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Eureka moment regarding trans people.

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QuickTwist

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So I am pretty sure I have figured out why people identify as a different sexual orientation than what they were born with.

Pretty sure it has to do with an inferiority to independence. They desire independence, but don't have the capacity for it. Hear me out. You have to ask yourself what do they get out of it? It doesn't really seem at first glance that the issue would be solved by what they get out of being trans because its so hard to quantify a trans person's thought process. But here's the thing. I have a person in my therapy group who is a man, but identifies as a woman. I've spent a lot of time in this group therapy with him - enough to have a firm handle on how he thinks. The most dominant characteristics that this guy has is that he is very high in Openness and very high in Agreeableness. Now I am not saying this to say all trans people have these traits, BUT I mention it to say that there is an undercurrent in a lack of independence from him. But that's not the full story really. The other part of it is that he just doesn't care about "traditional" ways to seek independence. He could care less if he has a car to get around, for example. So there is a kind of dissonance in him that he doesn't know/have a healthy view of independence and what that looks like. So what does someone like that get out of picking a gender disfunction having to do with identity? Well, they do gain a sense of independence, but here's the real key thing with their independence they gain: they gain independence from society. You see, trans people are completely rebelling from societal norms as a whole -- they are rejecting a hierarchy to a high degree. The natural order of things is something they have an inherent problem with. So rather than take a healthy stance on this to change their environment, they seek to change the one thing no one has any control over, themselves. See the thing about a hierarchy with humans, is that it only works if people have specific roles that they fit into. The trans people are completely rejecting that in a way that is dysfunctional and harmonious only to themselves. IDK why gender specifically plays a role in this, however, I do know that roles in a traditional society are generally separated by male and female at a fundamental level.

So there you have it, my thoughts on why trans people are trans in the first place.
 

Pyropyro

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Hmm... it seems that bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) inside the brain might have a clue about gender issues in trans people.

Not sure about the social influence though since I'm not that versed in your culture.
 

TransientMoment

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If by "trans" we mean "transgender" and if by "transgender" we mean people with a body that appears to be more of the opposite sex than of the one their parts say they are, then I would think the issue is more complex than that. If there are 16 different personality types and 16 permutations of each personality type (rearranging the letters in order of dominance, assuming that means something) and millions of different families, backgrounds, and levels of acceptance within family and community, and innumerable number of influences that have affirmed/confirmed/reaffirmed or destroyed a persons perceptions of themselves as they get older, then... *take a breath* ... I think we can't exactly summarize in one paragraph why anyone feels a particular way about this issue.

Needless to say, I think an INTP would feel quite different about being trans than an INFP, and that's only one letter away - nevermind all of the other stuff I mentioned.
 

washti

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Are you trying resurect forum - which is worthy goal neverless - by claiming trans are sick?
Could you make some things more clear for me:
1. What is capacity for independence? How you measure it? Reversed Helplessness?
2. Why you have to care about traditional ways of indepencence?
3. Are you mean that traditional ways of independance = healthy view of indepencence?
4. Why rejecting social hierarchy = inherent problem?

Again we have this shit about serving others - functional, specific roles. BLAH BLAH Fe BLAH Fe BLAH SOCIEEETY Or maybe its me and my teen-like trans-Fi ;-)
 

redbaron

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No.

People don't fucking "pick" a "gender dysfunction".
 

Hadoblado

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Yay you solved it! Thank fuck for that. I was beginning to feel uncomfortable about the whole thing but now it's k.
 

QuickTwist

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Hadoblado

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So what does someone like that get out of picking a gender disfunction having to do with identity

:storks:

Might not mean what it sounds like it means. It's a mongrel of a sentence. But can't blame anyone for interpreting it that way IMO.

What did you really mean?
 

QuickTwist

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:storks:

Might not mean what it sounds like it means. It's a mongrel of a sentence. But can't blame anyone for interpreting it that way IMO.

What did you really mean?

Well, Obviously, this type of thing isn't decided consciously. They don't consciously go "Oh, I need independence from society so I think I will identify myself as something other than what I was born as." It is more complicated than that. They are obviously dealing with some sort of trauma that happened early in their life - something that had to do with how they perceive themselves. In short, I don't think this is a nature thing but a nurture thing. Think about it this way: If they had no previous knowledge of how a woman is "supposed" to act or a man is "supposed" to act would they really identify themselves as something they really have no knowledge of? I think not. I think there is an element of guilt or shame in people who sexually identify as something other than what they were born with. Also, I want to emphasise that without a specific "norm" of how a man or woman is "supposed" to act, this would make transgender people go away instantly. The problem is things like celebrity magazines and stuff like that that is straight out in your face on how you are supposed to behave. Something like that type of idea must have happened to someone at a key moment in their life for them to identify themselves as transgender (or whatever else).
 

washti

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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by QuickTwist
I don't like trans people because they are almost always more fucked up in the head than I am, which is saying something.
This sums it up the best.
 

QuickTwist

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This sums it up the best.

Completely separate thing. I came up with the idea I wrote in the OP well before making that post on INTPc.
 

redbaron

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No, a lack of a societal norm would NOT remove inherent internalised body dislike/horror.

PLEASE stop making sweeping statements if you don't understand this topic because it's potentially really fucking hurtful.
 

washti

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So your thinking doesnt influence your judgment and vice versa? Interesting.
 

QuickTwist

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No, a lack of a societal norm would NOT remove inherent internalised body dislike/horror.

PLEASE stop making sweeping statements if you don't understand this topic because it's potentially really fucking hurtful.

Well, your summery of what I am saying isn't really fair to me either, so...
 

redbaron

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I wonder why trans people are "fucked up in the head" when such understanding people like QuickTwist are around?
 

redbaron

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Well, your summery of what I am saying isn't really fair to me either, so...

Are you kidding me. You're making sweeping statements about things you obviously don't understand, with potential for being seriously hurtful to others, with literally ZERO evidence to back it up.

Don't start on 'fair'.
 

QuickTwist

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Are you kidding me. You're making sweeping statements about things you obviously don't understand, with potential for being seriously hurtful to others, with literally ZERO evidence to back it up.

Don't start on 'fair'.

I've stated the way I see things. Not going to take it back. But since you have such an issue with the way I see things, I'll just let it die, I guess. No one else seems to see it the same way I do so I guess I am fine shelving this one.
 

washti

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QT. Maybe you can do bigger research about topic (contrasting sources) and come back with more refined thoughts? Let them mature - Like sit on it for week perhaps?
 

QuickTwist

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QT. Maybe you can do bigger research about topic (contrasting sources) and come back with more refined thoughts? Let them mature - Like sit on it for week perhaps?

Hardly any clinical psychologists are going to see things the same way I do because it doesn't paint the patient as a solely innocent being. That said, some of the ideas I stated are somewhat synonymous with what Jordan Peterson's thoughts on Transgender persons is.
 

QuickTwist

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Nice avatar RB, classy.
 

Hadoblado

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@QT
FYI there are a bunch of gibbering fucked up trannies here. I'm not going to go into specifics, but stuff like the OP has been demonstrated to be hurtful to the extent that members have left the forum to avoid it.

Part of the reason I imagine you're being received so harshly is so that it's clear that these people are not unwelcome here, especially when the point of comparison is one persons anecdote fueled uninformed opinion that's corroborated with off-site statements about how fucked up trans people are. I know that I would prefer to deal with one opinion harshly (a minor quibble) than have more friends leave the forum.

BTW, I really don't think you're that fucked up. You seem fairly well adjusted to me.
 

QuickTwist

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@QT
FYI there are a bunch of gibbering fucked up trannies here. I'm not going to go into specifics, but stuff like the OP has been demonstrated to be hurtful to the extent that members have left the forum to avoid it.

Part of the reason I imagine you're being received so harshly is so that it's clear that these people are not unwelcome here, especially when the point of comparison is one persons anecdote fueled uninformed opinion that's corroborated with off-site statements about how fucked up trans people are. I know that I would prefer to deal with one opinion harshly (a minor quibble) than have more friends leave the forum.

BTW, I really don't think you're that fucked up. You seem fairly well adjusted to me.

OK, yeah, that makes sense. Its just like "wut?!?!" when its coming from RB of all people about how hurtful I am being.
 

Jennywocky

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I've stated the way I see things. Not going to take it back. But since you have such an issue with the way I see things, I'll just let it die, I guess. No one else seems to see it the same way I do so I guess I am fine shelving this one.

That's good. Maybe eventually my opinion of your rational skills will have time to recuperate.

If you actually do some research on the topic before engaging it again, that would improve things immensely. Right now you're about on par with fundamental Christianity in understanding gender dysphoria.

OK, yeah, that makes sense. Its just like "wut?!?!" when its coming from RB of all people about how hurtful I am being.

Yeah, go figure. That's a wakeup call, isn't it?
 

QuickTwist

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That's good. Maybe eventually my opinion of your rational skills will have time to recuperate.

If you actually do some research on the topic before engaging it again, that would improve things immensely. Right now you're about on par with fundamental Christianity in understanding gender dysphoria.

Meh.

Yeah, go figure. That's a wakeup call, isn't it?

If by wake up call you mean its astonishing that RB cares so much about this, I'd say yeah, probably. I think hado hit the nail on the head when he talked about there being a lot of Transgender people on this forum.
 

Polaris

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People who are actually traumatised rarely speak of it openly, in specifics, out of fear of being blamed for who they are, or for what happened to them. They struggle enough with their own demons who are constantly telling them there is something wrong with them. These people are usually rejected by their own family and society in general, or they will be if they come out, or talk about their experiences.

It is highly likely these people will not go out of their way to become targets here either.
 

redbaron

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I think you'll find that when people are literally calling any group of people 'fucked up' based on their own very wrong and anecdotal generalisations, that I'm going to tell them to fuck off with it.

I've done it when people bash gays, women, blacks, trans - I don't care. This is entirely separate from and irrelevant to whether in general forum usage I am friendly and caring. Shit like that is just not okay.

It's borderline fucking hateful, because no attempt is even made to be not ignorant, it's just saying ignorant things with no kind of intention to research or understand why people are like this.
 

QuickTwist

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I think you'll find that when people are literally calling any group of people 'fucked up' based on their own very wrong and anecdotal generalisations, that I'm going to tell them to fuck off with it.

I've done it when people bash gays, women, blacks, trans - I don't care. This is entirely separate from and irrelevant to whether in general forum usage I am friendly and caring. Shit like that is just not okay.

It's borderline fucking hateful, because no attempt is even made to be not ignorant, it's just saying ignorant things with no kind of intention to research or understand why people are like this.

Call it empiricism then. I noticed you didn't say Jews. Any reason for that?
 

redbaron

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What empiricism have you brought to this conversation exactly?

Mocking Hitler isn't anti-Jew. Are you human?
 

QuickTwist

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What empiricism have you brought to this conversation exactly?

Mocking Hitler isn't anti-Jew. Are you human?

I've brought my observations, which I talked about in the OP.

Didn't realize it was mocking hitler. Hard to tell what it really means at all. Can totally see someone who is jewish being offended by it tho. Nope, not human.
 

redbaron

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The thing is it takes like all of 15 minutes to google and realise why the wrong things you're saying are wrong. If that. So don't spout a bunch of ignorance and then act like, "oh hey it's just my opinion, mannn" as if it doesn't take some kind of wilful ignorance on your part to reach that conclusion.
 

QuickTwist

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The thing is it takes like all of 15 minutes to google and realise why the wrong things you're saying are wrong. If that. So don't spout a bunch of ignorance and then act like, "oh hey it's just my opinion, mannn" as if it doesn't take some kind of wilful ignorance on your part to reach that conclusion.

I think you mistake my OP for hate when it isn't. Its noting an observation. Nothing more, nothing less. Now you can say my observation isn't representative of reality, but you can't say I didn't observe that.

I looked up something on the internet, which I'm sure a lot of people are glad to hear. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

What I find interesting is this:

Exploration of these questions is relatively new, but there is a bit of evidence for a genetic basis...

They found that the adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria responded much like peers of their experienced gender. The results were less clear with the prepubertal children...

Overall the weight of these studies and others points strongly toward a biological basis for gender dysphoria.

Anyways, I wasn't even going to post anymore in this thread when I told RB I was going to let it die, but people keep dragging me back in here.
 

Black Rose

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Transgenderism is not a reaction to societal pressures. It is a result of biological factors that make a person feel like the sex they are is the wrong one they should have. They want their hips bigger and their face, less rigid. Eyes with longer lashes. Having breasts that their flat chests feel is missing. Both genders can feel like the wrong gender. Transgender is no more about feeling a lack of independence from a society that hunger is. Hunger is a biological condition. Transgenderism is the biological conditions of alienation from your bodies current sex. As a transgender person, you want to be the sex that feels right. Seeking Independent in an oppressive society has little to do with your biological alienation as a trans person. Actually, you are even more marginalized for being a trans person than as a person that is not trans. If they wanted to be less marginalized they would suppress their feeling which does not match up with becoming trans to be less marginalized. A person that wants to change gender is completely doing so because they want to feel the right way which is the way that they should be. It feels wrong to not have breasts or it feels wrong to have them. Wanting a sense of independence will not make a person with a male body get breast implants. Bad feelings of not having breasts will make them get breast implants.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay. I'm going to lock the thread since it seems like OP doesn't want to be dragged in anymore, and it's probably best for everyone involved.

I do have some concerns however:

There is no censorship of ideas, no matter how distasteful, apart from the obvious: this includes, but is not limited to porn, offensive images, spamming/trolling, illegal software links, advertising, and links that don't follow the conversation at hand. These posts may be edited or deleted by a mod, and in all cases the mod will always mark this in the post or thread itself and sign off. However no-one will ever alter another's posts, except in these instances ( or to correct annoying titles ).

I don't think this topic should be censored, and think it would be best if real discussions around this did happen. I don't think QT was being malicious, and it would be a shame if his only exploration of the topic was met with weapon-grade backlash due to his unintentional insensitivity. He tends to genuinely listen and adjust his views. Anyone with ideas about how best to facilitate this is encouraged to supply them to me or another moderator.

Cheers guys.
 

QuickTwist

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Re: INTPf Policy Change

FTR, I don't really understand why my OP for the Trans thing was "offensive". The fact that I basically said Trans people have more mental problems than me was used completely out of context. I even cited evidence to suggest this is true. Also, you should remember that my mother works for Nami and I used to volunteer there and did database entry so I do have enough practical evidence that what I suggest isn't just me pulling something out of my ass.
 

Grayman

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Re: INTPf Policy Change

FTR, I don't really understand why my OP for the Trans thing was "offensive". The fact that I basically said Trans people have more mental problems than me was used completely out of context. I even cited evidence to suggest this is true. Also, you should remember that my mother works for Nami and I used to volunteer there and did database entry so I do have enough practical evidence that what I suggest isn't just me pulling something out of my ass.

They are sensitive and in my opinion not in a healthy way.
 
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