INTx... Am I a P or J?

[Methodician]

@Architect and others have occasionally suggested I may be an INTJ. I've always identified as an INTP...

What are some of the key differences? What are some tell-tale signs of being one or the other of these? What should I read or understand to help reach a conclusion? What are some questions I could answer that would help willing contributors to help me to figure this out?

 

[Base groove]

Poll please.

 

[Methodician]

Poll please.

Done. Just hoping people don't go voting all willy-nilly without a thorough analysis. Right now there's nothing in the thread to go by so please, don't vote! Unless there's some good stuff below this already.

{edit}
Ok if you feel the need to vote, I think there's enough ramblings below I won't be offended by an inadequate examination of evidence (assuming you're taking this seriously)
{/edit}

 

[Jennywocky]

?? Wouldn't those who do vote already have analyzed it to come up with a decision themselves?

I'm not sure why anyone would vote just to vote, without having a reason for their vote.

 

[Brontosaurie]

join the legion

i think you have INTP'ish ways.

maybe it's worth pointing out that INTJ's are more seldom interested in the MBTI, having little regard for its esoteric abstraction and finding little allure in its mysticism and emotional appeal, which is easily dismissed as navelgazing and self-flattery. at least that's my impression. INTP's on the other hand are unusually prone to picking up typology, because it satisfies their Ti as well as helping to illustrate Fe issues and emphasize their relevance from within a comfortable axiomatic framework.

 

[Base groove]

Done. Just hoping people don't go voting all willy-nilly without a thorough analysis. Right now there's nothing in the thread to go by so please, don't vote! Unless there's some good stuff below this already.

Pi-Je

?? Wouldn't those who do vote already have analyzed it to come up with a decision themselves?

I'm not sure why anyone would vote just to vote, without having a reason for their vote.

Ji-Pe

~

 

[Grayman]

?? Wouldn't those who do vote already have analyzed it to come up with a decision themselves?

I'm not sure why anyone would vote just to vote, without having a reason for their vote.

He wants a proper amount of evidence to be examined prior to coming to decision. I am trying to decide on what is proper.

 

[Base groove]

He wants a proper amount of evidence to be examined prior to coming to decision. I am trying to decide on what is proper.

What ever the proper amount is it's clearly much greater in magnitude than the present amount.

Methodican . . . . . . .

 

[Grayman]

@Methodician

Do you prefer historical evidence based on your experiences to determine your own conclusions or do you find it impractical to do such things with what is considred obvious and generally accepted results based on scientific society and professionals who know
their field?

 

[Methodician]

?? Wouldn't those who do vote already have analyzed it to come up with a decision themselves?

I'm not sure why anyone would vote just to vote, without having a reason for their vote.

Maybe not most people in this forum. I'm just dubious about polling people because a lot of people just quickly and intuitively answer and I'm confused enough about my status as it is. I hadn't intended to make a poll out of it but at the request, here it is!

I guess if you've been reading a lot of my posts and already have an opinion formed, by all means vote.

 

[Architect]

You need to get clear on whether you extravert Judgement or Perception and vice-versa. Everybody is a P and a J. Evidence for either please.

 

[Methodician]

@Methodician

Do you prefer historical evidence based on your experiences to determine your own conclusions or do you find it impractical to do such things with what is considred obvious and generally accepted results based on scientific society and professionals who know
their field?

Not entirely sure how to interpret this question but here it goes...

I am a believer in consensus but just because something is widely accepted and rarely questioned won't stop me from questioning it. Consensus helps me form opinions but I treat them as just that, opinions, not facts.

If a professional who "knows their field" holds a strong opinion or view on a topic, I expect them to justify it. Whether or not I fully comprehend the justification, I can make a good intuitive judgement on their eh... 'trustworthyness' of their conclusions by looking at their logic, their train of thought. The more respected they are in their field the less I will question their logic though, up until a certain point. Even einstein's conclusions must be called into question, but not as seriously as Joe-the-physicist, of course.

I hate learning history but I don't think that's what you mean. There are definitely aspects of life where I value the conclusions reached from my own experience over the things I'm told. Especially when there's a lot of subjective interpretation involved, for instance my methods at work differ greatly from my colleagues and they can question it all they want but I get the job done. My diet and exercise is based largely on a greater consensus among people whose opinions I respect but daily, I practice what seems to work. I do what makes me feel (and maybe look) better. I rationalize my own conclusions.

God that was convoluted. Maybe I need more concrete questions...

 

[Jennywocky]

Maybe not most people in this forum. I'm just dubious about polling people because a lot of people just quickly and intuitively answer and I'm confused enough about my status as it is. I hadn't intended to make a poll out of it but at the request, here it is!

I guess if you've been reading a lot of my posts and already have an opinion formed, by all means vote.

I've read some, but not enough to be sure of much.
You seem lucid and flexible enough, with adequate communication skills, while not particularly OCD or demanding... for what all that's worth.

If you want to make it easier for us, please get really freakin' extreme, please.

 

[Base groove]

Maybe not most people in this forum. I'm just dubious about polling people because a lot of people just quickly and intuitively answer and I'm confused enough about my status as it is. I hadn't intended to make a poll out of it but at the request, here it is!

I guess if you've been reading a lot of my posts and already have an opinion formed, by all means vote.

So no poll, next to no information. That's what you started us off with. The poll helps, you just can't Se it yet. You might say it's a work Ni progress.

OH but you're definitely talking about Si in Architect's thread. I'd wager you're ISFJ actually.

 

[Cherry Cola]

The longer you take to decide the more likely you are to be an INTP, by now your Ni should giving you bouts of certainty even if they don't last that long if you have Ni!

 

[Absurdity]

What are some of the key differences? What are some tell-tale signs of being one or the other of these? What should I read or understand to help reach a conclusion? What are some questions I could answer that would help willing contributors to help me to figure this out?

IMO, INTJ vs. INTP:

Uncompromising vision vs. endless possibilities. Difficulty articulating intuitions once they are seen vs. difficulty remaining interested in a topic after it is grasped. Social structures and norms as means to individualistic ends vs. individual means of subverting social structures and norms for social ends (acceptance). Need for material and economic stability vs. need for social esteem. Actualizing your vision in reality vs. making an acclaimed discovery about reality. Adapting reality to self vs. adapting self to reality. Induction vs. deduction. Fate vs. truth. Frustration with inner inscrutability vs. frustration with external obstacles. Quest for true self vs. quest for convergent truth.

... although I am honestly pretty bad at this whole typing thing.

 

[Brontosaurie]

IMO, INTJ vs. INTP:

Uncompromising vision vs. endless possibilities. Difficulty articulating intuitions once they are seen vs. difficulty remaining interested in a topic after it is grasped. Social structures and norms as means to individualistic ends vs. individual means of subverting social structures and norms for social ends (acceptance). Need for material and economic stability vs. need for social esteem. Actualizing your vision in reality vs. making an acclaimed discovery about reality. Adapting reality to self vs. adapting self to reality. Induction vs. deduction. Fate vs. truth. Frustration with inner inscrutability vs. frustration with external obstacles. Quest for true self vs. quest for convergent truth.

... although I am honestly pretty bad at this whole typing thing.

i think you nailed it pretty well

sorry for being such a fanboy today

i'm casting my net of approval

 

[Absurdity]

i think you nailed it pretty well

sorry for being such a fanboy today

i'm casting my net of approval

Approval accepted

 

[Methodician]

So no poll, next to no information. That's what you started us off with. The poll helps, you just can't Se it yet. You might say it's a work Ni progress.

OH but you're definitely talking about Si in Architect's thread. I'd wager you're ISFJ actually.

I thought about opening with a bunch of info about myself but wasn't sure exactly what info would be needed...

Thanks for your input but I really doubt I'm an SF anything. I would be one extraordinary SF though, I'm sure.

The longer you take to decide the more likely you are to be an INTP, by now your Ni should giving you bouts of certainty even if they don't last that long if you have Ni!

I figured I'd get that. I almost wanted to get it out of the way in the opening. Yeah, I'm undecided. INTP's are supposedly known for being indecisive. Therefor I'm likely an INTP.

What are the chances of someone being really balanced between the P and J, swapping between Ne and Ni, Te and Ti, etc...?

 

[Latte]

i think you nailed it pretty well

sorry for being such a fanboy today

i'm casting my net of approval

Being supportive looks good on you Brontosaurie :3

Nourishing differentiation indeed.

 

[Base groove]

I thought about opening with a bunch of info about myself but wasn't sure exactly what info would be needed...

Thanks for your input but I really doubt I'm an SF anything. I would be one extraordinary SF though, I'm sure.

Thanks _____________ but _______________

. . . is not very becoming in speech or social exchange and is extremely destructive to the brainstorming process.

One extraordinary SF? It that like one mediocre NT? Is that the comparison you're drawing? Thanks, but I'll stick with the facts and the evidence.

What are the chances of someone being really balanced between the P and J, swapping between Ne and Ni, Te and Ti, etc...?

Try this one.

 

[Methodician]

IMO, INTJ vs. INTP:

Uncompromising vision vs. endless possibilities.
Both, but probably more Uncompromising vision than endless possibilities. The whole endless possibilities thing can get so overwhelming. I used to really embrace it but have learned to pick a path and do my best to actualize.

Difficulty articulating intuitions once they are seen vs. difficulty remaining interested in a topic after it is grasped.
Probably more the second one. Losing interest in anything I grasp is a constant problem throughout life. Even when it comes to trivial things like a video game. In RPG's I tend to try each class out, beat most of the game with my favorite one, and stop just short of reaching the finish line. In academics I tend to get very lethargic and disinterested in topics that once lit me up like a match, just as I start to really understand them... At work I'm oh, so eager to find a new job even though there's not much to object to at my current one...

Social structures and norms as means to individualistic ends vs. individual means of subverting social structures and norms for social ends (acceptance).
Second one. I do my best to ensure social structures and norms can't stop me from being whatever weird son of a gun I am...

Need for material and economic stability vs. need for social esteem.
Tempted to pick the first one but the only need I have for economic stability is the freedom it confers to reach my goals. It's not about having stuff, it's about making a difference, and it's much easier to make a difference when you can drop a few grand on a big idea. The big idea, though, usually leads to social esteem (or is expected to do so).

Actualizing your vision in reality vs. making an acclaimed discovery about reality.
The first one. I used to want desperately to make a grand discovery in the universe but then I had so many big actionable ideas my focus became on actualizing my vision(s). I want to revolutionize education. I want to invent things. I want to build space ships and mine asteroids... etc... Making fundamental discoveries about reality is an inspiring idea but it just seems like there's so much more that could be accomplished with a focus on my visions. I'm some kind of visionary, or so I'd like to think.

Adapting reality to self vs. adapting self to reality.
Definitely leaning towards the first one. Adapt reality to self. Take the bull by the horns and find a way to make things work. Create an environment that suits my vision. I'm reasonably adaptable though. I'm always willing to change if I discover a flaw in myself. My interest in transhumanism is mostly inspired by a desire to fully and completely adapt myself to reality but in a sense, this is still adapting reality to myself. My body is outside my mind and it's just another thing I want to take control of.

Induction vs. deduction.
I place my trust in deduction but on a daily basis I use more induction just because it's not always convenient to prove every idea as you're ideating... Induction in thought, deduction in retrospect. Induction for concept development, deduction to reach a conclusion. 'Ya know, the scientific method... Okay leaning towards induction here.


Fate vs. truth.
eh? truth sounds cooler.

Frustration with inner inscrutability vs. frustration with external obstacles.
At the moment the first one is definitely on my mind. Damn inscrutable self! Obstacles frustrate the crap out of me but I try to remain optimistic about my ability to either go around them or eliminate them...

Quest for true self vs. quest for convergent truth.
dunno? Convergent truth sounds way cooler.

... although I am honestly pretty bad at this whole typing thing.
Looking to gather a consensus. Not everyone can match Archie on the topic.

 

[Methodician]

You need to get clear on whether you extravert Judgement or Perception and vice-versa. Everybody is a P and a J. Evidence for either please.

That's kind of deep for me right now. It's easy enough to read up on Ni vs Ne. Are you saying figure out whether I have Ne or Te? That, I think, I can manage. Pe vs Je though and you've lost me.

{edit}
Okay, I very strongly identify with the Ne descriptions I can find. Ti seems to fit as well.

I'm wondering... since I was probably always a weak P, do you think environmental factors could have a significant impart on my cognitive function preferences?

Case in point: my work. It requires extensive use of Te and may be shifting me more into the INTJ role. At work, for instance, I have to spend a lot of time creating graphs and charts and defending my logic at the scrutiny of superiors. Ni has become very important to me as well in personal life. As I mature and am no longer in "student" mode, the need to define a clear vision of the future and forge a path becomes more important. I find myself thinking a lot about patterns and impressions and "looking for signs" so to speak.

So, do y'all think I could be flipping over to an INTJ? I wonder which one is my natural state and which one is more forced? Perhaps my youthful admiration of folks like Einstein had a big impact on the way I think, shifting the phenotypic representation of the functions towards INTP when I was naturally more INTJ. Then again, perhaps INTP is my natural state and my current life is pushing my phenotypic representation into the J realm... I didn't used to be so confused about it all. INTP made perfect sense before...
{/edit}

 

[Grayman]

"Do you prefer historical evidence based on your experiences to determine your own conclusions or do you find it impractical to do such things with what is considred obvious and generally accepted results based on scientific society and professionals who know their field?" - Grayman

Not entirely sure how to interpret this question but here it goes...

I am a believer in consensus but just because something is widely accepted and rarely questioned won't stop me from questioning it. Consensus helps me form opinions but I treat them as just that, opinions, not facts.

If a professional who "knows their field" holds a strong opinion or view on a topic, I expect them to justify it. Whether or not I fully comprehend the justification, I can make a good intuitive judgement on their eh... 'trustworthyness' of their conclusions by looking at their logic, their train of thought. The more respected they are in their field the less I will question their logic though, up until a certain point. Even einstein's conclusions must be called into question, but not as seriously as Joe-the-physicist, of course.

I hate learning history but I don't think that's what you mean. There are definitely aspects of life where I value the conclusions reached from my own experience over the things I'm told. Especially when there's a lot of subjective interpretation involved, for instance my methods at work differ greatly from my colleagues and they can question it all they want but I get the job done. My diet and exercise is based largely on a greater consensus among people whose opinions I respect but daily, I practice what seems to work. I do what makes me feel (and maybe look) better. I rationalize my own conclusions.

God that was convoluted. Maybe I need more concrete questions...

The question seems simple enough to me, seems like you just Ne 'd it to death.

My impression of you... INTP who does not like too Ne to much but cannot help it. Hence the INTP part of the equation.

 

[Base groove]

A census taker once tried to test me.

I ate his liver, with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.


How much does this describe you? If you said 5/5, you are INTJ.

 

[Methodician]

A census taker once tried to test me.

I ate his liver, with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.


How much does this describe you? If you said 5/5, you are INTJ.

You're weird? I do my best to avoid cannibalism but if it comes down to it, the liver is a good place to start.

 

[Cherry Cola]

You pick some INTJ answers, but even then your reasons sound like those of an INTP. So like where are you in life age and career wise?

How do you differ now from when you were younger? In MBTI terms.
I ask because experience and emotional maturity may have allowed you to control yourself to the point that your behavior seems pretty J because you've recognized that it's practical to do certain things a certain way. Of course perhaps you're a J who knows the value of not rushing things. It depends on what direction you matured in.

What do you provide at work that others don't? What is your unique strength?

 

[redbaron]

How often do you start a task that you're, "supposed" to be doing, only to complete three tasks that you're not, "supposed" to be doing - yet you still consider more interesting/relevant?

Do you like following tried and true methods for doing things?

 

[Imaginary Numb3r]

@Methodician
I can see the thing only from my personal INTJ perspective but I can tell some things that make be believe that I'm INTJ.

Like: Being obsessed with proof, and actually more of a "creative connector" rathern than an investigator.
Or having problems in telling other people about you new "discovieries", unless you have given it so much thought that you can Tell people everything piece by piece.

The longer you take to decide the more likely you are to be an INTP, by now your Ni should giving you bouts of certainty even if they don't last that long if you have Ni!

Well, it took me quite some time as well until I understood the functions to the point where I could clearly tell my type. Just saying.


Other questions: Do you maybe have problems telling other your "discovieries" unless you really understand it from alpha to omega?

What are the chances of someone being really balanced between the P and J, swapping between Ne and Ni, Te and Ti, etc...?

Your first P and J function can be very close together, but your second will never be able to replace it.
However, when it comes to the secondary and tertiary function, they really can switch places. So you might take that into account as well. But this is mostly the case with S or F dom/aux.
IIRC A common example for this is Sigmund Freud (even though I don't remember his type).


If you can't decide between Ni-Te and Ti-Ne, what about Fi-Se and Si-Fe?


You think you can control your emotions in most cases but can become depressed when you see the wrong things? Like, when you still love your ex and see a photo of her on facebook with a new guy?

That would speak for Fi.

Or not noticing things who who are very obvious to others? -> inf Se.


Hope this was helpful ^^

 

[Methodician]

You pick some INTJ answers, but even then your reasons sound like those of an INTP. So like where are you in life age and career wise?

How do you differ now from when you were younger? In MBTI terms.
I ask because experience and emotional maturity may have allowed you to control yourself to the point that your behavior seems pretty J because you've recognized that it's practical to do certain things a certain way. Of course perhaps you're a J who knows the value of not rushing things. It depends on what direction you matured in.

What do you provide at work that others don't? What is your unique strength?

I'm pretty sure I can answer the first quite succinctly: I am now more J and was then more P. However, I strongly suspect that all that J-action is just what you've described. I've learned some practical behaviors that appear more J. For instance, people trust your ideas less if you're always talking in speculatives and refusing to give concrete answers. State your opinions in the form of facts and people suddenly listen. Since my opinions are usually more factual than those of people who talk that way, I've learned to just fudge it.

What I provide at work that others don't is creativity and ingenuity. I solve problems, improve processes, and find new, more efficient ways of getting the same old things done. My work is really restrictive though. I'm mostly just doing Te things: creating reports and charts, dealing with lots of data, justifying my logic for superiors/clients, etc...

 

[Methodician]

How often do you start a task that you're, "supposed" to be doing, only to complete three tasks that you're not, "supposed" to be doing - yet you still consider more interesting/relevant?

Quite frequently. It's my way...

Do you like following tried and true methods for doing things?

No. That's pretty boring plus there's usually a better way. But wait, do INTJ's like following tried and true methods? I wouldn't think so... Not sure.

 

[Methodician]

@Methodician
I can see the thing only from my personal INTJ perspective but I can tell some things that make be believe that I'm INTJ.

Like: Being obsessed with proof, and actually more of a "creative connector" rathern than an investigator.

Yeah I can see that. I tend to ask others [mostly ST types] a lot of questions, trying to figure out what they know and how right they are without getting into all the details, just looking for insights on how things really work. Been learning a lot about diet and nutrition lately. Lots of data heads out there with all their own theories but I'm forming my own synthesis sans the data overload. They're all focused narrowly into some specific cellular signaling pathway or a certain metabolic process and I feel like I'm needed to gather all the conclusions and formulate a bigger-picture synthesis.

As far as I know that's pretty NT but is it a P or a J?

Other questions: Do you maybe have problems telling other your "discovieries" unless you really understand it from alpha to omega?

Hmmm... I'm thinking the answer is no? When I really "understand from alpha to omega" I tend to irritate most people because they ask some little question and I won't shut up with all the answering I'm doing. When I just have a strong hunch about something, I make it utterly clear that I don't know what I'm talking about, so it's easier to explain without sending people down the wrong path.

If you can't decide between Ni-Te and Ti-Ne, what about Fi-Se and Si-Fe?

I shall look further into this...

You think you can control your emotions in most cases but can become depressed when you see the wrong things? Like, when you still love your ex and see a photo of her on facebook with a new guy?

I'm not very in touch with my feelings. It's hard to know what it really means or where it's coming from unless I can logically trace my chemical issues back to a specific cause. Usually I end up attributing it to something physical such as food/exercise, whether that be correct or not

Hope this was helpful ^^

I think so... Thanks again to all who would help me figure myself out.

 

[Cherry Cola]

INTJs like following true and tested methods if they've figured out that those methods are the best, especially if they came up with the methods themselves. They really like coming up with methods and making them true and tested methods that are the best.

Just one more question, what would you like to do at work assuming that you don't switch field just your tasks?

 

[Methodician]

INTJs like following true and tested methods if they've figured out that those methods are the best, especially if they came up with the methods themselves. They really like coming up with methods and making them true and tested methods that are the best.

Just one more question, what would you like to do at work assuming that you don't switch field just your tasks?

That's a tough one since I fantasize about switching fields every day. I work in the purchasing department at a contract electronics manufacturer working mostly on military contracts. Sounds kind of cool but I spend my days working with data, spreadsheets, coding, and browsing the web. I guess in my current field there's just management and what I'm doing and I have no interest in managing the purchasing dept. I have a great deal of autonomy, nobody bothers me, and I can complete the task in my own way... I'd just stick with what I'm doing.

In another field, I may consider a management roll. Better yet I'd like to be the visionary. I want to create amazing things with amazing people, but I have a dream and it's hard to fulfill it without being the proprietor/leader. Trouble is, I'm not exactly a natural leader, hence my interest in developing self-managing corporate structures.

 

[Cherry Cola]

You're an INTP fosho methinks

 

[Base groove]

I shall look further into this...

Oh SURE somebody ELSE suggests ISFJ and suddenly you're gonna look into it. I called it what like, 10 (maybe 20) posts ago, and you were all like... haha I'm too exceptional for that.

INTJs like following true and tested methods if they've figured out that those methods are the best, especially if they came up with the methods themselves. They really like coming up with methods and making them true and tested methods that are the best.

This is truth.

The argument that INTJs like tried and true methods gives very little or no credence to the dominant function of INTJs and instead focuses on that auxiliary Te.

NEWS people: auxiliary functions are NOT strongly differentiated from the tertiary in either orientation or attitude so if you're going to stereotype focus on the dominant.

 

[redbaron]

Oh SURE somebody ELSE suggests ISFJ and suddenly you're gonna look into it. I called it what like, 10 (maybe 20) posts ago, and you were all like... haha I'm too exceptional for that.

Pretty sure he means he'll look into the possibility of wether he has SiFe or FiSe as a determinant to figure out whether or not he's INTP or INTJ, and not in terms of being dominant/aux functions.

 

[Polaris]

Would this help?

INTP:

Spoiler

The theme for INTPs is designing and configuring.
Talents lie in grasping the underlying principles of something and defining its essential qualities.
Seek to define precisely and bring coherence to systems based on the pattern of organization that is naturally there.
Easily notice inconsistencies.
Enjoy elegant theories and models for their own sake and for use in solving technical and human problems.
Interested in theorizing, analyzing, and learning.
Thrive on exploring, understanding, and explaining how the world works.

INTP - Pattern of Processes
​

ROLE PROCESS SNAPSHOT

THE PRIMARY PROCESSES

​

-Leading Introverted Thinking Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles

-Supporting Extraverted iNtuiting Interpreting situations and relationships and pickup meanings and interconnections to other contexts

-Relief Introverted Sensing Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data

-Aspirational Extraverted Feeling Connecting and considering others and the group

THE SHADOW PROCESSES

​

-Opposing Extraverted Thinking Segmenting, organizing for efficiency, and systematizing

-Critical Parent Introverted iNtuiting Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects

-Deceiving Extraverted Sensing Experiencing and acting in the immediate context.

-Devilish Introverted Feeling Valuing and considering importance, beliefs, and worth

INTJ:

Spoiler

The INTJ theme is strategizing, envisioning, and masterminding.
Talents lie in defining goals, creating detailed plans, and outlining contingencies.
Devise strategy, give structure, establish complex plans to reach distant goals dictated by a strong vision of what is needed in the long run.
Thrive on putting theories to work and are open to any and all ideas that can be integrated into the complex systems they seek to understand.
Drive themselves hard to master what is needed to make progress toward goals.

INTJ - Pattern of Processes
​

ROLE PROCESS SNAPSHOT

THE PRIMARY PROCESSES

​

-Leading Introverted iNtuiting Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects

-Supporting Extraverted Thinking Segmenting, organizing for efficiency, and systematizing

-Relief Introverted Feeling Valuing and considering importance, beliefs, and worth

-Aspirational Extraverted Sensing Experiencing and acting in the immediate
context.

THE SHADOW PROCESSES

​

-Opposing Extraverted iNtuiting Interpreting situations and relationships and pickup meanings and interconnections to other contexts

-Critical Parent Introverted Thinking Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles

-Deceiving Extraverted Feeling Connecting and considering others and the group

-Devilish Introverted Sensing Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data

From this site, it's pretty helpful: http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16Types/16Types.cfm

On a tentative note, you do strike me more as a Ti-dom than a Ni-dom.

Although this confuses me a bit:

Better yet I'd like to be the visionary.

You would like to be. Critical parent (shadow Ni)?

Trouble is, I'm not exactly a natural leader, hence my interest in developing self-managing corporate structures.

From the INTJ description: "Devise strategy, give structure, establish complex plans to reach distant goals dictated by a strong vision of what is needed in the long run. "

Hmmm, still, Ti seems more 'natural' in you, as in the preferred primary function.

 

[Base groove]

Pretty sure he means he'll look into the possibility of wether he has SiFe or FiSe as a determinant to figure out whether or not he's INTP or INTJ, and not in terms of being dominant/aux functions.

Yes indeed thank you.

Pretty sure he doesn't know enough to know what he really means but I was going to try to keep that one to myself.


Wait... you meant, the other guy. K I'm with ya.

 

[Absurdity]

Honestly the fact that you included a poll is evidence enough for me.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

The argument that INTJs like tried and true methods gives very little or no credence to the dominant function of INTJs and instead focuses on that auxiliary Te.

NEWS people: auxiliary functions are NOT strongly differentiated from the tertiary in either orientation or attitude so if you're going to stereotype focus on the dominant.

^ This, the stereotype is deep. INTJs are definitely misunderstood but it's just another example of how P/J is poorly constructed in MBTI.

 

[Imaginary Numb3r]

^ This, the stereotype is deep. INTJs are definitely misunderstood but it's just another example of how P/J is poorly constructed in MBTI.

@Offtopic

What you mean with P/J being construced poorly? While I think it's confusing at first, it makes perfectly sense.

 

[Methodician]

Oh SURE somebody ELSE suggests ISFJ and suddenly you're gonna look into it. I called it what like, 10 (maybe 20) posts ago, and you were all like... haha I'm too exceptional for that.

I didn't interpret @Imaginary Numb3r as suggesting that I was an ISFJ, or any sort of SF. I think they were suggesting I ask myself whether my subordinate functions are Xe-Yi or Ye-Xi...

While I may view myself as an exceptional individual I certainly don't attribute that to my MBTI status. There are plenty exceptional individuals that have S's and F's mixed in, even straight up ESTx...

 

[EyeSeeCold]

@Offtopic

What you mean with P/J being construced poorly? While I think it's confusing at first, it makes perfectly sense.

MBTI was designed as a career assessment tool, and J/P was used as the main determinant of that. Thus J/P was retrofixed(for lack of a better word) to be a dominant influence in one's type.

This is problematic because types with dominant introverted perceiving functions become largely known (and misunderstood) for their extraverted judging functions. Same thing goes for the dominant introverted judgers, but the previous topic was of INTJs.

So INTJ being Ni-Te type, is stereotyped as being highly appreciative of or capable in the same world that ENTJs and ESTJs exist in, which could only be partially true because Te is less differentiated than its dominant Ni which typology should really be looking at.

IMO the most naturally similar types to INTJ are ENFP(NeFi), INFJ(NiFe) and ISTJ(SiTe).

 

[Methodician]

Honestly the fact that you included a poll is evidence enough for me.

Evidence enough of what?

FYI I included the poll at the request of a poster. Though I'm not regretting it. Nice to see the cumulative opinion of contributors summarized...

 

[Absurdity]

Evidence enough of what?

FYI I included the poll at the request of a poster. Though I'm not regretting it. Nice to see the cumulative opinion of contributors summarized...

Something of a joke along the lines of, "An INTJ wouldn't care about poll results."

 

[Cherry Cola]

Why would coming up with methods and deciding which are the best not involve Ni? It does, INTJs are long range thinkers, they take more things into account when judging and/or coming up with a method than do any other type. As is the case with systems, indeed anything that is a map for action. The fact that action is urged via Te does not exclude Ni, it's quite natural.

 

[Methodician]

Would this help?

INTP:

Spoiler

The theme for INTPs is designing and configuring.
Talents lie in grasping the underlying principles of something and defining its essential qualities.
Seek to define precisely and bring coherence to systems based on the pattern of organization that is naturally there.
Easily notice inconsistencies.
Enjoy elegant theories and models for their own sake and for use in solving technical and human problems.
Interested in theorizing, analyzing, and learning.
Thrive on exploring, understanding, and explaining how the world works.

INTP - Pattern of Processes
​

ROLE PROCESS SNAPSHOT

THE PRIMARY PROCESSES

​

-Leading Introverted Thinking Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles

-Supporting Extraverted iNtuiting Interpreting situations and relationships and pickup meanings and interconnections to other contexts

-Relief Introverted Sensing Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data

-Aspirational Extraverted Feeling Connecting and considering others and the group

THE SHADOW PROCESSES

​

-Opposing Extraverted Thinking Segmenting, organizing for efficiency, and systematizing

-Critical Parent Introverted iNtuiting Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects

-Deceiving Extraverted Sensing Experiencing and acting in the immediate context.

-Devilish Introverted Feeling Valuing and considering importance, beliefs, and worth

INTJ:

Spoiler

The INTJ theme is strategizing, envisioning, and masterminding.
Talents lie in defining goals, creating detailed plans, and outlining contingencies.
Devise strategy, give structure, establish complex plans to reach distant goals dictated by a strong vision of what is needed in the long run.
Thrive on putting theories to work and are open to any and all ideas that can be integrated into the complex systems they seek to understand.
Drive themselves hard to master what is needed to make progress toward goals.

INTJ - Pattern of Processes
​

ROLE PROCESS SNAPSHOT

THE PRIMARY PROCESSES

​

-Leading Introverted iNtuiting Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects

-Supporting Extraverted Thinking Segmenting, organizing for efficiency, and systematizing

-Relief Introverted Feeling Valuing and considering importance, beliefs, and worth

-Aspirational Extraverted Sensing Experiencing and acting in the immediate
context.

THE SHADOW PROCESSES

​

-Opposing Extraverted iNtuiting Interpreting situations and relationships and pickup meanings and interconnections to other contexts

-Critical Parent Introverted Thinking Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles

-Deceiving Extraverted Feeling Connecting and considering others and the group

-Devilish Introverted Sensing Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data

From this site, it's pretty helpful: http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16Types/16Types.cfm

On a tentative note, you do strike me more as a Ti-dom than a Ni-dom.

Although this confuses me a bit:

You would like to be. Critical parent (shadow Ni)?


From the INTJ description: "Devise strategy, give structure, establish complex plans to reach distant goals dictated by a strong vision of what is needed in the long run. "


Hmmm, still, Ti seems more 'natural' in you, as in the preferred primary function.

I do think this was very helpful... Although I resonate with both Te and Ti (Te is how I tackle problems/tasks, Ti is the contemplative me... perhaps the one that comes across more in a forum like this)


This resonates strongly with me: The INTJ theme is strategizing, envisioning, and masterminding.

This too, but not quite as strongly: The theme for INTPs is designing and configuring.

Then again I spend a lot of time engaged in "designing and configuring" so maybe like you said, "the critical parent" could be influencing my view.

I'd say the body of the INTP description fits me well. Then we get to the functions... I'm a very N person and for whatever reason, Ne functional descriptions... well, to be perfectly honest I have trouble wrapping my head around the idea. The Ni descriptions however immediately click. Te makes a lot of sense to me too and I seem to use it frequently as a "function"...

I still feel like I alternate. Sometimes the J comes out in me... and all that stuff in the INTJ description suddenly clicks. Usually I'm more laid back and INTP, when shit don't gotta git dun.

Here's another one that sticks out as definitely me (though perhaps a more recent development)
Drive themselves hard to master what is needed to make progress toward goals.

All this resonates strongly:

Spoiler

Enjoy elegant theories and models for their own sake and for use in solving technical and human problems.
Interested in theorizing, analyzing, and learning.
Thrive on exploring, understanding, and explaining how the world works.

My convoluted conclusions:

Spoiler

Maybe I'm an INTP with a J streak, where my dominant functions remain the same but all my functions can swap their i/e from time to time. I keep asking about peoples' thoughts on someone switching back and fourth or being both but people seem to avoid the question for the most part.

I'm pretty deeply N and the Ni functional descriptions always fell right. That's me 80+% of the time. But taken on the whole, I feel like I fit better into the INTP pigeonhole. But then Ne and Si just don't click with me. I never seem to really "get" those descriptions wherever I read them.

Ne, overall, just never makes sense to me when I read the descriptions while Ni seems just right, at least with how I perceive myself. I'm not very feely in general but I have to say Fi sounds right...

So, I'm still on the fence. INTP overall descriptions seem to fit me well but the INTJ "theme" is a good fit (though as you've pointed out that may just be how the critical parent wants me to see myself)...

Also, while the overall INTP descriptions tend to sit well with me, the INTJ descriptions don't feel far off and when I really analyze the functions one by one, I feel more in the J side of things.

Could it be that I come across completely INTP to everyone, including myself, but @Architect saw through it to my core? Or is everyone right and Architect just got a false hunch?

Perhaps we will never know. I've learned so much through this thread but yet I might just call myself INTx.

 

[Methodician]

I'm an INTx guys... I'm pretty convinced at this point that all my e/i orientations can periodically flip to accomodate different situations. I always seem to remain very INT, but that could be NeTi or TeNi in different situations or moods...

On the whole, I probably better represent the INTP type, maybe with a megalomanic, hyperambitious side that can come across very J.

I've learned so much through this thread and yet I remain a lost and confused INTx...

My sincere apologies to any of you who were hoping for some sense of closure. Rest assured though, don't mind its lack. The INTP in me says "it could be either, Maybe I'll stumble across more information..."

 

[Cherry Cola]

what is the megalomaniac hyperambitious side? : O