INTPs in primary and secondary school.

[FlowerThug]

I know it is an accepted norm that, INTPs do not live up to their potential for various reasons, but would you say it is the norm that INTPs do not do their homework, or take class notes, and generally have their head in the clouds during class? or probably get sent to the principal's office or get detentions/punishment for academic reasons and not behavioral reasons?

and how often is this misconstrued by the teachers as, the child being academically week or challenged?

 

[Architect]

The accepted norm is that INTPs hate early schooling because of its S nature; repetition, learning facts, drills. Actual performance is a different thing.

We've worked with our 5th grader to do well at school, even though he hates it. We could have sent him to a private school or home schooling, but I purposely thought public school would be best for him to learn how to do things he doesn't like. The result is that he's known for good behavior and they recognize that he is exceptionally bright, he's marked as a "GATE" student (even though I hate supposed Gifted and Talented education for reasons I won't get into). What especially did it is the unusual vocabulary he picked up from reading old books.

So yes it's very possible for INTP's to work within the rules while living outside of them.

 

[FlowerThug]

I think I understand your reservations about private schooling but what about Montessori Schools?

 

[Jennywocky]

The accepted norm is that INTPs hate early schooling because of its S nature; repetition, learning facts, drills. Actual performance is a different thing.

We've worked with our 5th grader to do well at school, even though he hates it. We could have sent him to a private school or home schooling, but I purposely thought public school would be best for him to learn how to do things he doesn't like. The result is that he's known for good behavior and they recognize that he is exceptionally bright, he's marked as a "GATE" student (even though I hate supposed Gifted and Talented education for reasons I won't get into). What especially did it is the unusual vocabulary he picked up from reading old books.

So yes it's very possible for INTP's to work within the rules while living outside of them.

That's kind of my personal experience in the school system. I happen to be a more compliant type, probably because of my upbringing; the "me" of today would likely have been more rebellious in school, but at the time, I wanted to keep things pleasant. I'd basically do the bare minimum (which for me still meant I could get straight A's and go to advanced classes for reading and math), while spending the rest of my brain power on things I was really interested in. I guess at the time, being "smart" was a form of self-identity for me, and part of being smart was getting high grades.

I was usually about five steps ahead of the class during lessons, though, doing something else. I remember in high school, I'd do my math homework in the first ten minutes of the lesson on HOW to do it (i.e., do it before the teacher taught everyone else how), and then spend the rest of the lesson thinking about whatever else I wanted to think about. I wasn't disruptive to the class, and I got my work done, I just did it so fast I had time to do other things.

 

[Architect]

I think I understand your reservations about private schooling but what about Montessori Schools?

We briefly tried Montessori when he was younger and it didn't work out. From the Wikipedia page

Student choice of activity from within a prescribed range of options

Montessori has a naturalistic bent reflecting an idealized picture of childhood that parents have. The activities for the younger grades including things like trays of different materials they take and play with. They get a choice of trays, but the trays only contain things like crayons, or blocks, or sand and sand tools, for example. My kid wasn't interested in any of that. The emphasis is on hands on (S inclined) directed works with a veneer of independence. I think its good for S kids to learn to be self directed, but not for a wildly independent INTP kid. Beyond that it's a bit of a cult.

However we didn't do it extensively. Also the Google founders - and I think Sergey might be an INTP - credited Montessori for at least some of their success. I'm willing to believe there's value there but I don't see it.

There's also Waldorf which is worse in my opinion.

From Ms Architect: Montessori is a form of occupational therapy. Maria Montessori designed it for orphans, who are severely developmentally disabled children (I have friends who adopted orphan kids). It's extremely Sensor oriented. Public school is a slice of the real world and you have to learn how to maintain your individuality within that system, which is the best education for an INXX.

I'd basically do the bare minimum (which for me still meant I could get straight A's and go to advanced classes for reading and math), while spending the rest of my brain power on things I was really interested in.

Yeah, that's what I'm teaching him.

I guess at the time, being "smart" was a form of self-identity for me, and part of being smart was getting high grades.

Agree.

 

[BluePantsMcgee]

I had the exact same experience, do the bare minimum but still pass all classes. Not with flying A's but always high enough to have some space for failure.

Classes which interested me I somehow still did the bare minumun, but just was more attendive to the classes.

I am not entirely sure why I did it this way, may it perhaps be that I just for the fact could and that it was enforced by my 'rebelious' state of mind. Also a cause could be that daydreaming just really was my favorite class.

 

[snafupants]

One memory I have from third grade is arguing with my teacher. The class was given a word problem which asked, something like, what denominations and amounts must X coins be provided the total is Y cents? To her dismay, my answer included a silver dollar and fifty cent piece. I don't even know why I threw those in. I recall arguing with her for five minutes and then (suddenly) not caring.

 

[Mr Write]

There's also Waldorf which is worse in my opinion.

Really? My INFJ sister is seriously interested in becoming a Waldorf teacher. Extended thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Architect]

Really? My INFJ sister is seriously interested in becoming a Waldorf teacher. Extended thoughts would be appreciated.

Ms Architect sez*: That might be a good option, however ... how good is her tertiary (Ti), and is she sure she's an INFJ? Waldorf is probably a good fit for an INFP - I have an INFP friend who grew up and teaches it, and is doing well. If she has good critical thinking skills it might drive her crazy. Steiner had a lot of wack-a-doodle ideas. They type kids by the "humors" (remember those?) Ideas like "if a kid is this phlegmatic, they like red (for example)". It looks like it's free form, but there are many rules, and it invades the home (Architect: I remember this part). Homes of Waldorf kids aren't supposed to have books, for example. Waldorf has cultish elements too.

* Me capturing the Ni flow of ideas from an INFJ, hope it makes sense.

 

[Duxwing]

Ms Architect sez*: That might be a good option, however ... how good is her tertiary (Ti), and is she sure she's an INFJ? Waldorf is probably a good fit for an INFP - I have an INFP friend who grew up and teaches it, and is doing well. If she has good critical thinking skills it might drive her crazy. Steiner had a lot of wack-a-doodle ideas. They type kids by the "humors" (remember those?) Ideas like "if a kid is this phlegmatic, they like red (for example)". It looks like it's free form, but there are many rules, and it invades the home (Architect: I remember this part). Homes of Waldorf kids aren't supposed to have books, for example. Waldorf has cultish elements too.

* Me capturing the Ni flow of ideas from an INFJ, hope it makes sense.

*shudders*

-Duxwing

 

[Lot]

I only did my home work when my mom made me. I remember almost failing English in fourth grade, because I didn't even bother to write one of my book reports. I just copied what was on the back of the book, which wasn't even relevant to the book. Home work is bull shit and it only succeeds and making kids too tired to enjoy the time they have with their parents, which are also too tired, because they work too much and don't know how to relax without completely turning off their brains and minds. Thanks home work! The cycle continues.

I've always hated taking notes and if I did take notes they were bare minimum to trigger my memory of the lecture, that no ones could ever understand them. I had a teach in college get made at me for not taking notes the way she wanted me to. For some stupid reason she made us turn in our notes so she could grade them.

I'v had a few teachers that thought that I was smart but lazy, which is true (the lazy part at least). I had more that seemed to think I was stupid. My mom told me about a parent teacher conference she had with my 5th grade teacher. The teacher had the nerve to ask my mom if I had some form of retardation. Then she told my mom she wouldn't pass me even if I started doing better in class. So technically I fail the 5th grade. My 4th grade teacher ask me straight up in class if I was stupid. Third grade teacher wasn't to fond of me either. I remember not liking my 2nd grade teacher, but turns out she really liked me and went out of her way to push me to do better.

I did get home schooled through 6th and 7th. I mostly waited till my mom left for work and stole her answer books and cheated my way through those grades. While on the topic. I have some friends that home schooled their kids and some that are currently home schooling. If you have the time and patience to work with them it can do wonders. Hell I know a 13 year old that is getting straight A's in the college classes his mom signed him up for. Surprisingly he's an INTP. But with 2 SJ parents (the mother being an oppressive ESFJ) home schooling you it's hard not to over achieve.

I really liked my high school education after I got out of public school. I went to one of those self driven computer schools. I would spend a lot of time dicking around and every coupe weeks I would spend a whole week plowing through my courses. I finished 2 semesters worth of work in a week, once.