Fish and Veggies

[Pyropyro]

I've been semi-lurking on the Vegan thread started a while ago and thought about this thread:

Since I'm getting older and sooner or later the effects of sugar and red meat will catch on to me, I'm currently thinking of switching to only fish, eggs and veggies.

Vegetarian/vegan diets don't appeal to me yet since I'm basically a carnivore for the majority of my life and I also need to get some essential amino acids and fatty acids from what I eat.

Anyone who has some experience in Pescetarian diets? Would you recommend it? Any tips on how to start?

 

[Hadoblado]

I was a Pescetarian for a year. I was really poor, so there wasn't much variety (tuna mostly). Watch out for mercury issues, ensure that you work out a good system for disposing of fish leftovers, and always always always brush your teeth after a fishy meal.

 

[redbaron]

I don't see a reason to exclude fruit and nuts from your diet. Almonds and walnuts are the best for you. You'll feel a lot better for not filling yourself up on grains, meat and dairy.

It's actually a great idea, though careful of excess sardines and tuna...try to eat fresh fish whenever possible.

 

[galaticgoose]

Seems good...except, what does he mean by "effects of red meat"? Red meat is incredibly nutritious, especially when grass-fed and hormone free. The best thing to do would be to eliminate sugars, processed grains and industrial seed oils.

However, if the person (on the vegan board?) still doesn't like the idea of red meat, the best thing he could do would be to continue eating eggs, fatty fish, and veg - but add in good fats: grass-fed butter, coconut oil, olive oil; especially since it'll be hard to actually get enough calories in on a diet such as that.

 

[redbaron]

Red meat is incredibly nutritious, especially when grass-fed and hormone free.

It's also incredibly good at putrefying within the digestive system

Not to knock the rest of the things you're saying though, red meat is just not really healthy for humans at all - it's rich in certain minerals, but they can also be obtained from the right vegetables, nuts, oils etc. though you've already explained that.

 

[r4ch3l]

I've done it all. Pescatarian x gluten/dairy-free is my optimal diet so far.

When I was very, very sick I did the Ann Wigmore protocol strictly for almost 6 months.
I am already an ectomorph and the diet was hard to keep up with; higher carbs to get in calories with greens made me obsessed with food, higher fat was more stable but still tough. I lost too much weight because stuffing myself with either sugar or fat felt intuitively wrong.

imo a diet that optimizes for ease of digestion (blended food/smoothies/fruit for breakfast only), alkalinity (lots of greens), with enough good fat (coconuts & avocados) and adequate protein (fish +/or red meat 1-3x/week as the last meal of the day) is the best. But everyone's body is different. I simply cannot get enough calories or blood sugar stability from a vegan diet, but compared to most I do not eat much meat.

Basically I follow the philosophy of chefahki.com and kimberlysnyder.net/blog minus being vegan (some meat is important in my opinion, but food combining and high greens/alkalinity is more important).

[I have yet to find a website advocating for the combination of intuitive eating + the guidelines I outlined above; most people in the nutrition game are out there to sell an ideology. However I also believe that many of these people have good advice but are scared to admit to/advocate veering from the rules from time to time.]

 

[galaticgoose]

It's also incredibly good at putrefying within the digestive system

Not to knock the rest of the things you're saying though, red meat is just not really healthy for humans at all - it's rich in certain minerals, but they can also be obtained from the right vegetables, nuts, oils etc. though you've already explained that.

Are you referring to the "red meat rots in stomach/colon" myth? That was debunked, along with the China Study

 

[Pyropyro]

I was a Pescetarian for a year. I was really poor, so there wasn't much variety (tuna mostly). Watch out for mercury issues, ensure that you work out a good system for disposing of fish leftovers, and always always always brush your teeth after a fishy meal.

That's also why I was slim during my college days Mercury is indeed an issue here especially due to rampant mining, I'll keep that in mind. I have the garbage disposal taken cared off. Of course

 

[Pyropyro]

I don't see a reason to exclude fruit and nuts from your diet. Almonds and walnuts are the best for you. You'll feel a lot better for not filling yourself up on grains, meat and dairy.

It's actually a great idea, though careful of excess sardines and tuna...try to eat fresh fish whenever possible.

Ah, I forgot about fruits. Yeah I'll include them on my meals. Much tastier than vegetables. As for nuts, they're a bit exotic in my part of the world so I have to find alternatives.

I usually only resort to canned fish when I'm going on hikes. You can't cook in mountains.

 

[Pyropyro]

Seems good...except, what does he mean by "effects of red meat"?

Everything is good in moderation. It is my unnecessarily indulgent consumption of meats and sugars that had made me unhealthy and chubby (thank goodness for exercise keeping some of the weight at bay).

 

[galaticgoose]

Everything is good in moderation. It is my unnecessarily indulgent consumption of meats and sugars that had made me unhealthy and chubby (thank goodness for exercise keeping some of the weight at bay).

If you don't mind me asking, would you post what you eat on a daily basis?

 

[redbaron]

Are you referring to the "red meat rots in stomach/colon" myth? That was debunked, along with the China Study

I am dubious, however I don't really keep up to date with these sorts of things as much as I should

 

[Hawkeye]

Canned tuna contains less mercury than fresh tuna. So if you're gonna have tuna more than once per week, have canned.

 

[galaticgoose]

I am dubious, however I don't really keep up to date with these sorts of things as much as I should

Ah; it just seems to be the study/source people site when talking about red meat. (also, these emoticons are cool, so I'm going to use them seemingly out of context )

 

[Pyropyro]

I've done it all. Pescatarian x gluten/dairy-free is my optimal diet so far.

When I was very, very sick I did the Ann Wigmore protocol strictly for almost 6 months.
I am already an ectomorph and the diet was hard to keep up with; higher carbs to get in calories with greens made me obsessed with food, higher fat was more stable but still tough. I lost too much weight because stuffing myself with either sugar or fat felt intuitively wrong.

imo a diet that optimizes for ease of digestion (blended food/smoothies/fruit for breakfast only), alkalinity (lots of greens), with enough good fat (coconuts & avocados) and adequate protein (fish +/or red meat 1-3x/week as the last meal of the day) is the best. But everyone's body is different. I simply cannot get enough calories or blood sugar stability from a vegan diet, but compared to most I do not eat much meat.

Basically I follow the philosophy of chefahki.com and kimberlysnyder.net/blog minus being vegan (some meat is important in my opinion, but food combining and high greens/alkalinity is more important).

[I have yet to find a website advocating for the combination of intuitive eating + the guidelines I outlined above; most people in the nutrition game are out there to sell an ideology. However I also believe that many of these people have good advice but are scared to admit to/advocate veering from the rules from time to time.]

I don't think I can survive being vegan so I think Pescetarian is the way to go. I tried having a fruit and veggies diet for a few days (for religious reasons) and felt really weak and sickly afterwards.

I enjoy eating coconuts, drinking coconut juice and avocados so incorporating it to my diet would be nice.



Off-topic: Is that you on your new avatar? You're kinda cute.

 

[Pyropyro]

If you don't mind me asking, would you post what you eat on a daily basis?

on an average day well:

• meat (chicken, pork, beef) which is fried or in a vegetable stew.
• 3 cups of rice (one of each meal of the day)
• Fruits (bananas, oranges or apples)
• 2-3 cups of coffee (I'm also searching for alternatives, soya milk looks promising)
• Indeterminate amounts of bread, sweets etc. (I only eat them when they're available or someone offered them, otherwise I don't)

 

[galaticgoose]

on an average day well:

• meat (chicken, pork, beef) which is fried or in a vegetable stew.
• 3 cups of rice (one of each meal of the day)
• Fruits (bananas, oranges or apples)
• 2-3 cups of coffee (I'm also searching for alternatives, soya milk looks promising)
• Indeterminate amounts of bread, sweets etc. (I only eat them when they're available or someone offered them, otherwise I don't)

Your diet isn't actually bad at all - if I were you, I'd possibly cut down on the rice and possibly change the oil (if it's canola, rapeseed, sunflower) to coconut oil/butter/red palm oil; and, of course, get rid of the bread and sweets. As for the alternative for milk, go for coconut milk/sugar-free almond milk: soya is pretty disastrous for the health

 

[Montresor]

Vegetables could be taken raw whenever possible. I saw in a documentary that our digestive systems are "designed" to handle a diet of >50% raw food such as vegetables, and that any less than that "tricks" your body into thinking it's poisoned.

Of course I laughed myself silly but ...?

 

[Architect]

Red meat is incredibly nutritious

Enter the intellectual Hit man ...

Define "incredibly"? Here, I will

Nutritional content of grass fed beef and in depth

What do we have?

• protein
• omega-3
• B3
• selenium
• zinc
• phosphorus
• B12
• choline

In the main a small handful of nutrients.

Now let's look at Kale. Just looking at the macronutrients we see a list of 20 vitamins and minerals, plus fiber, omega-3/omega-6, protein etc.

Now the micronutrients, read that article, I'll just cite the heading of which you see none of these under beef

• Antioxidant-Related Health Benefits
• Anti-Inflammatory Health Benefits
• Glucosinolates and Cancer-Preventive Benefits
• detox-activating isothiocyanates
• Cardiovascular Support
• Other Health-Related Benefits
• Antioxidant and Anti-inflammatory Nutrients
• Fiber and Anti-Inflammatory Omega-3 Fatty Acids
• Kale and its Cancer-Preventing Phytonutrients

Beef contains protein (we get way too much as it causes acidosis) fat (we get way too much as it causes heart disease) and almost no nutrients (way to little as cancer is a fact of life and we need significant anti-oxidents from our diet to prevent it).

 

[Architect]

To OP, if you want to eat over harvested and produced fish, fine - go ahead. Be aware that the supposed benefits (omega-3) of much of our fish is quite lower as most fish are factory farmed these days which lowers that content, plus they play games like pumping the fish full of red water to make it look better. Also be aware of the high mercury content of the fish.

 

[galaticgoose]

Enter the intellectual Hit man ...

Define "incredibly"? Here, I will

Nutritional content of grass fed beef and in depth

What do we have?

• protein
• omega-3
• B3
• selenium
• zinc
• phosphorus
• B12
• choline

In the main a small handful of nutrients.

Now let's look at Kale. Just looking at the macronutrients we see a list of 20 vitamins and minerals, plus fiber, omega-3/omega-6, protein etc.

Now the micronutrients, read that article, I'll just cite the heading of which you see none of these under beef

• Antioxidant-Related Health Benefits
• Anti-Inflammatory Health Benefits
• Glucosinolates and Cancer-Preventive Benefits
• detox-activating isothiocyanates
• Cardiovascular Support
• Other Health-Related Benefits
• Antioxidant and Anti-inflammatory Nutrients
• Fiber and Anti-Inflammatory Omega-3 Fatty Acids
• Kale and its Cancer-Preventing Phytonutrients

Beef contains protein (we get way too much as it causes acidosis) fat (we get way too much as it causes heart disease) and almost no nutrients (way to little as cancer is a fact of life and we need significant anti-oxidents from our diet to prevent it).

Yet protein is essential, and fat does not cause heart disease?

Why not both? One can't live on a diet of purely kale, or purely beef. Ideally, a diet in whole foods (grass-fed meats, veg, fruits, fats, and starchy tubers) eliminates all processed food and toxins. There has been no study that proves red meat causes heart disease, or that we get "way too much protein".

 

[Hawkeye]

Meat was a key food in the evolution of humans. There is no way our brains got to the size they were on a meat free diet.

 

[galaticgoose]

Meat was a key food in the evolution of humans. There is no way our brains got to the size they were on a meat free diet.

This.

 

[Hawkeye]

That being said, I have just made the most delicious salmon teriyaki with garlic baby potatoes and rocket salad.

Spoiler

YUMMY!

 

[Architect]

Yet protein is essential, and fat does not cause heart disease?

Small amounts of protein.

Why not both? One can't live on a diet of purely kale, or purely beef. Ideally, a diet in whole foods (grass-fed meats, veg, fruits, fats, and starchy tubers) eliminates all processed food and toxins. There has been no study that proves red meat causes heart disease, or that we get "way too much protein".

One can live quite well entirely on a plant only diet. Populations that do that live quite long on average on fact. On the other hand you cannot live your entire life solely on meat. You'd go into ketosis then you would probably die of scurvy first.

The only issue in fact in a kale only diet is that you would not be able to get enough calories. Just rounding out with a few extra plants takes care of that. On the all meat side you'd die in a few months, no matter the variety of meat you ate.

 

[Architect]

Meat was a key food in the evolution of humans. There is no way our brains got to the size they were on a meat free diet.

Declarations without evidence won't get you far. Actually a paper was written on this subject in the last year or two, I can dig it up as I read it. Unfortunately the authors reasoning was fallacious, they begged the question (or assumed the answer). Their reasoning was along the lines of "well we developed big brains, and big brains need lots of protein, so we must have eaten a lot of meat". Laughably ridiculous, whales grow enormous brains solely on krill, as do many plant eaters purely on low calorie/low grade food such as grass. Finally brain size is not an indicator of intelligence, either within the human species or across species. It is merely a correlation within the species. Exactly how we developed higher intelligence is a mystery but it clearly is not due to dumb size.

Now in point of fact our digestion is primate derived, which should be obvious but people have romantic notions of cave men. Primates subsist on a diet with <4% meat, all of which is opportunistic. Some primates are fruitarians and eat nothing but. The key evolutionary development was the creation of amalyse producers (starch enzyme breakdown) which allowed our primate ancestors to move beyond the equator.

If we were carnivores like the cats, we'd have many different characteristics (short intestine, hydrochloric acid production, claws, speed, armor, etc). Or if we were true omnivores (ursinus) we'd share characteristics with them (and we don't). The fact is kiddies that we are primates, and while we can eat meat and live to tell about it, it is not doing us any good.

 

[Hawkeye]

Declarations without evidence won't get you far. Actually a paper was written on this subject in the last year or two, I can dig it up as I read it. Unfortunately the authors reasoning was fallacious, they begged the question (or assumed the answer). Their reasoning was along the lines of "well we developed big brains, and big brains need lots of protein, so we must have eaten a lot of meat". Laughably ridiculous, whales grow enormous brains solely on krill, as do many plant eaters purely on low calorie/low grade food such as grass. Finally brain size is not an indicator of intelligence, either within the human species or across species. It is merely a correlation within the species. Exactly how we developed higher intelligence is a mystery but it clearly is not due to dumb size.

Now in point of fact our digestion is primate derived, which should be obvious but people have romantic notions of cave men. Primates subsist on a diet with <4% meat, all of which is opportunistic. Some primates are fruitarians and eat nothing but. The key evolutionary development was the creation of amalyse producers (starch enzyme breakdown) which allowed our primate ancestors to move beyond the equator.

If we were carnivores like the cats, we'd have many different characteristics (short intestine, hydrochloric acid production, claws, speed, armor, etc). Or if we were true omnivores (ursinus) we'd share characteristics with them (and we don't). The fact is kiddies that we are primates, and while we can eat meat and live to tell about it, it is not doing us any good.

You do realise that krill are high in protein right? And whales eat a shed load of them at a time.

Whilst a larger brain may not necessarily indicate more intelligence, humans have the largest Encephalization Quotient (nearly double the value of the next highest animal).

The Encephalization Quotient (EQ) is defined as the ratio of actual brain mass compared to predicted brain mass for an animal of a given size. It is hypothesised to roughly estimate the intelligence of an animal. The second largest EQ belongs to the bottlenose dolphin.


We can digest meat better than grass.

 

[galaticgoose]

Small amounts of protein.

Not a full-grown man, or a growing teenager like me...scrap that, not anyone.

One can live quite well entirely on a plant only diet. Populations that do that live quite long on average on fact. On the other hand you cannot live your entire life solely on meat. You'd go into ketosis then you would probably die of scurvy first.

Some of the healthiest tribes in the world, such as the Maasai or the Inuit, live off primarily fatty meat, milk, and blood - they get plenty of nutrients from organ meats, too. I know of not one culture who has been able to live off a vegan diet. (correct me if I'm wrong)

The only issue in fact in a kale only diet is that you would not be able to get enough calories. Just rounding out with a few extra plants takes care of that. On the all meat side you'd die in a few months, no matter the variety of meat you ate.

Vegan diets are extremely detrimental to one's health. Don't get me wrong: some people do fine on them. That's the minority. Some people eat only meat and fat, and are fine; some people eat mostly fruit, but supplement with fats and red meat once a day, which is also fine. But claiming that we could be fine if we 'just rounded out with a few extra plants' is false, as is the presumption that we'd die off a meat-only diet. Organ meats and brains....

 

[Hawkeye]

I thought this was interesting

"A Year's Exclusive Meat Diet and Seven Years Later" (1935).

The following medical facts regarding Stefansson's life during his explorations are listed:

1. He spent altogether altogether eleven and one-half years within the Arctic Circle.
2. He lived for a number of days, totaling nine years, on an exclusive meat diet.
3. He lived for nine successive months on an exclusive meat diet.
4. He reached his maximum weight while subsisting on meat (fish).
5. His sense of physical and mental well being was at its best during that period of his life.
6. He found that the exclusive meat diet worked as well when he was inactive as when active, and as well in hot weather as in cold.
7. Constipation was never present. One month's entire absence from exercise produced neither constipation nor muscular weakness. (Stefansson avers that not a single case of constipation was observed in 600 exclusively meat-eating Eskimos for a period of three years).
8. His hair thickened, and his scalp became healthier.
9. Tooth decay was apparently much less rapid.

There were no subjective or objective evidences of any loss of physical or mental vigor. The teeth showed no deterioration and gingivitis had disappeared. There was, however, an increase in the deposit of tartar on the teeth of [Stefansson]. Bowel elimination was undisturbed.


Seven years after the meat diet study, the author examined Stefansson again, who apparently had reacquainted himself with some aspects of the Western diet. Instead of eating only meat, he was now eating a breakfast of one egg, bread and coffee, and a dinner and supper consisting of a moderate amount of meat, vegetables, and some cheese. His fruit and milk intake remained negligible.

During this period, Stefansson had put on quite a bit of weight. He now weighed 84 kg, compared with 70.8 kg in 1922 and 72.5 in 1928. His hair was as thick as before, but his gingivitis had returned. Blood pressure was up to 120/80 mm. All in all, the author states Stefansson was in excellent general health. Looking at the numbers, however, it seems that he was doing better on his monotonous carnivore diet.

Source - http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/two-brave-men-who-ate-nothing-but-meat.html

 

[Architect]

Not a full-grown man, or a growing teenager like me...scrap that, not anyone.

Based on what, hearsay? Your protein requirements are quite low and the danger of large amounts of protein is quite clear (acidosis, cancer (read The China Study for the research)) Why do people love protein so much?

Some of the healthiest tribes in the world, such as the Maasai or the Inuit,

What??? Eskimos are an example of a healthy people?

live off primarily fatty meat, milk, and blood - they get plenty of nutrients from organ meats, too. I know of not one culture who has been able to live off a vegan diet. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Hundreds. Peruvian tribes which eat mostly sweet potatoes, the Hunzas who are among the longest lived. Even in the US we have the Seventh Day Adventists who are vegetarian and live longer than average lives.

Vegan diets are extremely detrimental to one's health. Don't get me wrong:

It's so strange, when it comes to diet people will make statements from with complete conviction on the basis of pure ignorance.

Seriously, do a little research, it'll be illuminating.

 

[Architect]

Source - http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/two-brave-men-who-ate-nothing-but-meat.html

Not really. Unscientific and anecdotal. We do know that eating no plants will eventually kill you from scurvy. I don't know how long that will take exactly.

 

[galaticgoose]

Based on what, hearsay? Your protein requirements are quite low and the danger of large amounts of protein is quite clear (acidosis, cancer (read The China Study for the research)) Why do people love protein so much?

Based on a little n=1 experiment. Oh, and The China Study's been debunked~

What??? Eskimos are an example of a healthy people?

Well, strictly speaking, not anymore - not many Inuits eat a traditional diet.

Hundreds. Peruvian tribes which eat mostly sweet potatoes, the Hunzas who are among the longest lived. Even in the US we have the Seventh Day Adventists who are vegetarian and live longer than average lives.

Alright, I'll give you that. Seems as if a little pattern is emerging...

It's so strange, when it comes to diet people will make statements from with complete conviction on the basis of pure ignorance.

Seriously, do a little research, it'll be illuminating.

I have done my research. Thanks for the condescension.

In conclusion, it seems that the best diet is the one that cuts out processed crap and focusses on whole foods. Yet there is no need to demean protein or meat, as it has been proved time and time again to be healthy.

 

[redbaron]

Yet there is no need to demean protein or meat, as it has been proved time and time again to be healthy.

The only information I can find regarding meat being regarded healthy is anecdotal, outdated or indicates that there are perfectly acceptable alternatives to eating meat, which provide all of its health benefits, for none of its detriments.

 

[galaticgoose]

The only information I can find regarding meat being regarded healthy is anecdotal, outdated or indicates that there are perfectly acceptable alternatives to eating meat, which provide all of its health benefits, for none of its detriments.

The only detriments I can think of is eating CAFO meat: saturated fat = heart disease has been disproved.

 

[Hawkeye]

Not really. Unscientific and anecdotal. We do know that eating no plants will eventually kill you from scurvy. I don't know how long that will take exactly.

That is not entirely true.

Fresh meat from animals which make their own vitamin C (which most animals do) contains enough vitamin C to prevent scurvy, and even partly treat it.

Cooking meat greatly reduces it's antiscorbutic properties which is why the perfect steak is rare.

 

[Hawkeye]

Spoiler

 

[Brontosaurie]

The best thing to do would be to eliminate sugars, processed grains and industrial seed oils.

yup!

pretty much all there is to nutrition.

also eliminate dairy.

 

[galaticgoose]

yup!

pretty much all there is to nutrition.

also eliminate dairy.

Eh, I do have some dairy (yoghurt, cheese) - but it's all quality and grass-fed. I don't drink milk; haven't for ages.

 

[Ziast]

Just like to say I agree 100% with Galacticgoose. I have also done my research, along with plenty of n=1.

Humans are not carnivores, but not herbivores either. We are omnivors. The v*gan myth of food rotting in your bowels is a scare tactic. If we didn't digest meat you would be pooping out meat chunks. Contrary, it's not unheard of to see undigested plant matter in there.

 

[Clark]

I don't have any reason why I skip fruits and green veggies from my diet. I think eating essential nutrition is first action towards healthy life. Never skip any essential food group from your diet until you got problems from it.

 

[BloodCountess88]

Eliminate processed foods, problem solved. No more sugar, nor empty carbs.


We actually absorb protein and amino acids differently from plants and animals, faster from animal sources since their composition is similar to our own.

I was vegetarian for over 5 years, and became severely ill because I was not absorbing amino acids. I was under the supervision of a nutritionist and took vitamins. I also lost a lot of muscle mass.

I still don't eat a lot red meat, but I do each chicken and fish and turkey. Just not fried. I only have milk for dairy, I'm not too fond of yogurt and cheese.

 

[Pyropyro]

I don't have any reason why I skip fruits and green veggies from my diet. I think eating essential nutrition is first action towards healthy life. Never skip any essential food group from your diet until you got problems from it.

I forgot the fruits at the first post. My bad.