Split : typism and critique of Inquisitor derail from [MMPI-2 test]

[Cherry Cola]

How people see you *is* your personality. People don't need to read books to know what they see or feel. Human nature is the ultimate reality. It doesn't matter if the math says that bumble-bees can't fly, you never blame nature for not following stupid math predictions ... and you don't blame human nature from giving you feedback that contradicts what you thought of you. In this case you are getting it from multiple source (which should be a gift to be cherished). Reality trumps theory any day and Sunday.

In this case the collective people's perception is the bottom line; the culmination of all what personality typing is trying to accomplish. If *that* reality suggests that you are not acting INTP (and you are more like an ISTJ), then its the absolute and ultimate feedback. Your own perception of you is irrelevant. Calling others ignorant only reveals your own detachment or delusional state of grandiose self imagery.

Shouldn't have said that part about the bumblebees, it's gonna set off alarms. And there's the fact that you kind of imply that typology is purely behavioristic which is not true, that's definitely going to get you lumped into the "people without a clue aka 99% of everyone on intpforum"-cagetory. Now you've just confirmed his statement that people here don't know nothing about ISTJs.

Because you totally need to have read typological litterature to be able to spot obvious ISTJ traits which are available in a million descriptions online, you totally can't do that by reading a fuckton of online articles about functions, many written by actual experts who have read books and in some cases published their own, looking at a bunch of different descriptions of the same phenomenon and forming your mental imagery from the sum of these via rational thought, and then discussing these online for years is totally not enough to have a clue about what an ISTJ is. But if you read one or two books you will be magically granted cognitive prowess, even if all you are able to do is recite facts and you get totally lost whenever someone says something that's got just a tiny bit of original thought in it about typology, you will still be the guy with the clue and all the others will be idiots, just put in the work mate!

The last post seriously looks like a very intentional effort to sound as textbook ISTJ as possible. And it's not just the views, its the friggin manners, the instinctual distrust of others, and the way he just takes to authority like a recently divorced alcoholic to the bottle whenever the opportunity presents itself. The way its always other people, and never himself, neverending excuses for his behavior even when gently pointed out in a nice tone by pleasant people (see the responses to gopher in this thread and the response to Fukyo here: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=23283)

Maybe the guy is just a benevolent narcissistic INTP who sucks at communication.. but then again if going by what he's written here, which is the available data then ISTJ is a better fit and a simpler explanation of what the fuck is going on everytime Inquisitor makes a post. Less of a clue about shit in general, and less understanding of human psychology in general must be difficult to find so aptly demonstrated.

Well irregardless of whether he's a troll, istj, or intp with narcissism, at least it can be safely said that he's a fucking asshat.

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

How people see you *is* your personality

thats not true

 

[Attreyu]

... And there's the fact that you kind of imply that typology is purely behavioristic which is not true, that's definitely going to get you lumped into the "people without a clue aka 99% of everyone on intpforum"-cagetory. Now you've just confirmed his statement that people here don't know nothing about ISTJs.

He said we are all on the ignore list ... so ... we can speak freely

Well, arguably, behavior is what establishes social connectivity in a social species, in which case the perceived or outward compatibility supercedes any subjective conection. Personality is irrelevant without people witnessing it; the same way that air vibrations from a falling tree in the forest are irrelevant without brains nearby to process them as sound.

But, seriously, I only joined a few days and did not have an objective to login to a forum for the sole purpose of picking on someone. My observations are as impartial as they can be (don't even know the real name of the person). It takes a certain something of something to ignore multiple feedback and keep holding on to an illusion while calling other haters or ignorant.

Somehow I feel he enjoys this kind of attention ... so I am suspecting 'trolling' might be one way of putting (even he doesn't know it yet)

 

[Attreyu]

thats not true

Sure it is ... ultimately what happens inside your brain is not as important. Your brain is there to calculate survival and your outward personality is your minds output towards interfacing with reality (ie. society).

It doesn't matter if your brain sees purple internally ... as long you keep calling it red at the same time as everyone else for the same stimulus.

It doesn't matter if you have a million dollars under the mattress, which you never spend. Bottom line is you lived behaving poorly and died behaving poorly.

 

[Black Rose]

Persona - lity
Persona is a mask we show others.
Temperament is more accurate to defining character.
Character is based on the accumulated choices you have made in life.
Normally your reactions will follow from your temperament which will define your character in future life events.

 

[Jennywocky]

He said we are all on the ignore list ... so ... we can speak freely

Well, he's been on my Ignore list, as he surmised (and yeah, it wasn't necessarily personal, neither of us really cared about continually clashing) but it doesn't mean I don't peek at some of his posts anyway.

Well, arguably, behavior is what establishes social connectivity in a social species, in which case the perceived or outward compatibility supercedes any subjective conection. Personality is irrelevant without people witnessing it; the same way that air vibrations from a falling tree in the forest are irrelevant without brains nearby to process them as sound.

yeah, I got what you're saying. It does depend on how the situation is framed, but definitely there is a "me" as it is perceived by others and/or in a communal setting, and it doesn't necessarily have to match with my own internal awareness. In my internal world, certain data is more important ("... my motivations...") and other data (like external behavior) less; but from another person's perspective, all they know is what passes escape velocity of my internal self to be perceived by their senses. And in another sense, all that internal motivation shit is irrelevant because it doesn't change my particular impact in relationship to a community.

(As an odd comparison, it's kind of like arguing about criminal justice -- yeah, maybe the crook was abused when he was a kid, or he doesn't mean to hurt people, but that doesn't change the reality of what letting him run free entails, so we lock him up anyway. Both realities can exist, but society will look at it from the latter. )

But, seriously, I only joined a few days and did not have an objective to login to a forum for the sole purpose of picking on someone. My observations are as impartial as they can be (don't even know the real name of the person). It takes a certain something of something to ignore multiple feedback and keep holding on to an illusion while calling other haters or ignorant.

Fair enough. you're about as "fresh" a set of eyes as we could have at the moment.

Somehow I feel he enjoys this kind of attention ... so I am suspecting 'trolling' might be one way of putting (even he doesn't know it yet)

Stimulation can be appreciated even on a subconscious level... just needing something to respond to, especially for reactive personalities.

But you know what they say -- bad press is better than no press.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Sure it is ... ultimately what happens inside your brain is not as important. Your brain is there to calculate survival and your outward personality is your minds output towards interfacing with reality (ie. society).

It doesn't matter if your brain sees purple internally ... as long you keep calling it red at the same time as everyone else for the same stimulus.

It doesn't matter if you have a million dollars under the mattress, which you never spend. Bottom line is you lived behaving poorly and died behaving poorly.

Man you're in with the logical positivists when it comes to theories of consciousness, a behaviorist through and through!

That's cool tho, but it makes no sense because mbti is very much not a behavioristic system for describing personalities. MBTI is all about looking at behavioral patterns over time and then rationalizing about until you come up with internal motivations for those patterns which then in turn start to form the building blocks for the cognitive functions and well.. you just aren't simply what you seem to be when talking MBTI. It's about figuring out what goes on inside. The behavior is context dependent and the same behavior can have different motivations and a different frequency of occurence and all that stuff is relevant when trying to type someone. You can't just say that someones personality is determined by how others perceive them, cause then you're not typing via MBTI, you're typing via a behavioristic framework that is quite alien to- and incompatible with MBTI. Plus the type of a said person doesn't depend on the perceptive faculties of others as it is primarily an internal and not an external matter.

IMHO tho, ISTJ's -generally speaking- really do act out their type. Plus in the case of Inquisitor, its not just the act, that makes him ISTJ its the fact that it is -IMHO- the most probable explanation of his behavior. Trying to make sense of why he'd write the way he does if he's an INTP requires loftier and heftier rationalizations than doing the same with ISTJ. Hence, Occhams thingy; therefore ISTJ or troll or both.

But if you apply your line of reasoning to types with more faceted ways of behaving, say for instance some Fe type, then it wont work, because their behavior will be instinctually altered in accordance with the context too a much larger degree than that of an ISTJ. Similar problems with highly introverted people, they might just be showing you the tip of the iceberg. Similar problems with most types in fact.

 

[The Gopher]

Well I think you completely missed or ignored what I said so I'll make it very simple. I was saying in this overall case personality doesn't matter and knowledge of personality doesn't matter. Ignore the ISTJ thing for a moment. (although listen to cherry as he has read everything iirc)

If a dog walks into a bunch of ducks and there is a reaction because of it the ducks don't need to read the fundamentals of ducking to know something's up. Of course what could be happening he is a black duck walked into a bunch of ducks that have only been orange however at the very least that indicates the duck isn't orange or "normal"

All I'm saying is you should look at this and go "Oh I wonder why that is" rather than going "everyone's wrong".

 

[Reluctantly]

ITT

INTPs and their Proxy Battles,
sidestepping the elephant,
makin it grow,
fighting to berate,
not dealing with the points,

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

Who's the elephant

 

[Reluctantly]

Always the who,
and not the what.
Live on elephant.
Live long

 

[Grayman]

@Gopher

I think it interesting that he tested INTP on many online tests; here are some thoughts...

1) I think a lot of people rely on tests to determine their MBTI assignment. Even disregarding MBTI. Because the tests are often consistent in their questions and their placement I think it is safe to say that people who have tested a particular type are likely to have a lot in common with others who tested as that same type irregardless of what their actual type may be.

2)These tests are based on the perspective we have of ourselves and not on how others perceive us.


There are only two conclusions I can see in this:

1) He shares a lot of traits with the INTP personality but is fundamentally a different personality. (basically the opposite of what you suggested)

2) His view of himself is very different from the views others have of him.

 

[Inquisitor]

Well I think you completely missed or ignored what I said so I'll make it very simple. I was saying in this overall case personality doesn't matter and knowledge of personality doesn't matter. Ignore the ISTJ thing for a moment. (although listen to cherry as he has read everything iirc)

If a dog walks into a bunch of ducks and there is a reaction because of it the ducks don't need to read the fundamentals of ducking to know something's up. Of course what could be happening he is a black duck walked into a bunch of ducks that have only been orange however at the very least that indicates the duck isn't orange or "normal"

All I'm saying is you should look at this and go "Oh I wonder why that is" rather than going "everyone's wrong".

I get your point. I suspect the reason goes back to that thread I started from way back on the attractiveness of western women. I have my views on that subject, but I shouldn't have aired them here. It pretty much wounded/infuriated several of the regulars. Add to that my generally conservative political views (in a forum whose regulars are mostly liberals-at least my that's my impression), my firm beliefs regarding psychological types, and my declarative writing style, it's no surprise some people are not happy with me...but I don't interact with those people anymore so

 

[Minuend]

I don't think anyone cares about a thread from months and months ago. The reasons people react are quite simply, like most have already pointed out, that you tend to dismiss people based on age, type or lack of perceived authority in whoever you write to. I can't even remember what was discussed in the thread you're referring to.

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't think anyone cares about a thread from months and months ago. The reasons people react are quite simply, like most have already pointed out, that you tend to dismiss people based on age, type or lack of perceived authority in whoever you write to. I can't even remember what was discussed in the thread you're referring to.

I openly dismissed one person based on age: Hado, and I had good reason to do that. He and I have since buried the hatchet so to speak via PM. I have only ever dismissed someone based on type once, and that was 8151147. It's something I regret doing, and have never done it since (back in July). I call people out on their interpretations of type dynamics when it's clear they don't really understand the basics. They don't like that.

 

[Seteleechete]

I still care about that thread... but I am just annoyed it was closed more than anything else(since I don't feel the discussion ever got concluded).

 

[Jennywocky]

I don't think anyone cares about a thread from months and months ago. The reasons people react are quite simply, like most have already pointed out, that you tend to dismiss people based on age, type or lack of perceived authority in whoever you write to. I can't even remember what was discussed in the thread you're referring to.

^^ This.

My original distaste came from that thread, sure; but as I stated yesterday, I continue to read maybe a third of his posts, and my unwillingness to waste my time engaging (which he had credited as a positive) is that it's the ongoing overall attitude/approach to rules of discussion, regardless of his views on women. Exactly how you have summarized it here. It's almost absurd as to how consistent the approach is, even in the midst of denial. (I figure I might as well be clear about it, as I haven't really talked about it since that time.)

... and here's an example of why "ignoring someone" doesn't necessarily work. The ignoring only works when both people let the matter drop. In situations where someone asks that you ignore them, then continues to spread misinformation about your motivations or reasoning based on the old situation, the person who ignores inevitably just leaves themselves at the mercy of the one who continues to talk. Hence, this goes on and on and on, and why I'm bothering to clarify my reasons in this post.

I'm also not sure what the point is of debating a topic after putting almost everyone else in the thread on Ignore because they disagree with you, then continuing the debate with a few who straggle in later. Just leave the thread already. I don't think I've seen this much agreement on a topic on this forum, in this case that your approach doesn't line up with the approach used by many of the other forum members; but really, who cares? Some people might be reluctant to engage if they're not into that style of approach, but that's just life. People won't change their minds because the evidence appears to stack up to them a certain way, so just listen to it, learn from it, and move on.

 

[The Gopher]

Sure okay there was that thread, and your generally conservative political views, your firm beliefs regarding psychological types, your declarative writing style, your dismissal of people based on age and denial. (I seem to recall it being a more broad thing) Your appeal to authority and rules your consistency in this overall along with practically every aspect of your written persona... sure these could be reasons people dislike you in the first place but the reason the people here dislike these things IS BECAUSE IT REMINDS THEM OF THE ISTJ'S!

I just want to point out there is nothing wrong with ISTJ's they are incredibly useful and needed people in society more so than INTP's.

 

[Inquisitor]

Sure okay there was that thread, and your generally conservative political views, your firm beliefs regarding psychological types, your declarative writing style, your dismissal of people based on age and denial. (I seem to recall it being a more broad thing) Your appeal to authority and rules your consistency in this overall along with practically every aspect of your written persona... sure these could be reasons people dislike you in the first place but the reason the people here dislike these things IS BECAUSE IT REMINDS THEM OF THE ISTJ'S!

I just want to point out there is nothing wrong with ISTJ's they are incredibly useful and needed people in society more so than INTP's.

That's all fine and good, and if you actually met me in person and had a real, honest-to-God conversation with me where you could look me in the eye, observe my facial expressions as well as all the other non-verbal aspects of our communication, you would come to the conclusion that I am not an ISTJ.

 

[The Gopher]

Skype?

 

[Black Rose]

What was your MBTI test result?

I have only taken the online tests not the official test where a person evaluates you. My results on the online test are not consistent. They make me choose between being a good person such are caring or whether telling the truth is more important. With me it depends because I like being nice to people who are considerate such that you could say I do not act like a "angry youtube atheist" on any such subjects be it political, theological, cultural and the like. There is no reason to abject to bad behavior by doing the same because that will not change their opinion, it will just make them hate you and any further attempts at communication will fail. I give explanations of how things could be as alternatives but not at the expense of stepping on people's toes. Sometimes I have yelled at my parents and siblings but that was because it affected me personally in a life threatening kind of way. You cannot reason with the unreasonable when it is immediate and personal. Online or other places not around my family I am calm and act appropriately. I am not withholden to my negative emotions but MBTI makes it seem Feelings are emotions. I am not impulsive and I do consider the needs of other people because I care.

I have Dario Nardis book The Neuroscience of Personality. He says that INTP is one of the rare types that actually uses the reasoning parts of the frontal lobes. He also says that INFPs use the listening part of the brain. He says Introverted Sensing types can train any part of the brain and that Introverted Intuitives have a zen like brain state. Those are all the introverted types. Judging from the online tests, if those questions are the same then even with a person to coax you they will not give accurate type identities. I think that some people have described Introverted Thinking as the least likely type to listen to people and that INFPs think they are INFJs because INFJs are fuzzy sensitive types. And that Introverted Sensing is just memory capacity. I have no clue how Functions are supposed to interact if Nardis scans are correct because I think they would conflict with the MBTI notion that we use four functions. If I look at my cognitive behavior I would say I would be closest to Nardis Introverted Sensing Scan if I was to have a scan. I think that I listen well and I do have impulse control which is attributed to the frontal lobes. Recent articles I have read online say intelligence can be measured by scans of the connections between frontal lobes and parietal lobes. That may be why INTPs are said to be the most intelligent of the types by Nardies scans.

I do spend more time online than any other activity in my life. I remember things that would correspond to the stereotype of Introverted Sensing being just memories. Online MBTI tests conflates not caring with being principled. Brain scans would be more able to explain the type differences than paper tests I think. General views of how functions work together would have to be dismissed by brain scans even if you were an experienced practitioner of MBTI.

 

[Inquisitor]

I have only taken the online tests not the official test where a person evaluates you. My results on the online test are not consistent. They make me choose between being a good person such are caring or whether telling the truth is more important. With me it depends because I like being nice to people who are considerate such that you could say I do not act like a "angry youtube atheist" on any such subjects be it political, theological, cultural and the like. There is no reason to abject to bad behavior by doing the same because that will not change their opinion, it will just make them hate you and any further attempts at communication will fail. I give explanations of how things could be as alternatives but not at the expense of stepping on people's toes. Sometimes I have yelled at my parents and siblings but that was because it affected me personally in a life threatening kind of way. You cannot reason with the unreasonable when it is immediate and personal. Online or other places not around my family I am calm and act appropriately. I am not withholden to my negative emotions but MBTI makes it seem Feelings are emotions. I am not impulsive and I do consider the needs of other people because I care.

I have Dario Nardis book The Neuroscience of Personality. He says that INTP is one of the rare types that actually uses the reasoning parts of the frontal lobes. He also says that INFPs use the listening part of the brain. He says Introverted Sensing types can train any part of the brain and that Introverted Intuitives have a zen like brain state. Those are all the introverted types. Judging from the online tests, if those questions are the same then even with a person to coax you they will not give accurate type identities. I think that some people have described Introverted Thinking as the least likely type to listen to people and that INFPs think they are INFJs because INFJs are fuzzy sensitive types. And that Introverted Sensing is just memory capacity. I have no clue how Functions are supposed to interact if Nardis scans are correct because I think they would conflict with the MBTI notion that we use four functions. If I look at my cognitive behavior I would say I would be closest to Nardis Introverted Sensing Scan if I was to have a scan. I think that I listen well and I do have impulse control which is attributed to the frontal lobes. Recent articles I have read online say intelligence can be measured by scans of the connections between frontal lobes and parietal lobes. That may be why INTPs are said to be the most intelligent of the types by Nardies scans.

I do spend more time online than any other activity in my life. I remember things that would correspond to the stereotype of Introverted Sensing being just memories. Online MBTI tests conflates not caring with being principled. Brain scans would be more able to explain the type differences than paper tests I think. General views of how functions work together would have to be dismissed by brain scans even if you were an experienced practitioner of MBTI.

You might want to look into doing an in-person session with an experienced career counselor. Check this out: MBTI Referral Network

Personally, if I had to take the MBTI again, I would try to find someone who also had advanced degrees in psychology or an allied field + experience administering psychological assessments. The nice thing about MBTI is that it's correlated with the Big 5, so if you get conflicting results all the time on the MBTI you can take the Big 5, and then try to match them up. There are many other assessments out there such as the 16 PF...

I agree with you, and I've been saying it for a while now...brain scans are the next step and I'm excited to see what's discovered once we've developed this capacity to high-resolution. In the meantime, while Nardi's results are certainly interesting, I wouldn't put much stock in them. Too unreliable.

In the meantime, all I can suggest is trying to think about "what you habitually do." Everything else is much less important. The fact that you spend so much time alone is highly indicative of introversion. If we accept that you are I, then we are left with INTP, INFP, INTJ, INFJ, ISTP, ISFP, ISTJ, ISFJ. Based on your posts, I would eliminate F. We can further narrow down to INTP, INTJ, ISTP, and ISTJ. Both INTJ and ISTJ are endomorphs, and you are an ectomorph, they are out. We're left with INTP or ISTP. If I had to choose one, I would go with INTP. I'm not a professional. Don't take my word for it. If you can't figure it out now, I'm sure you will eventually.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

I get your point. I suspect the reason goes back to that thread I started from way back on the attractiveness of western women. I have my views on that subject, but I shouldn't have aired them here. It pretty much wounded/infuriated several of the regulars. Add to that my generally conservative political views (in a forum whose regulars are mostly liberals-at least my that's my impression), my firm beliefs regarding psychological types, and my declarative writing style, it's no surprise some people are not happy with me...but I don't interact with those people anymore so

Western Women are the hottest without a doubt

Spoiler

...but seriously:

Spoiler

Wish I hadn't missed that thread!!

I agree with the assessment that most of the regulars here are rather 'liberal' though as is typical of 'liberals': they not very liberal in their tolerance of viewpoints that do not mirror their own. Especially the mods. Its very typical of the age group (I'm confident in asserting mid 20s-early 30s is typical based on information provided in the forum); they were marinated in the political perspective of the nanny state (heavily marinated in the morality of enforcing political correctness via word and deed) during their formative years so its to be expected.

But we're all biased and want to see our egos get stroked publicly by way of agree-ance: liberal or conservative. I recently unfriended a couple of close relatives so as to cut them off my facebook because they were promoting a bunch of that white privilege (emotional self cutting guilt/ shame BS!) on their accounts.

BTW: Why are so many white females into that crap? It seems like its sort of a publicly condoned demonstration of emotional self cutting. Perhaps its mostly a physiological thing analogous to postpartum depression? As common with women these days as anorexia/ bulimia. Except the part where the woman's teeth are dissolving away in her own stomach acid as she jabs her finger into the back of her facial orifice and projects the chunky contents of her last meal into the toilet as shes on her knees doubled over the toilet gripping it with both hands as the chunks flying into the water at 60 miles per hour kick dirty H2O droplet bombs into her hair and face...is kept private in the case of bulimia thank the Gawds.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

Here is a counter argument to the proposition that Inquisitor is ISTJ or something besides IxTP:

He is obviously (to my observations) prone to the Ti infinite feedback loop. To the point of picking apart things down to the atomic level.

His thought processes remind me of picking scabs...under a microscope. If Inquisitor could he'd probably use a scanning electron microscope for the task if he could [for the squeamish (this means you Zerkalo!) don't look!] It does have a happy ending :

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh6ftyUOd6o

as is typical of IxTPs. No?

(Dear Inquisitor, there is zero intention here to criticize/ judge you negatively. Just making observations. In fact there are many positive things I could say about what I've observed about your thought processes)

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Wish I hadn't missed that thread!!

I bet you miss that one, a real drama sponge it was.

I agree with the assessment that most of the regulars here are rather 'liberal' though as is typical of 'liberals': they not very liberal in their tolerance of viewpoints that do not mirror their own. Especially the mods. Its very typical of the age group (I'm confident in asserting mid 20s-early 30s is typical based on information provided in the forum); they were marinated in the political perspective of the nanny state (heavily marinated in the morality of enforcing political correctness via word and deed) during their formative years so its to be expected.

Ahaha, you were funny, for once. I almost don't regret reading the rest of your post.

Thread closed, typing forum members without their approval is ill-advised.

I'm closing this thread before we start discussing politics here, there are places to do that.

 

[Fukyo]

"Hello kids, I am Dr Gregory House. I don't have the slightest clue about moderator's ethnicity, or indeed, their upbringing, so I will just assume they are American, because this fits into my narrative of being persecuted by liberal zombies. Hell, why not make it into a passive aggressive swipe while I'm at it?"

edit: I got inb4 the lock