Do We Use Our Tertiary Functions More Efficiently Than Our Auxiliary Functions?

[TriflinThomas]

I've been mulling this over for weeks now, and can't seem to figure it out... Do we use our tertiary functions more efficiently than our auxiliary functions? Because they're (for lack of the proper term) positioned in the same direction as our dominant functions.

PS: if someone could show me how to mention someone in a post, I would be forever grateful.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I imagine we don't necessarily use our tertiary function more efficiently than our auxiliary, but it's tertiary for a reason, and thus I presume we likely do.

 

[TriflinThomas]

Well, I remember someone using the example of the ying-yang sign when explaining the usage of the functions (where the large parts were the dominant and tertiary, and the small dots were the aux and inferior funcs) and that made sense to me. Not sure if it's completely true, but it seems pretty plausible.

 

[Chad]

How you mention someone in your post, place an @ sign and copy there name next to it like this

@TriflinThomas

You should copy it form title area so that its is a link. I hope that explains it well enough.

 

[Hadoblado]

My auxiliary function is far more prominent than my tertiary.

 

[BigApplePi]

I've been mulling this over for weeks now, and can't seem to figure it out... Do we use our tertiary functions more efficiently than our auxiliary functions? Because they're (for lack of the proper term) positioned in the same direction as our dominant functions.

PS: if someone could show me how to mention someone in a post, I would be forever grateful.

What auxiliary function? The theory goes (I think) that if your lead is i, it should be supported by something e. You need that support. Is the tertiary more efficient? What efficiency? Don't know what that means.

 

[Paladin-X]

Well, I remember someone using the example of the ying-yang sign when explaining the usage of the functions (where the large parts were the dominant and tertiary, and the small dots were the aux and inferior funcs) and that made sense to me. Not sure if it's completely true, but it seems pretty plausible.

I think of it exactly the same way!

Jung talked about being aware of two distinct personalities called Number 1 and Number 2. 1 was his ego and 2 was his shadow. For him, 1 = ST and 2 = NF.

He also describes a master/slave relationship between the principal and auxiliary function, as well as the tertiary and inferior.

 

[Fukyo]

How you mention someone in your post, place an @ sign and copy there name next to it like this

@TriflinThomas

You should copy it form title area so that its is a link. I hope that explains it well enough.

You don't need to copy the link just type out the name after @

 

[InvisibleJim]

We use our tertiary functions creatively, we use our auxiliary function as parental guidance.

Sirs.

 

[TriflinThomas]

@Fukyo @Chad testing... Thanks lol

 

[TriflinThomas]

@BigApplePi I mean that someone with tertiary Ti would use it more like a Ti dominant would (in regards to their degree of comfort with using the function, not how often they use it). I know this is anecdotal, but I'm confident in my Ti more than I am with my Fe, though I use my Fe more often. I haven't fully hashed it out, I just wanted to get it out there and get some input on it

 

[Ink]

I think the dominant-tertiary loop is used for everyone when dealing with stress, good auxilliary usage indicates psychological health in a way...

This article touches à bit on it I think... Ti-Si, getting stuck in a rut... http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP_per.html

 

[Ink]

@BigApplePi I mean that someone with tertiary Ti would use it more like a Ti dominant would (in regards to their degree of comfort with using the function, not how often they use it). I know this is anecdotal, but I'm confident in my Ti more than I am with my Fe, though I use my Fe more often. I haven't fully hashed it out, I just wanted to get it out there and get some input on it

ISFJs use Ti just to assist them in their listmaking, I think your Ni just deals with things in a similar way to Ti-Ne making it harder to distinguish them, sort of...

 

[Architect]

That's a very interesting theory. Note that it's the inferior which is in opposition to the dominant, and the tertiary in opposition to the secondary.

Consider Ti-Ne-Si-Fe. Ti & Fe are complete opposites to each other, in fact in opposition. The one seeking logic the other emotional support. Likewise Ne & Si. This opposition is what gives us the functional stack, the (especially immature) dominate wants to suppress the inferior, and as it is the strongest function is the most successful. Likewise for the other two, giving us the relative strengths of Ti-Ne-Si-Fe.

To your question, do we use it more efficiently I think the answer is no. Efficiency means skill and practice, which goes to the first two functions. The latter two don't get much psychic energy, so are less efficient. The stack tells you how good, or efficient you are at the relative functions, in that order.

Thinking of myself I easily fall into Ne - usually socializing but certainly while working - while I much less Si (mull over the past or think of past information or experience). The conscious psyche is basically a tug of war between Ti & Ne. Ti is the taskmaster that keeps us going, while Ne wants to hang out, be lazy and explore.

 

[Chad]

@Fukyo @Chad testing... Thanks lol

Confirmed. Out

 

[BigApplePi]

@TriflinThomas

I mean that someone with tertiary Ti would use it more like a Ti dominant would (in regards to their degree of comfort with using the function, not how often they use it). I know this is anecdotal, but I'm confident in my Ti more than I am with my Fe, though I use my Fe more often. I haven't fully hashed it out, I just wanted to get it out there and get some input on it

You are talking Ti? I imagine there is something sharp or more clear about thinking that makes it more self-conscious than feeling. Don't know. A Ti dominant may be more sophisticated about thinking whereas a tertiary Ti person would be more specialized. Does that make any sense? I've forgotten what you said your type was.

 

[Words]

dominant-tertiary loop

This. It's talked about a lot in many typology forums. There's Ti-Si, Ni-Fi, Ni-Ti, Ti-Ni, Te-Se, Ne-Te etc. Usually I hear more about introverted looping. I don't hear much about Fi-Si and other forms of loops. Initially, I didn't really like the idea because it kind of goes against the point of function hierarchy but...it's out there alright. My INTJ friend is particularly the Ni-Fi kind. He's a conspiracy-nut who completely ignores his Te empirical function, and just believes in anything.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Yes, but how efficiently do we use our artillery function?

 

[BigApplePi]

Tertiary Function Usage

@Architect

Thinking of myself I easily fall into Ne - usually socializing but certainly while working - while I much less Si (mull over the past or think of past information or experience).

Are we neglecting other tertiary Si factors? While allowing memories into one's consciousness is a sensory experience of sorts, what about a hot room? The INTP can experience that as much as anyone impacting themselves. It is Si and not Se as long as one doesn't pass objective judgments about the room temperature. "I feel hot" is an INTP experience. Consider any sensory experience as long as it is experienced relating to oneself as opposed to relating objectively to everyone.

This Si opposes Ne in the sense it instantly blocks out broader Ne views. One can think about it to the frame of mind of wondering why it is happening so Ti and Si can work together. Si is separate from Fe because it is internal to the self but relates to it if one externalizes by complaining, "It's too damn hot in here."
++++++++++++++++++++

I forgot something. If I'm trying to develop some theory and make it rational (Ti), I need broad intuition (Ne) to check out if everything fits. But this breath of intuition absolutely requires data to check out specifics. The act of collecting data is pure Si in the sense it must fit internally into the system. I may go fishing for external specifics (Se), but only so long as to convert the Se to Si. All this result is inductive reasoning (Ti). If I write this up to talk to you, that's Fe. If it becomes accepted as more than a theory, that's Te.

Now my question is, am I using the above two letter terms correctly or am I seriously FOS?

 

[Ink]

This. It's talked about a lot in many typology forums. There's Ti-Si, Ni-Fi, Ni-Ti, Ti-Ni, Te-Se, Ne-Te etc. Usually I hear more about introverted looping. I don't hear much about Fi-Si and other forms of loops. Initially, I didn't really like the idea because it kind of goes against the point of function hierarchy but...it's out there alright. My INTJ friend is particularly the Ni-Fi kind. He's a conspiracy-nut who completely ignores his Te empirical function, and just believes in anything.

There's plenty of Fe-Ne out there etc if you look for it... Personally I see using my Ne as getting out of my comfort zone but I'm not sure how accurate that is...

 

[TriflinThomas]

ISFJs use Ti just to assist them in their listmaking, I think your Ni just deals with things in a similar way to Ti-Ne making it harder to distinguish them, sort of...

That's likely, I still don't fully understand Ni

@TriflinThomas
You are talking Ti? I imagine there is something sharp or more clear about thinking that makes it more self-conscious than feeling. Don't know. A Ti dominant may be more sophisticated about thinking whereas a tertiary Ti person would be more specialized. Does that make any sense? I've forgotten what you said your type was.

Yeah (I get what you're saying), I'm just wondering if thinking of the functions as decreasing in usage/adeptness as one moves from dom to inferior isn't exactly correct; it's kinda hard to explain in writing lol. (I'm infj btw)

 

[Duxwing]

Yes, but how efficiently do we use our artillery function?

Speaking of artillery, have you read the latest version of Noah and Sloan? I've updated it quite a bit recently.

-Duxwing

 

[Montresor]

I think a Ti-Si loop happens when the INTP fails to use their extraverted perceiving function when judging.

So what happens is one winds up validating judgements with Si. I do believe this could potentially be quite an efficient process, yes, but it has its shortcomings. Namely, Si does not always represent what IS in the external environment.

If your internal database is up-to-date and filed properly, then you could seemingly make swift, cold, efficient judgements in a purely introverted fashion.

Is it more efficient than using Ne first? Again, I think the possibility is yes it is. More effective? No way. What are you trying to achieve? Anything important?

I think the tertiary position can be argued to not always have a clear I/E preference, which opens up the freedom to use our sensory abilities in various ways, such as with Se. Maybe the tertiary function in-itself could be seen as yin and yang. My theory is this is another reason why INTPs sometimes think they are ISTP (a pattern of looking for clues in the environment to validate Ti judgements), but this occurs with the notable absence of Ni in an INTP, which makes them (ISTP) much more efficient at it, because Ni is more reliable than Si at self-validating Ti judgements.

 

[Reluctantly]

I've been mulling this over for weeks now, and can't seem to figure it out... Do we use our tertiary functions more efficiently than our auxiliary functions? Because they're (for lack of the proper term) positioned in the same direction as our dominant functions.

The thing that is important to understand is that Jung described eight functions, wherein to use each function you have to repress another. It's fundamental to types and this repression then has an influence over what function is being used (via the unconscious). This is what separates it from MBTI and actually makes it rather insightful.

Basically then, if you use your dominant function, it is both influenced by the inferior and repressing usage of the inferior.

Now, a lot of people claim on MBTI forums that they have to "Work On" their unconscious functions and that it takes time to develop such things. That said, making a conscious effort to improve in certain areas is related to the idea of a superego. Unconscious functions, on the other hand, don't really need to be worked on because they are instincts; rather the ego protects and regulates our instincts through repression and it is a kind of spiritual growth to free them from our ego's control in such a way that harmonizes with reality. So please keep this in mind as people often confuse the two concepts.

Another thing to keep in mind is that as Jung conceived his ideas, he didn't think the tertiary and auxiliary has the same strong effect of repression that the dominant and inferior would, so much so that he didn't even bother to talk about it...

All that said, to answer your question, when you free the unconscious it can become conscious. And my answer your question is "Yes". But BTW, SimulatedWorld's loop theory pathologizes using the tertiary with his own interpretation of how certain types can be unhealthy...but it is not prolonged tertiary usage with the dominant usage that makes someone unhealthy, but extreme introversion or extroversion. His theoretical mistake is that Jung already explained the conceptual pathology of each function in the introvert/extrovert extreme while keeping it conceptual...Sim's theory seems to assume the dominant function is pathological and then adds a flavor of a pathological tertiary onto it, but he doesn't even stay conceptual, concluding behaviors that will not always be when pathological. This is something that really bugs me btw, especially when everyone is quick to congratulate him for such muddling and misleading efforts. But maybe you will understand what I'm saying.

 

[Words]

That's likely, I still don't fully understand Ni

Imagination.


That's basically really it. Don't get the fuss over it.

 

[Reluctantly]

I hereby declare war on Words, the self-appointed arbiter of truth.

 

[Ink]

I hereby declare war on Words, the self-appointed arbiter of truth.

What he is saying is the truth though... What more would it be?

 

[Reluctantly]

What he is saying is the truth though... What more would it be?

Not really dude...but I'm not going to argue with you if you already decided that's true...it would be stupid on my part.

 

[Ink]

Not really dude...but I'm not going to argue with you if you already decided that's true...it would be stupid on my part.

Imagination of likely events? What more would you say Ni is?

 

[Reluctantly]

That's like saying people that don't use Ni have no imagination. All the introverted functions take quite a bit of imagination. And I'd find it strange to suggest that Ne, which is centered around intuition, wouldn't relate to imagination to some extent.

I'm honestly not sure what you guys think you are accomplishing by suggesting that. Would you perhaps want to explain Ni as a particular kind of imagination? that would be easier to hear and accept as insightful...

 

[Reluctantly]

Imagination of likely events?

Thing is conceptually, Ni is irrational and it's about perception. It conceptually doesn't deal in probabilities. Ni might see a momentary direction things are going and foreshadow what would happen if they continue that way over a period of time; that's not so much about determining the future though, as it is informing people of the possible consequences that could result from momentary circumstances. Call it mystical if you want even. It's also often said that in order to think like this one has to see things into terms of archetypes, so I suppose you could also say Ni is about seeing and discovering archetypes as well. Kind of like how I decided not to engage you until I thought you were willing to question what you know as the truth. Did I predict the future? No, but I knew what would happen if you weren't willing to hear an alternative truth (a kind of archetypal thinking/behavior). And if you hadn't changed your mind, I would have known the future before it happened. But that doesn't mean I was predicting the future exactly.

 

[Architect]

Re: Tertiary Function Usage

@ArchitectAre we neglecting other tertiary Si factors? While allowing memories into one's consciousness is a sensory experience of sorts, what about a hot room?

@BigApplePi

No not forgetting, Si is also a function that is attuned to internal sensory perceptions. For example, I've always been attuned to the state of my digestive system. So much so that I'm very particular about what I eat and how I eat it. Compare this to many people I know who shove themselves full of food. My INTP son is the same way, he's really particular about food more than I am.

Speaking of which, on your 'heated room' example, my son is really bad at noticing the environment, and suffers from this. He'll have his coat on at school, the room will be turned up, he gets too hot then gets sick. But then wouldn't his Si kick in to let him know? Well the tertiary doesn't develop until older anyhow.

But it's not a hard science.

 

[Words]

Re: Tertiary Function Usage

Imagination of likely events?

Nope. Just imagination.

That's like saying people that don't use Ni have no imagination. All the introverted functions take quite a bit of imagination. And I'd find it strange to suggest that Ne, which is centered around intuition, wouldn't relate to imagination to some extent.

What if everyone has Ni? Ne is related to imagination, but not as strongly and perfectly "fitting" as Ni is. Imagination is about forming a perspective on something...and that really is Ni. Ne is more like "connection"...er I was thinking "Invention" and "Innovation"...I don't think there's neat and precise word out there that describes it.

I hereby declare war on Words, the self-appointed arbiter of truth.

Ooo, sounds like fun. How does it work?

 

[Montresor]

Ne is perceiving information outwardly in an abstract fashion, used by INTPs to facilitate Ti, right?

Ni is perceiving information inwardly in an abstract fashion, used by ENTJs to facilitate Te.

Which one really sounds like it fosters imagination?


"Forming a perspective" isn't accomplished without the use of T. Ni is just "making connections" inwardly and is coupled best with Te to present the connections to the world in an objective fashion.

Imagination (defined by Wikipedia) is the ability to form new images and sensations that are not perceived through sight, hearing, or other senses. Sounds like intuition, sure.

Elaborating, Wikipedia also says "it is a whole cycle of image formation or any sensation which may be described as "hidden" as it takes place without anyone else's knowledge." Ohh sounds more like Ni to me.

I think INTP imagination is slightly different, and probably skips over the auxiliary function most of the time. It's probably more like Ti/Si. Innovation/invention on the other hand, these deal directly with the outside world, absolutely requiring perception of external data. This is where Ne could step in and outshine Te, because Ne is powered by introspection (Ti-Si) while Te is powered by imagination (Ni-Fi).

Sorry, I wanted to take the side of INTP, but after compiling this wikidata, I have to side with Words. *this is part of how war works. now you have an ally.

 

[Architect]

"Imagination" is an imprecise word. Speaking about Ni, my observations of my Ni dominant wife are that first and foremost it is a function which finds internal, personal possibilities. Even in conversation, have a chat with an INFJ and they'll bring up tangents and possibilities about five times a minute (it can be hard to keep a conversation on track).

Compare that to my Ne which finds outward possibilities. I'm fascinated by larger than life possibilities. The Singularity, space travel, history, etc. With her Ni/Fe combination she is focused on interpersonal and personal possibilities. She describes it as "possibly the best job for an INFJ is to be an High School college adviser.

 

[Reluctantly]

What if everyone has Ni? Ne is related to imagination, but not as strongly and perfectly "fitting" as Ni is. Imagination is about forming a perspective on something...and that really is Ni. Ne is more like "connection"...er I was thinking "Invention" and "Innovation"...I don't think there's neat and precise word out there that describes it.

I don't know though. I use my imagination to debunk perspectives, and by doing so, to try and hone in on a truth. My imagination is like the snake eating itself, constantly questioning what it produces and then re-imagining it differently. It feeds off itself and can cause me to tune out reality or end up daydreaming and neglect my health. What it produces isn't so much a perspective as it is a warehouse of intuitions that I can play with and use, hopefully to get a fuller picture of the world and everyone in it. But I'm not looking to 'order' the world, but have an 'understanding' of it.

My intuition tells me everything is relative and kind of disallows actually having a perspective. The only times I really do have a perspective is if I use 'logic' because that can be followed and understood without relative interpretations and definitions. But I only believe the logic, insomuch as it is applicable to reality. For instance, in the US government, higher taxes were placed on the rich, starting this year. And reports are claiming that it isn't hurting the economy. If that's true, then something else is going on economically that doesn't follow from logic and my logical perspective becomes no more.

Ooo, sounds like fun. How does it work?

War's over. I'm not good at instigating. I was hoping you would.

Ne is perceiving information outwardly in an abstract fashion, used by INTPs to facilitate Ti, right?

Ni is perceiving information inwardly in an abstract fashion, used by ENTJs to facilitate Te.

Which one really sounds like it fosters imagination?

This is, more or less true; although Ne isn't limited to perceiving information outwardly as it is extroverted and will also create/impose new potentials for reality. ENTPs are often called "Inventors". ENFPs called the "Inspirers" (I'm assuming this is pretty much to mean they invent ways motivate people).

"Forming a perspective" isn't accomplished without the use of T. Ni is just "making connections" inwardly and is coupled best with Te to present the connections to the world in an objective fashion.

Right, but Ti forms perspectives too. This isn't limited to NiTe. The fact that Te is extroverted does mean that any perspective is changing with the current logical circumstances.

Ti being introverted on the other hand, tends to create its own universals, even if there is not much evidence for them and if there is no way to prove them absolutely.

What sounds more like "having a perspective" here?

Imagination (defined by Wikipedia) is the ability to form new images and sensations that are not perceived through sight, hearing, or other senses. Sounds like intuition, sure.

Agreed.

Elaborating, Wikipedia also says "it is a whole cycle of image formation or any sensation which may be described as "hidden" as it takes place without anyone else's knowledge." Ohh sounds more like Ni to me.

Well, anything that takes place without anyone else's knowledge is related to introversion, sure. I don't know what "it is a whole cycle of image formation or any sensation" is supposed to mean exactly though. I imagine all introverts deal with such things or they wouldn't be introverted. The question to me is "What kinds of images does each introvert play with?"

I think INTP imagination is slightly different, and probably skips over the auxiliary function most of the time. It's probably more like Ti/Si. Innovation/invention on the other hand, these deal directly with the outside world, absolutely requiring perception of external data. This is where Ne could step in and outshine Te, because Ne is powered by introspection (Ti-Si) while Te is powered by imagination (Ni-Fi).

You make it sound like Ni is simply imagining the world as they want to. It's not that simple. Introspection is introversion, whether you want to believe that or not.

Sorry, I wanted to take the side of INTP, but after compiling this wikidata, I have to side with Words. *this is part of how war works. now you have an ally.

War!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoBFhdeR9PE