Are you a sociopath? Am I?

[nearfantastica]

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Am I the only one that can strongly identify with many of these? 11/15 to be exact?

 

[TimeAsylums]

14/15

Nothing wrong with being a sociopath.
More likely to get ahead.

 

[nearfantastica]

I kind of get the idea that all INTP are prone to match many of the symptoms. Would you agree?

 

[Cherry Cola]

meh its a matter of degrees, I'm betting pretty much everyone harbor a number of sociopathic traits and patterns of thoughts. I know I do, it's just that they aren't prominent.

I think I could identify with 14/15 to some degree, and I ain't no sociopath :O

 

[redbaron]

I like how the icon for a web page about sociopaths is a smiley face.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Glibness and Superficial Charm

maybe

Manipulative and Conning

nah cba, that's for pitiful weaklings

Grandiose Sense of Self

yes but usually hidden even from myself

Pathological Lying

nope

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

i've dabbled with the concept, but no

Shallow Emotions

maybe

Incapacity for Love

definitely not

Need for Stimulation

hm

Callousness/Lack of Empathy

occasionally, but mostly no

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature

intrapersonally yes, but interpersonally (as seems to be intended) no

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency

no, i was in my late teens when i started

Irresponsibility/Unreliability

no

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity

hahah opposite

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

partly

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility

entrepreneurial? hahahahah no

 

[r4ch3l]

does lazily wishing i were socially skilled enough to be a sociopath (which i am so very far from) make me one?

 

[Hadoblado]

I lived with someone I believe to be a sociopath once. It was terrible.

These traits in relation to me? Nope. I probably exhibit 5-6, but even then some of them would be border-line.

 

[Pyropyro]

I can only relate to the following:

1. Grandiose Sense of Self - I think it's part of the INTP package

2. Callousness/Lack of Empathy - For those who deserve it. I give my Fe to people who I really care about.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Fear of sociopathy is over-rated: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wisdom-from-psychopaths

 

[Hadoblado]

1. Grandiose Sense of Self - I think it's part of the INTP package

It's not.

 

[Hawkeye]

I think I could identify with 14/15 to some degree, and I ain't no sociopath :O

This means you are

 

[ZenRaiden]

The problem is that most of the criteria for socipath are very vague. Self entiteled people who think only of themselves are many. Some stuff is just hard to attribute to only sociopaths. I think it is only how strong is the representation of those traits. When strong, I mean super strong. For example imature teenagers act like sociopaths all the time. Small children are like that too. Once the person grows up it can still have some of the negative traits. Egoism can be strong in some people. Infact so strong that they will blame the world for their failiure and convince themselves that they are special just, because they did one thing right. It is not that sociopaths have these traits.

It is that these traist are only indicators. A true sociopath has hard time empathising with other people. Then again if you get in to conflict wiht someone your brain will too be less likely feel empathy for your enemy. Sociopaths are emotionless and have many other proplems like integration to society. Labeling them as defective however is going to bring only problems to the society.

 

[Pyropyro]

It's not.

Yes it is.

 

[Hadoblado]

Yes it is.

Okay.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

As far as the OP goes, might as well make it official: Yes.

It is that these traist are only indicators. A true sociopath has hard time empathising with other people. Then again if you get in to conflict wiht someone your brain will too be less likely feel empathy for your enemy. Sociopaths are emotionless and have many other proplems like integration to society. Labeling them as defective however is going to bring only problems to the society.

Sociopathy is too complex to be neatly stuffed into a diagnostic box, and being vague is an attempt to make up for this. Whether deemed beneficial or problematic a sociopath would intentionally skew their responses to diagnostic tests on a circumstantial basis regardless. Though I wouldn't call them emotionless. It's a different kind of emotion, sort of... inactivated, because it's not attached to ethics.

An interesting difference that may warrant further investigation: the focus on chaotic evil characteristics as a means to identify/diagnose what is a chaotic net neutral condition with extreme variance that encompasses the entire good/evil gradient.

 

[Pyropyro]

Fear of sociopathy is over-rated: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wisdom-from-psychopaths

That's an interesting read. So that's how they think. Perhaps the criminally sociopathic may just be someone too immersed to tools that could be useful for success.

Their traits, if you will, seems to be like potent medicine. Too much of it will kill you while a good dose can remove you from a rut.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Their traits, if you will, seems to be like potent medicine. Too much of it will kill you while a good dose can remove you from a rut.

This is why I brought up the chaotic good --- evil spectrum. The medicine only kills if it produces a negative result. This is why I believe sociopathy to be more common than most people think: risk assessment from a sociopath's perspective favors neutrality, which is less detectable. Sheep despise wolves yet cuddle with the shepherd who dines on lamb chops - because he deters the wolves.

 

[doncarlzone]

Well I'm certainly not charming.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

You should probably see a psychologist to determine whether or not you're a sociopath.

 

[r4ch3l]

You should probably see a psychologist to determine whether or not you're a sociopath.

That's the paradox of sociopathy though: real sociopaths see nothing wrong with themselves. They typically only get diagnosed if they get caught doing something criminal and are forced to undergo an evaluation. IMO this list is more indicative of NPD?

That's an interesting read. So that's how they think. Perhaps the criminally sociopathic may just be someone too immersed to tools that could be useful for success.

Their traits, if you will, seems to be like potent medicine. Too much of it will kill you while a good dose can remove you from a rut.

I agree with this a lot.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

That's the paradox of sociopathy though: real sociopaths see nothing wrong with themselves. They typically only get diagnosed if they get caught doing something criminal and are forced to undergo an evaluation. IMO this list is more indicative of NPD?

They wouldn't do it for pure curiosity's sake?

 

[r4ch3l]

They wouldn't do it for pure curiosity's sake?

anything's possible. i have seen NPD types aspiring toward sociopathy become attached to the label.

my opinion is that true sociopaths don't care/are scheming more interesting things/already know/in rare cases are ashamed to know/justify, justify, justify/think they're smarter than psychologists/would find it more interesting to manipulate the psychologist.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Here is a question:

Why are sociopaths so interested in using people?

 

[TimeAsylums]

Why are sociopaths so interested in using people?

This is by no means definitive, just my own speculations:

Seems it could be a variety of reasons:

• Just because they can
• Because it may be easier than doing work/whatever themselves
• Because it's fun?
• Because they're bored
• Lecherous
• //Any number of reasons/just because

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Why are sociopaths so interested in using people?

Because they don't have to do any work themselves yet reap the benefits. Benefits are typically tangible though the type of manipulation used is highly variable. Ideally these relationships are a win/win.

For example, a Ph.D student with a small army of field lackeys to collect hir data will have many more publications than hir peers and will thus be in a better position to succeed and access more power to expand the ranks. It allows them to conduct numerous side projects. The only limitation is the ingenuity of the director.

I have no experience with this concept.

[*]Just because they can

[*]Because it may be easier than doing work/whatever themselves
[*]Because it's fun?

[*]Because they're bored

[*]Lecherous
[*]//Any number of reasons/just because

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

hir

Rebelling against the man by using gender neutral language?

 

[TimeAsylums]

Rebelling against the man by using gender neutral language?

...Now we just have to ban all of those other languages that use genders for inanimate objects.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

...Now we just have to ban all of those other languages that use genders for inanimate objects.

I rather just deride the proponents of political correctness.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I rather just deride the proponents of political correctness.

I deride memorizing los/las/el/la for chairs, food, parts of the body, etc.


I like smart people, they expand my vocabulary.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Rebelling against the man by using gender neutral language?

Hir hir, sir.

 

[Wolf18]

In Hungary, I believe, women, men and inanimate objects are all referred to as "it" (in Hungarian, obviously). Sorry to continue in the derailing of this thread, but I thought you might be interested.

I can mostly relate to the lack of empathy a sociopath supposedly shows. I like myself and am confident, but I don't look for approval (I don't think). I try not to put myself in positions where I will be irresponsible or unreliable, so it's not a serious problem for me. I don't often need to lie, but when I do, I can always pull it off rather easily. I'm not social enough to be glib or charming, or even manipulative. I was a normal child until I was 10, and I am rather well-mannered even now. I still live at home, as I am still a child (technically), so I haven't yet found out if I live a parasitic life style.

SW

 

[ZenRaiden]

As far as the OP goes, might as well make it official: Yes.

Sociopathy is too complex to be neatly stuffed into a diagnostic box, and being vague is an attempt to make up for this. Whether deemed beneficial or problematic a sociopath would intentionally skew their responses to diagnostic tests on a circumstantial basis regardless. Though I wouldn't call them emotionless. It's a different kind of emotion, sort of... inactivated, because it's not attached to ethics.

An interesting difference that may warrant further investigation: the focus on chaotic evil characteristics as a means to identify/diagnose what is a chaotic net neutral condition with extreme variance that encompasses the entire good/evil gradient.

Well that was wrong way of explaining what sociopath is. I could have done better. The real issue is infact what you say. The use of emotions and the way they integrate is different. Most likely the best way to identifiy a sociopath is the main factor and that is how much they work. Then again many sociopaths may be hardworking people and no one would ever see them as sociopaths. It would be interesting to see research where they could tell normal people and sociopaths apart and see how many of the sociopaths are really developing and using the negative traits. I tend to believe that until then sociopath can actually be only analyzed from a point of view we choose and that is by default a criminal point of view. It is perhaps practical, but I suspect that many sociopaths are nothingl like we imagine them to be.

 

[BloodCountess88]

Don't you have to be charming and have a lot of people skills to be a sociopath? Don't they have to, you know, like you and let you control them so that you can use them?


I'm too antisocial and apathetic for that.... I play AD&D and I was the worst assassin ever, I stood out so much and I was so awkward, a total "I'm a killer" giveaway.

 

[Foxman49]

Hir hir, sir.

A bit of a slip up with you gender neutrality don't ya think?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Well that was wrong way of explaining what sociopath is. I could have done better.

That would be great if that's what I was trying to do.

The real issue is infact what you say. The use of emotions and the way they integrate is different. Most likely the best way to identifiy a sociopath is the main factor and that is how much they work. Then again many sociopaths may be hardworking people and no one would ever see them as sociopaths. It would be interesting to see research where they could tell normal people and sociopaths apart and see how many of the sociopaths are really developing and using the negative traits. I tend to believe that until then sociopath can actually be only analyzed from a point of view we choose and that is by default a criminal point of view. It is perhaps practical, but I suspect that many sociopaths are nothingl like we imagine them to be.

The best identification tool is to look at how someone accomplishes their goals and who benefits. The "how" will always be efficient, and often counterintuitive, while the sociopath will always be the "who" that benefits.

Society seems to say "look for the quiet guy who kills people!" but in reality murder is often more labor intensive that it's worth. They can be good guys too.

A bit of a slip up with you gender neutrality don't ya think?

Hir hir tir ir nir hir rir, sir.

 

[Montresor]

Don't you have to be charming and have a lot of people skills to be a sociopath? Don't they have to, you know, like you and let you control them so that you can use them?


I'm too antisocial and apathetic for that.... I play AD&D and I was the worst assassin ever, I stood out so much and I was so awkward, a total "I'm a killer" giveaway.

This is when I remind you that antisocial PD has extremely high co-morbidity with sociopathy (so much so that many believe they are the "same thing," although they are not).

yes I'm sure that's not what you meant but hey, I just mean, that there is probably not much of a correlation between your video game skills and your PCL-R.


You do not need to be charming or have people skills to be a sociopath any more than you need to be a sociopath to be charming and have people skills, ya dig?


Unscrupulous/psychopathic/sociopathic types can be eerily charming in a very disconcerting way. I don't think any "type" is more prone/susceptible than any other, not in the least INTP.


I think a very large majority of the world's psychopaths are probably very aware of their condition and bear it with the appropriate degree of seriousness (*snicker)

 

[BloodCountess88]

This is when I remind you that antisocial PD has extremely high co-morbidity with sociopathy (so much so that many believe they are the "same thing," although they are not).

yes I'm sure that's not what you meant but hey, I just mean, that there is probably not much of a correlation between your video game skills and your PCL-R.


You do not need to be charming or have people skills to be a sociopath any more than you need to be a sociopath to be charming and have people skills, ya dig?


Unscrupulous/psychopathic/sociopathic types can be eerily charming in a very disconcerting way. I don't think any "type" is more prone/susceptible than any other, not in the least INTP.


I think a very large majority of the world's psychopaths are probably very aware of their condition and bear it with the appropriate degree of seriousness (*snicker)

LOL true true, I thought of Girl Interrupted . Don't throw rocks at me, that's not my area of study really.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Antisocial disorder diagnosis has no future. I mean what is the point of it. So a kid or a person acts antisocially. There is something else that is making that person act like that. Here is the big question. What the hell does antisocial mean? We have laws so anyone who is braking the law is antisocial.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Calling it a disorder makes it easier to help the people who fulfill the criteria for it. Your line of reasoning is applicable to any mental disorder, except for that last sentence about breaking the law, which; however, makes no sense. Breaking the law is not antisocial, although it can be.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Calling it a disorder makes it easier to help the people who fulfill the criteria for it. Your line of reasoning is applicable to any mental disorder, except for that last sentence about breaking the law, which; however, makes no sense. Breaking the law is not antisocial, although it can be.

Anti social disorder is an umbrella term that is a shorthand for saying" We do not have a fucking clue what is wrong with this child". It is simply stating the obvious.
Not every child, adolescent, badass will grow up to be a good person in social terms. That alone does not mean the research will end here. All these antisocial people have an history and different future based on why they do what they do.
Calling people antisocial is a linguistic trick for only single purpose and that is administratory purpose. It saves you some time. On the other hand if you look at these kids maybe the crimes they commit are similar, maybe their behaviour is similar, but all are individuals with different personality. I can imagine that with MBTI - knowing how different people are- the whole science becomes more of an art of knowing how to help. Putting all these kids in one bag and spitting on them in disgust is just the last thing that will help them to integrate.
It is basically putting them down in social terms and in many cases probably just pepetuates their negative side of personality.

Imagine a neonacist racist sadistic individual. How is it going to help them labelling them anitsocial. Not only they know they are, but it is just word game.
Why did they join a group of nacist. Why do they beat up black people. Why did they enjoy sadistic behaviour etc. Everyone has a different story. Some may have done it to do something cool. Some may have these tendencies for what ever reason. Running around and chasing them and labeling them antisocial is no service to them or society.

In our family we have one unnamed kid that has these traits. Drug abuse and misbehaving in all sorts of ways. The question is what now. It is allready easy to see that the potentional of this person is high in becoming a criminal. Make a bad step and tag em as antisocial and they might associat themselves with the criminal hive and become criminal. After all that is what they are no?

I am not a pro psychologist, but I can see that tags like this make it harder to cross the line from antisocial behavior to more prosocial.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Hey man I ain't saying anything against that, nicely put. I don't think it means that the diagnosis is pointless, its heuristic yes, but what are the options? Psychology is still in the cradle and can only do so much.

 

[Montresor]

Use question marks!!!!


Just want to chime in once more that mental/personality disorders are specifically defined as being pervasive and maladaptive.

Antisocial PD is an umbrella term for folks who constantly act out in anti-social ways (callously violating norms and mores), not necessarily just laws, (that reasoning is garbage).

It doesn't have the specific requirement of shallow affect; psychopathy is ASPD that has been taken to a higher level.

Anti social disorder is an umbrella term that is a shorthand for saying" We do not have a fucking clue what is wrong with this child". It is simply stating the obvious.

I guess ............. you mean conduct disorder.

 

[Duxwing]

The diagnostic criteria for ASPD seem to assume that individuals should adopt the mores and norms of their culture, and this assumption leads to contradictions:

If I were a pacifist who lived under Atilla the Hun and categorically refused to rape, pillage, and burn resisting cities (social more) and liked to walk on my hands; didn't want to get married (social norms); and then was outcast for these behaviors, then I would have ASPD.

One could counter that the norms and mores of Atilla the Hun were sick and twisted, but from the is-ought problem we know that such an argument ultimately rests on one or more assumptions and therefore is not based upon the universal ethics necessary to put one set of morals above another; or, in other words, Atilla and his horde liked their morals just fine, yet if the aforementioned individual were to come here and carry out their morals, then they would be put in prison forever.

The "social mores and norms" clause of the ASPD diagnosis therefore leads to a glaring contradiction when the individual moves between cultures whose mores and norms contradict.

-Duxwing

 

[ZenRaiden]

Hey man I ain't saying anything against that, nicely put. I don't think it means that the diagnosis is pointless, its heuristic yes, but what are the options? Psychology is still in the cradle and can only do so much.

The option is to keep the doors open as long as possible and not shutting them infront of a person. Not everything needs to be turned into psychological realm. Everyone knows that individuality is a product of society, politics, and parenthood. As well as it is a product of psychological label. Psychologist do not have the omnipotent power to change people. Try to imagine Al Capone being taged as Anti Social. LOL. In many ways he saw him self as a good guy. He was a mobster, but he did pro social things too. The thing is that one day we might end up with teenagers going around with t-shirts saying " I am a proud member of Antisocials".
It is just not a good idea to round em up.

I think many of the kids fall through the system unnoticed and are too immature to judge for themselves what is good and what is bad, or they have lack of foresight. So here you are with a psycho tag, but that tag is something that is not serving anything.

Just to illustrate what I mean:

I went to a group psychology center or what the hell it is called with diagnosis of psychotic.
After sometime It got better and the support group helped me to get rid of some of the anxiety. Mainly social anxiety.
The problem was that I got 3 individual sessions with a psychologist and only after the 3rd session she got to the point where I told here about my depression. Before that she had no clue. It takes a lot of time for a psychologist to do anything and cut through the layers of bullshit.

Anyway that same problem is with Anti social disorder. These kids, adolescents or grown ups are not simple minded creatures. In psychology it takes a lot of time to diagnose a person. The main issue here is that with antisocial tag the person maybe treated totally differently and the true issue the person maybe having problems that may fly over everyones head including the psychologist. The fact that psychologist these days are trying to do the impossible and play God is not a good idea. I think the antisocial tag kind of puts the person into psychological realm where they can only help them in limited way. The true help is sociaty itself and accepting these individuals as they are. It is the same way when you have a high rate of recidivdism in criminals. They just get to be labeled as criminals and voilá, they repeat the crime again.

 

[Montresor]

The "social mores and norms" clause of the ASPD diagnosis therefore leads to a glaring contradiction when the individual moves between cultures whose mores and norms contradict.

Good point mister.

The clause isn't real. It's just a way of thinking that I wanted to bring to light. I thought his was too black and white.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Use question marks!!!!


Just want to chime in once more that mental/personality disorders are specifically defined as being pervasive and maladaptive.

Antisocial PD is an umbrella term for folks who constantly act out in anti-social ways (callously violating norms and mores), not necessarily just laws, (that reasoning is garbage).

It doesn't have the specific requirement of shallow affect; psychopathy is ASPD that has been taken to a higher level.



I guess ............. you mean conduct disorder.

Sort of yes. I have to read more on it. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I see what you mean, but I think labels are necessary if but for the simple reasons of giving psychologists something to go on (although the skilled ones tend not to rely as much on labeling, but they are in a minority) and society something that it cannot ignore; pathological elements warrant societal concern. But of course the issue, as you describe it - with a diagnosis being like a sticker saying "I am a violent asshole who doesn't care and lacks self control" that you can't rub off - is serious. To be honest I can't say I am certain of my position on the matter, but hitherto I see naught to do but wait til procedures and diagnoses have been developed to the point where even the poor and average psychologists can use them properly.

Furthermore, Al Capone could easily have been anti social, mobsters typically see themselves as good guys and like to engage themselves in some kind of social duty, typically something having to do with roots and tradition. I've learned this from Sopranos.

Nah but In all honesty Capone seemed driven; persisting, and charismatic, but also impulsive and reckless. Seems like pretty typical antisocial tendencies to me, whether he did social work or not isn't really relevant.

 

[Hadoblado]

The "social mores and norms" clause of the ASPD diagnosis therefore leads to a glaring contradiction when the individual moves between cultures whose mores and norms contradict.

This is a nice thought.

I guess, rather than defining their behavioural tendency as the negation of social mores and norms, it would be more precise to define it as the conspicuous absence of the internalisation of these pressures, regardless of social context.

 

[Duxwing]

This is a nice thought.

I guess, rather than defining their behavioural tendency as the negation of social mores and norms, it would be more precise to define it as the conspicuous absence of the internalisation of these pressures, regardless of social context.

But that definition still diagnoses the pacifist in Atilla's horde with ASPD; a conspicuous lack of emotional (as opposed to cognitive) empathy in the absence of philosophical concerns seems a better indicator, though not a complete definition.

-Duxwing