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The Many Faces of INFJ

Saoshyant

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You would.
May I have your attention please?
May I have your attention please?
Will the real Slim Shady please stand up?
I repeat, will the real Slim Shady please stand up?
We're gonna have a problem here..
 

snafupants

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Saoshyan, are the numbers under your username your age?
 

XXXX

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Some Qs for you, Adymus:

Are/Is there other personality type(s) that you think are also particularly misunderstood by many and/or show such a diverse range of subtypes similar to INFJs?

Which personality type(s) do you think show the least variation in subtypes?

Do Ni-dom's in general seem to grasp the strongest use of their lower functions than other types?
 

Razare

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If you explain INFJ like that, I would agree that I may be one. The problem with explaining INFJ like that is that you are the only source which describes it as such. This makes it difficult to validate, other than using personal experiences.
 

Adymus

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Some Qs for you, Adymus:

Are/Is there other personality type(s) that you think are also particularly misunderstood by many and/or show such a diverse range of subtypes similar to INFJs?

Which personality type(s) do you think show the least variation in subtypes?

Do Ni-dom's in general seem to grasp the strongest use of their lower functions than other types?
Yes ENFPs would definitely fall into this umbrella as being almost as misunderstood as the INFJs, with also a good number of variations. And then INTJs also have quite a few variations as well. Also, when I say "variations" all I mean is they can potentially develop into models that don't really align with the current stereotypes. They are still using the same four cognitive functions in the same order, they have just learned to use them a little differently. ENTPs would also have a few outliers as well. Pretty much it is the dominant intuitive types that I think end up having the most variations and being the hardest to pin down. The reason for that is twofold: 1.) Both intuitive functions are some of the hardest to get environmental validation from, especially if growing up in a sensor heavy family or surrounded, that alone causes them to start developing lower functions pretty early on (Mainly the INFsJ and ENFPs, it is easier for INTJs and ENTPs to find validation from their Ni and Ne since it is used with Te and Ti respectively.)
2.) The nature of Ni is to create something original, something that has never been created before, and in the case of an Ni dom this would also mean an identity. This is why if you are looking for specific traits and interests, like the MBTI descriptions look for, you probably won't do very well in finding Ni doms.
I once heard Fullerene refer to Si doms as being like sponges as kids that eventually harden into bricks as adults, meaning their worldview, while past and history oriented, will be dependent on just that, their past and history. So you can't really expect them to all have the same opinions, because they don't all grow up the same way. Now personally I would change that statement to "They begin as little bricks as kids and grow into big bricks as adults", but the jist of it is accurate enough.
This factor is actually very similar in the Ni doms, not all Ni worldviews are going to end up the same, and since Ni is all original and not based in reality, you end up with some pretty unexpected and maybe even crazy worldviews. For instance, racism is almost always falsely associated with Si traditionalism, but I kid you not, I have actually seen INFJ skin heads before.


Least variation in type... Probably something like the ESTJ, generally the ones who get the most validation from their environment and have the least incentive to look beyond their top two functions. But nothing is set in stone, they all have the potential to have infinite variations.
 

Adymus

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If you explain INFJ like that, I would agree that I may be one. The problem with explaining INFJ like that is that you are the only source which describes it as such. This makes it difficult to validate, other than using personal experiences.
Right right right, the ol' credentials barrier, my eldest arch-nemesis.


Will say one thing though, If you truly believe that you are an Ni user, then you're Not an INTP. And if you truly believe you use both Ni and Ti, then you're probably an INFJ. Because not I, nor any of the actual INTPs on this forum have access to Ni. I wish I did because it sounds awesome, but I don't because that is just not one of my four consciously controlled functions, and because Si is already in it's place serving the same purpose it would have served.
 

Fallenman

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addy, when do you intend to write an article on the many faces of INTP's? I am curious to know if my personality is simply a subset of INTP's or if i'm perhaps another personality altogether. It can be so frustrating...
 

Adymus

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addy, when do you intend to write an article on the many faces of INTP's? I am curious to know if my personality is simply a subset of INTP's or if i'm perhaps another personality altogether. It can be so frustrating...
I'm going to have to postpone this for a little while, I have about eight or nine variations right now, but I don't have actual examples for all of them. I'd first like to find examples that I can thoroughly study so I can give a better analysis instead of just a speculation of how said variation should probably act in theory alone.
 

Dormouse

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I'm going to have to postpone this for a little while, I have about eight or nine variations right now, but I don't have actual examples for all of them. I'd first like to find examples that I can thoroughly study so I can give a better analysis instead of just a speculation of how said variation should probably act in theory alone.
I've been gone a month and this is still unfinished? :beatyou:
 

Auburn

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Give'm a break ;p

Poor addy-kun is being worked to the bone.. =/
 

Razare

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Alright, I'll agree I am an INFJ then. I still belong on this forum, though. I checked out the INFJ forum and yeah, they're not my crowd because they did not develop Ti. What makes me think you may be right is that I can do a lot of those variant personalities you describe in the INFJ. It wouldn't make sense for an INTP to do all that.

When I was a kid, I was a brilliant actor. Somehow, I got it in me that I would audition to play a french cook in like the 3rd grade play. Out of nowhere, I got up in front of everyone and pulled off a perfect french accent without ever practicing and won the audition.

Then after my childhood years, I think I just turned into the academic subtype and remained there ever since. I'm also occasionally the Guru, SP wannabe and the Gypsy King. You would be right about the Cobra being a defense mechanism; I use it at work with angry customers.

I would like to comment about the Gypsy King. I think you make it sound too negative. That ability can be used to help people too. In many cases, I can figure out a person after a couple brief interactions, but you can use that to understand them better and give them tidbits of advice when they need it. I see it as a tool to further relationships, not really for manipulating people. Usually, I keep my insights to myself, though... people need to figure themselves out, not have me do it for them.
 

y4r5xeym5

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Currently, INFJs make me go as follows: :storks:
I swear, the shit my aunt's been pulling the past two months is straight from the most poorly written soap opera ever conceived. D:

Not to offend those of you who are INFJ's of course. I'm sure you're less crazy than the ones I know. :angel:
 

BigApplePi

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Will say one thing though, If you truly believe that you are an Ni user, then you're Not an INTP. And if you truly believe you use both Ni and Ti, then you're probably an INFJ. Because not I, nor any of the actual INTPs on this forum have access to Ni. I wish I did because it sounds awesome, but I don't because that is just not one of my four consciously controlled functions, and because Si is already in it's place serving the same purpose it would have served.
Like everyone else Adymus, I am trying to make sense of this "temperament" division. I just question some of the details. You say you don't have access to Ni being an INTP. How do we determine this access? One of the characteristics of Ni is, quoting you,
"Prediction: Ni is always looking for implications of how the future will unfold. Ni types often find themselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. Because of this curious power that Ni users have, they tend to be seen as having a “psychic” or prophetic quality to them.

Visionary Drive: The sense of the future and the realizations that come from Ni have sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. The Ni user can hold the ideal future society or system within their Ni, and rigorously drive toward this goal to turn it into reality."
Would you say you have no future vision for how your special view of temperament should be taken by the general populace? Perhaps you are too modest.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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Currently, INFJs make me go as follows: :storks:
I swear, the shit my aunt's been pulling the past two months is straight from the most poorly written soap opera ever conceived. D:

Not to offend those of you who are INFJ's of course. I'm sure you're less crazy than the ones I know. :angel:
All of them are bat shit crazy. Not only are they bat shit crazy, they will destroy society through their idealism and their ability to sway other idealists. It is up to rationalists to put a stop to this madness.
 

y4r5xeym5

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All of them are bat shit crazy. Not only are they bat shit crazy, they will destroy society through their idealism and their ability to sway other idealists. It is up to rationals to put a stop to this madness.
My aunt has managed to run herself into a +$10k debt, get married, preggers, excommunicate herself from the family, and is in the process of losing her job, all of this being within the past two months. She's happy about it too, Huzzah! :storks:

Seriously, wtf INFJ's. :evil: :confused:
 

Adymus

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Like everyone else Adymus, I am trying to make sense of this "temperament" division. I just question some of the details. You say you don't have access to Ni being an INTP. How do we determine this access? One of the characteristics of Ni is, quoting you,
Would you say you have no future vision for how your special view of temperament should be taken by the general populace? Perhaps you are too modest.
The concept of Ni might still be foggy to you, but it is not to me. I have invested a lot of research into understanding what it is and how it works, at least as much as one can understand without actually using it themselves. So when I say that I don't use it, I'm not being modest, I know for a fact that it is not something that I have conscious use of. Ni is not simply thinking to yourself "I think it is going to rain tomorrow." or "If I do X then Y will happen."

It is more than just simply having an idea of some future implications, anyone can have at least some idea of how the future will unfold just from using Ni, Si, or Ne.

Visionary drive is literally holding an entire future map in your Ni, and knowing exactly what steps need to be taken to get there. And when I say "future" map it is not even necessarily something that will happen in the future, but a map of how things will unfold if certain measures at taken and certain events take place. This is only one of it's powers, it can do far more than this as well.

On top of that, one cannot have Ni without Se, and one cannot have Ni alone, it must be connect to another Extroverted judgment function.

I have an idea of how the general populace would take this theory, but I don't have a complete vision of the world that it will create and where it will go from there, that is something I would need Ni for.
 

Adymus

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All of them are bat shit crazy. Not only are they bat shit crazy, they will destroy society through their idealism and their ability to sway other idealists. It is up to rationals to put a stop to this madness.
If it wasn't for the INFJs, we'd probably still be living in caves right now.

Let them do their thing, they have been doing it for as long as we have existed, and it is has worked out pretty well so far.
 

Reluctantly

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All of them are bat shit crazy. Not only are they bat shit crazy, they will destroy society through their idealism and their ability to sway other idealists. It is up to rationals to put a stop to this madness.
You made me lol with that last line. Thanks. And I don't mean this derogatorily.
 

BigApplePi

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I knew/know an INxJ who was absolutely baffling. She was charistmatic, visionary, brilliant. When she came on the bulletin board she took over. I tried to question her. She spun long yarns but when I tried to question, she would have none of it. I played along as long as I could, she explaining but there was no analyzing her. She was spellbinding -- wool over my eyes -- I had to believe her until I stepped back .... way back.

Come to think of it, Lyra could be a younger version of her.

Added: Part of the story is she was psychic. Was hired to find missing persons and claimed success. I wanted to set up an experiment to test her. I had a carefully planned double blind thing I thought out and either emailed her or posted it. After all her claims, she refused. Claimed not to trust me or it was too much trouble for her. I was hot on the logic of proving psychic ability one way or another and thought I had something. She had me fooled for awhile.
 
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cheese

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The concept of Ni might still be foggy to you, but it is not to me. I have invested a lot of research into understanding what it is and how it works, at least as much as one can understand without actually using it themselves. So when I say that I don't use it, I'm not being modest, I know for a fact that it is not something that I have conscious use of. Ni is not simply thinking to yourself "I think it is going to rain tomorrow." or "If I do X then Y will happen."

It is more than just simply having an idea of some future implications, anyone can have at least some idea of how the future will unfold just from using Ni, Si, or Ne.

Visionary drive is literally holding an entire future map in your Ni, and knowing exactly what steps need to be taken to get there. And when I say "future" map it is not even necessarily something that will happen in the future, but a map of how things will unfold if certain measures at taken and certain events take place. This is only one of it's powers, it can do far more than this as well.

On top of that, one cannot have Ni without Se, and one cannot have Ni alone, it must be connect to another Extroverted judgment function.

I have an idea of how the general populace would take this theory, but I don't have a complete vision of the world that it will create and where it will go from there, that is something I would need Ni for.
So good, long-term trolls are generally Ni users? No wonder I never quite got how they did what they did (aside from mental lack). This also confirms to about 99% certainty that I am not an INFJ. This sort of long-range prediction and planning is a complete mystery to me, to the point where I doubted it was possible. I guess I'll just fall back on suckitude then. God, why do INTPs even exist? I've long since thought my sole purpose on earth might be to serve as a negative example/provide cushioning for others' fall. I'm only sharing this personal information to lure you into my hidden Ni trap though. Hunting deer and seeking meaning and all that. Greek gods. Skewered babies. Profundity, that is. By reading alone you have fallen into my lair, hahaha!!! *cries silently in dungeon*
 

BigApplePi

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cheese. INTPs only look at reality saying what it is. INxJ's DO something about it.
 

cheese

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Agree with you there, Pi... incidentally I'd like a big slab of you heated up in the microwave and topped with ice-cream. Oh momma yes.
 

BigApplePi

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Agree with you there, Pi... incidentally I'd like a big slab of you heated up in the microwave and topped with ice-cream. Oh momma yes.
1/6 pi are squared comin' rite up.
 

Razare

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I'm beginning to understand why INFJ is the rarest type, especially for males. It's not rare at all, there's just tons of them going around thinking they are INTP's, INFP's, or INTJ's because they'll never test right.

Even knowing I am an INFJ, I took the test again and still scored INTP, even when trying to answer a little bit more F about things. I just don't think the tests captures how an INFJ responds. Once our Ti kicks in, we start relying on that to such a degree that it acts like one of the top two functions. Because ultimately, INFJ's have a choice to stubbornly adhere to their value systems and how they feel, or use logic to reassess their values. A more mature INFJ will probably use logic to some degree and learn to respect the tactical restraint it gives them over their emotions, and how it can improve their value systems.
 

The Lurker

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What a fascinating read, and I deeply regret not reading it sooner. I'm actually doubting my own labelling of myself as an INTP, if only because I came to the stark realization that I really haven't educated myself nearly enough on MBTI. In fact after reading several descriptions of Ne and Ni, and reflecting on my mannerisms, past and present, I've determined that I actually use Ni a lot more than Ne, and that lately I've been pretty heavily suppressing (if not "denying") my Fe, the reasons for which are unclear to me right now. If this is true, then this answers a lot of burning questions I've had about myself that I foolishly dismissed as quirks, perhaps more out of me wanting to be an INTP for whatever reason, rather than actually being one.

I still have much to read, and I still have doubts to quell. But I thank you for writing this and spurring me to dig deeper. The feeling of this is...palpable.
 

IndigoSensor

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I knew/know an INxJ who was absolutely baffling. She was charistmatic, visionary, brilliant. When she came on the bulletin board she took over. I tried to question her. She spun long yarns but when I tried to question, she would have none of it. I played along as long as I could, she explaining but there was no analyzing her. She was spellbinding -- wool over my eyes -- I had to believe her until I stepped back .... way back.

Come to think of it, Lyra could be a younger version of her.

Added: Part of the story is she was psychic. Was hired to find missing persons and claimed success. I wanted to set up an experiment to test her. I had a carefully planned double blind thing I thought out and either emailed her or posted it. After all her claims, she refused. Claimed not to trust me or it was too much trouble for her. I was hot on the logic of proving psychic ability one way or another and thought I had something. She had me fooled for awhile.
That's pretty typical. While I can't explain it really, I completely understand why she did what she did. I do not know her so it is possible she could have been a charleton of sorts.

Also, no psychic I know, not a single one (and I know many) will stand up to such challenges. I empathzise why as well. Psychic matters are extremely inexact and simply do not stand up to logic and physical reality. It never will. However to those involved it does work enough to have a reliable faith placed in it. The reason psychic abillites are often stereotypes to be like Ni is because it actually does reflect the process of Ni. Getting from point A to point B with no trace or reason to why or how it got there. It simply can't be proven.

From my point of view an INFJ will never stand up to a challenge unless they know with absolute certainty that they will surmount it. That's part of the reason they are so conflict avoidant.
 

Thoughtful Tom

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Visionary drive is literally holding an entire future map in your Ni, and knowing exactly what steps need to be taken to get there. And when I say "future" map it is not even necessarily something that will happen in the future, but a map of how things will unfold if certain measures at taken and certain events take place. This is only one of it's powers, it can do far more than this as well.
Trying to get a handle on Ni vs. Ne (which I presumably have). The power of Ne, as I perceive it, is to walk into a room and KNOW exactly what to say, what to do, how a person is feeling, which (often counter-intuitive) action/words will help the person you are with, or move your agenda forward.

As I have gained in life experience, I find I am at my best when I give in to my intuition, without question. Although I still sometimes fall flat, it occurs much less frequently than when I silence my intuition. Perhaps the "E" provides the bias towards action?
 

Cavallier

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Eek, lots of stuff to dig into here...

I'm beginning to understand why INFJ is the rarest type, especially for males. It's not rare at all, there's just tons of them going around thinking they are INTP's, INFP's, or INTJ's because they'll never test right.

Even knowing I am an INFJ, I took the test again and still scored INTP, even when trying to answer a little bit more F about things. I just don't think the tests captures how an INFJ responds. Once our Ti kicks in, we start relying on that to such a degree that it acts like one of the top two functions. Because ultimately, INFJ's have a choice to stubbornly adhere to their value systems and how they feel, or use logic to reassess their values. A more mature INFJ will probably use logic to some degree and learn to respect the tactical restraint it gives them over their emotions, and how it can improve their value systems.
I wonder if perhaps the ability and willingness to look at who we are, our personality and our reactions to external stimuli, without looking for what we want to be is an important aspect of not only accurately typing ourselves but also of growing/advancing personally.

Of all the INFJ's I've known only one was able to actually see herself instead of seeing what she wanted to be. Even then it was only after a life full of heartache based on refusing to accept who she really was.

I knew/know an INxJ who was absolutely baffling. She was charistmatic, visionary, brilliant. When she came on the bulletin board she took over. I tried to question her. She spun long yarns but when I tried to question, she would have none of it. I played along as long as I could, she explaining but there was no analyzing her. She was spellbinding -- wool over my eyes -- I had to believe her until I stepped back .... way back.

Come to think of it, Lyra could be a younger version of her.

Added: Part of the story is she was psychic. Was hired to find missing persons and claimed success. I wanted to set up an experiment to test her. I had a carefully planned double blind thing I thought out and either emailed her or posted it. After all her claims, she refused. Claimed not to trust me or it was too much trouble for her. I was hot on the logic of proving psychic ability one way or another and thought I had something. She had me fooled for awhile.
I can always tell when I'm in the presence of an INFJ because my Bullshit radar goes off. Do you ever have that suspicious feeling where you narrow your eyes and focus your entire attention to a single person/object? I feel that way when around most INFJs.

I knew one who was really good at hiding (both from herself and others) her real motives for her actions. She was a kind and loving person but she wasn't very honest with herself about her emotions. When angry she diverted her anger into passive aggressive acts. Later she would realize that she was angry and that she had acted unfairly toward her friends. She would swear to herself that she'd be a better person in the future. And amazingly she would actually follow through with this commitment. The unfortunate thing is she would only have these epiphanies after she had completely alienated herself from everybody. Her former friends no longer trusted her and refused to accept her back into their fold.


If it wasn't for the INFJs, we'd probably still be living in caves right now.

Let them do their thing, they have been doing it for as long as we have existed, and it is has worked out pretty well so far.
Sure, they inspired us all to organize and better our living conditions but then the rationals had to put down all those Holy Wars they started.
 

ckm

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I can always tell when I'm in the presence of an INFJ because my Bullshit radar goes off.]Do you ever have that suspicious feeling where you narrow your eyes and focus your entire attention to a single person/object? I feel that way when around most INFJs.
I really couldn't agree more. For some reason, sharp Ni (usually with Fe) repulses me and I instantly feel that the source is pretentious and not authentic in the slightest. I wish I understood why, for I know I'm biased and yet still feel violently opposed to most words that come from an INFJ's mouth.
 

Fukyo

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I really couldn't agree more. For some reason, sharp Ni (usually with Fe) repulses me and I instantly feel that the source is pretentious and not authentic in the slightest. I wish I understood why, for I know I'm biased and yet still feel violently opposed to most words that come from an INFJ's mouth.
I don't know if this is because I've dealt with quite a few NFJs, but I can usually sniff them out from afar. Actually Fe in general.

I think INTP's Fe has this passive sensitivity to Fe in others and spots it easily, and there's definitely that element of wariness of varying degrees.

I suspect there's a similar trend with other functions in this regard, though.
 

IndigoSensor

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I really couldn't agree more. For some reason, sharp Ni (usually with Fe) repulses me and I instantly feel that the source is pretentious and not authentic in the slightest. I wish I understood why, for I know I'm biased and yet still feel violently opposed to most words that come from an INFJ's mouth.
I think I can explain why. A lot of this appears to come from a lack of understanding. Also from experience leading to dislike. For one Ni will appear very alien to INTP's, and will likely feel like a violation of their Ne processes. This is because while Ne is traceable, and it is something you readily do with Ti, Ni is not traceable. I can assure you that the vast majority of INFJ's do not have large egos, and usually try to suppress any form of an ego. Not all of them are like this, but most are.

The feeling that it is not authentic is because your Ti will not be able to derive a pattern from it. As you do not see one, that is then intepreted as someone talking out of their ass. While it is certainly not out of the question that an INFJ could do this, the vast majority of them don't. INFJ's really strongly strive for authenticity, for them to break this is a violation of their persona and that is a huge no no. You have to understand that INFJ's are not going to use cut and dry logic and reason in the way you do. Just because something can't be broken down and explained via those pathways, does not mean it is inauthentic.
 

Adymus

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Sure, they inspired us all to organize and better our living conditions but then the rationals had to put down all those Holy Wars they started.
Behind any ideological war you will find all personalities fighting on both sides, INFJs Vs INFJs, Rationals vs Rationals, etc. It is not us against them, it is us against us.
Ultimately all personalities are important and crucial to the survival, expansion, and advancement of the human collective. The bloodshed that occurs in between is a single negative side effect to an otherwise extremely important mechanism in human evolution.
 

Adymus

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I can assure you that the vast majority of INFJ's do not have large egos, and usually try to suppress any form of an ego. Not all of them are like this, but most are.
While I agree with everything else you said, I gotta check you on this one.

It's not just INFJs but Ni doms in general, when you have an expansive worldview that sees the "bigger picture" more than anyone else (or so you think), it is really easy for them to let that go to their head.
Now maybe you don't have a big ego Indy, and maybe a very large number of Ni doms don't have big egos, but it is not exactly out of character for them when they do, it is actually right up their alley.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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There are 1 enfj and 2 infj females and 1 infj male in my subjects (they may not be in my degree). I must say they advocate the most fundamentally flawed ideas that has ever graced my ears. They lack foresight into the true ramifications of their proclamations due to little understanding of the subject at hand and basic economics theory. When they are proclaiming the room hangs off their every word; seduced by the language of warmth and passion. They seem to be masters of inclusive body language.

Who will reap the most benefit out of their propositions? Themselves. Who will bare burden of cost and loss of surplus value? Society.

I can not bare th masses being deluded so it is my duty to provide continuous rebuttal. I am just glad that I have spent most of my youth researching and reading to have such a large knowledge bank and understanding of theory.
 

dreamoftheunknown

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Behind any ideological war you will find all personalities fighting on both sides, INFJs Vs INFJs, Rationals vs Rationals, etc. It is not us against them, it is us against us.
Amen to that. I see it every single day. [Hell, that's what physics is - an institutionalized global ideological war of Rationals vs Rationals. Though, some of us draw great amusement out of it. ;) On second thought, screw physics. That's all of academia.] Great thread, by the way. You seriously had me debating whether I'm an INFJ (or maybe INTJ) for a while. But by the time I got to the end, I realized that there's no effing way - I'm not nearly that sly. Nor do I have this entire map in my head mapping out how everything is _supposed_ to be (Geez! That's effing insane...to the point of being effing awesome!).

But you just cleared up a major mystery for me. I had this "friend" in college who everyone loved...except me. I couldn't stand her. She was, perhaps, the most manipulative person I had ever encountered. And she was so full of shit that you could smell it a mile away. So, for the life of me, I couldn't understand why no one else did. I will admit, though, she even got to me, once. She managed to get me to admit to something very personal, and not a few hours later, she used it against me. I called her out on it, but not surprisingly, I ended up being the one to look like an ass. Supposedly, she tested as either INTP or INFP, but I had always found that claim dubious. Now, I know. Effing cobra.
 

cheese

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The bullshit-meter - definitely. I think it may be as Indigo said though - because we personally can't trace their conclusions back to premises using our methods, we dismiss them. Which is probably flawed on our part. On the other hand, their tunnel vision is even more restricted than ours, which makes reasoning more difficult.

Now I'm sort of worried actually. I recognise a lot of the bad stuff mentioned above. Crap, does this mean I'm INFJ? I was hoping it just meant my Ti disapproved of the compromising positions Fe chose to put it in. If I am though, I've got to be the worst one around, because I don't seem to have conscious use of those crazy-ass Ni powers though. Man, dreamoftheunknown keeps doling out these awesome stories. I don't think I've ever met any of these fascinating personalities. Well, once maybe. Actually my father's one. And maybe a couple of others sprinkled throughout my life. But nobody with superpowers of that magnitude. Just everyday sort of sneakiness. Perhaps I'm just bad at reading people.
 

Cavallier

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I think I can explain why. A lot of this appears to come from a lack of understanding. Also from experience leading to dislike. For one Ni will appear very alien to INTP's, and will likely feel like a violation of their Ne processes. This is because while Ne is traceable, and it is something you readily do with Ti, Ni is not traceable. I can assure you that the vast majority of INFJ's do not have large egos, and usually try to suppress any form of an ego. Not all of them are like this, but most are.

The feeling that it is not authentic is because your Ti will not be able to derive a pattern from it. As you do not see one, that is then interpreted as someone talking out of their ass. While it is certainly not out of the question that an INFJ could do this, the vast majority of them don't. INFJ's really strongly strive for authenticity, for them to break this is a violation of their persona and that is a huge no no. You have to understand that INFJ's are not going to use cut and dry logic and reason in the way you do. Just because something can't be broken down and explained via those pathways, does not mean it is inauthentic.

This is an interesting insight and I thank you for it. I'm always trying to better understand the INFJ POV. I wish Snowqueen was around. She'd help out with this as well.

I don't think most INFJs are talking out of their ass. I agree that authenticity is important to them. It is because of this that I find a dichotomy in their attempt at authenticity and how they see themselves. I get the feeling that they don't know themselves as much as they think they do. I guess it's a matter of intent. I don't think that most INFJs "talk out of their ass" intentionally. They do it without realizing it. I stumble over the notion that they don't seem to know what they want. Then again the INFJs I've known may have simply been rather underdeveloped. I joke around but I don't actually think poorly of INFJs. Also, I think I've described the human condition. I just get frustrated if the INFJ demands and idolizes authenticity when that same INFJ can't be true to themself.

Though...I've had one who hated me thoroughly because he believed I was hiding my true feelings. What he didn't realize was that most INTPs are direct and uncomplicated. I had nothing to hide. He kept looking for ulterior motives that didn't exist. I have to admit that this interaction left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm trying to not be too prejudiced. ;)
 

Cavallier

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cheddar said:
because we personally can't trace their conclusions back to premises using our methods, we dismiss them. Which is probably flawed on our part.
I have definitely been guilty of this but it's an issue I dealt with years ago. It's become a "I don't understand but whatever makes you happy" sort of set up. :storks:
 

cheese

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I have definitely been guilty of this but it's an issue I dealt with years ago. It's become a "I don't understand but whatever makes you happy" sort of set up. :storks:
("dealt with years ago" and ":storks:" make a very bad couple.)


Yeah, it's not something we can easily accept, and tbh I'm not sure if we even should. Maybe it's just bullshit, plain and simple. But then it seems more likely that we're limited than not, so I'll just go with that. Er, maybe. Cue storks.
 

Cavallier

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Heh. "Dealt with" as in "gave up".
 

IndigoSensor

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This is an interesting insight and I thank you for it. I'm always trying to better understand the INFJ POV. I wish Snowqueen was around. She'd help out with this as well.

I don't think most INFJs are talking out of their ass. I agree that authenticity is important to them. It is because of this that I find a dichotomy in their attempt at authenticity and how they see themselves. I get the feeling that they don't know themselves as much as they think they do. I guess it's a matter of intent. I don't think that most INFJs "talk out of their ass" intentionally. They do it without realizing it. I stumble over the notion that they don't seem to know what they want. Then again the INFJs I've known may have simply been rather underdeveloped. I joke around but I don't actually think poorly of INFJs. Also, I think I've described the human condition. I just get frustrated if the INFJ demands and idolizes authenticity when that same INFJ can't be true to themself.

Though...I've had one who hated me thoroughly because he believed I was hiding my true feelings. What he didn't realize was that most INTPs are direct and uncomplicated. I had nothing to hide. He kept looking for ulterior motives that didn't exist. I have to admit that this interaction left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm trying to not be too prejudiced. ;)
An undeveloped INFJ is a scary sight. The problem with them, as you pointed out, is they will be completely unaware of their problems, because they think they are aware of it. Hindsight is 20/20, and that usually is what snaps them out of things. Ni actually needs to step away from things and be independent to function correctly. As a hurt or undeveloped INFJ will never do that, their Ni will simply run a muck and never get linear conclusions or insights. Ni works badly on it's own. It needs a little Se to run smoothly. An undeveloped INFJ will often get stuck, and roll everything into Fe and or Ti (the cycle never completes). As Fe thinks it knows best at all times, and Ni pulls crap out of nowhere, the individual will think they are god in a sense. This is a beast to deal with in the relationship department.

I'm an administrator over on the INFJ forums and I have seen a lot of people roll through there. The undeveloped ones are just sad. They can be downright crazy and reject anything and everything because their Fe feels they are right, it knows it. As such, anything presented to the contrary is thought of as wrong insantenously, and will then be twisted to fit their paradigm. It is done in such a way that you can't even show them what they did, without twisting it again. The good thing is, is that INFJ's often only have casual casulties. I.E. They only will harm you if you willingly get involved with them. Using T on an undeveloped F type simply does not work. Although Fe and Fi will react much differently. Personally I think Fi reacting is far worse. Fi can get extremely vengeful. Fe can as well, but its easier to deal with.

Also, its normal for people to have types they just don't like. I personally have a ravishing distaste for INFP's. It's a large generalizaition, but that type simply will drive me batshit crazy (and it is such irony that you can't even say you dislike INFP's without them attacking you and in the process backing up all the reasons for disliking them in the first place. It is such sweet irony), so don't feel bad for not liking them. I think people usually internally assume that when they say they dislike a type, they dislike the bad versions of that type. Proof positive; one of my best friends is INFP.
 

axemblack

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Not sure if this will be relevant but I have recently been questioning my own type and it seems that INFJ is most likely what I am. I identify very strongly with Ti and not so much with Fe, which is why I think I test as INTP. It bothers me a little that so many people here have bad experiences with INFJs, which it seems comes from the INFJs having crappy Ti. Ti seems to constantly make you question yourself and your logic, so it would make sense that INFJs with weak Ti would be manipulative and misguided without realizing it. Which is not to say I have no flaws, I believe I can see in myself the bad traits of the INFJ (I just hope I'm not wrong about my type and then have my actions towards development proved pointless because I was wrong in my funcitons).

Although I know there is no direct evidence here proving I can use Ti well, perhaps it can be taken on faith (lol) and so provide some insubstantial anecdote regarding an INFJ who is not completely feeling oriented and manipulative, or failing all else perhaps it could bring some form of entertainment regarding yet another misguided INFJ.
 

dreamoftheunknown

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The bullshit-meter - definitely. I think it may be as Indigo said though - because we personally can't trace their conclusions back to premises using our methods, we dismiss them.
I've always been rather baffled about the way people think (including me, but that's a different story). I believe someone said in another thread that that feeling is more like a fast way of thinking. Couple that with intuition, and it's no surprise that INFJ's (or other NF's, for that matter) can warp from one place to another light years away. It used to drive me crazy (still kind of does), but nowadays I just chalk it up to the fact that not everyone has to have this logical structure in which everything fits. Sounds like a dismissal, I suppose, but I actually take it as one of the variables in my dealings with other people.

Now I'm sort of worried actually. I recognise a lot of the bad stuff mentioned above. Crap, does this mean I'm INFJ? I was hoping it just meant my Ti disapproved of the compromising positions Fe chose to put it in.
As in you can't bullshit a bullshitter? Yeah, I thought about that, too. ;)

Man, dreamoftheunknown keeps doling out these awesome stories. I don't think I've ever met any of these fascinating personalities.
I live in interesting times full of interesting people.
 

Sparrow

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Everybody and their mother is an INFJ now.
 
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