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The Many Faces of INFJ

kibou

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Is it really appropriate to designate Fe-auxiliary as a manipulative function or one that has to impose itself to exist? I think to see it this way is to focus on only what the negative manifestations can be. See we could do the same for Ti. I could say it is a self-serving function that expects the logical order it sees and creates to be accepted by others, even though it may not even make sense for others to do so. That's manipulative in its own way and all it takes is for me to come across one Ti-dom that acts this way in an unhealthy manner to reach these conclusions.

See what I mean? Fe and Te are just goal-seeking functions, it can involve just the self or others. If someone wants to see one or the other as manipulative, then fine, but I think their problem wouldn't be with the functions, but with life being one big complete process of manipulation since the moment of conception.
I agree, actually I think one of the reasons why xxFJs will mistype as xxxPs is because Fe will use external-harmony seeking to play "sub" instead of "dom" in the interpersonal & social situation. However, social awareness is definitely a persisting theme in Fe users; when playing "sub" or "beta", there is an awareness of the role one is playing, giving the other person a chance to "take the stage" in a group situation, for example. This can be used anywhere from being thoughtful and kind and unimposing on others, or taking charge and leading. It can also be used in a way that makes it obvious to others what's being done (like winking after a joke, "I'm letting you know this so you're in on it), or subtly and even covertly (which can be seen as manipulative at times).
 

Logic

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Directive and Adaptive seems to describe the actions of the top P and J function in unison. The directing is coming through Je, and the adaption through Pe. Thus, it is a description based on your extraverted activity, just as J and P are, but tries to clear up some ambiguity in terminology.

Presumably, by "Directive functions" is meant those functions which make up the top two of a Directive type, i.e. the Je and Pi functions, and by Adaptive functions, Ji and Pe - not because Ji adapts and Pe directs, but because they are the functions that a Directive or Adaptive primarily uses.
By definition of what it means to be adaptive, Ti and Fi are still completely adaptive:
1. They have no concept of Time, or Structure.
2. They work Reactively in real-time.
3. They're in a state of waiting and work in response to what is impacting them.

When a Ji disagrees with something, then it can reject information, but that's still a reaction, not Proactivity, so it's still not really directing.

The same goes with Pi, by definition of what it means to be directive, Ni and Si are both still directive functions, that is why a Pi dom is Directive, and why a Ji dom is an Adaptive in the first place.

I was under the mistaken assumption that we were discussing MBTI.

Anyway, Podlair is still getting this wrong, Pi-doms lead with irrational functions and thus, should be adaptive (in theory). However, in real life, they exhibit J-like behavior, which goes to show that the entire model -- including the function definitions which make Pi functions sound like Ji functions -- is getting it wrong.
Do you see the huge flaw in your reasoning? You're basically asserting that Pod'Lair is wrong, because the Jungian assumption is different. Is that really how being right and wrong works? No, this is again, more circular logic. Nothing can be declared truly wrong just because another theory believes it should be wrong. In fact, my whole point of this is that the original Jungian Model is wrong. It even looks like you're starting to agree when you say "in real life, they exhibit J-like behavior", and if J-Like behavior is in other words "Directive" behavior, then doesn't that go to show you that maybe Directivity isn't dependent on having a dominant J function? If you're willing to accept that Pi-Dom show "Rational" behavior, then wouldn't it be wrong to call them Irrational?

Shouldn't real life behavior be more important than what their behavior should be in theory? If the theory isn't reflecting real life, then isn't it about high time you change the theory?
 

terraxceles

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Thank you for the clarification kibou. I already understand the concepts. I just don't agree with adding further variables to something that can be simplified to even fewer variables.

Shouldn't real life behavior be more important than what their behavior should be in theory? If the theory isn't reflecting real life, then isn't it about high time you change the theory?
Yes, but the original Jungian definitions are consistent with both reality and theory (which is based on many years of research, might I add), whereas it's not so consistent for any system that has come after it, as they have all slightly altered Jung's original definition of functions. This not only creates a lot of confusion, but it creates inconsistent models like MBTI, on which Podlair is more-of-less based on.

If you take a certain aspect of a function (e.g. Je) and attribute it to another function (e.g. Pi), it does not change the phenomenon which is still recognizable both ways, but the definitions are no longer consistent with each other, and/or the overall model. So in such a case, either the model is changed to reflect the definitions, or the definitions are reverted back to their original meaning so they are consistent with the model.

As it stands, MBTI/Podlair are doing neither, although Podlair considers itself above typology, so I suppose the Rational/Irrational conditions no longer apply.
 

Logic

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Yes, but the original Jungian definitions are consistent with both reality and theory (which is based on many years of research, might I add), whereas it's not so consistent for any system that has come after it, as they have all slightly altered Jung's original definition of functions. This not only creates a lot of confusion, but it creates inconsistent models like MBTI, on which Podlair is more-of-less based on.

If you take a certain aspect of a function (e.g. Je) and attribute it to another function (e.g. Pi), it does not change the phenomenon which is still recognizable both ways, but the definitions are no longer consistent with each other, and/or the overall model. So in such a case, either the model is changed to reflect the definitions, or the definitions are reverted back to their original meaning so they are consistent with the model.

As it stands, MBTI/Podlair are doing neither, although Podlair considers itself above typology, so I suppose the Rational/Irrational conditions no longer apply.
How do you know the Jungian definitions are consistent with reality? Have you physically verified them? Has anyone Physically verified them? Or are you just assuming that since Jung spent years on it, then it must be perfect, and thus having complete blind faith in the model is obviously the way to go. Pod'Lair actually can physically verify all of the principles that are involved in how a type is configured, that's how Pod'Lair came to develop the theory that it uses, this makes it based on reality, not based on MBTI. If MBTI's understanding is consistent with that, then good for them, but that's become a moot point, because Pod'Lair's understanding is being validated by something other than MBTI theory. Saying MBTI is wrong because that's not how Jung did it, and thus Pod'Lair is wrong too is no longer a viable assertion, its circular reasoning. If Pod'Lair is physically observing something in reality and basing the theory off of that (and is completely consistent with both), then you're going to have to address the phenomenon that Pod'Lair is observing, not the mathematics of what Jung believed the phenomenon is supposed to be. Theories don't get to decide how the phenomenon works, the physical and existent phenomenon gets to decide how the theory works.
 

Bird

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You need to realize that both theories are opinions
and neither are concrete.

Stop your bullshit fighting.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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By definition of what it means to be adaptive, Ti and Fi are still completely adaptive:
1. They have no concept of Time, or Structure.
2. They work Reactively in real-time.
3. They're in a state of waiting and work in response to what is impacting them.
Can you expand on these points? Are you saying that, as a P-type, you don't have an intuitive understanding of time, and that your thoughts aren't structured (I thought J functions were structured processes in general)? Do you only think about things when they are present in the environment, and not when there is no environmental stimulus? Is your mind otherwise essentially blank?
 

Logic

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Can you expand on these points? Are you saying that, as a P-type, you don't have an intuitive understanding of time, and that your thoughts aren't structured (I thought J functions were structured processes in general)? Do you only think about things when they are present in the environment, and not when there is no environmental stimulus? Is your mind otherwise essentially blank?
Well are Ti and Ne your only functions? if they were, then yes you'd have no understanding of time. Luckily that's not the case, you have Four conscious functions, two adaptive and two directive, and that configuration gives you everything you would need to survive as a working mind, however since they're configured in different orders than you'll have different levels of preference for them, hence the manifestation of Adaptive and Directive behavior. Fi and Ti are actually very unstructured, they simply discern where they stand on something, is it agreeable or disagreeable in a very tacit and amorphous way. This is why it's very difficult for the Ti and Fi doms to explain themselves, because their positions are very unstructured and difficult to put into a structured language.

No the mind is never blank, and information doesn't only come from the environment, the Ji functions can work on information that comes from both perceptions, although it's still working in that real-time and reactive manner.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Well are Ti and Ne your only functions? if they were, then yes you'd have no understanding of time. Luckily that's not the case, you have Four conscious functions, two adaptive and two directive, and that configuration gives you everything you would need to survive as a working mind, however since they're configured in different orders than you'll have different levels of preference for them, hence the manifestation of Adaptive and directive behavior. Fi and Ti are actually very unstructured, they simply discern where they stand on something, is it agreeable or disagreeable in a very tacit and amorphous way. This is why it's very difficult for the Ti and Fi doms to explain themselves, because their positions are very unstructured and difficult to put into a structured language.

No the mind is never blank, and information doesn't only come from the environment, the Ji functions can work on information that comes from both perceptions, although it's still working in that real-time and reactive manner.
Well, you primarily use your top two functions. I'm not saying you have no understanding of it at all, but that while you're in your natural mode, it is barely noticed - you take little notice to the progression of the external situation, and only what is happening right now.

What processes are described as structured, then? Both Je and Pi? In what sense are they structured? How does subjective discernment work, if not structurally? Compared to, say, Ni doms, don't Ji doms typically have an -easier- time explaining what they are thinking?
 

EyeSeeCold

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Let's get something straight here, I don't care what dicotomy system you're using, but when I say Lead Judger I'm talking about any type that has Ti, Te, Fi, and Fe as a dominant function.

and when I say Lead perciever I'm talking about any type that has Se, Si, Ne, and Ni as a dominant function.
Yea.

Lead Judger. Dominant Rational. Primarily concerned with frame-working information.

Lead Perceiver. Dominant Irrational. Primarily concerned with experiencing information.


Oops. Was I inconsistent with your POV? That's because your working under the notion of Ti and Fi producing IxxP and Ni and Si producing IxxJ. Let's break down this whole typology system and go back to basics.

Extraverted > Rational > Thinking/Feeling = TeFe_NiSi
Extraverted > Irrational > Sensing/Intuiting = NeSe_TiFi
Introverted > Rational > Thinking/Feeling = TiFi_NeSe
Introverted > Irrational > Sensing/Intuiting = NiSi_TeFe


Where, exactly, is that compressed information that tells us to treat Introverts different than Extraverts? Where, exactly, is it implied that introverted perceiving functions and introverted judging functions will make IJ and IP, respectively, but EJ and EP are not affected?

Where is that information?



I don't have a problem understanding the concepts of Adaptive and Directive, Logic, I have a problem with their existence, as they are not justified. I have to make my point known otherwise you and I would be wasting our time, unknowingly.

Arguing from an MBTTian functional standpoint is erroneous because I propose that MBTTian types do not have the right functions assigned to them, thus in the MBTTian systems there is a myriad of misconceptions of what functions are, how they interact, how they form a type, and how a type's operations are resulted from the aforementioned functions.


This is not circular logic, to say we go back to basics and justify IJs having dominant perceiving functions and IPs having dominant judging functions. This is the breaking down and analysis of the system we have built and have blindly accepted over the years.

I await Adymus' rebuttal.
Try not to be too long-winded though.
Does Adymus still come here? I figured he'd said all he wanted to.

This must be the calm before the storm. :storks:
:phear: I welcome him to join. Though, I'm sure he knows it's the same old song.


You need to realize that both theories are opinions
and neither are concrete.

Stop your bullshit fighting.
It's not fighting. It's arguing, and it's necessary to reach an understanding. Agreed that nothing here is 100% verifiable and concrete, yet, still, one theory must be the most applicable and relevant to reality and that's what we're trying to figure out.


This is the Dialectic method.
 

BigApplePi

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Faces of INFJ - INTP symbolic representations

I don't think it's very serious and you've probably come across it before, but there is this for the INTP instalment.


Anyways, one way you could go about this is in a systematic fashion, e.g, have a: standard model subtype; subtype with well developed tertiary; subtype with well developed inferior; subtype with well developed tertiary and underdeveloped auxiliary; subtype with well developed auxiliary and inferior and underdeveloped tertiary; etc (with all "well developed" and "underdeveloped" magnitudes being relative to the absolute magnitudes of the functions of the standard model of that MBTI (e.g: a "well developed" Fe of an INTP wouldn't be as high as a "normal" Fe of an INFJ, and maybe still not as high as an "underdeveloped" Fe of an INFJ (maybe it would have to be "super developed" to beat an INFJ's Fe)).

This system might produce little to say on some subtypes, a lot on others, you might think of subtypes which reflect none of these systematic combinations, and multiple for the same combination, and the article probably wouldn't match the style of the INFJ article, but meh.
For the heck of it I took your post and translated it using symbols suggested by Adymus in an earlier post:

INTP typical, size implying strength, order implying comfort:
Ti
Ne Si Fe
______________________________________________
Strength categories:

Ti Ne Si Fe * Ti Ne Si Fe *Ti Ne Si Fe
______________________________________________
Weakness:
Ti Ne Si Fe *Ti Ne Si Fe *Ti Ne Si Fe *Ti Ne Si Fe
______________________________________________
Variations:

Ti Ne Si Fe *Ti Ne Si Fe *Ti Ne Si Fe*Ti Ne Si Fe
______________________________________________
These show there are more cases than we can easily find examples for.

 

BigApplePi

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I'm definitely INFJ - absolutely no doubt about it. I am the Academic (obviously!) but I've got strong Method Actor traits too. I have been the Guru and that's definitely still part of me but I know it's not that appropriate outside of the therapy situation. The Revolutionary - that's why I can't read or watch the news any more - my blood pressure can't take it. The Gypsy Queen - hell yeah! I can seduce, fascinate, captivate, manipulate because I've been taking in all the information about a person from the second I meet them. I have freaked people out by knowing stuff about them that 'no one else knows' on far too many occasions - I tone myself down nowadays because otherwise I'm just too intense and people are scared of me. The Cobra - sigh, that's the one that gets me in the most trouble with men - as soon as I feel threatened I strike and the blow is usually deadly. Their sexy princess has turned into a sword wielding warrior queen and they can only look on in horror as their severed head rolls down the path. Then it's too late to turn around and say 'oh I didn't mean it quite like that'...
Snowqueen. We've met before briefly and I find the controversy of whether you are INFJ versus INTP interesting.

I don't believe I'm much good at judging types (lack of experience and verification), but I'd like to give you my impression here (Ne) purely as a speculation.

You seem to lead with Ti. You are giving reasons all over the place, left and right, for why you are a type. One reason after another and seem to be at ease with it (Ti). Your intuition (Ne) is you ARE this type. If you ARE leading with these two (Ti Ne) that makes you INTP. You could have a very well developed Fe in that you know how to present those INFJ traits.

My understanding is for the INFJ, Ni comes first. But your N is stated objectively as truth. You are telling Adymus what is correct. Isn't that Ne? You are making a strong Fe statement as well. Both INFJ and INTP have Fe. That leaves me uncertain.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Re: Faces of INFJ - INTP symbolic representations

For the heck of it I took your post and translated it using symbols suggested by Adymus in an earlier post:

INTP typical, size implying strength, order implying comfort:
Ti
Ne Si Fe
etc.
I had always simply assumed that type existed in a spectrum of sorts, as you've outlined here. For example, I picture extraversion and introversion as being like a spring which is attached to one side - either the E or I - such that each person's spring is naturally situated at one side or the other, and in order to use a function which is of the opposite kind, you need to in a sense "pull" the spring from one side to the other so that it is now situated at both ends. If this is done well, it can be very hard to tell which side the spring naturally resides at, however it still requires a certain degree of energy to hold the spring there, and eventually you have to let it spring back to one side in order to recharge. Where the difference comes in, is that some people have springs which are more elastic, and can easily enter a mode of using both the introverted and extraverted function, whereas others have a more rigid spring, and thus tend to stay only at one side.

I]|||||___ [E - an introvert in introverted mode

I]|/\/\/\/\/\[E - an introvert in combined mode

This model is a bit oversimplified, since presumably how much you are extraverting at any given time also exists on a spectrum.

You also have a spectrum with regards to the other functions, and this raises the question: are there any constants as to the degree to which a person uses their functions? For example, is the ratio between dominant and auxiliary the same as that between tertiary and inferior (this option seems quite reasonable to me)? or perhaps the sum of dominant and inferior is the same as that of auxiliary and tertiary.
 

BigApplePi

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Re: Faces of INFJ - INTP symbolic representations

I had always simply assumed that type existed in a spectrum of sorts, as you've outlined here. For example, I picture extraversion and introversion as being like a spring which is attached to one side - either the E or I - such that each person's spring is naturally situated at one side or the other, and in order to use a function which is of the opposite kind, you need to in a sense "pull" the spring from one side to the other so that it is now situated at both ends. If this is done well, it can be very hard to tell which side the spring naturally resides at, however it still requires a certain degree of energy to hold the spring there, and eventually you have to let it spring back to one side in order to recharge. Where the difference comes in, is that some people have springs which are more elastic, and can easily enter a mode of using both the introverted and extraverted function, whereas others have a more rigid spring, and thus tend to stay only at one side.

Yes I could see those ratios you talk about as possibles, but I'd see them as tailored to each individual person.

I]|||||___ [E - an introvert in introverted mode

I]|/\/\/\/\/\[E - an introvert in combined mode

This model is a bit oversimplified, since presumably how much you are extraverting at any given time also exists on a spectrum.

You also have a spectrum with regards to the other functions, and this raises the question: are there any constants as to the degree to which a person uses their functions? For example, is the ratio between dominant and auxiliary the same as that between tertiary and inferior (this option seems quite reasonable to me)? or perhaps the sum of dominant and inferior is the same as that of auxiliary and tertiary.
I don't know. Those are things to speculate about. Thoughts. I'm not clear about the difference between introversion and extroversion. I thought I read Adymus saying it had something to do with subjective inner world and objective outer world. If so, what if an INTP brought in heavily things from Ne and Fe into their inner world? Then that INTP would feel a lot more comfortable looking at objective things simply from experience. Less stress, easily entered ... as with a group of old friends. The size of Ne and Fe would be arbitrarily larger if developed.

Last week I met an ENTP. I asked her why she was E. She said, "I can't stand to be alone. When I want to go out and relax I have to be with people." When I left it was too late to ask her, "How would you like to be with me for 12 hours? I would drive you crazy. I would ask you all sorts of questions and then insist on being alone. You wouldn't like that." So I could tolerate her for 12 hours only if she would leave me alone a goodly amount and I didn't feel that pressure to socialize with her on her level every minute. You could use that spring metaphor here.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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subjective inner world and objective outer world.
Yeah, this.

Basically, you should notice that in your field of consciousness, there is a clearly defined outer world, and inner world - the outer world being that which you think of as outside of your head (note: all of your thoughts are technically inside your head, but that's not how you see things), and then the inner subjective world of your thoughts, which you can't see with your direct sense, but can perceive with our imagination senses. Reflect on this distinction in your mind until you fully get the divide.

Now, we are always aware in some way of another of the external environment, the objective world, but as introverts we usually aren't actively involved in what happens in it. An extravert on the other hand would usually not have much active involvement in how their thoughts are unfolding.

Yes, you can bring things from the outside world into your thoughts, but once they are part of your inner thoughts rather than your outer thoughts they will be dealt with as per your introverted functions. Would you be able to give some more examples of what you mean with regards to developing Ne and Fe in this manner?

The ENTP was not E because she could not be away from people for long, but because she had a constant need to exercise her conceptual thought processes in an external manner, and people happen to be a good way to do this. ENTPs may also, for example, be able to spend large amounts of time playing video games, as this involves their extraverted perception to a high degree, and they will be satisfied with this. They may also be content in reading or doing creative activities where they can constantly be letting their intuition say what will come next in the situation. However, the interaction which you get from people makes the process a lot easier and thus extraverts are stereotyped as being more social.

Introverts don't like being around people too long because this generally means having to constantly react to what the other person says in an external way. However, this is not always the case. For example, two introverts may talk for hours and never bore of each other's company provided that they can discuss something which they have each given a lot of thought to, and are able to communicate with from a purely introverted perspective, however for this conversation to continue it would have to essentially consist of each person retreating from what the other person is thinking, going into their own minds to reflect and speaking their reflections out loud. This will typically be much easier to do if typing instead of talking (which is why introverts love the internet).
 

BigApplePi

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Yes, you can bring things from the outside world into your thoughts, but once they are part of your inner thoughts rather than your outer thoughts they will be dealt with as per your introverted functions. Would you be able to give some more examples of what you mean with regards to developing Ne and Fe in this manner?
I'll try. Then see if you agree. I took a few days before replying to your post. It just happened that way but I didn't want to neglect replying. After all you directed something to me. I just got hung up on something else. This acknowledgment is Fe as long as my intentions are to communicate with you who are in my outside world.

I'm aware this is a punctuated conversation. It's not a post-reply-reply-reply each after a few minutes each exchange. That's an objective pattern, not an internal impression. So that is Ne.

I'm also aware that my examples themselves relate more closely to this immediate experience than to something more general which would be preferred IMO. That statement is both Ne and Fe.

I'm thinking about possible flaws in what I've said. Can I be sure to exclude Ni and Fi? (What happened to S? I'm sure I've failed to learn S.) That is Ti. The sharing of that with you is Fe.

Introverts don't like being around people too long because this generally means having to constantly react to what the other person says in an external way. However, this is not always the case. For example, two introverts may talk for hours and never bore of each other's company provided that they can discuss something which they have each given a lot of thought to, and are able to communicate with from a purely introverted perspective, however for this conversation to continue it would have to essentially consist of each person retreating from what the other person is thinking, going into their own minds to reflect and speaking their reflections out loud. This will typically be much easier to do if typing instead of talking (which is why introverts love the internet).
Agreed.
(1) Two introverts can talk provided the subject is mutually stimulating.
(2) At a party, for introverts: friends good; strangers bad. That is because friends stimulate while for strangers the odds are against it. If a stranger stimulates, one's ship has come in because the topic itself has a good chance of originality.
 

Dimensional Transition

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Are you saying that one cannot determine their functions accurately through self-analysis?

If not, then they mustn't understand MBTI properly either.


Consider only this question, and ponder it deeply: are you a P, or a J?
Well, everybody has a pretty biased image of his- or herself. I understand MBTI, but the self-analysis part is one of the points where it just seems flawed.
I think I am a P, but I could be a J. I tend to procrastinate and analyze a lot, but if I have enough knowledge about a subject, I can become quite J. I think most likely I am an INTP, second most-likely would be INFP, and third most likely would be INTJ or INFJ.
 

nil

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It is clear that T- and F- leading functions are always rational, no matter what, and that N- and S- leading functions are always irrational, no matter what. So INTP = Ni leading, INTJ = Ti leading. You can from there go anywhere you want to, since Jung did not explicitly state anything else concerning any other functions (except for a few things about unconscious functions and whatnot), but if you deny this simple fact, then you really have no reason to call what you have Jungian Typology.
 

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Neat discussion, but mildly useless unless connected to anything (thus sayeth Ni, if it's not part of my pattern then it's just semantics or academic). And rather derailing! (Dudes, make a new thread please!)

So, I'm an Ni Fe Ti Se user. I've always tested NFJ, once or twice I've gotten an E (usually like 5% above the divide). I'm a hard N and a strong F.

Ni is patterns. Ni is future prediction. Ni is what the inside of my head is like most of the time. I am making constant future plans (long term and short term). I am running through possibilities, what ifs. Which are geared towards, a potential possible future path in my life if I curved these waves (events) in this direction the aftershock would land me there. Everything is connected. Sometimes, they're part of different webs, but typically everything links back to my central understanding of the universe and how possibilities flow. This sounds very dramatic; this is just light day dreaming for me. Wondering about running into that cute man again, what if I sparked the conversation with this how would he react to that, probably like that, possibly like this. I make jumps very quickly, most people get lost. Usually I can explain it. When I explain it I am not remembering I'm recreating my path and slowing it down. I'm making smaller leaps. I'm going A + B (plus 22 other invisibly things I'm adding) = Z normally, and I take it back to A + B (plus 9 invisible things I'm adding) = L. I recreate my patterns and pull the web I'm working apart until others understand it. I have a lot of INTJ friends, they can almost keep up ;D (I make leaps with emotional situations + dynamics most of the time, where they leap with ideas and not people things.)

Fe is my sandstorm. When I'm emotionally destroyed my Fe is uncovered and I am forced to ride out others emotions all the time. When not destroyed it's like that but with less push. I sense the emotional temperature of every conversation, I read fears and wants. This used to piss me off! I would like a guy and he would like me, but he would do nothing about it. That is because I read the signals so much faster than he could (I seem to like INTs...). Fe has an emotional push to it. I hate using my Fe as a weapon but, I can. My mom recently used Fe to push at me and I, for the first time in a long time (since emotional teenage years), pushed back. It made me sick to my stomach afterwards, but it was the only way I could communicate with her emotional intensity. After I had pushed my Fe out I fell into Ti/Se.

I love Ti. I'm not very good at pushing it out (through my Se), but I think it's awesome. Ti lines things up for me. There is no emotion in this space. It's like a flat plane in my head where facts and logic hang out to be slotted in. I use Ti in writing sometimes, recently I was looking over an INTJ friends writing and struck out 2/3rds of what she wrote. She was explaining/Te'ing/laying out her thoughts on paper. She was trying to explain something and most of the information was superfluous. In Ti things don't really connect, but they do get weighted against each other.

Se is the world. //There's a dark crease in that corner, that wall has purple reflected light, things look warmer there, this carpet hasn't been vacuumed recently, crumb, crumb, crumb. The light dapples with a hard edge close to the blind, the light dapples smear/blur further out.// It's hard to write it out, I could narrate it out loud a lot easier. Se isn't running for me. I've been a runner my whole life and a skier. I need to run for an hour or two a day. I'm Ni'ing while I'm running, thinking about what ifs. Sometimes I run around in the kotor universe, sometimes I spin my own universes, sometimes I'm running through future possiblities in the real world. I run back and forth in my apartment. I recently learned the difference (strongly) between self-destructive and healthy Se. Self-destructive is drinking ("I need a drink to shut my mind up" I do that too often), smoking and other things that force sensations on one's self. It's a darker Se. Healthy Se is like that train of thoughts earlier. It's appreciating sensations. Two days ago I found out I can use Se/Ti to narrate the cognitive functions in action of people around me (I was with an ENFP and an INTJ, they think my skills are neat). There is some dipping of Ni/Fe there but, mostly it's devoid of emotions even if I'm reading emotions. In Se/Ti the emotions don't touch me and I can just deal with facts devoid of infliction.


---
I have to say I don't really understand Si at all, other than it pisses me off ;) my mom is an ISFJ and I know growing up when she tried to teach me math/whatever it would frustrate me and drive me crazy. I felt like I couldn't learn it, she wanted raw memorization...this goes into this goes into this goes into this. All the while my Ni is thinking "what? why? wait, where's the pattern?" I wasn't super great at taking Si and making it into Ni pattern. I've gotten better at building my own webs, but still when she tries to teach me something (usually about accounting or some other real world issue that involves many steps and a lack of meta) it's not super effective.

--

Also, the INFJ guy from earlier is cute and I hope he grows up someday. That's what a bored INFJ sounds like. When you realize you have these skills and that other people can't keep up, that can lead to ego and controlling people. I, personally, went the route of hanging out with people that have 15 or more years on me. When I want someone that can emotionally be in the same order of magnitude as me. Not many people play on my emotional level. I know my emotions, I know my limits. I was recently told I'm good at intimacy, which isn't something I had pieced together like that. It's because I am willing to show my vulnerability and give all of my emotional intensity to people. I know exactly how far away from the shore I can swim before I have to turn back. This came from emotionally burning myself out in the past. In many ways you can tell how healthy & mature an INFJ is by how many emotion scars they have and how they have dealt with them. Does one bury them or acknowledge them?

Also, the Fe coming off of indignant INTPs made me want to give you all hugs. Odds are he doesn't manipulate people in a destructive way, one does not break their toys. Is he a prick? Eh, he's a kid. Baby cobra, is super cute. ;) It's not something I can get worked up over because until he chooses to grow, he won't. Emotional honesty & integrity is the most important thing to me, it is what I value at my core. I rip my Fe apart with my Ni & Ti to make sure I'm not lying to myself. Not all INFJs value that, some like unicorns. (I've never connected with the INFJ forum, too much angst, not enough Ti. The urge to slap 'em upside the head is too high.)
 

kibou

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Nix, you just spoke my heart! I think everything you're saying is spot on. What do you think of the dark/light side of the other functions - Ni, Fe and Ti? You mentioned how Se can be used to shut off Ni with distracting sensations (like drinking), or it can be used as an appreciation of sensations (appreciating the world, the present, kinda Buddhistic, Shambhala-like).

For Fe, I would say that it can be used to become intimate and build a vulnerable but safe connection, while it can also be used to be forceful and to push in a way that's very emotionally intense for others (Fe-style reprimanding is often emotionally harsh unless there's a disciplined Ti filter on what's the most productive way to reprimand).

Also, I find myself experiencing Ni operating in real-time, in a kind of Ni-and-Se fashion; when I use it this way, I think I'm accessing speculations and prediction-style abstract frameworks I've already been building for a while, but I'm also improvising with it in the heat of the moment, which gives me the sensation of a reactive experience, even though it's being done in a pro-active J-style Ni way. etcetc...
 

ProxyAmenRa

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Now I'm interested. God help us all. Why do people exaggerate and personify the predominant characteristics of their particular personality type?
 

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<3 Kibou, I enjoy your posts.

Ni hits negative when you future predict and lock yourself into one possible bad future. An INTJ I know said he has to pull himself out of locked scenarios when playing chess at times, he has to reach into the now and re-see things (using Se most likely). Ni can be really...bad when you only see the one possible future and all clues you grab you push towards that (unknowingly), it leads to stress and spiraling. The only way I have of breaking that cycle is to do something completely different/leave the environment/completely change my available options. And even then it's usually time away that helps.

Yep, Fe pushes, emotionally pushing out at people is definitely the negative aspect of Fe.

Ti isn't something I can identify with positive/negative aspects. It's just a different lens for looking at things for me. I guess the negative of Ti would to be emotionally disconnected from everything and miss out of the people/emotional aspects of things.

Ni-Se working in real time would be I think the optimal use of both functions, but it's something I find very hard to do. It's easy to fall into one or the other, but because they have a repressive relationship that balance it hard to hit.

Why do people exaggerate and personify the predominant characteristics of their particular personality type?
Are you asking why people build patterns? Sorry, I can't turn off my Ni ;) I can "exaggerate and personify" most personality types/functions I have data on. It's just pattern building. This is just how view how I work. I could drill it down to be less emotional and more bullet points, linking in more direct observations I have made, but I would find that boring...if you have a question, I will give you an answer.

Talking with INTJs, their internal voice (which I would call Ni), that lays out and future predicts thing, they seem to build patterns and jump to conclusions like I do. How many shades of blue are there? There are as many as you can differentiate the difference between. Labels are just an easy way of peeling things apart. Really, I personify myself :D and I'm mostly a person so that's okay. It's just a matter of splitting things into different sides. The faces of the INFJ can be visible in one INFJ over the course of a lifetime, it's just different functions waxing and waning.
 
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ProxyAmenRa

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Are you asking why people build patterns? Sorry, I can't turn off my Ni ;) I can "exaggerate and personify" most personality types/functions I have data on. It's just pattern building. This is just how view how I work. I could drill it down to be less emotional and more bullet points, linking in more direct observations I have made, but I would find that boring...if you have a question, I will give you an answer.

Talking with INTJs, their internal voice (which I would call Ni), that lays out and future predicts thing, they seem to build patterns and jump to conclusions like I do. How many shades of blue are there? There are as many as you can differentiate the difference between. Labels are just an easy way of peeling things apart. Really, I personify myself :D and I'm mostly a person so that's okay. It's just a matter of splitting things into different sides. The faces of the INFJ can be visible in one INFJ over the course of a lifetime, it's just different functions waxing and waning.
It is probably the appeals to the metaphysical and use of metaphors which has prompted me to ask the question. It appears to me that people are placating themselves as some sort of special deity.
 

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As an INTJ, all I can say is that the method to employ and answer appear in my mind then I figure out why it works.
 

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It is probably the appeals to the metaphysical and use of metaphors which has prompted me to ask the question. It appears to me that people are placating themselves as some sort of special deity.
I believe deconstructing what people do/how they do it, tagging out actions & different lenses to cognitive functions, you demystify things. I didn't intent to be infjs are super special snowflakes. Just people, people function in a lot of different ways. I happen to know more about people that do this Ni>Fe>Ti>Se dance than other people. I know pieces here at there about how other people function and can usually trace things out.

And having the ability to grow these functions doesn't mean one will. I know an INFJ that is great at manipulation, but when people dislike him, distance themselves from him (me!) or things fall apart, he's left wondering why. He not self-aware enough to see all the moves of what he's doing, or say, put it under a Ti lens to see why people would rationally dislike his methods. On an airplane I met the infj I want to grow up to be! He's in his 50s and was able to throw out questions that he already knew the answers to. He was so at ease with himself and seemed to have patience on a scale I don't--he was amused and understood my impatience. I can't read people anywhere near that level. My main weakness is I can't Ti>Se that well, hopefully I'll get that as I push it more. But when I call out those functions I mean the ability to lay out facts and debate ideas. I can out pace all the intjs I know in terms of people, but when we get to ideas I often find it hard to go that fast (watching an INTJ just Te out loud I can follow, but not play ping-pong with them).
 

katkeyron

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shhhhhhhh stop giving away our secrets


but yeah, to be fair to everyone who thinks INFJs are now everywhere and everything, most of these faces are really facets, and very similar ones at that. There's not as huge of a function shift as it sounds, and INFJs know they're INFJs, whatever they choose to emulate. Other types and other function combinations can just as easily emulate different function patterns (that they might not have) if it aligns with their goals.
 

dark

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From what I am understanding, INFJs went from 1% of the population to 99%? We may as well replace the human term with INFJ then. :D
 

kibou

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they're around 5something% of the population, about as common as every other cognitive configuration, although they are overrepresented in media (because, among many other reasons, media tends to be biased in favor of Xyy (~Fe) facial expression).
 

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Problem with MBTI: it tends to be interpreted locally. Take a group of a single type X, tell them to try and type the other members of the group, and they will probably distribute everyone quite symmetrically across all types, because they are judging according to the neutral point on the dichotomy as defined implicitly by what is the most in the foreground of their consciousness. An opposite effect occurs when considering stereotypes, e.g. guessing at the types of those in a particular career (they know how to computers? must be INTz!!1).
 

pjoa09

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Problem with MBTI: it tends to be interpreted locally. Take a group of a single type X, tell them to try and type the other members of the group, and they will probably distribute everyone quite symmetrically across all types, because they are judging according to the neutral point on the dichotomy as defined implicitly by what is the most in the foreground of their consciousness. An opposite effect occurs when considering stereotypes, e.g. guessing at the types of those in a particular career (they know how to computers? must be INTz!!1).
or ISTP! or ENTJ? I dunno !! maynnn.. missin dem old days when yer had be fuked up to lay yo hands on dem compeuterzz.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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or ISTP! or ENTJ? I dunno !! maynnn.. missin dem old days when yer had be fuked up to lay yo hands on dem compeuterzz.
Now every 13 year old girl has her hands on one.

FUCK YOU, GATES
 

Artsu Tharaz

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L (in avatar) <---- INFJ

:D
kibou noted this, and also how there is another character in the show who was noted as being similar to L, though acted in a totally different way (totally reserved vs more confident) and thus was a nice image of the different directions an INFJ can go.
 

Puffy

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kibou noted this, and also how there is another character in the show who was noted as being similar to L, though acted in a totally different way (totally reserved vs more confident) and thus was a nice image of the different directions an INFJ can go.
Probably Light? Some think he is an INTJ, but I think Lelouch from a different show by the same writer is a better example of an INTJ. Light becomes his ideology to the point that he ignores any sense of morality. I think INFJs are more capable of this than an INTJ. Namely because INTJs have Fi.
 

Suraj

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I identify most (and quite) closely with "The Academic". Also the "ethical-subtype" INFJ discussed elsewhere (and perhaps also here) online.
 

Knoivar

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Hm...

I am an INFJ and I can certainly relate to all of these *variations*/Behaviours in one way or another.

To me they seem to be great generalised concepts of stages of developement that an INFJ go through in order to reach... maturity, so to speak.

Though order, length etc. etc is naturally very... relative. :)


My whole family have their Pi in the bottom stack, and only one of them uses Ni, this actually lead to me behaving more or less like some sort of INTP/ISFJ pseuohybrid-disguise.

Something like this:

Ni (Si) (Ti)

Fe

Ti (Si) (Ni)

Se ?

Which resulted in total confusion, schizotypal tendencies and... other shit.

My mother is an ENFP, her inferior Si has affected me a great deal.

My Tertiary developed before my Auxiliary function, I thus developed a strong "Destroyer of worlds" identity for quite a while..

When my Fe finally started to surface I went apeshit "False prophet" style... Without a doubt the darkest period of my life, very psychotic.. very manipulative, truly fucked up shit that.

I did learn a great deal from it, though... he-he-he... ;P

Enough about me,

Great stuff, fun to read and according to me definitely a useful fun little tool for furthering our understanding of one another! :)
 

Sinny91

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So, why does Jungs description of the INFJ appear to be far removed from the descriptions of the INFJ as described by their internet fanbase?
http://similarminds.com/jung/infj.html

As for those who suggested I may be INFJ, I think all my postings here have pretty much contradicted the Jung description provided above, save for the 'seeking out hidden motives' aspect, and those aspects shared by INTP.
 

marybluesky

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As I see the poster is banned.
A lot of personalities he presents as INFJ are categorized as other types elsewhere (example: Tyler Darden, Joker, both mentioned as ENTP). He exaggerates by giving the INFJ different powers of all types, as if someone has an extraordinary talent & he is T/S, in fact he is a mistyped INFJ, giving the impression that INFJs are capable of doing anything, even while dealing with their inferior aspect.
 

Miss spelt

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So, why does Jungs description of the INFJ appear to be far removed from the descriptions of the INFJ as described by their internet fanbase?
http://similarminds.com/jung/infj.html

As for those who suggested I may be INFJ, I think all my postings here have pretty much contradicted the Jung description provided above, save for the 'seeking out hidden motives' aspect, and those aspects shared by INTP.
...just want to let you know

that those aren't "Jung's" descriptions of "INFJs"

Those are some other asshole's descriptions of INFJs that they believe are most consistent with Jung's typology.

:pueh:
 

hepiaaro

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The academic INFJ fits me well. I thought I was an INTP and so did everyone else. Although I have to say, my academic interests are not a means to achieve some "altruistic" ends. Fe is about more than just "compassion".
 

Draco

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I have a friend that took the test and she claimed to be an ENFP, but I believe that she might have been mistyped. I don't have the most profound, extensive knowledge of the MBTI system, which is what I'm trying to better understand, but I do speculate based on the knowledge I have.



I could be wrong, but she seems like the gypsy/somewhat academic/guru INFJ. She is very wise, even though she is very young, and I find her to be a good consultant and advice provider. Whenever I envision her, I see an old, wise man smoking a pipe and contemplating about the meaning of life. She is very outgoing, appears extroverted and she is quite charismatic. She seems to know everyone and she naturally attracts uncountable amounts of people. Her emotions are somewhat turbulent, and she sometimes loses control of her actions and ends up hurting others when she is threatened. People tend to describe her as a "brute". However, she easily learns from past mistakes and likes to pull life lessons and moral teachings from other people's experiences as well. She is highly future oriented, thinks of the possibilities and already had a set plan for college and future travels when I spoke to her once. If she still is following that plan, I'm not sure. I also asked her about her views on sex and romantic relationships and she mentioned some possibilities of how her future was going to turn out. One possibility was that she would never have sex because she doesn't prioritize sex, and if she would get married she would probably show no affection to her husband and make him do all the housework. The other being that she would have sex, have kids and then send them off to live with her brothers. Her thinking function seems highly developed because she seems to be stimulated by logic. The stories she writes are incredibly meticulous and seem to have a logical flow to them. She loves theories about her favorite stories and creates theories of her own about them. When she tries to convey her ideas to me, her speech often comes out unclear and fragmented. She uses many analogies and she has a way of thinking that I don't notice in many other people. I am intrigued and I like to listen regardless of her lack of clarity. She is very abstract and doesn't like organization, planning and is a bigger procrastinator than a lot of people I have observed. Furthermore, she is an artist and her artwork has this personality and attractive quality that is hard to explain. It's animated, it's quirky, it's deep and emotional and her characters are vivacious. Her characters have been gaining popularity over time. She seems to understand emotion pretty well overall. She can read a lot of people's emotions and see their true motives. She seems to know when something is wrong with them without them having to tell her anything.
She is very leader-like as well.

Despite all that have gathered about her, I believe that I barely scratched the surface of her intellect and subconscious. I am also considering the possibility that she might be the empathetic INTP.
 

MellifluousSky

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I have a friend that took the test and she claimed to be an ENFP, but I believe that she might have been mistyped. I don't have the most profound, extensive knowledge of the MBTI system, which is what I'm trying to better understand, but I do speculate based on the knowledge I have.



I could be wrong, but she seems like the gypsy/somewhat academic/guru INFJ. She is very wise, even though she is very young, and I find her to be a good consultant and advice provider. Whenever I envision her, I see an old, wise man smoking a pipe and contemplating about the meaning of life. She is very outgoing, appears extroverted and she is quite charismatic. She seems to know everyone and she naturally attracts uncountable amounts of people. Her emotions are somewhat turbulent, and she sometimes loses control of her actions and ends up hurting others when she is threatened. People tend to describe her as a "brute". However, she easily learns from past mistakes and likes to pull life lessons and moral teachings from other people's experiences as well. She is highly future oriented, thinks of the possibilities and already had a set plan for college and future travels when I spoke to her once. If she still is following that plan, I'm not sure. I also asked her about her views on sex and romantic relationships and she mentioned some possibilities of how her future was going to turn out. One possibility was that she would never have sex because she doesn't prioritize sex, and if she would get married she would probably show no affection to her husband and make him do all the housework. The other being that she would have sex, have kids and then send them off to live with her brothers. Her thinking function seems highly developed because she seems to be stimulated by logic. The stories she writes are incredibly meticulous and seem to have a logical flow to them. She loves theories about her favorite stories and creates theories of her own about them. When she tries to convey her ideas to me, her speech often comes out unclear and fragmented. She uses many analogies and she has a way of thinking that I don't notice in many other people. I am intrigued and I like to listen regardless of her lack of clarity. She is very abstract and doesn't like organization, planning and is a bigger procrastinator than a lot of people I have observed. Furthermore, she is an artist and her artwork has this personality and attractive quality that is hard to explain. It's animated, it's quirky, it's deep and emotional and her characters are vivacious. Her characters have been gaining popularity over time. She seems to understand emotion pretty well overall. She can read a lot of people's emotions and see their true motives. She seems to know when something is wrong with them without them having to tell her anything.
She is very leader-like as well.

Despite all that have gathered about her, I believe that I barely scratched the surface of her intellect and subconscious. I am also considering the possibility that she might be the empathetic INTP.
ENFPs are often quirky, empowering, emotional, and embracing story-tellers who read people well (Ne-Fi). Fi is the stuff from which good artistry can spring forth. Si would help with learning from past mistakes, namely comparing and contrasting the present with the past if they can keep Ne from shooting them off to stars too far away. Finally Te logic would certainly be noticeable at the tertiary position.
 

dang

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Note To INTPForum:
Okay, so I actually wrote this thread for the INFJ forum, which is why you will notice it is written as if speaking to INFJs. However, I am posting it here as well, because I thought you guys might enjoy this as well. Also, I am sick and tired of explaining why certain personalities are INFJs, just because they don't match the descriptions. I'm finally setting the record straight, so there.

Preface:

The INFJ personality type is by in large most misunderstood type. This is mainly do to the incompetence of MBTI implementation, by introducing personality types by a single description. Nobody was ever meant to match up perfectly to a single description. The MBTI descriptions are really only describing what the personality type will be like if they have only their top two functions developed. You see if a personality has well developed lower functions, or a well developed Tertiary and under developed Auxiliary, then they will contradict the description. The only real way to grasp a personality type is if you took a whole free range of many different models of said personality type, and let people swim around in it. But you can't really do that on the internet, or in a book now can you? This is why I advise you all to stop relying on matching people to internet descriptions, and start experiencing the Cognitive functions and personality types on your in, in the real world. To quote the great Carl Jung:

"Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart through the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul."
-Carl Jung


Now while just about every type is in some way misunderstood to the vast majority of the MBTI community, the INFJ in particular was hit the hardest. There is an interesting phenomenon with the INFJ that I am pointing out in this thread: Depending on how an INFJ has developed, they can express their use of cognitive functions in ways that are radically different than other INFJ. There are INFJ that seem like T's, or S's, INFJs that seem like Extroverts or even Ps. INFJs that want to go out and save the world, and then INFJs that just want to shit on everything. The purpose of this thread is to introduce you into the possible models that INFJs in the world can turn out to be. Some them good, some of them bad, some of them just plain weird. While I am splitting INFJs into sub-types in this thread, keep in mind that none of them are a single sub-type, some of these sub-types mark a single ability that every INFJ has access to. This thread only explores the possible forms one might take when they are using the Ni-Fe-Ti-Se apparatus.
Enjoy.


The Academic:

This kind of INFJ is more often than not, confused for an INTJ, or even INTP. They still want to change the world and progress man kind in some way, but sometimes you got to play by science’s rules to cover any ground. While their focus in some way is usually still on people, they approach their research from a very academic and scientific stand point, without necessarily going out to personally teach the world in the INFJ mentor like way you would expect. Naturally these INFJs have a very well developed Ti, so well developed that they themselves would consider themselves thinkers before considering themselves feelers. But make no mistake; this is not Ni-Te they are using. Ni-Fe has a very distinct perception of worldview, and it can be maybe sense out of in a very logical manner using their Ti tertiary. But it is still just Ti’ed Ni-Fe. The Academics often do not use their Fe as warmly as the others might, this is for two reasons: Academia is srs bsns and when delivering facts and upholding an aura of authority, you don’t to look like a used car sales man. This is also because while they are talking, they are often running what they are going to say through Ti in real time, just to make sure everything is locally coherent. When you use Ti it withdrawals us from the world of personal connections, so it will actually deadpan and drop the emotion on your face (being an INTP myself, that is one I know all too well). If you grew up around a lot of Ti users, you are probably going to come out pretty similar to this, as an INFJ. Considering from day one, you really needed to have your theories tightened up in order for anyone to take you seriously. Sure it might have been brutal at first, but look at the bright side, now you have a really sweet Ti to help you take on the world with!
Fictional Examples: Professor Charles Xavier (X-Men)
Real-Life Examples: Dr. Drew, Paul Eckman, Carl Jung (Controversy time!)


The Method Actor

“Everybody knows you never go full retard”

This one right here, my friends, might just be the reason you INFJs have been documented as the rarest of types. Oh the power of the persona, when you project and image, people will create your identity based on that image, regardless of what is actually going on in your head. This marks an extremely uncanny ability that you INFJ folk have. The INFJ can invent an character within their Ni-Fe. They can write an entire story of their life, their family, their experience, their fears, their motivations, their quirks and mannerisms all within their Ni. Then when the time comes, then can channel that character into their Fe and Se to perfectly embody that role, in ways that can be so nuanced that you might not even know you are looking at the same person. Even if acting isn’t your thing, every INFJ still has this in them, and it often comes out in other ways. An INFJ could enter a completely foreign country, and within weeks, or even days, completely master their culture, and maybe even accent.

Fictional Examples: Song (M.Butterfly), Kirk Lazarus (Tropic Thunder)
Real-life Examples: Sasha Baron Cohen, and anyone who can properly play the Master of Masks prestige class in Dungeons and Dragons.

The Guru

“Life can be found only in the present moment. The past is gone, the future is not yet here, and if we do not go back to ourselves in the present moment, we cannot be in touch with life.”

Whether they are aware of this or not, just about every INFJ is in some way in search for enlightenment, some of them actually find it (Well, at least they think they did), and these are the Guru INFJs. The mentor instinct runs strong in the INFJ breed, and the sage illuminates those that surround her. So the next step is to use that collection of Ni natural law to progress the consciousness of the rest of humanity, by teaching it to the world… Or a handful of disciples. Now hopefully what they teach is something that can be applied to all personalities, and not just their own; I’m looking at you Eckhart Tolle, you German bastard! Just because you are an INFJ doesn’t mean we all are! You can just send any personality type into the desert for a few days, and expect them to come back thirty years older and with a boat load of insights of natural law, like the INFJs can. What is up with that anyway? I swear, you INFJs could stare at a chair for an hour and end up seeing the meaning of life somewhere in it.

Fictional Examples: Jesus, lol (If any Christians are reading this, then I am totally kidding. If not… Yeah…)
Real-Life examples: The Dalai Lama, Timothy Leary, Thich Nhat Hanh

The False Guru

“You can get your vitamins and nourishment from vitamins and minerals contained within food, or you can bypass food and hook into what we call the universal life force which is prahna.”

Again, the search for enlightenment and the mentor drive is pervasive among the INFJ. But not all that glitters is gold, and with all do respect, some of them are completely full of shit. Some of them are even aware that they are full of shit, and some of them are not, either way, these are the False Gurus. Just peruse the New Age movement for a little while and you are bound to see quite a few of these. They are usually surrounded by a cohort of poorly developed personalities (mainly NFs and SFs, But I have seen many others in these circles, even NTs) because all of the strong personalities who can smell their bullshit a mile away, leave. Which is all the better, weak minds don’t ask questions, which is perfect because the False Guru can’t answer them. All they can really do is sound really mystical and wifty and charm the hell out of you. Generally speaking, this is mainly the result of an INFJ who avoided their Ti, and are scared to death of the rest of the Ti and Te in the world, so they make sure they surround themselves with people with even weaker abilities than they have. While most False Guru’s teachings are pretty benign, some of them are very dangerous (Google the word Breatharianism), and could lead to cults as well as very destructive behavior. There is also the breed of false gurus that are deliberately manipulating and lying to people, just so they can be validated and worshiped as a messiah. Watch out for them, they are nothing more than energy vampires feeding off the praise of the faithful. So the next time you hear a Guru trying to tell people about the world, you really need to think critically about what they are saying. Nature wouldn’t have given us judgment if we were not expected to use it.
You didn’t really think I would have only good things to say about types of INFJs, right? Where light is cast, there will always be shadows. Don’t think for a second that just because Kiersey decided to call your kind “The Protectors”, it means you are all going to be a bunch of god damn do-gooders. Ni with Fe can give extremely powerful abilities, and with great power comes great responsibility. Sometimes this power falls into the wrong hands, and that is why there is a light and dark side to Ni.

Fictional Examples: I got nothing.
Real-Life Examples: Jazmuheen, Harley "[FONT=&quot]SwiftDeer[/FONT]" Reagan


The Cobra:

“OoOoOoOo, That’s a bingo!”

INFJs are not necessarily only good for long-range planning and being a visionary. They can be pretty damn scary when using that Ni and Fe for manipulative purposes.
The Cobra uses their Fe to be playful and seductive to get people to disarm and loosen up, all the while keeping a close Ni look on what is going on, drinking in as much information as possible with Se, and reserving their actions until their Ni tells them the perfect time to strike. And when they do, they go straight for the jugular. The name “Cobra” comes from the posture they sometimes take with their head upright and eyes narrowed, still, and looking straight forward onto their prey. Cobras make perfect secret agents and interrogators, which is why many of them are. They can read their subjects with uncanny accuracy and know just what to say and exactly how to act to get what they want out of anyone. Sometimes they can even get people to admit to crimes they didn’t even commit; luckily they know when they are lying too. Ever heard a person who could talk their way out being charged for murder? They were probably a Cobra INFJ. Don’t get charmed by the smile, watch the eyes, if you get strung along by their hypnotic Fe display, they fucking got you where they want you. All INFJs have a little bit of Cobra in them, what you do with it is entirely up to you. For the most part it is actually a defense mechanism, and they will embody the cobra for a quick escape when trouble arises.

Fictional Examples: Col. Hans Landa (Inglourious Basterds), Jarlaxle Baenre (Forgotten Realms, The Dark Elf Saga), Bill (Kill Bill)
Real-Life Examples: Bjork (Seriously.)


The Gypsy King:

The Gypsy King (or Queen) actually goes hand in hand with the Cobra, because they are really two sides of the same coin; the twin masters of INFJ trickery. However, the Gypsy uses their manipulation tactics for outright conning people. Now there seems to be an association with the ESTP and confidence artistry. I would say it is pretty undeserved; when it comes to manipulation, the sharky used car salesman ESTP, is child’s play when compared to the cunning foresight and hypnotic charm of the INFJ. The Gypsy King can figure a person out within seconds. A tattoo, a bruise, dark circles under the eyes, person looks down and to the left while talking, an expensive watch, tan lines on arms, all kinds of these random details that they take in through Se are their gateway into the minds of people, and then with a little speculation out of their Ni-Fe and Ti, they can have your whole life figured out within a blink of an eye, and know exactly how to approach you. Have you ever been to a psychic, who seemed to know everything about you? Things they couldn’t have possibly have known? Yeah, you just got INFJ’ed, Gypsy style. Conning people isn’t all malicious either, sometimes it is just good entertainment. That is why many of the Gypsy INFJs are Magicians; casting spells of perceptual redirection with displays of Fe and Se, to distract the audience in order to miss what is happening behind it all.

Fictional Examples: Shawn Spencer (Psych)
Real-Life Examples: John Edward, Criss Angel (MINDFREAK!!!111)

The Revolutionary:

“The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.”

Fuck yeah! What would this guide be without the INFJ Revo-motherfucking-lutionary!? The Revolutionary aspect is to the INFJs, as Superman is to the Superfriends, INDESPENSIBLE! I mean, this isn’t even a face of the INFJ, this is the INFJ. The INTJs might have been nick named “The Mastermind”, but being a mastermind really comes from being an Ni dominant more than it does from being a Thinker. The INFJ Revolutionaries are masterminds in their own right, visionaries of the people. Literally beginning as children, INFJs go through life observing the world. The inner workings of society, human behavior, and natural law become clear to them through their observations and experience. Naturally, their Ni begins expanding as their worldview, and through it they acquire a future vision of what the world should be like. The world would be so much better if it worked the way it did in their Ni, but it doesn’t, and that just fucking pisses them off. This deep dissatisfaction for the world as it is now is what fuels the revolutionary fire that burns in the hearts of the INFJ. Because the solutions to all of the world’s problems are obvious, so obvious that it is maddening to think that they and a few others are the only people who can see it. This dissatisfaction for society creates a certain adversarial nature for the INFJ, it is them against the world. But no matter, if the world we live in sucks, just make a new one!

Fictional Examples: V (V for Vendetta), Drizzt Do’Urden (Forgotten Realms, The Dark Elf Saga)
Real-Life Examples: Che Guevara, Martin Luther King

The Destroyer of worlds:

“Why me, because it's my revenge on this robotic society, because someone has to do it.”

The adversarial nature and discontent with society, is natural for the INFJs. However, at times, their adversarial worldview can become so strong that it turns to hatred, and the point of view that humans are just too stupid to live up to what they think they should live up to. The worse cases are when INFJs are also not in touch with their Fe. Their Ni will continue growing, and their Ti will make sense of it, but because they never get that push back for Fe, their worldview just becomes more and more detached and distorted from reality. This only perpetuates their hatred, because at the times they do try to articulate their distorted worldview, they are met with resistance from other people. Which leads them to a perspective that is no humans are worth saving, they are all just mindless idiots. Obviously these are very extreme cases, but make no mistake; they do exist, and have always existed. The Destroyers might even gain enough power to lead their own revolution, but it will be a revolution of hatred, destruction, and death. These kinds of INFJ also make some of the best villains in fiction, which everyone mistakes for INTJs on the forums. Apparently evil = T.

Fictional Examples: The Joker (Batman), Rorschach (The Watchmen), Tyler Durden (Fight Club), Light Yagami (Deathnote)
Real-Life Examples: GG Allin, Hitler (More controversy time!)

The SP Wannabe:

“Let me tell you a little something about the universe. Fuck you.”

Nobody expects the SP wannabe! They are the face of INFJ that as soon as most people see, they automatically think “ESTP”. Little do they know there is a massive worldview and understanding of human kind and natural law behind that rough and tumble exterior. They are by in large the most in your face and Alpha Male/Female you can get with the INFJ breed. It is actually quite normal and even common for all personality types to have a fetishy relationship with their inferior function. For the INFJ, this fetish comes in the flavor of Se. They go out into the world, grab Se by the balls, and show the world who’s in charge. This is how they master their shadow, by fighting it head on becoming their Shadow’s master. Most if not all INFJs take on the aspect of the SP wannabe for at least brief periods of time. It could be through martial arts, racing, cooking, a good friend of mine does it through Hula Hooping. It is all a part of learning how to live in the now. Some INFJs take this fetish to a whole new level, almost fascinated with the sensations; Retelling stories emphasizing every gory detail they can remember in full detail.

Fictional Examples: The Comedian (The Watchman)
Real-Life Examples: Henry Rollins, GG Allin again.
I am an INFJ. "The Revolutionary" fits me very accurately. Beware.
 

dang

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So, why does Jungs description of the INFJ appear to be far removed from the descriptions of the INFJ as described by their internet fanbase?
http://similarminds.com/jung/infj.html

As for those who suggested I may be INFJ, I think all my postings here have pretty much contradicted the Jung description provided above, save for the 'seeking out hidden motives' aspect, and those aspects shared by INTP.
I just got a three month ban from INFJ forum. Can I stalk you here?
 

dang

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INFJ forum and INTP forum seem like different planets.
 

dang

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This place could be fun. Home? No. But fun? Perhaps. My first impression is you all tend to be serious, intellectual, and thorough. And somewhat humorless as well. And emotionally detached. Alright. I will quit while I am ahead. I hope I didn't just get banned already. You never know.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Only if you ohgodplz stop multiposting.

There's an edit function :)

Also, check the date on posts you respond to, Adymus hasn't been with us for quite some time.

I don't have experience with INFJforum, so I can't say. We've got a fairly broad range of people here. It's not that we're all serious, it's that we kind of compartmentalise our silliness. The topics that are being argued get serious, but then we have the arena for all manner of bizarre shenanigans.

I don't know why you got banned from INFJ, but while we are generally fairly lax with rules, if what you did on INFJforum is not permitted here, I'd urge you to break from your habit while under our roof. More often than not, people that come here having been banned by other forums turn out to be a fair bit of trouble on the sophistroll of proselatysing front.
 

Sinny91

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dang

Active Member
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Only if you ohgodplz stop multiposting.

There's an edit function :)

Also, check the date on posts you respond to, Adymus hasn't been with us for quite some time.

I don't have experience with INFJforum, so I can't say. We've got a fairly broad range of people here. It's not that we're all serious, it's that we kind of compartmentalise our silliness. The topics that are being argued get serious, but then we have the arena for all manner of bizarre shenanigans.

I don't know why you got banned from INFJ, but while we are generally fairly lax with rules, if what you did on INFJforum is not permitted here, I'd urge you to break from your habit while under our roof. More often than not, people that come here having been banned by other forums turn out to be a fair bit of trouble on the sophistroll of proselatysing front.
I am no problem. Ask Sinny91. I have gotten to know her pretty well over the past few months since I joined INFJ forum. I just share her frustration with that forum. I didn't really get banned. I just received a three month ban for posting a picture of a big dick. Unfortunately it was not my own. I tried to get banned. I succeeded. They are a bunch of hypocrites and puritans. I think I needed to move on. I like INFJs. We tend to be caring people. But I feel the non INFJs ruin that forum more than anything. I might as well be an outsider here. I guess we (Sinny91 and I) are both sort of polarizing over there. I am very popular over there. But at the same time a few members gave me a lot of shit. I despise rudeness. Be civil if you have an issue with me. That's all I ask. Thanks for replying to my posts. I will try to single post from now on. If you have any more guidance I am receptive. Nice to meet you. Later.
 

Sinny91

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Only if you ohgodplz stop multiposting.

There's an edit function :)

Also, check the date on posts you respond to, Adymus hasn't been with us for quite some time.
Didn't you hear? I am Adymus.

Ha, no, I'm just fuckin with someone.
 
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