can read my previous posts on these forums) I am not very articulate. As in coherent. I end up writing a wall of text. Every word has it's purpose in my head translating that down into in a human readable form is the bane of my existence. I suppose a) the public school system failed me or b) I was too stupid to keep up.

The only thing I know about my first and only language is that their are eight parts. Now trying to convey my thoughts to the English language is an entirely different story. I don't think about the rules I just start writing or talking. I may quickly proof read something to see if there are any obvious "What is that garbage?"

I think the only reason I'm capable of talking is because I've more than likely rehearsed it in my head beforehand. The things I don't "rehearse" people will get anxious which will quickly devolve into impatience and they will ask something like "Are you there?". Often I find myself in a situation where I'm thinking how to put my thoughts into words and they give the tale tale sign of "I'm gonna pretend to be patient but I'm actually not." Which fucks me up even more. And I'll completely just lose the train of thought.

So I guess I'm more articulate than average just not intelligently so. A thought I have and my translation into a sentence is not a 1:1 ratio. More like an exponential ratio. Hell sometimes a super exponential ratio. Granted how do you quantify the complexity of thought. Well you have basic thoughts or automatic thoughts. Like "I'm going to the kitchen." Simple.

With that same example I can express a more complex version like "I'm going to the kitchen. In hopes to find food. What do I want? Well we have this. We have that. Meh. What if I combine this with that. What is the probability that I can successfully cook this? Nearly 0. How much time would this take to make vs that. Hmmm how hungry am I? Hmm would it be quicker to go pick up some fast food?"

Well it turns out it's a lot more complex to write down my typical let's go to the kitchen thought. I have no idea where I was going with this because now all I can think about is food.

 

[zerkalo]

Every word has it's purpose in my head translating that down into in a human readable form is the bane of my existence.

Same here
I don't think I'm articulate. I also suffer using my first language, so the problem is not lack of vocabulary. I would say most intps sound articulate because we expose ourselves to lots of arguments. with time, we eventually master the art of giving clear, balanced, logical replies.

the key is to try to learn about a variety of topics and perspectives and keep revising, analysing and disintegrating your arguments until you excel at them. But at the end of the day, if you come up to me with a topic I didn't think about at some point, I will probably respond with lots of "uuuuuhhhh"s and unintelligible, incoherent crap

 

[RandomGeneratedName]

I used to actually talk quite anal like most of you guys, when I was a kid, lol.

Somewhere along the line though, I realised I had moments of boresome individuality and adopted the quote "Why so serious?". ... and i've been mentally handicapped, since, lol.

I was the black sheep though, so i'm sure part of my change would of been unconsciously driven. Awesome thing is though, I still kick everyones butt in wordplay

I am getting worried about everyone though xD
I don't know how it looks to other artistic INTPs, but many sentences reads like you can't breathe or you're restraining self. Perhaps you could visit the the ADHD forums? They'll loosen you up xD (but seriously, i'm actually being serious... and probably a little offensive :O). Wonder if any other artistic INTP will back me up? Lol.

 

[TheManBeyond]

yo, ^ not an intp, not even an introverted type. period

 

[peoplesuck]

^shhhh..all the newbies post a lot on the first day, w8 a few days and then we shall see
cthulhucatphear

edit; if i ever try and be super specific i will usually forget one of the words im looking for. :l

 

[TheManBeyond]

^ J attitude, you better recheck your type too

and btw normally most of them go away when they realize how austistic this forum is

 

[peoplesuck]

i have rechecked. < that word is fucking horrible btw

*isjoking*

 

[RandomGeneratedName]

yo, ^ not an intp, not even an introverted type. period

Not an INTP, nor even an Introvert? Lol.

You try 40hours up, ADHD meds, massive shift in T preference, and be clawing your way out of an identity crisis for a week+ now.

Just because i'm not locked into a "rigid presentation", doesn't mean INTP isn't my preference.

Identity crisis or not, unless you're going to elaborate on your succinct assessment, I'd appreciate it if you don't try to tell me who I am

 

[RandomGeneratedName]

What Jenny said about technical text and copying chucks of thought process via that.
AND
Not flexing feelings.

It shows... i've not seen one single lol from anyone in the week i've been here, and several people have "pointed out" I'm not an INTP or introvert (above, lol). No... i've just developed my F and in my teens realised how boring sounded so made decision to change.

I can still read and understand what you guys say, I can follow, and I can do the same things as you. (if not better, because I have made an effort to learn/experience in BOTH extremes)

Jenny is a clear example of this. (her answers are better than most, sorry, lol)
Jenny is more articulate than me though, probably because of the amount of data/ideas I put out (like doctors with crappy writing). I've probably gotten a bit lazy with speech (and other reasons)

Any way, I prescribe lightening up, and experiencing the other end of the spectrum.
Anxiety Depression, isn't an INT thing, it's a stuck in your head thing and neglecting the other side.

Oh and for the record, ASD, INTP and "TheManBeyond" comment.
ASD is not a diagnosis for a pity party. I'm sick of seeing that, I can't stand seeing it because it's bullshit bad programming! I got suprise dual dx when I got my ADHD dx, "oh and autism spectrum"... so don't give me that rubbish about "doesn't understand" Clearly I fucking do.


(emotional and all over the place ^ my point proven? lol)

 

[Oddity]

I do, and then I read work by fellow INTJs and understand/remember why we're awesomer

I swear that I've read this exact same sentiment from every single INTJ to post in an INTP forum anywhere.

Why do they all have this burning need to tell us that they are better than we are? Can't you losers just go away?

 

[Architect]

For the record, the title of this thread annoys the shit out of me.

 

[Jennywocky]

Oh great, who went and pissed off Architect garshdurnit?

 

[DrSketchpad]

Oh great, who went and pissed off Architect garshdurnit?

At first I thought nearfantastica, but then I realized Architect was a better answer.

 

[nearfantastica]

This thead took a colourful turn

 

[Jennywocky]

hush, you -- see what you've done??? (or what you almost did but no one actually decided was your fault?)

 

[nearfantastica]

For the record, the title of this thread annoys the shit out of me.

Haha.

hush, you -- see what you've done??? (or what you almost did but no one actually decided was your fault?)

I was aiming for irony with the thread title! No sane person would deliberately piss Architect off

 

[AniOmega]

Not an INTP, nor even an Introvert? Lol.

You try 40hours up, ADHD meds, massive shift in T preference, and be clawing your way out of an identity crisis for a week+ now.

Just because i'm not locked into a "rigid presentation", doesn't mean INTP isn't my preference.

Identity crisis or not, unless you're going to elaborate on your succinct assessment, I'd appreciate it if you don't try to tell me who I am

We have several roles available. I haven't talked to HR but I know of some of the openings.

Thought Kindler

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Compliment and relate to everyone, create a thread in the fun section at least once per week.

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Wildcard

????????

 

[Architect]

I hate self-serving bullshit. Besides, it isn't even true. INTP's are inarticulate fucktards, myself included.